Saying Ya Hussein?

[IloveImamHussain]

It's amazing how you chose to address only a tiny portion of my post and ignored the rest which already answers the argument you're trying to make.

You have never answered anything satisfactorily.

You make assertions and claim they are logical when there is not a shred of logic in your statements.

You have floundered badly in your multiple attempts to show us as Mushrikeen.

Your weapons are spam, spam and more spam, accompanied by a style that is offensive and arrogant.

[BintAlHoda]

It's amazing how you chose to address only a tiny portion of my post and ignored the rest which already answers the argument you're trying to make.

well to be honest i didnt consider the rest of it worth answering, sorry dont mean to be rude myself

i dont find ur arguments convincing. maybe they r convincing 2 u but they dont work for me. u can try harder if u want

but what i am meaning to say with the above is, tawassul is not the pillar of shi'i islam. the main beliefs that separate shi'i islam from sunni islam are 'adalah (justice of god) and imamate (accepting the imams as the primary leaders chosen by god, rather than just as great scholars and great men).

then in fiqh we have aql (usage of intellect in deriving fiqh).

those are the big issues - tawassul is a very side issue that is not essential to the madhhab. of course if you want to talk about it fine but u should recognize that most of the 'why shi'i islam is wrong' posts that we get here are on relatively minor issues and not the fundamentals. why not talk about the fundamentals instead?

[IloveImamHussain]

tawassul is a very side issue that is not essential to the madhhab.

It may be a side issue but it does not make one a Mushrik. It is acceptabe in Shia islam.

[individualist]

@ BintAlhoda

really? who came up with that idea?

what about the attributes of God? we express various attributes of god. some of us are merciful, some of us are just, some of us are creative. of course we do not express these LIKE God does....... but it is an aspect of god in which we share. is that shirk? ?

Strawman.

What I meant was praying is ONLY HIS so if I pray to someone to pray on my behalf then I'm giving a tiny part of what is ONLY HIS to the person I'm praying to... this is an example of Shirk.

Shirk by equating others with God is the worst type of shirk...

Learn the basics please.

do u think catholic belief has stayed the same since 7th century AD and christians haven't thought any more about doctrine?

Are you saying that back then they did more than pray for intercession? But the Catholic doctorine has been fixed since 300 AD.

it is very simplistic to say that the catholic example of false worship is given in the quran... quran refers to christians in general and some aspects of christianity

Christians in general, 1400 years ago were predominantly Catholics.

but there is really no compelling reason why i need to study Catholicism to be a good muslim, sheesh! otherwise i would need to study all the ahlul kitab includng jews, zoroastrans, sabeans, and the polytheists, religion of firawn, religion of people of lut, etc, because they were all examples given in teh quran

You misunderstood me... I'm urging you to study a tiny bit about Catholicism to see how your prayer for intercessin is the same exact thing they do.

in any case, no one is asking saints for intercession here, so it's all good.

Again with the laughably weak justification.

Are you saying that asking anyone other than the designated intercessors, to pray on our behalf is shirk? yes/no?

Note that if you say yes, then you are *AUTMOATICALLY* admitting that God chose to share something that is only His with the designated intercessors and no one else... i.e. by answering the above question with yes, you are admitting that calling out to the designated intercessors is Halal Shirk! While calling out to anyone else is Haram shirk! Which of course doesn't make any sense... I have already debunked the argument for permissibility of calling upon "designated" intercessors, only, in post # 133.

anyway as i must have said somewhere above people are free............ there is no obligaton on shia people to practice tawassul or even to believe in it, it is something people take from hadith and will accept or not accept. i personally accept it as do most shia people i know but if someone doesnt it is their free choice and we should be true to what we feel is correct

Of course people are free to believe whatever they want including believing in no God at all.

[BintAlHoda]

It's amazing how you chose to address only a tiny portion of my post and ignored the rest which already answers the argument you're trying to make.

however, i'll continue my limited response..... you said that sharing anything with god is shirk....... what about death? who brings death? Allah is al-mumeet.

and yet who takes the soul? He gives that job to the angel of death/malak al mawt. and not only that, but He makes apparent causes for death (like murder, accidents, illnesses, etc).

like i said, it's all about the unseen

[individualist]

@ BintAlHoda

well to be honest i didnt consider the rest of it worth answering, sorry dont mean to be rude myself

I don't view political incorrectness as rudeness, except the rest of my post adressed points youraised in your response to me, pretending I didn't already address them.

i dont find ur arguments convincing. maybe they r convincing 2 u but they dont work for me. u can try harder if u want

Oh, you think I'm trying to convince *you*? No, Miss. I'm writing for the benifit of the neutral reader. I know you are beyond hope.

but what i am meaning to say with the above is, tawassul is not the pillar of shi'i islam. the main beliefs that separate shi'i islam from sunni islam are 'adalah (justice of god) and imamate (accepting the imams as the primary leaders chosen by god, rather than just as great scholars and great men).

And I'm only concerned with tawasul. [justice of God? Sunnis too believe God is just, of course].

then in fiqh we have aql (usage of intellect in deriving fiqh).

side issue.

those are the big issues - tawassul is a very side issue that is not essential to the madhhab. of course if you want to talk about it fine but u should recognize that most of the 'why shi'i islam is wrong' posts that we get here are on relatively minor issues and not the fundamentals. why not talk about the fundamentals instead?

So far the fundamentals to me are side issues... so what if Shia have their own Fiqh? Or if they elieve in the right of leadership of Imams, etc... As long as their worship is ALL to God alone, no one should really care what else they believe.

[iraqi_shia]

What I meant was praying is ONLY HIS so if I pray to someone to pray on my behalf then I'm giving a tiny part of what is ONLY HIS to the person I'm praying to... this is an example of Shirk.

Who is praying to anyone?

We only pray to Allah, you keep making this false statement. This is the foundation of your confusion.

For example, if I work really hard for my mum, and answer all her shouts etc, Im doing this because Allah has commanded it, not becuase Im a mushrik serving my mother as if she is a God.

For shirk to be confirmed, someone would need to think something is independant of Allahs power.

[BintAlHoda]

^ all i can do is respond to what u write literally. if i misunderstand ur meaning u need to write clearer. i can't refute an argument that is not communicated properly. i understood that u said 'sharing anything with god' so i refuted it. if u mean something else plz be more specific

Are you saying that back then they did more than pray for intercession? But the Catholic doctorine has been fixed since 300 AD.

Christians have debated doctrinal and philosophical issues for centuries, that much I am aware of. The Council of Nicaea was not an end-all.

You misunderstood me... I'm urging you to study a tiny bit about Catholicism to see how your prayer for intercessin is the same exact thing they do.

ok i confess i do know a tiny bit but i dont claim to have great comprehensive knowledge

i dont think its the same

Are you saying that asking anyone other than the designated intercessors, to pray on our behalf is shirk? yes/no?

Note that if you say yes, then you are *AUTMOATICALLY* admitting that God chose to share something that is only His with the designated intercessors and no one else... i.e. by answering the above question with yes, you are admitting that calling out to the designated intercessors is Halal Shirk! While calling out to anyone else is Haram shirk! Which of course doesn't make any sense... I have already debunked the argument for permissibility of calling upon "designated" intercessors, only, in post # 133.

as far as i am concerned, the imams are designated intercessors through hadith. therefore, in my view

a ) god made the prophet and imams designated intercessors via hadith (which shii people use obvously not urself, but i have the right to accept whatever hadith i feel are authentic)

b ) i follow the hadith (that i believe are authentic sunnah)

ergo c ) i'm not a mushrik

now maybe my informaton in part a is wrong.... but that's just a textual problem..... it doesn't make it shirk, b/c i am still following god

as for asking intercession from 'non-designated people'.... well this is not a shii belief but i made a compelling argument that it's not shirk, it's just pointless. however if u want to call it shirk, that's ur decision... because it is not related to our discussion.... our discussion relates to what i mentioned above

Of course people are free to believe whatever they want including believing in no God at all.

on that note, may i remind u again that it's god's job ultimately to tell us who is mushrik and he will inform us of what we have done and become when we reach the next world

[IloveImamHussain]

Learn the basics please.

Yes, BintAlHuda, this guy is here to teach you the basics.

How come you don't want to learn ?

He parades an extraordinary knowledge of the Quran and of metahysics.

And at one point, when I presented to him the story of the Mubahela, he rejected it as a fabrication.

When someone else told him it was true, he recanted and then lo and behold, without listening to further arguments, claimed it meant nothing special.

Because he never listens to the arguments of others.

Just wants others to listen to him.

And that is how well he knows the Quran.

Zilch !

[individualist]

however, i'll continue my limited response..... you said that sharing anything with god is shirk....... what about death? who brings death? Allah is al-mumeet.

and yet who takes the soul? He gives that job to the angel of death/malak al mawt. and not only that, but He makes apparent causes for death (like murder, accidents, illnesses, etc).

like i said, it's all about the unseen

that was a GIGANTIC strawman! I was talking about sharing some of the practices that SLAVES perform in worship of God.

Learn the basics please.

Anyway, what's this talk about angel of death, etc.. All these are slaves of God acting as servants of God... God could achieve anything by words, but He employs angels as servants because a King must have servants..

Yes, BintAlHuda, this guy is here to teach you the basics.

How come you don't want to learn ?

He parades an extraordinary knowledge of the Quran and of metahysics.

And at one point, when I presented to him the story of the Mubahela, he rejected it as a fabrication.

When someone else told him it was true, he recanted and then lo and behold, without listening to further arguments, claimed it meant nothing special.

Because he never listens to the arguments of others.

Just wants others to listen to him.

And that is how well he knows the Quran.

Zilch !

That was a very dishonest retelling of what happened.

I STILL don't care for any accounts that contradict Quran, the only difference is that I thought that Sunnis didn't believe in the account of Mubahala, but someone proved me wrong (that Sunnis do believe in this account as well).

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[IloveImamHussain]

That was a very dishonest retelling of what happened.

You are talking nonsense and you know it. Just go back and review the posts.

But I will let Bintalhuda deal with you.

I am out of here.

I have little time for you and your ilk.

YA ALI ADRIKNI MAULA

YA ALI AGHITHNI

[individualist]

@ BintAlHoda

Christians have debated doctrinal and philosophical issues for centuries, that much I am aware of. The Council of Nicaea was not an end-all.

these debates were/are across different sects.

as for asking intercession from 'non-designated people'.... well this is not a shii belief but i made a compelling argument that it's not shirk, it's just pointless. however if u want to call it shirk, that's ur decision... because it is not related to our discussion.... our discussion relates to what i mentioned above

Ok. Thanks for giving a straight answer... Amazingly, you are the only one here who agrees to answer yes/no questions.

So, according to you, if I call upon Al-Hawariun (Jesus deciples) to pray on my behalf, then it is NOT shirk, only useless.

Thanks.

on that note, may i remind u again that it's god's job ultimately to tell us who is mushrik and he will inform us of what we have done and become when we reach the next world

That's true, but we are discussing actions... we are not naming people.

You are talking nonsense and you know it. Just go back and review the posts.

But I will let Bintalhuda deal with you.

I am out of here.

I have little time for you and your ilk.

YA ALI ADRIKNI MAULA

YA ALI AGHITHNI

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk...

Now, I'm sure even a lot of your Shia friends disagree with your last two sentences... you are not only praying to Ali to pray on your behalf... you are praying to Ali to act for you... Tsk, Tsk.

But Wait! So what if you asked Ali to act for you? If Ali was here and I was in trouble and asked him to help me, then it's 100% OK.... Hmmmm? Maybe it's argument of calling upon the unseen, again...

two keywords: *ask* ... *unseen*... those two are required in any equation for shirk by way of prayer.

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[PeaceLoving]

Now, I'm sure even a lot of your Shia friends disagree with your last two sentences

Shias do that all the time.

As for you, you have been spamming in a lot of threads spread across several forums trying to prove that Shias are Mushrikeen. And so far, you have failed miserably.

[individualist]

Who is praying to anyone?

We only pray to Allah, you keep making this false statement. This is the foundation of your confusion.

For example, if I work really hard for my mum, and answer all her shouts etc, Im doing this because Allah has commanded it, not becuase Im a mushrik serving my mother as if she is a God.

For shirk to be confirmed, someone would need to think something is independant of Allahs power.

Dear Iraqi,

Please check out my response to your friend ILoveImamHussein.

Shias do that all the time.

As for you, you have been spamming in a lot of threads spread across several forums trying to prove that Shias are Mushrikeen. And so far, you have failed miserably.

I'm a spammer?! :cry:

But I thought spammers are those who copy/paste walls of text that is entirely not their own work!

[PeaceLoving]

I'm a spammer?!

Yes, you are.

But I thought spammers are those who copy/paste walls of text that is entirely not their own work!

My dictionary describes spam as "unwanted email, usually advertisements".

[PeaceLoving]

two keywords: *ask* ... *unseen*... those two are required in any equation for shirk by way of prayer.

That may be your understanding of SHIRK, not ours.

[BintAlHoda]

that was a GIGANTIC strawman! I was talking about sharing some of the practices that SLAVES perform in worship of God.

ok i think i get it now

so.... the SLAVES perform sajdah in worship of god. are you saying that prophet yusuf's family were mushriks?

[Yusufali 12:100] And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said: "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Learn the basics please.

basics #1: one counterexample disproves a point!

I STILL don't care for any accounts that contradict Quran, the only difference is that I thought that Sunnis didn't believe in the account of Mubahala, but someone proved me wrong (that Sunnis do believe in this account as well).

there is an ayah about mubahilah in the quran, i'm sure it was posted already but if it wasnt i will post it for u, this is just like general history

shia are also against contradicting the quran. for instance, imam sadiq (A) told people to disregard hadith if they contradict quran. this is a very clear principle in shii thought

however.... our disagreement here is not about principles..... but in interpretations. in that you think certain beliefs contradict theq uran. and i don't. ok, we can agree to disagree - at least we share the basic principle of respecting the quran

Shias do that all the time.

As for you, you have been spamming in a lot of threads spread across several forums trying to prove that Shias are Mushrikeen. And so far, you have failed miserably.

hmmmm..... maybe that's not a case of spam.... maybe that's a case of too much coffee!

sorry individualist i am not being very nice i will go now :angel:

i have to admit i am really not seriously debating u, i'm just doing this as a hobby to distract myself

there is a secret i should tell u, shia people LOVE polemics like this. because it gives them an opportunity to propagate shia belief and to prove they are right. so you will find loads of shia people who just love to debate these minor issues. but maybe if it gets too extensive and it is taking up bandwidth, u guys can do it over email or something instead?

[individualist]

ok i think i get it now

so.... the SLAVES perform sajdah in worship of god. are you saying that prophet yusuf's family were mushriks?

No. Like I said before in this thread, prostration, by itself, is not worship... prayer is always worship, prostration is NOT... HOWEVER, it is believed that with Islam, prostration was also made *solely* an act of worship.

Think about it this way... if you beg a king for mercy, this not worship... you are begging for mercy and yet it's not worship.

Prayer is always worship.(and it is believed now that in Islam, prostration was also made solely as an act of worship).

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[BintAlHoda]

Think about it this way... if you beg a king for mercy, this not worship... you are begging for mercy and yet it's not worship.

Prayer is always worship.(and it is believed now that in Islam, prostration was also made solely as an act of worship).

1. begging is not worship

2. therefore asking (which is less than begging) is not worship

3. therefore asking is not prayer

4. and asking is not worship (since prayer = worship)

5. hence tawassul is not shirk

ALHAMDULILLLAH, case closed

[individualist]

begging is not worship (ps u can't put in criteria about seen or unseen that is not logical)

therefore asking (which is less than begging) is not worship

therefore asking is not prayer

and asking is not worship (since prayer = worship)

hence tawassul is not shirk

ALHAMDULILLLAH, case closed

BintAlHoda, you dissapoint me... I explained a million times that for Shirk via prayer you need two main ingredients without which there is NO shirk.. you need: *asking* & *unseen*.

[PeaceLoving]

BintAlHoda, you dissapoint me... I explained a million times that for Shirk via prayer you need two main ingredients without which there is NO shirk.. you need: *asking* & *unseen*.

You want to call us Mushrikeen o the basis of your definition of SHIRK ?

We have already rejected your definition.

[individualist]

see post #133

I explained everything there (how this fact was derived from Quran... the common factor, etc).

[BintAlHoda]

BintAlHoda, you dissapoint me...

STRAWMAN

I explained a million times that for Shirk via prayer you need two main ingredients without which there is NO shirk.. you need: *asking* & *unseen*.

sorry, the fact that u say it a million times does not make it a valid argument

i can see no reason why whether a person is seen or unseen makes any difference for whether it is shirk

however, for your sake, i will argue against u

*** argument part 1

but, if u like, let's expand our definition of 'unseen'

there are many aspects of the unseen world which, although we cannot see them with our physical eyes, we have some hints of them..... perhaps as if we are looking through a very very very very very deep fog

for instance, sometimes people get an 'evil feeling' when they go a place where great sins were commtted or to a graveyard, this is because there are shayateen around. or when they go to a graveyard where sinners are buried and they feel uncomfortable, this is because of the torture in the grave - even though it is 'unseen', there are hints of it in the world around us

or, when people go the ka'bah they feel peace and happiness and this is because of the angels there and the sanctity of the place. or in masjid al-nabawi. we sense these things even though we cannot see them in the same way that we will see them when we die and the veils are taken from our vision and we do see the angels, etc.

[explanation: this refutes the premise that everything is 'unseen' is somehow inaccessible to our spiritual senses]

*** argument part 2:

once, ali ibn abi talib (A) was asked whether he could see god, and he replied, 'would i worship what i cannot see?' not that he was saying that he could physically see god (like a tree or a rock) but that he could see god with his inner eye.

the qur'an talks about us seeing god in the next world. so therefore god is above being seen with the physical eye, but He is not 100% 'unseen'. if he could not be 'seen' or 'understood' in any way then how could we worship?

[explanation: this refutes the premise that one must ask the unseen in order to pray, because for some people spiritual realities are more 'seen']

** conclusion

so..... why not give people the benefit of the doubt here. why not assume that if they are doing tawassul to the imams, they somehow sense them with their 'inner eye' or connect with them in their heart so that some way they feel like there is a connection. in other words they are not talking to random unseen presences, but the inner eye sees a little bit.

after all, again, there is support for this from the verse which was already cited above, which is that the shuhada are alive before Allah (not dead like everyone else in barzakh). and you can combine that with the admittedly shi'a hadith which say you can do tawassul through these people. so therefore it is not like talking to totally unseen things

total unseen would be like if i wanted to talk to some rock on pluto and i would have no clue about it... that is something different

of course i am NOT saying that they are physically seeing things in the unseen..... but i guess i am repeating myself here, why not open yourself up to the idea that spiritual reality is much more complex than we understand.

[AbdullaQ]

People are still talking to this [Edited out]? He is clearly in error. Just try touching his ego see how he reacts.

Just the fact that he thinks HE is capable enough to support his claim is arrogance in full light. Any true believer by now would have said: "look I am nobody, but so and so scholar from the so and so school believes this, thus I am using this to argue against the Shia School".

And when you point this [Edited] to go read the answer of a shia scholar about this and other issues, he is too arrogant and accuses you of "trolling" (like he did to jimijm, I believe).

Did I forget: "I explained a million times" like he thinks Allah has sent him to deliver mankind from ignorance, but the holy household, no no no, they can not be the light of Allah on this earth. This man is.

I am sure this man can just read the quran, use his fine brain, and teach us how to make SALAT, not to mention the ways to please Allah and enter paradise. I am saying this of course because this man has claimed to KNOW the different between the clear and the unclear verses in the Holy Quran, thus using his faculty and the Holy Quran, this man is our saviour.

: |

Islam = Submission to Allah, the Holy Prophet, and THOSE PUT IN CHARGE by Allah.

Does that include you? Get off your high horse. Aren't you tired by now?

Either admit you are a Salafie, which is at least a respectable excuse for all this arguing. Or wizen up and learn to be humble to the creator of this universe, and his chosen servants. If you are humble, begin by no longer accusing the Holy Prophets of sinning, and SEARCH for the TRUTH from Allah and those whom he has chosen to guide us.

Note: If you notice in Al Fatiha, we ask Allah for Al Sirat al mustaqeem. Who's sirat is that? Allah's? No. Al Sirat is the path of those whom Allah has bestowed upon them his blessings. Meaning the Sirat of MOHAMMED and Ale Mohammed (pbuh)

Peace.

Edited January 9, 2010 by ~RuQaYaH~
Please refrain from name-calling

[AbdullaQ]

From: Lantern of the Path

Giving Judgement

Giving judgement is not permissible for someone who has not been endowed by Allah (SWT) with the qualities of inner purity, sincerity in both his hidden and visible actions, and a proof from his Lord in every state. This is because whoever has judged has decreed, and decree is only valid by the permission of Allah (SWT) and by His proof. Whoever is liberal in his judgement, without having made a proper examination, is ignorant and will be taken to task for his ignorance and will be burdened with his judgement as the tradition indicates. Knowledge is a light, which Allah (SWT) casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills.

The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) said, ‘Whoever is boldest among you in judging is also the most insolent to Allah (SWT)’. Does not the judge know that he is the one who has come between Allah (SWT) and His bondsmen, and that he is wavering between the Garden and the Fire? Sufyan ibn ‘Uyaynah said, ‘How can anyone else benefit from my knowledge if I have denied myself its benefit?’ It is inappropriate for anyone to judge on what is permissible (halāl) and what is forbidden (harām) among creation, except for one who causes the people of his time, his village, and his city to follow the truth through obedience to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) and who recognizes what is applicable of his judgement. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) said, ‘It is because giving judgement is such a tremendous affair, in which there is no place for “hopefully”, “perhaps” or “may be”.’

The Commander of the Faithful said to a judge, “Do you know the difference between those verses of the Qur’ān which abrogate and those which are abrogated?”

‘No’.

‘Do you have a command of the intentions of Allah (SWT) in the parables of the Qur’ān?’

‘No’.

‘Then you have perished and caused others to perish,’ the Commander of the Faithful replied.

A judge needs to know the various meanings of the Qur’ān, the truth of the Holy Prophet’s (peace be upon him and his family) way, the inward indications, courtesies, consensus and disagreements, and to be familiar with the bases of what they agree upon and disagree about. Then he must have acute discrimination, sound action, wisdom, and precaution. If he has these things, then let him judge.

Peace.

[layman]

Salam to those who are Guided!

[shakir 2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

[shakir 2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

There people whose heart is sealed...they can't see or hear and they are spiritually blinded...can't see beyond their physical SENSEs!

Allah swt call them "disbelievers"... Allah swt told us that we can't change them. Allah swt has sealed their heart.

Don't waste your time to convince "him". But write in this forum to help others who "heart" can see and benefit from this forum.

Layman

[individualist]

@ BinAlHoda

I'm tired of responding to your strawman... Your last post was a gigantic starwman.

[individualist]

@ AbdullaQ

[Edited out]

He is clearly in error. Just try touching his ego see how he reacts.

Why touch my ego? Why not refute my arguments without touching my ego? If you won't use name calling, I won't mind touching my ego as long as you don't mind touching yours.

Just the fact that he thinks HE is capable enough to support his claim is arrogance in full light. Any true believer by now would have said: "look I am nobody, but so and so scholar from the so and so school believes this, thus I am using this to argue against the Shia School".

yep... keep your ad hominem coming.. this certainly refutes my arguments.

And when you point this wall to go read the answer of a shia scholar about this and other issues, he is too arrogant and accuses you of "trolling" (like he did to jimijm, I believe).

wall again? I hope the mod will react to my alert. Anyway, dude, I don't even recognize the authority of Sunni scholars (I read their opinions but I don't necessarily agree with them always). Besides, I didn't call JimJam a troll, I only hinted that he might be trolling...

Did I forget: "I explained a million times" like he thinks Allah has sent him to deliver mankind from ignorance, but the holy household, no no no, they can not be the light of Allah on this earth. This man is.

More ad hominem.

I am sure this man can just read the quran, use his fine brain, and teach us how to make SALAT,

Strawman.

not to mention the ways to please Allah and enter paradise. I am saying this of course because this man has claimed to KNOW the different between the clear and the unclear verses in the Holy Quran, thus using his faculty and the Holy Quran, this man is our saviour.

Strawman + ad hominem.

Islam = Submission to Allah, the Holy Prophet, and THOSE PUT IN CHARGE by Allah.

Islam = submission to God (and obeying His messengers).

Does that include you? Get off your high horse. Aren't you tired by now?

Ad hominem.

Either admit you are a Salafie, which is at least a respectable excuse for all this arguing.

A Salafi? A Salafi who has no problem with rejecting any Sunni Hadith contradicting Quran, and making fun of some laughable mistakes of Bukhari/Muslims/Ibn Kathir? Are you out of your mind?

Or wizen up and learn to be humble to the creator of this universe,and his chosen servants.

What makes you think I'm a proud person? I am a very humble person. :angel:

If you are humble, begin by no longer accusing the Holy Prophets of sinning,

Dude, I'm simply reading verses out loud... these say prophets sinned and God forgave their sins.

and SEARCH for the TRUTH from Allah and those whom he has chosen to guide us.

Chosen ones? You mean the infallibles? Ok, how about this: your Tafsir says Adam is "Ma'sum".. The author even tried to twist the verse where God said He forgave Adam's sin... why don't you think for a second... How can Adam be Ma'sum when he clearly disobeyed God by eating from the Tree, was punished by being cast out of paradise, and was later forgiven... How can your Al-Mizan Tafsir try to twist the fact that God forgave Adam?

Note: If you notice in Al Fatiha, we ask Allah for Al Sirat al mustaqeem. Who's sirat is that? Allah's? No. Al Sirat is the path of those whom Allah has bestowed upon them his blessings. Meaning the Sirat of MOHAMMED and Ale Mohammed

so?

Edited January 9, 2010 by ~RuQaYaH~
quoted name-calling edited out

[individualist]

@ AbdullaQ & Layman

there's really no need to get so desperate as to accuse me of lack of spirituality and stuff, and please no need to post copy/paste walls of text.

Edited January 9, 2010 by individualist

[Abdul Qaim]

Tell me, individualist, do you believe that mankind was always destined to face trial in this dunya? If Adam was not destined to be tried in this world, are we - his children - suffering in this vale of tears because of Adam's sin? Are we being punished because of the actions of our forefather? Why do we not start our lives in Paradise just as Adam did?

Edited January 9, 2010 by Abdul Qaim

[AbdullaQ]

Whom are you trying to convince? pick and choose what you wish to believe according to what agrees with your desires, Allah knows the what is in the heart.

The Commander of the Faithful said to a judge, “Do you know the difference between those verses of the Qur’ān which abrogate and those which are abrogated?”

‘No’.

‘Do you have a command of the intentions of Allah (SWT) in the parables of the Qur’ān?’

‘No’.

‘Then you have perished and caused others to perish’

[individualist]

@ Abdul Qaim

Tell me, individualist, do you believe that mankind was always destined to face trial in this dunya? If Adam was not destined to be tried in this world, are we - his children - suffering in this vale of tears because of Adam's sin? Are we being punished because of the actions of our forefather? Why do we not start our lives in Paradise just as Adam did?

Think of it this way. Your father used to live in a palace, he made a mistake, lost his fortune, and now he's living in a small little house along with his children... are his children being punished because of their father's mistake? no. this is their father's abode now, and they're living in it.

@ AbdullaQ

How about you answer this simple yes/no question:

Was Adam infallible? Yes/No? (note that Al-Mizan Tafsir says yes). I hope you can answer simple yes/no questions.

Edited January 9, 2010 by individualist

[Awakened]

Salam

I have used entirely different reasoning and also don't equate with worship (and showed why if Catholics worship Saints, then all Muslims, tawasul or no tawasul worship Mohammad (saw) simple because the reverence we have is a lot more) , but showed why it's wrong according to verses.

If people can reply to the logic I've shown which I alluded to verses to Quran by (didn't both quoting them, everyone should be well aware of them) that we be appreciated.

Specially about the issue of there being No SHAFE'E but Allah (swt) and what it orignally meant and the type of Waseela that God said he never put, etc...

If people are convinced Invidiluast is making circular claims etc, then why are they continuing to reply only to him and totally ignoring my posts/points? (and I'm looking for feedback hoping people can showed flawed reasoning if there is some cause we often don't catch our mistakes and errors.)

wa salam

Edited January 9, 2010 by Awakened

[Abdul Qaim]

@ Abdul Qaim

Think of it this way. Your father used to live in a palace, he made a mistake, lost his fortune, and now he's living in a small little house along with his children... are his children being punished because of their father's mistake? no. this is their father's abode now, and they're living in it.

OK, so I gather you don't believe Adam (or we for that matter) was destined for this world.

I understand your example, but in this case, the father's posterity is destined for poverty in perpetuity - at least in this world, anyway...

[individualist]

I hope that you can differentiate between pre-destiny and pre-knowledge. God knew Adam would disobey him, but God did not force Adam to disobey him...

Anyway, how about YOU answer this simple yes/no question:

Was Adam infallible? Yes/No? (note that Al-Mizan Tafsir says yes).