Saying Ya Hussein?

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

@individualist

the quran stopped being revealed by the time they were around so we have no divinely revealed instances of their actions.

if Allah SWT did not tell us about the Prophets sins we would have assumed they did nothing wrong, or assumed they did a whole lot wrong, most of the examples of them also shows how Allah forgave them and the extent of their wrong.

so we are left with a very rosy picture of imams their 'sin' is between them and Allah, but they have a job to do and Allah would not compromise their effectiveness to do the job

that is the bottom most factual way of putting things. it would be beautiful if they could have more personality, and options but they were denied for our sake

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[individualist]

On another note: The Holy Prophets do not sin, nor do those whom Allah has chosen. Example, Imams, Lady Fatima, Lady Mariyam, Al Khedir, ...etc.

A VERY VERY clear example showing how they can not sin is the story of Moses and Al Khedir at the end of Surat Al Kahf. What Prophet Moses (a) thought was SIN was in fact an act of obedience to Allah. So I would be very careful about accusing the HONOUR of such holy people.

I do not wish to go further into detail since discussion here is out of Topic. I would prefer making a separate topic. Also, discussion with board members is really shallow. Many great scholars have written detailed books FULLY answering this topic. Those whom lack the patience to read books could also lack the patience to understand. Discussions can only teach us so much.

Peace.

I can finally see what all this is about... you guys love Ahl Bayt so so much (which is good)... and while some of you, might find it OK to pray to God directly, NONE of you can stomach the idea of their falibility. No matter how perfectly clear the verses of the Quran are. You almost would make it haram to read out loud these verses :)

Anyway, like I said before, they are far more beautful as FALLIBLE humans who tried their utmost effort to stay as far away from sin as possible.

Anyway, even if you insist that they are most beautiful only when they're infallible, then that's OK... it's no sin to have benignly wrong impressions... AS LONG AS you pray to God directly, then every other concept whether true or not (infallibility, right to leadership, etc) is not harmful.

regards.

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[individualist]

(salam)

I thank you a lot for your many advices. Pray for me please (yes this time, THAT'S halal tawassul) :)

But please read the books I told you to read, atleast so you understand why we say they're infallible

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

I'll pray for you inshallah! And I promise when I have time I'll read these books.

thanks!

[AbdullaQ]

@ individualist

Your interpretation is useless, and it is in no way an excuse (Hujja).

I saw you quote the verse from Surat Al Imran about the clear verses and the unclear. You seriously think you know what is clear from what is unclear? Oh how mistaken you are. I will throw you a few examples just to show you how lost you are. And please note that relying solely on your own personal interpretation is EXACTLY what Allah has warned us against. It is called following the "Hawa".

Examples of something clearly "obvious" that is in reality NOT what it seems:

- Regarding Prophet Nooh's wife. There i a verse that says clearly that She Has Betrayed (Khanat) Prophet Nooh (a). Another verse has Prophet Nooh (a) asking Allah, after his son drowned: "You promised to save my family, Why didnt you save him?" and Allah replies "He is not of your family, he is act that is not good".

So? what do you think? Was his wife sleeping round? It sure looks that way. The correct answer is NO, her betrayal was not believing in Prophet Nooh (a). This answer is nowhere in the Holy Quran, it is only in Hadith.

Another example: Quran says do not throw your hands into Destruction. Sounds obvious no? It came down to tell the people of Madina NOT to leave Jihad and go back to Farming their lands.

I could present more, but the knowledgeable with only a gesture understands.

Peace.

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

Anyway, like I said before, they are far more beautful as FALLIBLE humans who tried their utmost effort to stay as far away from sin as possible.

what do you mean by fallible?

do you mean a bunch of people that Allah orders you to learn from, then you find out one was a paedophile and the other loved wine and died drunk then went to hell, or another preached tawheed most his life then became a Christian so you have to disconnect and forget everything he taught... just how 'fallible' do they need to be?

shouldn't we all stay away from sin as far as possible?

anyway if someone does shirk there is no belief that can save them no matter how sound and correct so it would be better to be the most ignorant muslim idiot without shirk than an enlightned mushriq.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[AbdullaQ]

Anyway, like I said before, they are far more beautful as FALLIBLE humans who tried their utmost effort to stay as far away from sin as possible.

Anyway, even if you insist that they are most beautiful only when they're infallible, then that's OK... it's no sin to have benignly wrong impressions... AS LONG AS you pray to God directly, then every other concept whether true or not (infallibility, right to leadership, etc) is not harmful.

You know nothing, and your words betray you.

The Imams are humans whom can sin just like everyone, but they DO NOT SIN because to them SIN is obvious. I read a hadith once and I will post what I remember of it, so please excuse the lack of reference and accuracy: A man once asked the Imam about Infallibility, and the Imam replied: would you run in the street naked? The man said no. The Imam said, well just as you clearly see how such an act is unacceptable and would humiliate you in the eyes of the people, we are as such aware of Allah.

[14infallibles]

I'll pray for you inshallah! And I promise when I have time I'll read these books.

thanks!

(salam)

Thank you brother

(salam)

what do you mean by fallible?

do you mean a bunch of people that Allah orders you to learn from, then you find out one was a paedophile and the other loved wine and died drunk then went to hell, or another preached tawheed most his life then became a Christian so you have to disconnect and forget everything he taught... just how 'fallible' do they need to be?

shouldn't we all stay away from sin as far as possible?

(salam)

You know he didn't mean that

He already specified they're "small sins".

اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد

Edited January 8, 2010 by 14infallibles

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

You know he didn't mean that

He already specified they're "small sins".

اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد

(salam)

it didnt actually, suffering implies to me loud and clear you did small sins, since they are to remove sins, otherwise they are punishment.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[Awakened]

Salam

I don't know if it is true or not, but according to the Bible people when Ayub (as) was suffering, told him it was DUE To his Sins and that he was bad. but he would point to the favors and he would say God is not punishing him.

I think the Nubuwa of Ayub (as) had a lot to do with the issue of suffering and not suffering. Too bad we don't know what the revealed of book of his said and how Allah (swt) addressed him there and how spoke to the people by God's command, like we know of Mohammad (saw).

Maybe soon Imam Mahdi (as) will bring all the books back... and we can read of the majestic beloved Ayub (as) and his patience and love of God in face of suffering and what Ayub (as) heart believed of suffering and what God revealed of it.

It may also be one of the most important topics since a lot of discussion today amongst people (and amongst intellectuals) is on the issue of sufferring in this world.

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Awakened]

But we do have words of the blessed inheritors of the Nubuwa and inheritors of Ayub (as) and all Anbiya (as), so here is what an ocean of blessed knowledge and traquil river of light and majestic water of all treasures said (Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (as)) :

Affliction is an adornment for the believer and a mark of honour for the man of intellect, because facing it directly needs steadfastness and firm-footedness, both of which confirm belief. The Holy Prophet said, 'We, the company of the prophets, are the people who have the hardest trials, then after us come the believers, then the others like them.'

Whoever tastes the food of affliction while under Allah's protection enjoys it more than he enjoys Allah's blessing. He yearns for it when it is not there, because the lights of blessing lie under the balance of affliction and trial, and the balance of affliction and trial lies under the lights of blessing. Many are delivered from affliction and then destroyed in blessing. Allah praised none of His bondsmen, from Adam up to Muhammad, until He had tested him and seen how he fulfilled the duty of worship while in affliction. Allah's marks of honour come, in fact, at the last stage, but the afflictions themselves come in the beginning.

Whoever leaves the path of affliction is ignoring the lamp of the believers, the beacon of those near to Allah, and the guide for those on the right path. There is no good in a slave who complains of a single trial preceded by thousands of blessings and followed by thousands of comforts. Whoever does not show the patience required in affliction is deprived of thankfulness in the blessings he receives. Similarly, whoever does not give the thankfulness owed for blessings is denied the patience owed in affliction. Whoever is denied both of them is an outcast.

Ayyub said in his supplication, 'O Allah, verily seventy comforts and ease did not come to me until You sent me seventy afflictions.'

And Wahb ibn Munabbih said, 'Affliction to a believer is like a bit to a horse and a halter to a camel.' Ali said, 'Steadfastness in relation to belief is like the head to the body. The head of steadfastness is afflictions but only those who act righteously understand that.'

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

@awakened all that implies it removes 'sins' you do to.

this topic is getting derailed

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[Awakened]

Where did Imam (as) mention anything with sins? What removes sins is repentance and water of Taqwa as explained elsewhere in the same blessed noble book attributed to Imam Jaffar (as).

It's all about patience and blessings gained in the Spirit of Patience, that this is opens up doors for more blessings and more tranquilities.

In the hardship is peace and ease "with hardship there is ease".

wa salam alaikom

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Mohammed-W]

Where did Imam (as) mention anything with sins? What removes sins is repentance and water of Taqwa as explained elsewhere in the same blessed noble book attributed to Imam Jaffar (as).

It's all about patience and blessings gained in the Spirit of Patience, that this is opens up doors for more blessings and more tranquilities.

In the hardship is peace and ease "with hardship there is ease".

wa salam alaikom

(salam)

dua tawassul, probably not allowed to say that on shia chat.

i think its a forgery if not it is a clear sin and answers your question.

Dua'a E Tawassul the dua i am talking about.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[individualist]

@ AbdullaQ

Your interpretation is useless, and it is in no way an excuse (Hujja).

My interpretation? I'm just reading the verses out loud... it says sinned... it says forgave their sins...

I saw you quote the verse from Surat Al Imran about the clear verses and the unclear. You seriously think you know what is clear from what is unclear?

Well, some verses are as clear as 1+1=2 (these are the majority) some are clearly very vague and some are in between.

Look, this argument that the Quran is not for anyone to understand is the source of all evil... God did not send to us His book so that we read it like parrots without thinking... Sunnis too share the same evil idea... their Sheikhs want us to read Quran like parrots...

This is evil, evil, evil! I will read the Quran to inderstand it and no one has the exclusive right to understand the Quran... and believe it or not, when you see perfectly clear verses saying such and such, then that's what they're saying...

Oh how mistaken you are. I will throw you a few examples just to show you how lost you are.

but of course, I don't follow the "infallibles"... I must be lost.

And please note that relying solely on your own personal interpretation is EXACTLY what Allah has warned us against. It is called following the "Hawa".

OF COURSE!

It is a SIN to think! Just keep reading the Quran like a parrot! ONLY they, the Sheiks, are allowed to handle this dangerous JOB of trying to understand the Quran! The Quran IS NOT for us to understand! The Quran is NOT easy to understand, even if the verses are very clear, we should ignore them and listen to our HOLY "scholars". We should ignore verses like these for example:

41:3

ÇáÓæÑÉ ÝÕáÊ ÂíÉ 3

ßöÊóÇÈñ ÝõÕøöáóÊú ÂíóÇÊõåõ ÞõÑúÂäðÇ ÚóÑóÈöíøðÇ áøöÞóæúãò íóÚúáóãõæäó

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:

27:1

ÇáÓæÑÉ Çáäãá ÂíÉ 1

ØÓ Êöáúßó ÂíóÇÊõ ÇáúÞõÑúÂäö æóßöÊóÇÈò ãøõÈöíäò

Ta. Sin. These are revelations of the Qur'an and a Scripture that maketh plain;

47:24

ÇáÓæÑÉ ãÍãÏ ÂíÉ 24

ÃóÝóáóÇ íóÊóÏóÈøóÑõæäó ÇáúÞõÑúÂäó Ãóãú Úóáóì ÞõáõæÈò ÃóÞúÝóÇáõåóÇ

Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?

54:17

ÇáÓæÑÉ ÇáÞãÑ ÂíÉ 17

æóáóÞóÏú íóÓøóÑúäóÇ ÇáúÞõÑúÂäó áöáÐøößúÑö Ýóåóáú ãöä ãøõÏøóßöÑò

And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

44:58

ÇáÓæÑÉ ÇáÏÎÇä ÂíÉ 58

ÝóÅöäøóãóÇ íóÓøóÑúäóÇåõ ÈöáöÓóÇäößó áóÚóáøóåõãú íóÊóÐóßøóÑõæäó

Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed.

38:29

ÇáÓæÑÉ Õ ÂíÉ 29

ßöÊóÇÈñ ÃóäÒóáúäóÇåõ Åöáóíúßó ãõÈóÇÑóßñ áøöíóÏøóÈøóÑõæÇ ÂíóÇÊöåö æóáöíóÊóÐóßøóÑó ÃõæúáõæÇ ÇáúÃóáúÈóÇÈö

(This is) a Scripture that We have revealed unto thee, full of blessing, that they may ponder its revelations, and that men of understanding may reflect.

4:82

ÇáÓæÑÉ ÇáäÓÇÁ ÂíÉ 82

ÃóÝóáÇó íóÊóÏóÈøóÑõæäó ÇáúÞõÑúÂäó æóáóæú ßóÇäó ãöäú ÚöäÏö ÛóíúÑö Çááøåö áóæóÌóÏõæÇú Ýöíåö ÇÎúÊöáÇóÝðÇ ßóËöíÑðÇ

Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

But according to our HOLY "scholars", we should act like donkeys carrying books (understanding nothing):

62:5

ÇáÓæÑÉ ÇáÌãÚÉ ÂíÉ 5

ãóËóáõ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÍõãøöáõæÇ ÇáÊøóæúÑóÇÉó Ëõãøó áóãú íóÍúãöáõæåóÇ ßóãóËóáö ÇáúÍöãóÇÑö íóÍúãöáõ ÃóÓúÝóÇÑðÇ ÈöÆúÓó ãóËóáõ ÇáúÞóæúãö ÇáøóÐöíäó ßóÐøóÈõæÇ ÈöÂíóÇÊö Çááøóåö æóÇááøóåõ áóÇ íóåúÏöí ÇáúÞóæúãó ÇáÙøóÇáöãöíäó

The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

NO! I don't care what the "scholars" think! I read their opinions but the final decision is utlimately mine! They are NOT prophets. And the religion is for EVERYONE of us... of course we should be CAREFUL and not explain things to suit our desires:

25:43

ÇáÓæÑÉ ÇáÝÑÞÇä ÂíÉ 43

ÃóÑóÃóíúÊó ãóäö ÇÊøóÎóÐó Åöáóåóåõ åóæóÇåõ ÃóÝóÃóäÊó Êóßõæäõ Úóáóíúåö æóßöíáðÇ

Have you seen him who takes his desires for his god? Will you then be a protector over him?

Next time, when you read the Quran, read it to understand it... just be careful and don't explain things according to your desires.

OR you can always ignore clear verses, act like a donkey who understands nothing and make your "scholars" HOLY by listening to them and ignoring God's clear instructions that this Quran is for EVERYONE to try to understand.

Examples of something clearly "obvious" that is in reality NOT what it seems:

- Regarding Prophet Nooh's wife. There i a verse that says clearly that She Has Betrayed (Khanat) Prophet Nooh (a).

First off genius, betrayal does NOT necessarily mean marital unfaitfulness... unlike sin.. sin means sin. Forgiving sins means forgiving sins.

Anyway, the word "betray" becomes clear in light of these verses:

Tahrim: 10-11

ÖóÑóÈó Çááøóåõ ãóËóáðÇ áøöáøóÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇ ÇöãúÑóÃóÉó äõæÍò æóÇöãúÑóÃóÉó áõæØò ßóÇäóÊóÇ ÊóÍúÊó ÚóÈúÏóíúäö ãöäú ÚöÈóÇÏöäóÇ ÕóÇáöÍóíúäö ÝóÎóÇäóÊóÇåõãóÇ Ýóáóãú íõÛúäöíóÇ ÚóäúåõãóÇ ãöäó Çááøóåö ÔóíúÆðÇ æóÞöíáó ÇÏúÎõáóÇ ÇáäøóÇÑó ãóÚó ÇáÏøóÇÎöáöíäó «10» æóÖóÑóÈó Çááøóåõ ãóËóáðÇ áøöáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÇöãúÑóÃóÉó ÝöÑúÚóæúäó ÅöÐú ÞóÇáóÊú ÑóÈøö ÇÈúäö áöí ÚöäÏóßó ÈóíúÊðÇ Ýöí ÇáúÌóäøóÉö æóäóÌøöäöí ãöä ÝöÑúÚóæúäó æóÚóãóáöåö æóäóÌøöäöí ãöäó ÇáúÞóæúãö ÇáÙøóÇáöãöíäó «11»

Another verse has Prophet Nooh (a) asking Allah, after his son drowned: "You promised to save my family, Why didnt you save him?" and Allah replies "He is not of your family, he is act that is not good".

So? what do you think? Was his wife sleeping round? It sure looks that way.

The verse about Nouh's son is totally irrelevant to explaining the word "betray". Especially in light of this verse:

7:189-190

» åõæó ÇáøóÐöí ÎóáóÞóßõã ãøöä äøóÝúÓò æóÇÍöÏóÉò æóÌóÚóáó ãöäúåóÇ ÒóæúÌóåóÇ áöíóÓúßõäó ÅöáóíúåóÇ ÝóáóãøóÇ ÊóÛóÔøóÇåóÇ ÍóãóáóÊú ÍóãúáÇð ÎóÝöíÝðÇ ÝóãóÑøóÊú Èöåö ÝóáóãøóÇ ÃóËúÞóáóÊ ÏøóÚóæóÇ Çááøåó ÑóÈøóåõãóÇ áóÆöäú ÂÊóíúÊóäóÇ ÕóÇáöÍÇð áøóäóßõæäóäøó ãöäó ÇáÔøóÇßöÑöíäó «189» ÝóáóãøóÇ ÂÊóÇåõãóÇ ÕóÇáöÍÇð ÌóÚóáÇó áóåõ ÔõÑóßóÇÁ ÝöíãóÇ ÂÊóÇåõãóÇ ÝóÊóÚóÇáóì Çááøåõ ÚóãøóÇ íõÔúÑößõæäó

The correct answer is NO, her betrayal was not believing in Prophet Nooh (a). This answer is nowhere in the Holy Quran, it is only in Hadith.

Yes it is, as I shown you above... but in any case, like I said before: betrayal does NOT necessarily mean marital unfaitfulness... unlike sin.. sin means sin. Forgiving sin means forgiving sins.

So your argument so far is a strawman.

Another example: Quran says do not throw your hands into Destruction. Sounds obvious no?

You mean 2:195? No, it does not sound very obvious... when i first read this verse I wasn't sure I understood it... I read the Tafsir and accepted its Tafsir.

It came down to tell the people of Madina NOT to leave Jihad and go back to Farming their lands.

The Sunni Tafsir is slightly different. But again, you presented a strawman... this verse is not obvious as you claim.... unlike mentioning sin and forgiving it.... in this case, the verse is talking about sin.

I could present more,

no more starwman please.

but the knowledgeable with only a gesture understands.

Tell yourself that... you need it.

[Awakened]

(salam)

dua tawassul

(salam)

I did suggest to not discuss Ismaa in this thread and remain on topic of this thread.

Anyways, I wrote a long post that summarized how the issue of Shirk was discussed from what I understand of Quran and also with the issue of Shafaa and Waseela (which didn't mean what people think it means now) and also that I don't think Catholics are worshipping Saints when they call them, and showed why that is (with talk of what worship is) but also discuss how it is wrong and we should not do so according to verses.

Also, remember the Quran said the falsehood of other Gods besides Allah (swt) will never come back after the truth came, so there will not be any significant amount of people in this falsehood while most Muslims believe in tawasul with the Nabi (saw) (and some others).

So equating with how Mushrikeen equated with God , and then with a sorry excuse to we just worship to Worship Him when arguments against them were strong, and etc, all the arguments debunking any reason they can fathom to associate with God with people calling people to pray and advocate on their behalf...it's not fair and a huge injustice and Fitna which we will be responsible for.

I would say however it is wrong for reasons I showed and it leads to injustice things said about God (like he will delay if someone sincerely supplicates with a supplication from Saheefa Sajadiya but make it super quick if you call Ahlebayt (as) to advocate for you). This logic they did in the latter was due to not being able to say why Tawasul if all du'as are accepted...

But I did show one type of addressing them and hoping blessings back from them and good hospital treatment (it being two way) and i said why I see no problems with this (because it doesn't give needs must go through, or supplication is more like to be accepted through, also the spirit should be done as in your addressing a human, not something beyond human, and it's human to human relationship that you see benefit in here).

I think are big trust and our hope should be in the mercy we believe in when we read "Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem" verse 3 Suratal Fatiha and we should say as Imam Sajjad (as) teaches us to say in Saheefa Sajadiya "There is no Shafee for me, so let your mercy yushfini"

And this supplication is in fact a shafaa from the Sole Shafee by the one of Shafeeen be ithnihi, Imam Sajad (as).

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[individualist]

You know nothing, and your words betray you.

The Imams are humans whom can sin just like everyone, but they DO NOT SIN because to them SIN is obvious. I read a hadith once and I will post what I remember of it, so please excuse the lack of reference and accuracy: A man once asked the Imam about Infallibility, and the Imam replied: would you run in the street naked? The man said no. The Imam said, well just as you clearly see how such an act is unacceptable and would humiliate you in the eyes of the people, we are as such aware of Allah.

Oh, so ALL sin is obvious to Imams and that's why they don't sin... but ordinary people forget and err and so do prophets (e.g. David/Solomon).

38:30-32

وَوَهَبْنَا لِدَاوُودَ سُلَيْمَانَ نِعْمَ الْعَبْدُ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ «30» إِذْ عُرِضَ عَلَيْهِ بِالْعَشِيِّ الصَّافِنَاتُ الْجِيَادُ «31» فَقَالَ إِنِّي أَحْبَبْتُ حُبَّ الْخَيْرِ عَن ذِكْرِ رَبِّي حَتَّى تَوَارَتْ بِالْحِجَابِ »

And We bestowed on David, Solomon. How excellent a slave! Lo! he was ever turning in repentance (toward Allah).

When there were shown to him at eventide lightfooted coursers

And he said: Lo! I have preferred the good things (of the world) to the remembrance of my Lord; till they were taken out of sight behind the curtain.

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

dua tawassul, probably not allowed to say that on shia chat.

i think its a forgery if not it is a clear sin and answers your question.

Dua'a E Tawassul the dua i am talking about.

@awakened

it is off topic but i tried to explain because the impression is that when presented with clear quran 'shia' will do the opposite because of belief in infallibility. (briefly explain and that is all i am capable of)

but i am not so far down the road that it matters. to me to argue if they can sin or not.

some things are forgeries or clear sin.

(which one is better)

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[Awakened]

@awakened

it is off topic but i tried to explain because the impression is that when presented with clear quran 'shia' will do the opposite because of belief in infallibility. but i am not so far down the road that it matters some things are forgeries or clear sin.

(which one is better)

I don't understand you the part:" but i am not so far down the road that it matters some things are forgeries or clear sin.

(which one is better)"

If you can rephrase it completely, that would be good.

wa salam

[Mohammed-W]

I don't understand you the part:" but i am not so far down the road that it matters some things are forgeries or clear sin.

(which one is better)"

If you can rephrase it completely, that would be good.

wa salam

(salam)

i am not far down the road of arguing specifics of infallibility for purpose of proving or disproving it is not my path I am treading.

i hope when i am further down the road i still do not do it the imams sa are predisposed to do their job, end of story. infallible is just a word.

this dua is shirk, clear as day. (you may/will disagree)

so now i am in this situation do i accept it and have a 'sound argument for sin'

or do i say it is a forgery it is one or the other.

which one is better to believe?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[Awakened]

Oh, so ALL sin is obvious to Imams and that's why they don't sin... but ordinary people forget and err and so do prophets (e.g. David/Solomon).

38:30-32

وَوَهَبْنَا لِدَاوُودَ سُلَيْمَانَ نِعْمَ الْعَبْدُ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ «30» إِذْ عُرِضَ عَلَيْهِ بِالْعَشِيِّ الصَّافِنَاتُ الْجِيَادُ «31» فَقَالَ إِنِّي أَحْبَبْتُ حُبَّ الْخَيْرِ عَن ذِكْرِ رَبِّي حَتَّى تَوَارَتْ بِالْحِجَابِ »

And We bestowed on David, Solomon. How excellent a slave! Lo! he was ever turning in repentance (toward Allah).

When there were shown to him at eventide lightfooted coursers

And he said: Lo! I have preferred the good things (of the world) to the remembrance of my Lord; till they were taken out of sight behind the curtain.

Salam invidualist,

Whether you like it or not, there are some humans whom just loved God too much to sin and reach by their desire and love to states we cannot fathom. God chose from the best of his servants to guide us.

Humanity was never destined to be sinners that we were, this is just a sad turn of events that has kept the falsehood strong, but there was always some whom sincerity and love and desire to the Divine kept them from falsehood and from inclining to other then beloved blessed Glorious Lord of the Universe.

However, how will we know of their sincere repentance to God? And their turning to God and severeness on shortcomings they feel of themselves? These blessed sinless souls used the same words "my evil deeds" 'my sins" "my uncleaness", although they were completely pure and free from sins and of only good deeds. This so we adopt the way, and we don't stop turning and repenting and making little of faults, in each stage, we put higher standard, and repent.

This to teach to never take it easy on any stage, because in striving hard and blaming the self, lies true peace and ease. Think highly of one's acts will make us sastified with a station when there is infinite stations higher then it.

We always should put a higher standard, if we leave all evils as in the truly dirty from the dirty cursed tree evils, we should not be satisfied, but keep going in the way of repentance and turning to God.

I don't know why it's so redicolous in your view that this is the reality of the world, there are blessed souls that are untainted with any evilness and uncleanness, and all their acts is of a blessed holy Spirit and desire for God, even their "faults/sins" are not tainted with "uncleanness" or real evil.

I hope God gives your knowledge of his Messengers (as) and believe in the blessed pure states they come with and call to.

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Awakened]

(salam)

i am not far down the road of arguing specifics of infallibility for purpose of proving or disproving it is not my path I am treading.

i hope when i am further down the road i still do not do it the imams sa are predisposed to do their job, end of story. infallible is just a word.

this dua is shirk, clear as day. (you may/will disagree)

so now i am in this situation do i accept it and have a 'sound argument for sin'

or do i say it is a forgery it is one or the other.

which one is better to believe?

(salam) bro.

I don't know what your discussing. But something to think about, the Quran says the only think that kept people from accepting guidance and turning to God for forgiveness was a question posed by themselves "Did God sent a mortal to be a Messenger?".

And this shows their ignorance of what it means to be human and they lack knowledge of the Soul and what is meant to be, and the height and perfection of the ones whom submitted to his Command and followed the Desire guiding to Allah (swt) and cut off all other then him by the Sword of God with them.

This was in fact a perfect society to reveal the las revelation to as it can address their ignorance and talk about the issue of the Chosen Holy Pure souls and that the replies to "why not a treasure brought down.." or the Angel (as) or Sign... this was all perfect questions and Allah (swt) by answering them did so that it will reveal guidance for all times to come.

What keeps people from recognizing the truth and guidance is the same reason in it's inward (might not be the same question, but it's the same type of ignorance of that question imposes), it's ignorance of the self and human soul and the Messengers (as) and the Imam (as) of time, and this being ignorance of Allah (swt).

I don't want to get into details of the importance of recognizing the perfection and complete purity and blessed states of Anbiya (as) but it's not a thing that is not important. What was the TRUST? Wasn't it the Blessed Name of Allah (swt)? What did we promise to protect? What did promise to seek? And we took this burden risking with the destiny of our souls caused we belittle everything else, we wanted it all, the Kawthar, we wanted the treasures and river and the blessed tree, and we out of all the souls, the mountains, the heavens and the earth, they didn't take it, but we took it, we chose this because we had that desire and they were not willing to risk this like us! We had courage but now we are cowards.... and this, the courageous pledge we took upon ourselves out of a pure desire we had and knowledge we can fulfill it, now we won't to act like there was no one whom fufilled it? Like humanity is sinners, everything else doesn't sin, not the trees, not he Angels, but were are sinners by nature... We didn't do huge injustice by totally pretending there was no trust let alone break it! Or forgetting it entirely!

We could have protected it like we promised we would, but we let them take it away, the enemies, and we could have gained it back, but we didn't care, and when God sent the ones whom did fulfill the trust, guarded the trust with all their might, not ever breaking his covenant, nor having an slight untruthfullness in their pledges to Him, teaching us ways of turning back by their example, saying words that will be useful even for our low stations, adopting ways that will apply to all whom they are sent to, speaking in forms that will address all types of intellects and misguide no one, we accuse them of being sinners like us? God keep us from ignorance of you and of the trust of your holy name which we could have fulfilled but did not, and make us honor the best of sons and daughters of our Father Adam (as), whom raced ahead of all in goodness, and whom you chose and elected and selected for guidance and leadership and conveying your signs and words and way and path and name and truth and light and establishing a rope between your creation from the lowest to the best of the best, and whom no one came close from all the people of the earth!

Blessed is Allah (swt) and His Name and Favor called to, and His Peace and he is the Peace by from is the peace and to him Ascends the peace, is and has always been and will continue to be upon his Chosens, truly he is better then all what is put aside along him.

O God bless Mohammad and the family of Mohammad, those whom you desired to keep away from their souls naught but the impurities and whom you, the blessed and there being no blessings more then you, are what purifies them a perfect purification, and you are their Guardian and your are there Sword and your their desire and you are their goal and you are their path and you are with them completely, and the one whom truly threw when your servant Mohammad (pbuh) threw and by the Haq of your Name, he did not throw nor ever would have wanted to.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

i said arguing about it is not important,we are arguing and discussing words it is more than a word. *infallible* as you know

on this forum sometimes there is misunderstanding and we debate by mistake.

now you asked me an example of 'sin' committed

i gave you the example this dua it is clear shirk

and i am asking you is it better for me to believe it is a forgery (to reinforce this sinless state)?

or do i accept this dua and say they sinned?

which one is it?

we got into this because you asked for an example of sin in the sayings

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[Awakened]

(salam)

i said arguing about it is not important,we are arguing and discussing words it is more than a word. *infallible* as you know

on this forum sometimes there is misunderstanding and we debate by mistake.

now you asked me an example of 'sin' committed

i gave you the example this dua it is clear shirk

and i am asking you is it better for me to believe it is a forgery (to reinforce this sinless state)?

or do i accept this dua and say they sinned?

which one is it?

we got into this because you asked for an example of sin in the sayings

Why you asking me something you know?

wa salam

I never asked anything about sins in sayings as far as I remember. (ok now I get it, ok I was talking about the QUOTE, about afflictions, on topic of that! It was in that context (referring to the quote), not about all hadiths in general....).

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[layman]

Salam to all,

So far the discussion in this thread has been good.

I would like to chip in on the issue of infallibility.

1. First, let focus the relationship between Allah and created beings. Allah swt is Absolute Infallible... No one can claim he/she is absolute Infallible in the Presence of Allah swt, not even Prophet or Ahlulbayt. If Prophet claims to be infallible in the presence of Allah swt, he is musyrik.

We have seen many Prophets sinned when they are tested directly by Allah swt. When Allah swt tested a Prophet, he is just a human being...like you and me. He may failed the test and commit errors.

The reason is quite obvious... Allah the Absolute Infallible will not test "infallible humans"...."because infallible humans does not exist" because all humans are slaves and fallible beings in the EYE of Allah swt. Therefore, Adam was tested as Adam the normal human, and he failed in the case of eating the fruit from the tree. We cannot have "One infallible" testing Another Infallible". It does not exist!

Some of the mistakes that past Prophets were made public as lessons to be learned, others we not told to us. The very reason Allah swt told us why these Prophet make mistakes because to show that in the Presence of Absolute Infallible, no created being can claim infallibility. Before Allah swt made public those mistakes and sins made by them, Allah swt already forgiven those mistakes /sins.

2. Now let focus on Humans to humans.

Those who carried the message of Salvation from Allah swt, will have to be protected in term of their credibility ...and trustworthiness. These selected persons must not be shown as making mistakes or errors in the presence of other human beings while in the process of delivery the message of Allah swt. Allah swt will put in these selected persons "Ruhul Qudus" that will make their souls under full control of Allah swt. Because of the Presense of the Ruhul Qudus, the selected persons become Prophets and Messengers and Imams to the Ummah. Because of the Presence of the Ruhul Qudus, the Prophets and Messengers WERE PROTECTED from making mistakes and Sinning.

3. Will Allah swt make public and tell the mankind about Prophets mistakes? Only a few will be shown and to make a point that Allah swt is the Absolute Protector and Absolute Infallible.

4. WIll Allah swt also keep from Public any mistakes from some of the Prophet? Yes. These Prophets served as examples that Allah swt is capable to protect the trustworthiness of them so that no mistakes can be observed from them. If the message of Salvation from Allah swt is the Greatest Importance, (such as the final religion of Islam, the Qur'an, and intepretation of Qur'an is for all mankind), the protection of Allah to the Messenger will be from the moment he was born until he physically dead. This also applies to Imams from among Ahlulbayt who will continue the Message of Salvation, and Allah swt strengthen their souls with Ruhul Qudus and they would be able to see the haq/batil right in their very eyes (spiritual eyes). They are able to escape all errors and mistakes due the Importance of the Message that they are supposed to deliver to the Ummah and that will last until Qiamat.

When the Shias say that Prophets and Imams are Infallible...means Prophets and Imams are protected from sinning and errors in the eyes of the Public. As far as in the Eye of Allah swt, none is infallible. We are slaves.... That is reasons all Prophets and Imams in their duas...they confessed their mistakes and sins. By doing so...they became Pure Slaves of Allah swt.

Layman

[Abdul Qaim]

ok... so you were explaining that it is claimed that technically they are humans (with ability to sin) but they hate sin so much to the point of being sinless! Wow! That's even INFINITELY BETTER than angels!

However, prophets and righteous faithful people are better than angels because they are humans who, while are capable of committing sin, they still managed to stay as far away from sin as possible!

Angels are simply incapable of being less than perfect in teir worship of God... they are incapable of committing any sins at all. There's no effort on their part.

That's why righteous faithful humans are much more beautiful creations than angels.

[Mohammed-W]

Why you asking me something you know?

wa salam

I never asked anything about sins in sayings as far as I remember. (ok now I get it, ok I was talking about the QUOTE, about afflictions, on topic of that! It was in that context (referring to the quote), not about all hadiths in general....).

wa salam

:lol: ^^

(salam)

i know a hadeeth (sunni) where the prophet SAW said the truth is like death

those hadeeth you said are like death and the only one to embrace it fully, is the one who longs for the hereafter and has no dislike for death.

Whoever leaves the path of affliction is ignoring the lamp of the believers, the beacon of those near to Allah, and the guide for those on the right path. There is no good in a slave who complains of a single trial preceded by thousands of blessings and followed by thousands of comforts. Whoever does not show the patience required in affliction is deprived of thankfulness in the blessings he receives. Similarly, whoever does not give the thankfulness owed for blessings is denied the patience owed in affliction. Whoever is denied both of them is an outcast.

Allah SWT tells us the hereafter (where we could be near to him) is better for us, and describes those truthful they struggle with their belongings and themselves. ...honestly we (muslims) are like yeah yeah yada yada yada as if we have a choice.

the truth cuts that or else if you embrace it then it expands the ayat around and inside our selves to the state of peace you describe. so this hadeeth above is painful or sweet.

in effect our sins are erased since this journey exposes your sin of choosing dunya over hereafter through willful ignorance,(the willful ignorance varies in degrees) it is always going on for everyone. pain erases it on all levels.

every time we break through the affliction we realize we were in 'sinful states' without the affliction the state would have been increased to bigger evident 'sins'.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[JimJam]

and furthermore the halal intercession of beings (whom Allah has approved) takes place when you are in the same realm on the day of judgment

and is absolutely necessary because ONLY theirs will be accepted. on the day of judgement i will be calling on every prophet and Ahl ul bayt to intercede for me... desperately, but it is haram to do it now since we are still alive and can ask directly. when we die we cannot speak for ourselves so we need it.... then.

I dont see any verse in the Quran that says " but it is haram to do it now since we are still alive and can ask directly. when we die we cannot speak for ourselves so we need it.... then"

You just think its haram but it isnt. Why are such views prevalent now, why weren't they prevalent in the 500 or so years of Abbasid rule when the Sunni madhabs were established

Hambali said in the book al-Mughni: "Stand beside the tomb of the Prophet (saws), and say: I have come to you for forgiveness of my sins and to seek your intercession with Allah"

they have the firm handhold Shaytain has despaired so he introduced shirk *forged duas* then sadly they are falling for something from such a high station. and the sunnis did not get on board (ahl ul bayt) so they have been left without the shirk to drown for not getting on the ahl ul bayt boat,

over all of this it is a test to see if we follow Allah SWT (clear Quran) or men, our God is a jealous God, regardless of sect.

I cannot give a full explanation that puts down 'shia' on a shia site.( and i wouldnt like to)

this is my pasteurized and half the story response. you know the rest.

maybe if they stopped we could have 313 :angel:

You, are, silly. You blindly take as Sahih, forged Hadith of well known partisan men like Abu Hurairah and partisan women like Ayesha who waged WAR on the Ahl-e-Bayt. Yet call our duas, left to us by our Imams from the Ahl-e-Bayt (whom we follow and you dont) as forged. It like the thief scolding a policeman

Edited January 8, 2010 by JimJam

[JimJam]

well, angels have power, a lot of power... and they were mentioned as intercessors in the Quran.

They have power because Allah GAVE them power. If their power was their own, that Allah would not be the one true absolute, omnipotent god. If their power was their own they would be demi-gods. All influence, all power you me have or anyone else has, its a boon given by Allah, he is the owner. He gives and he takes away. Dont you understand the meaning of Allah being ONE

[JimJam]

But their being fallible yet still able to stay as far away as possible from sin is FAR more beautiful than being infallible.

Thats what makes us call them masoom(sinless). They are not creatures of instinct. They are men of intelligence. They are flesh and blood humans but flesh and blood humans who just dont WANT to sin. Why, because they are truly wise, one who sees a open pot hole on the road will avoid it, but he who isnt paying attention will fall into it.

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands which he fulfilled; He said: "I will appoint thee an Imam to the nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But my promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (2:124)"

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as) defined ‘intelligence’ as that by which God is worshipped and Paradise earned.

He was then asked: What did Muawiyah posses?

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as): That was craftiness, a satanic trait which appears like intelligence but is not

Edited January 8, 2010 by JimJam

[IloveImamHussain]

this dua is shirk, clear as day.

Why is it shirk ?

I gave you the example this dua it is clear shirk

Sorry, my friend. If you wish to call it shirk, it is fine with us.

But we cannot see how it could be classified as shirk.

[JimJam]

Why is it shirk ?

Sorry, my friend. If you wish to call it shirk, it is fine with us.

But we cannot see how it could be classified as shirk.

First, they broadened (in their own minds) the meaning of the word "pray" to include ANY invocation. Then they started accusing EVERYBODY of shirk.

God is the true authority, everyone begs of God, even the Prophet(saws) and the Imams. Shirk is belief that there are other holders of power other than God. That is idol worship, the belief in a false divinity..

Tawasul is an attempt to gain the mercy of Allah, by asking him for the sake of our love for those slaves who he loves the most.

[BintAlHoda]

It is a SIN to think! Just keep reading the Quran like a parrot! ONLY they, the Sheiks, are allowed to handle this dangerous JOB of trying to understand the Quran! The Quran IS NOT for us to understand! The Quran is NOT easy to understand, even if the verses are very clear, we should ignore them and listen to our HOLY "scholars". We should ignore verses like these for example:

41:3

ÇáÓæÑÉ ÝÕáÊ ÂíÉ 3

ßöÊóÇÈñ ÝõÕøöáóÊú ÂíóÇÊõåõ ÞõÑúÂäðÇ ÚóÑóÈöíøðÇ áøöÞóæúãò íóÚúáóãõæäó

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:

come on....are you going to throw out the past 14 centuries of sunni scholarship too?

yes, the quran is 'plain'..... but that doesnt mean we can all go around interpreting it however we like. we have a verse against that too (the verse about muhkam and mutashabih)

it is very clear that it is wrong for people to interpret the quran according to personal opinion. or do you argue with ibn kathir, etc, and say they were all wron gtoo?

i'm not against you reading understanding and giving arguments...... but you should recognize ur knowledge is very limited, there are probably things u dont understand about the words, asbab al nuzul, etc.

again.... be humble and dont assume u understand everything about everything!

ps plz dont send me another strawman its annoying

[IloveImamHussain]

First, they broadened (in their own minds) the meaning of the word "pray" to include ANY invocation. Then they started accusing EVERYBODY of shirk.

Stating their assertions as definitions will not change the truth.

These guys have failed miserably in supporting their statements with rational arguments.

It looks as if they believe in quantity rather than quality.

But their spam will not help them win the argument.

Spammers think they can convince others by their spam.

But they are absolutely in the wrong.

I for one will continue to believe what I believe is the unadulterated truth.

Let them spam to their heart's content.

If they try and race ahead of you, just ignore them.

[BintAlHoda]

You, however, made a very basic mistake when you said:

This is only the worst type of Shirk... like I said Shirk is *sharing* anything of what is God's with anyone else. You do NOT have to go too far as to equate others with God in order for it to be called shirk.

really? who came up with that idea?

what about the attributes of God? we express various attributes of god. some of us are merciful, some of us are just, some of us are creative. of course we do not express these LIKE God does....... but it is an aspect of god in which we share. is that shirk?

You should, because their example of false worship was given in the Quran.

do u think catholic belief has stayed the same since 7th century AD and christians haven't thought any more about doctrine?

it is very simplistic to say that the catholic example of false worship is given in the quran... quran refers to christians in general and some aspects of christianity

but there is really no compelling reason why i need to study Catholicism to be a good muslim, sheesh! otherwise i would need to study all the ahlul kitab includng jews, zoroastrans, sabeans, and the polytheists, religion of firawn, religion of people of lut, etc, because they were all examples given in teh quran

yeah, but the Quran explained where Christians (then mostly Catholics) are extremely off the mark. (e.g. asking the Saints for intercession).

in any case, no one is asking saints for intercession here, so it's all good

I was explaining by way of a RELEVANT example. Anyway, if you recall the OP is a convert from Christianity... She opened this thread because she felt something was wrong... this whole intercession busines reminded her of what she did before becoming Muslim.

anyway as i must have said somewhere above people are free............ there is no obligaton on shia people to practice tawassul or even to believe in it, it is something people take from hadith and will accept or not accept. i personally accept it as do most shia people i know but if someone doesnt it is their free choice and we should be true to what we feel is correct

[individualist]

come on....are you going to throw out the past 14 centuries of sunni scholarship too?

yes, the quran is 'plain'..... but that doesnt mean we can all go around interpreting it however we like. we have a verse against that too (the verse about muhkam and mutashabih)

it is very clear that it is wrong for people to interpret the quran according to personal opinion. or do you argue with ibn kathir, etc, and say they were all wron gtoo?

i'm not against you reading understanding and giving arguments...... but you should recognize ur knowledge is very limited, there are probably things u dont understand about the words, asbab al nuzul, etc.

again.... be humble and dont assume u understand everything about everything!

ps plz dont send me another strawman its annoying

It's amazing how you chose to address only a tiny portion of my post and ignored the rest which already answers the argument you're trying to make.