Saying Ya Hussein?

[individualist]

Iraqi said to M-W

I agree. However the issue is, Individualist isnt trying to prove a concept. I am saying that Allah will do as He wills, and if He has set up a system of intercession, then thats it, there is no further discussion.

refer to #133... angels intercede and we can't pray to them for intercession. The idea that it's ok to pray to an intercessor for an intercession while it is shirk to pray to an "undesignated" intercessor, is quite laughable... it's as if you're saying God wants to give some of what is ONLY His to the designated intercessors but not to undesignated intercessors.

Is that why you think the Quran called Catholics to have committed shirk by praying to the Saints? Because the Saints are not designated intercessors? Because God does NOT want to give part of what is only His to the Saints, but He willingly shared what is only His with "designated" intercessors?

Individualist is trying however to say there is no system, and that any asking is shirk,

I said any asking to anyone who is beyond YOUR senses is prayer and prayer is worship --> shirk. I explained why in #133 as well as explained how this is based on Quran.

and then when we provide examples from authentic sources, he comes up with excuses.

Again, you're saying it's shirk ONLY if you asked undesiganted intercessors... you are saying that God is willing to give some of what is His to some people, but not just anyone.

However, after all this discussion, im normally the one who is on the side of the argument that individualist is normally on lol, however like I said my understanding of intercession in this life is not asking others per se, its just asking Allah in a way that please Him,

As long as you're praying to Him alone, no problem,

by doing good deeds,

of course

acknowledging those He gave authority,

Imams? Why not.

repenting for sins,

Of course.

learning Quran etc etc.

That would be WONDERFUL!

@ M-W

nice summary of the whole thread.

But there's one thing I don't understand... how can they so easily ignore the example of Catholics being called Mushriks for asking Saints for intercession?

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[individualist]

@ BintAlHoda

I accept your apology. However, your other etiqutte mistake is that you are being rude and it is very impolite (as well as inaccurate) to tell me that I don't know what shirk means.

I accept that is an honest mistake on your part

Just to remove any possible confusion, I was apologizing for using the word 'dear' when addressing you... my use of the word 'dear' was inappropriate and it made you rightly upset and I apologized for that.

You, however, made a very basic mistake when you said:

Let's use Arabic terminology since this is a Qur'anic discussion. In English, he might be 'praying'..... but in Arabic, this is NOT 'ibadah, which is adoration and glorification and service.It is also not 'shirk' - that is, assuming there is another Allah or another god-like power next to Allah.

This is only the worst type of Shirk... like I said Shirk is *sharing* anything of what is God's with anyone else. You do NOT have to go too far as to equate others with God in order for it to be called shirk.

Um.... again... no offense, but who died and made you The Ultimate Mufassir?

No one.

The Qur'an is a very deep book and not all commentators agree on the meaning.

This applies only to parts of it. But we're not discussing any vague verses here.

Use some humility and don't assume you understand the Qur'an and your opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong!!

I am a very humble person. :angel:

Nah, actually I was trying to tell the same thing to you.... just much more nicely......

what? LOL!

That's because, first of all, I don't know as much about Catholics as you seem to;

then learn about them.

and, second, I dont' care.

You should, because their example of false worship was given in the Quran.

So what if my view is similar to the Catholic view? (I don't know if it is or isn't) Does that make it wrong?

Yes.. because the Quran says it's wrong and its idolatry.

We believe Christianity is a revealed religion and so many ideas are similar between Christianity and Islam. Like the 10 Commandments, ethical teachings, etc. Belief that Jesus was divinely inspired (ok we have some differences there). But you get what I mean.

yeah, but the Quran explained where Christians (then mostly Catholics) are extremely off the mark. (e.g. asking the Saints for intercession).

From the little I know about Catholicism I dont think the Shia view is the same.

Here's a video.. listen carefully and see how their arguments sound very similar.

But I also don't really care,

you should.

because my religious beliefs have nothing to do with what Catholic people think and whether they disagree or agree with me.

you're very wrong. just listen to the video.

In fact... I might call your argument here a Straw Man!

I was explaining by way of a RELEVANT example. Anyway, if you recall the OP is a convert from Christianity... She opened this thread because she felt something was wrong... this whole intercession busines reminded her of what she did before becoming Muslim.

[iraqi_shia]

Solomon was in his court speaking to his servants (including Jinn)... of course you weren't aware of this type of relationship between Solomon and Jinns as his servants, until I pointed out the other verses for you.

I havent assumed anything, I simply copied and pasted the verse, you were saying you cant ask Jinn, I pasted a verse showing a Prophet asking Jinn.

In the first case, you'll be just delusional, but not Mushrik... and yes I am serious because Solomon was not Mushrik when he *ordered* the Jinn. The only difference between you ordering the Jinn and Solomon ordering the Jinn is that Solomon was actually given power over them while you got nothing... yet both of you are NOT Mushrik.

This seems to contradict your often quoted statements.

You did? when? I refuted every little angle you threw at my way... all of you.

You havent refuted anything, you brought your opinion to the table, which has been discredited several times. Then tried to say we are just like catholics, and then apply a really big straw man etc.

Heres an example:

You recently claim this:

No.. the underlying reason is that YOU can't hear them or see them. See post #133 which was a summary/update.. like I said, talking to you guys helped me learn new things and organize my thoughts... thanks.

This arguement was refuted many pages back, yet it makes a come back, if the underlying reason is you cant hear or see something, then you cant even pray to Allah.

I swear to God almighty, I am not aware I ignored any of your questions.

Heres one from a few pages back:

"is this shirk, Ya Allah I ask you by the truth of the Quran..."

refer to #133... angels intercede and we can't pray to them for intercession. The idea that it's ok to pray to an intercessor for an intercession while it is shirk to pray to an "undesignated" intercessor, is quite laughable... it's as if you're saying God wants to give some of what is ONLY His to the designated intercessors but not to undesignated intercessors.

Straw man. We are praying to Allah only. Heres another straw man for bonus points:

Again, you're saying it's shirk ONLY if you asked undesiganted intercessors... you are saying that God is willing to give some of what is His to some people, but not just anyone.

Try going back to what I have read, from pretty much page 1, or when ever i joined this madness. Allah must be the target of the request, only He has the power.

I feel like even if I copied and pasted your own words, you would still put out your default reply.

[individualist]

Iraqi, you are driving me crazy...

Anyway, I will discuss only one point I really can't believe you're still raising:

This arguement was refuted many pages back, yet it makes a come back, if the underlying reason is you cant hear or see something, then you cant even pray to Allah.

Argggghhhh!... why are you mixing things up? What I'm saying is if you ask anyone who is beyond your senses then you are praying to them.

Examples:

-1-Ask God? then you are praying to God.

-2-Ask Hussein (for an intercession)? then, you are praying to Hussein (for an intercession).

# 1 is OF COURSE permissible infact, it's a MUST!... # 2 shirk.

What's wrong with you, why do you have a problem here?

Does anyone else share Iraqi's objection to this?

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

@ M-W

nice summary of the whole thread.

But there's one thing I don't understand... how can they so easily ignore the example of Catholics being called Mushriks for asking Saints for intercession?

(salam)

they have the firm handhold Shaytain has despaired so he introduced shirk *forged duas* then sadly they are falling for something from such a high station. and the sunnis did not get on board (ahl ul bayt) so they have been left without the shirk to drown for not getting on the ahl ul bayt boat,

over all of this it is a test to see if we follow Allah SWT (clear Quran) or men, our God is a jealous God, regardless of sect.

I cannot give a full explanation that puts down 'shia' on a shia site.( and i wouldnt like to)

this is my pasteurized and half the story response. you know the rest.

maybe if they stopped we could have 313 :angel:

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[layman]

Human beings have spiritual and physical communication. Tawassul is a spiritual call.

Physical communication is limited to this physical world...what we can SENSE.

Spiritual communication is for the spiritual world...beyond space and time through our heart where we can hear, understand and see.

Our communication to the Shuhadas who are spiritually alive is through "spiritual communication".

Indvidiualist CANNOT understand this!... He has NEVER answer regarding the spiritual communication.

Layman

[Awakened]

(salam)

I've been thinking of the word "Shirk" which means to associate and this would imply "having with" or "alongside".

I would like to mention something about "Worship". If Catholics reverence they have for Saints is that of Worship, I really think we revere Mohammad (pbuh) a lot more whether we call him or not. Catholics believe all humans are sinful and can only be saved by Jesus, they have reverence for Saints, but they don't even see them as sinless or that they were chosen by God, or way above normal people. They simply honor them and ask them in the sense to honor their servitude to God and love for him and hope that their station will favor them with God (or hope in God's mercy through them).

Now if we look at "Worship", it's really about the degree of reverence we hold to something be such of high immensity that belongs to God alone with no partners.

The issue is for sure we revere Mohammad (pbuh) Nubuwa, Ascension, etc, more then Catholics revere Saints. I don't think this can be disputed.

So it's really hard to put it as Shirk. The verse of Mariam (as) doesn't necessarily prove the issue of intercession. Reading up on history, I read early Catholics called her as "Mother of God", so this might have to do with it. Also it might simply be about the station of Mariam (as), that if Isa (as) said this about himself, then it would imply the same about Mariam (as), since the Holy Spirit was in both, the light of the Injeel was in both, the word of God was with both, etc. Also it might be saying that your words that you said, were they saying this, but rather he was saying "by these words... I was only saying this and that"... (ie. they took my statements out of context and twisted it, and his words were both about himself and Mariam (as)).

Now I was thinking of the word "Ma Rabi" and it means I don't consider thing ALONG side him, so I don't CALL along side him. Also, we have to look contextually at phrases. This is context of whether there is more Gods aside then God or not. So this is what it meant, there is not WITH him. He is ALONE, SINGLE.

Also the concept of intercession was not simply pleading to God. They beleive that Lord of the universe had these beings that were somewhat on par with him and born out of him (which can be seen by verses say they equate with God) and that God delegated them authority and that people ought to worship them and it would be according to the Lord's pleasure.

So they would call them believing they were delegated to do what they want, so calling in these context was about believing that they can do what they want since God gave them that role.

Shafee I don't agree is simply about ADVOCATING, but it's to take part of one's destiny, or have a role and share with what us to occur. In reality, Quran says there is REALLY on e Shafee. There is many verses. This is would not make sense if it mean advocating for someone lower to someone higher meaning, because what it would mean that God is that...

Rather it said we have no Wali or Shafee aside from God. Also the shafee is not sharing in bad, it's in help, in bringing good, context.

In other words, the phrase "all praise belongs to Allah" refutes any shafee aside from Allah (swt), as well as there being any other God along side of him.

Now there are Angels (as) that are constantly trying to help souls. So this is why it's emphasized, that when it's said that God is the Sole helper and Sole Interceder, that it doesn't mean there is no causes. They are however acting by his permission. So in this context, it saying, it does not make sense to call them and rely on them instead of God. This is because all the help is from God and God is the Lord. This means yes God has delegated affairs (mudaberat Amra) but it's not like they decide or act according to any Glory apart from him, he is Sole help and helper you are getting.

Now when it says he would not command PRophets (as) and Angels (as) to be Arbab, it did not use the word Ilaah. Here is it means to see them to act according to something they can decide on their own. Now if you recall the Mushrikeen said 'they are our interceders" and they also believed and advocated a Waseela System, and God says he hasn't put any Waseela. (this meaning this type of interceding type).

Basically they were saying God put this system to indirect Worship of him, we only Worship them to bring us closer to God was their argument. Slowly here, they were leaving their equating, and then later when he would ask them whom is the Lord, they would say ofcourse Allah (swt) (yet not giving up their ways and worship of "Gods", but the truth was being shoved down their throats and they were retreating).

They didn't write away say "we worship them to worship God". This was when things were being made clear, but they were clearly first equating with God "then those whom disbelieve equate with their Lord...".

So we have to look at these were arguments to not submit, it was going back from EQUALS and SONS, to they are just interceders and we Worship them to bring us closer, to finally when they realized, yes we know the Lord of the Universe is much greater (but then a lot ofcourse simply did not want to leave the way of their fathers). At 1st it seemed ridicilous, what he makes all the Gods one God... and then later it became yeah yeah the One way greater God, but these Gods are for getting closer to that God.

And that was done also along side perfect humans being heightened even above Angels (as), and that they are no more then human, so it was brining people back to reality.

Now if you look at the verses, you will see this is really the context of the argument.

Now along side this was the issue of Isa (as) and Uzair (as). If we see a lot is emphasized on "no more then a Messenger" with Isa (as). or "he is only a servant whom we bestowed favor upon and made him an example to Bani-Israel".

This while if God was to take sons, he would have CHOSEN (perfered over immensely type meaning) from whom he created (ASTAFA), and we read about "they say Ar-Rahman has a son" rather they are Honorable servants... and if you look at that, it might even point that in sometime, "sons" with reference to God referred to this type meaning, not the type people were saying it now, as in they are somewhat on par with him type, they are GOd begoten type meaning.

In fact, to emphasize on this point, is that "Qarba" in Arabic is used for "kin relationship" yet "Muqarabeen" means what? This is the issue, maybe down the road, people then use that "closeness" in the family sense as in way to close sense that is on par with Shirk and equating with God.

Now we definetely don't do this with Imams (as). We don't think they are on even iota gram of God's Greatness. They are nothing when compared to him. You will never find christians says this about Isa (as). That relative to God, he is nothing, even though he said "the father whom is greater then I". Mushrikeen came to know that indeed GOD is absolute greater to the extent nothing can even put near his level, or have an iota of worth compared to his greatness.

Aside from this, was the issue that the POWER and Glory ALL of it belonged to God. So where they to see that it all belogns to God and God is such that there cannot exist more power then him, nor more glory then him, as he is the asbolute Greatest.

So there was many agruments and you can see also that they did not see that there was no power but God's, no glory but God's, they didn't have this view, which they were being told one day they willl see this. That indeed Power belonging to God all together.

So you can see their SHIRK was putting with God others. The message there is no "greatness" with God. There is no "power" with God. No interceder with God. There is just God. He is the Sole Shafee. The Sole Helper. The Blessed such are there is no blessings apart from him. The Glory such that there is no glory apart from Him.

But all this was also to emphasize NOT to call with him anyone, only call God, and also there was emphasis on how Isa (as) use to eat, and stuff like that. That they abided by the ways of the system God put.

Yes he did miracles, but at the end, by God's permission, but he still was to eat, etc....

So God the rule of the system, the writter of what will happen, allows what help in his system, etc, does not want us to rely and call other then him. So believers are described as solely relying on God.

Now if you look at words of Imam Sajad (as) taught to Abu Hamza, we are taught to say that God responds to us with no Shafee and there is emphasis not to call.

Also Imam Jaffar (as) says minimum of being grateful to God is to see God as the favorer with no attachment to the cause what so ever.

I will also have to talk about the importance of his chosen ones and their Spiritual Waseela, was mainly emphasized about whom they call to and the attraction of God through them. We are reminded of Allah (swt), come to know of Allah;s (swt) command, and the attraction to them being attraction to God. This is why "Tahwee" was said by Ibrahim (as).

The honor type love obedience should be for the sake of the CREATOR. We don't obey God and Ahlebayt (as) out of honoring authority of Ahlebayt (as) but that of God. In fact, if you read hadiths, to obey God for sake others, or pleasing others, is associating with God in that and is not acceptable.

Likewise, we should not not sin because it will cause grief to Messenger (saW) or do it cause he will see it, rather, we should not sin for the sake of God. There is possibly a lot of Shirk taught by Shia Speakers/local leaders.

To emphasize not to sin, they talk about how it grieves Imam so we should stop. Not talk about the importance of God and the obedience we owe him. This is very shameful behaviour.

Now I will relate this to "asking for Ahlebayt (as) to advocate on our behalf, for their high position with God...".

You see a problem with this, is that we praise ALONGSIDE God for what happens. It's about 'be fathlal Hussain" you will get this and that. Right? You here it in people mouth.

Of the spirits in Suratal Fatiha, is the issue of attributing all praise to God. Aside from the issue of glory, is the issue of what occurs. We don't say "by the fathal Angels" when we have spiritual aide, we see God and don't even for an iota attach to other then him. No one reading the verses of God helping with Angels has any attachment for the favor to the Angels (as)....

You see, ALL intercession was of this nature.

Now God says he will accept Tawba, Du'a, forgive whom asks forgivnes... ANd Shia Scholars thought ok, then what is the point of Tawasul? And they decided well it's faster.. I see this as belittling the holy supplications and this constant way of turning to God, that we are suppose to in fact be attracted to do, by the Chosen (as).

Like Saheefa Sajadiya, should make you to want to say "there is no interceder for me, so let your mercy intercede for me"....

Also, the intercession of Angels like how they helped in battle, this can be clearly shown to be SOLELY Allah's help.

This is true of Spiritual Wayferring. It's true God guides through the Imams whom guide by his command.

But you will see through a series of verses that Mohammad (pbuh) CANNOT decide whom to guide in this manner, it's up to Allah (swt).

This being the biggest intercession bigger then anything offered by anyone in this world, we should hope and find nothing closer to God then this intercession.

We read "And had they been pleased what they were given and said God is sufficient for us, soon Allah, as well as his Messenger, will give us out his grace"

"O had I wished I took a path with his Messenger".

You see this "with" and aide, this SHAFAA in our lives. The meaning to now what it is, is due to what transposed in history and what people come to think of as intercession.

Waseela nad Shafaa were one to one subjects, but neither of them meant now. Waseela as in the type discussed now is the very type said "God has not put a waseela". There is no delay in calling God sincerely nor has he made that calling Ahlebayt (as) will make it faster or that we need our needs to go through advocacy because God commanded us to call him and gives out of his generosity, and does befit him that he orders us to call him and rely on him, and hten he will not respond or delay if we call him in the way he has commnaded or in the supplications that were taught by Ahlebayt (as).

So I don't see a point in calling them for our needs to advocate. However, I see still possibility, that just as their relationships between people, family, mom, dad, sister, neighbout, and guest and friend, that is possible to take advantage of this with a human like ourselves, and say we are his guest, and just as we bless him we would expect blessing back. I don't see this as calling upon them for our affairs, or that our supplication will be delayed without going through them for it, or seeing them as part of destining things.

And from expereince with the each day of 7 for certain of Ahlebayt (as) (like monday for Hassan (as) and Hussain (as)), I recall the days I was not lazy and woke up doing this, I felt blessings coming down all day (I did this for some weeks and it was consitent), and I don't think God would mislead me like that. But someone said expereince is not proof, and this possible, it's possible that even that all the Jinn try to impose bad spiritness and hardship on my soul left me just so that I think it's due to this, so we don't know, I mean, is God going to say "no Sayateen you can't leave him alone cause he will think it's for this and that". But if it was Shirk, I would surely have been cursed instead right?

However, this maybe wrong, but I don't see it as on par with the other things.

Also, I think Ahlebayt (as) and Anbiya (as) help and waseela come without asking and I don't think it's even permisable to talk to them when you witness them but our reverence be quite and let them teach you/guide you/show you and only talk to God and also keep your focus on God and on how you should Worship and embrace the states.

I also one time did Nad Ali, but I want to say something to advise people. When you witness Ahlebayt (as) or Anbiya (as), it's not simply "bright", there is beautiful watery holiness felt from that, this is the type of seeing, also the scent is so wonderful, while many people (like western people in occult), they expereince "glory" from Jinns, but it's not that blessed holy water beauty light, it's in fact missing that, but has brightness (and you can't notice the impurity).. What makes me think it's wrong more then anything, is that I only one type did this... And recalling what I know of Ali (as) and what I witnessed of Ahleabyt (as) in dreams/experiences, I came to know it was not him, and it was a Jinn, and it was different because it was with me as inside me, and I recall it now, it moved me away, and this was while I was going through a lot of magic (I could feel the precense of sorcerers and evil spirits attacking) but I didn't notice then, but I then read Quran, and the Du'a taught by Imam Mahdi (as), and I would say "Taha" a lot an d"Taha you are the highest" and I went through a process. And also it was the first time I wasn't sure of what I was experiencing but now that I am in calm moment at peace, I can recall, and I can tell the difference of that with the pure blessed majesitc nice scenting cool watery yet loveful warmth of the light of Allah (swt) with glory/pride/beauty that is not that of only holiness and purity.

And this experience in fact makes me suspicious more of what Sufis and them teaching people to call for help of Saints and Prophets (as), and that along side the "Ilmel Huroof" that is like occult pracitces of ou masons and kabala mystic jews (which follow Seher), I am thinking more and more so that definetely we should never call for this.... it felt like I expereinced this.

They can appear with their spite and darkness to put u in pain and have the precense, they can also put clothes of glory, but you should not confuse them with Anbiya (as) and Angels (as) and Ahlebayt (as) whom you should feel a watery holiness and see states of Worship from patience states, to spirit of Glorifying gratefully....

I feel like this calms at times of striving for God sincerely, that God opens up doors of his help and opens doors of the sky and aides, it doesn't come with thinking you need to call others aside from God to respond.

This was particularly addressed to the sincere beloved Layman's points. God knows how much I love you Layman, I don't wish to oppose you or anyone nor cut off anyone from Waseela. But rather I beleive Quran has taught what keeps us from this guidance and what to do to gain it, and what to guard loosing there and loosing in times of waiting, and Taqwa is about guarding and cutting off all other then Him, especially in times of waiting, until there is no night after day and the drink is perpetual with peace upon peace, tranquility upon tranquility.

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[individualist]

The troll Layman strikes again!

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[Awakened]

The troll Layman strikes again!

Your not doing yourself any good with disrespecting someone people here highly respect.

If you want to continue to debate, you need to adopt some manners. Is this the "speak to him gentle word..." Sunna of the Nabi (saw)? "had you been harsh..." - let you recall the rest, it would be mean none of us would have Islam today if he talked with others as you talk.

And you are doing this with a Muwahid and sincere Muslim, let alone how you should address people in general.

You do this with almost everyone that debates with you strongly. What do you expect, everyone to role over right away and say yeah we are wrong?

Make your points and don't make things personal. People won't take people with an immature attitude seriously even if he/she's right.

wa salam

[individualist]

@ Mr. 14

I read the Mizan Tafsir of these verses:

The prophet sinned

48:2

That God may forgive you your sins of the past and those to follow; fulfil His favour to you; and guide you on the Straight Way;

47:19

Know, therefore, that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for your sin, and for the men and women who believe: for God knows how you move about and how you dwell in your homes.

40:55

Patiently, then, persevere: for the Promise of God is true: and ask forgiveness for your sin, and celebrate the Praises of your Lord in the evening and in the morning.

Other prophets sinned too:

Abraham sinned

26:82

And Who, I ardently hope, will forgive me my sin on the Day of Judgment.

Jonah sinned

21:87

And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no god save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.

Moses sinned

28:15-16

And he went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Satan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray. He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

David sinned

38:24-25

He (David) said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; And David guessed that We had tried him, and he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he bowed himself and fell down prostrate and repented. So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.

Adam sinned

2:37

Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful

I have to say that i was stunned. The author of Tafsir ALWAYS starts with the premise that prophets are infallible (this concept was appiled to Adam too) and then he tries to SEVERLY twist every clear word in these verses that mention sin or forgiving of sin.

CAN'T YOU SEE THE OBVIOUS?! IF THOSE AUTHORS ADMITTED THAT EVEN PROPHETS SINNED AS IT IS 100% CLEAR IN THE QURAN, THEN THE CONCEPT OF INFALLIBILITY OF IMAMS IS DESTROYED FOREVER AND ALONG WITH IT MOST OF THE POWER OVER THE PEOPLE: THAT YOU SHOULD BELIEVE WHATEVER YOUR MARJI' SAYS THAT IS SUPPOSEDLY BASED ON THE WORDS OF THE "INFALLIBLES".

Your not doing yourself any good with disrespecting someone people here highly respect.

If you want to continue to debate, you need to adopt some manners. Is this the "speak to him gentle word..." Sunna of the Nabi (saw)? "had you been harsh..." - let you recall the rest, it would be mean none of us would have Islam today if he talked with others as you talk.

And you are doing this with a Muwahid and sincere Muslim, let alone how you should address people in general.

You do this with almost everyone that debates with you strongly. What do you expect, everyone to role over right away and say yeah we are wrong?

Make your points and don't make things personal. People won't take people with an immature attitude seriously even if he/she's right.

wa salam

Awakened... you didn't see what he did.. I asked him a few simple questions and he kept avoiding them by asking me one weird question after the other... in the end he answered NONE of my questions. These were all simple yes/no questions... You do the same too, but at least you don't ask questions.... you just keep on talking and talking while saying nothing really.

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[Awakened]

The Topic of Ali (as) and Infallibility is not closed.

I discussed these verses and talked about some of the verses that we believe prove Ismaa, and then show what "sins" means with regards to the always in ALL-blessed states acting to his blessed command that is agreed upon by the Majority of Sunni Scholars and Sunni people, and unanimously agreed upon by the Shias scholars and Shia people.

I would suggest however to discuss that in another thread (particularity continue in that topic so we don't get in to repeats), as it's unrelated with the topic of this thread (and we shouldn't be going with these two completely seperate issues).

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Awakened]

Awakened... you didn't see what he did.. I asked him a few simple questions and he kept avoiding them by asking me one weird question after the other... in the end he answered NONE of my questions. These were all simple yes/no questions... You do the same too, but at least you don't ask questions.... you just keep on talking and talking while saying nothing really.

I think you should never ask yes/no questions again. You should learn to discuss and a lot of Quran is shown by composition of opposites "you did not throw when you threw but Allah threw" "you have besides him no Shafee or helper" "the Saliheen of the believers and the Angels, after that are helpers" and other verses of shafa you know about.

Take lesson from this "say: All of it (good and bad) is from Allah. So what is matter with these people that they do not understand a saying? Whatever good comes to you is from Allah and whatever evil comes to you, so that it is from yourself..."

Notice the "do not understand" and then a opposite...in fact Chistian Anti-Islam sites mention this amongst the contradictions, the irony is hilarious.

Tawheed was not taught by rigid speech of absolutes, but rather angled statements, even seemingly opposite, to bring the truth to the people which is neither eastern or western but the middle path and firm knowledge and faith.

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[individualist]

@ Awakened

Your super lame justification for the words "sins" and "forgiving sins" is the gist of the Mizan Tafsir regarding these verses.

Simply begin with the premise that prophets do not sin and then invent every possible way to hide the sun with your smallest finger.

Anyway, with you Awakened, I don't want to discuss anything... I don't have the patience nor the energy to break through one wall after another of your walls of text.

I think you should never ask yes/no questions again

Please, by all means... instead of your flood of words, if you want to talk to me, just ask me yes/no questions...

anyway, for people who are as evasive as yourself and your friend, such types of questions is the only way to expose your behavior.

How about I ask yu the same questions I asked your friend regarding the infallibility? Here:

1- Did Adam sin? yes/no.

2- Was he punished for his sin? yes/no.

3- Was he then forgiven for his sin? yes/no.

4- Is Adam infallible? yes/no.

5- You're saying Adam became a prophet after he had children. So was Adam infallible before he became a prophet? yes/no.

6- was Muhammed infallible BEFORE becoming a prophet? yes/no.

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

(from memory)

i read a saying from an imam here when someone asked how he was infallible /or was it purified..

he asked the man if he would walk down the streets naked, the man said no, he said Allah has made (i think he said sin and /or disobedience) as hateful to us as this is hateful to you so we do not do it. even though we could, we choose not to.

so there is no big mystery how it *works*.

sorry i do not know much but that is enough for anyone who has no idea and it is an insider perspective (from the imam)

the full implications would definitely need another topic started i think.

@ individualist

those yes no questions are hard to answer because it is about a dead prophet and his sin. i repeated words in (translations) quran to justify my chatter, since it feels wrong to answer from myself first.

its easier to say what Allah SWT says in my answer and explain what i think it means do you understand what i mean?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[Awakened]

Simply begin with the premise that prophets do not sin

Yes we begin with that premise and take absolute the statements in Quran that state that, without modifying them (as ALMOST all the time they like this meaning). I stated that pretty early in the discussion.

And we see the other verses in light of that.

You do the opposite. You assume SINS as in actual evil type sin, so you don't take the other verses as absolute like we do (and some I think can't even be seen differently).

And I showed that.

And I don't see how it's so lame. Quran says the curse is upon the Thalimeen, you think Adam (as) meant that type? So there is different meanings of the word, and why can't it be used by means of similarity for certain acts that are not really evil but Prophets (as) standard they say "sin" by the same meaning? It's Ehsan (goodness), it has different definitions, and different meanings.

When people think of "goodness", there is encompassing meaning. And there is truly pure only goodness according to Islam... And this a different meaning of "Ehsan" which is higher then minimum of Islam and Eman.

And you never replied to any points but just kept screaming that I am twisting clear verses and whining instead of addressing the points brought.

So you just like to talk and everyone to bow down to your words and if someone responds with arguments you can't address, you whine and turn to insults or dismissing it without addressing the points, as if there was none what so ever, no arguments what so ever.

May peace be upon you, and may you be guided to love of his Chosen Ones after the Seal of Messengers (saw), the family of Mohammed (saw).

"and verliy God with respect to his servants is aware, seeing. Then we inherited the book to those whom we chosen of our servants so of them (servants) is he whom is unjust to himself..."

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[individualist]

well, who cares what the imam *allegedly* said, when God in His book gave us one example after another of PROPHETS sinning, asking for forgiveness and being forgiven.

[Mohammed-W]

well, who cares what the imam *allegedly* said, when God in His book gave us one example after another of PROPHETS sinning, asking for forgiveness and being forgiven.

(salam)

posted so you have an idea of the concept you dont have to care.

[individualist]

ok... so you were explaining that it is claimed that technically they are humans (with ability to sin) but they hate sin so much to the point of being sinless! Wow! That's even INFINITELY BETTER than angels!

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[Awakened]

Salam

"Nay they are Honored Servants, they no not precede him in speech and by his command do they act."

"And he made be (totally) blessed wherever I may be..."

"O Nuh, he is not of your family, verily his act is not righteous..."

"And a total purity from us..."

"We have been given from all things.." (ie. including the blessed power and will of those whom "do not disobey Allah in what he has commanded")

"God desires to only keep away from you the uncleanness O people of the House and purifies you a perfect purification.

"Possessors of Power and Insight (definetly more power and might then mightl Angels (as) whom don't disobey God in what he has commanded them)

And Adam (as) was chosen, as in preferred way above, the Angels (as), so yes holy strong majestic totally-blessed tranquil souls like Nuh (as) are more perfect, more glorious, more better, and more sincere and firm and strong in Worshipping God then Angels (as).

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Mohammed-W]

ok... so you were explaining that it is claimed that technically they are humans (with ability to sin) but they hate sin so much to the point of being sinless! Wow! That's even INFINITELY BETTER than angels!

(salam)

err he was explaining how they (the families) are purified and made spotless by Allah SWT.(which is in the Quran)

as far as i know, if you accept they are purified family and ever wondered how ....

(and then there is the suffering that wipes out sins to)

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[individualist]

could you explain more M-W?

[Awakened]

(salam)

posted so you have an idea of the concept you dont have to care.

Salam Bro I've seen and used myself this reasoning and with the issue of bayana of Yusuf (as)....

But I have concluded while it is ugly and disgusting and they see the degree of it, this is not necessarily what keeps them away. It does keep them away, as in that is one reason, but let's say they did not see it like that.

Their love of God and morality will keep them from sinning as well.

This sort of reasoning I feel undermines the blessed Spirit of love and submission. Even if it all appeared beautiful, they would submit to their Lord and not sin due to the love of God in their hearts and the right of his obedience believed deeply in their holy majestic souls.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Awakened]

Some more verses:

"Your companion did not err, nor did he stray".

And we made the Imams whom guide by our Command due to that which they were patient regards, and they were sure of our Signs.

"nay, had you known with the sure knowledge.

you would have seen the hell.

Then you would have seen it with the sure eye."

".And what will make you know what Iliyin is? (it is a) book witnessed by those drawn close""

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[Mohammed-W]

could you explain more M-W?

(salam)

just basically it is in the quran about purified families the post awakened did shows some verses.

we have a situation where Allah SWT wants to have people to represent him, he chooses families these families need to not be attached to dunya need to be predisposed to Jennah, they need to be predisposed to everything that will reflect Allah SWT glory.

and Allah SWT will give them circumstance and restrict others so they can reflect guidance.

everybody already has this (kind of has that belief) about people chosen when they read the quran but also Allah denies them sins.

now get a human to describe this they may describe a demi god and take things to far.

i do not need to speculate further and ask if they do even small sins that would be being picky the concept is not to question to death it is to help us to do Allah SWT will.

if i was pressed to say if they sin i would just say it is not *impossible* to *imagine* but it hinders them in their job and leads us astray. Allah does not intend that, besides their suffering is to cleanse them (and us) of sin otherwise it would be punishment and unnecessary.

Their life is for Allah and for us, not for themselves

Salam Bro I've seen and used myself this reasoning and with the issue of bayana of Yusuf (as)....

But I have concluded while it is ugly and disgusting, this is not necessarily what keeps them away. It does keep them away, as in that is one reason, but let's say they did not see it like that.

Their love of God and morality will keep them from sinning as well.

This sort of reasoning I feel undermines the blessed Spirit of love and submission. Even if it all appeared beautiful, they would submit to their Lord and not sin due to the love of God in their hearts and the right of his obedience believed deeply in their holy majestic souls.

(salam)

you will find it the best example for the one who enquires as the man in the saying did... answers according to need. They did it all the time.

your point is so relevent to the topic though I hope others understand truly the sin is not always ugly and disgustingly presented.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[individualist]

And Adam was chosen, as in preferred way above, the Angels , so yes holy strong majestic totally-blessed tranquil souls like Nuh are more perfect, more glorious, more better, and more sincere and firm and strong in Worshipping God then Angels

Awakened,

I can't believe I'm still talking to you, but here goes.

Prophets and faithful righteous people, in general, are not better than angels because they're more perfect, more sincere, stronger and firmer in worshipping God... Angel's worship of God is already *perfectly* sincere and firm.

However, prophets and righteous faithful people are better than angels because they are humans who, while are capable of committing sin, they still managed to stay as far away from sin as possible!

Angels are simply incapable of being less than perfect in teir worship of God... they are incapable of committing any sins at all. There's no effort on their part.

That's why righteous faithful humans are much more beautiful creations than angels.

[14infallibles]

@ Mr. 14

I read the Mizan Tafsir of these verses:

The prophet sinned

48:2

That God may forgive you your sins of the past and those to follow; fulfil His favour to you; and guide you on the Straight Way;

47:19

Know, therefore, that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for your sin, and for the men and women who believe: for God knows how you move about and how you dwell in your homes.

40:55

Patiently, then, persevere: for the Promise of God is true: and ask forgiveness for your sin, and celebrate the Praises of your Lord in the evening and in the morning.

Other prophets sinned too:

Abraham sinned

26:82

And Who, I ardently hope, will forgive me my sin on the Day of Judgment.

Jonah sinned

21:87

And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no god save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.

Moses sinned

28:15-16

And he went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Satan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray. He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

David sinned

38:24-25

He (David) said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; And David guessed that We had tried him, and he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he bowed himself and fell down prostrate and repented. So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.

Adam sinned

2:37

Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother, I am typing in BOLD for a reason

Firstly, do not assume, no matter how "clear" the verse is.

[Qur'an 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

You can't simply give your own interpretation. You might say that the verse is clear. Well I reply by saying, how do you suddenly know the clear and unclear verses? You are not among those "firmly rooted in knowledge" and neither am I.

[side Note] I'm quite sure both you and I know who those "firmly rooted in knowledge" are.. :)

I have to say that i was stunned. The author of Tafsir ALWAYS starts with the premise that prophets are infallible (this concept was appiled to Adam too) and then he tries to SEVERLY twist every clear word in these verses that mention sin or forgiving of sin.

Awakened looks like he can help you here. Remember that we have reasons why we believe that Prophets are infallible. For the fourth (or third?) time, I ask you to please READ the books I gave you written by Sayyed Mujtaba Musavi Lari.. You know what? Just read the two about Prophethood and Imamate! As for him "twisting" words.... :no: Now I see why you call yourself an "individualist".

CAN'T YOU SEE THE OBVIOUS?! IF THOSE AUTHORS ADMITTED THAT EVEN PROPHETS SINNED AS IT IS 100% CLEAR IN THE QURAN, THEN THE CONCEPT OF INFALLIBILITY OF IMAMS IS DESTROYED FOREVER AND ALONG WITH IT MOST OF THE POWER OVER THE PEOPLE: THAT YOU SHOULD BELIEVE WHATEVER YOUR MARJI' SAYS THAT IS SUPPOSEDLY BASED ON THE WORDS OF THE "INFALLIBLES".

Individualist, this statement you have made is like a Christian claiming Muhammed (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå æÓáã) claimed he (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå æÓáã) was a Prophet to lower Jesus's (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) "true" position (astagfirullah). Come on, I am seeing many great arguments in many of your posts.. Don't disappoint me here

You know as much as I that this statement you have made is one unfounded on proof.

w/s

Çááåã Õ Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

[individualist]

@ awakened

do you actually memorize these verses?

@ M-W

The bottom line is: prophets are the best of men and as such their sins must be small.... as for Imams, etc... I have no opinion.

Edited January 8, 2010 by individualist

[AbdullaQ]

(salam)

After examining everything I know and am sure of, I am currently of the conclusion: Calling out to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) asking for him to make Istighfar for me, is the only permissible form of "call out". The Ayah I based this on is well known.

I found a great example in the Zeyarah al Jame3a

íÇæáí Çááå Åä Èíäì æÈíä Çááå ÐäæÈÇð áÇ íÃÊí ÚáíåÇ ÅáÇ ÑÖÇßã ¡ ÝÈÍÞ ãä ÇÆÊãäßã Úáì ÓÑå ¡ æÇÓÊÑÚÇßã ÃãÑ ÎáÞå ¡ æÞÑä ØÇÚÊßã ÈØÇÚÊå ¡ áãóøÇ ÇÓÊæåÈÊã ÐäæÈí ¡ æßäÊã ÔÝÚÇÆí¡ Åäí áßã ãØíÚ .

ãä ÃØÇÚßã ÝÞÏ ÃØÇÚ Çááå ¡ æãä ÚÕÇßã ÚÕì Çááå ¡ æãä ÃÍÈßã ÝÞÏ ÃÍÈ Çááå ¡ æãä ÃÈÛÖßã ÝÞÏ ÃÈÛÖ Çááå .

Çááåã Åäí áæ æÌÏÊ ÔÝÚÇÁ ÃÞÑÈ Åáíß ãä ãÍãÏ æÃåá ÈíÊå ÇáÃÎíÇÑ ÇáÃÆãÉ ÇáÃÈÑÇÑ áÌÚáÊåã ÔÝÚÇÆí ¡ ÝÈÍÞåã ÇáÐí ÃæÌÈÊ áåã Úáíß ¡ ÃÓÃáß Ãä ÊÏÎáäí Ýí ÌãáÉ ÇáÚÇÑÝíä Èåã æÈÍÞåã ¡ æÝí ÒãÑÉ ÇáãÑÌæíä áÔÝÇÚÊåã Åäß ÃÑÍã ÇáÑÇÍãíä . æÕáì Çááå Úáì ãÍãÏ æÂáå ÍÓÈäÇ Çááå æäÚã Çáæßíá

As for all other "call outs", I have YET to see proof of permissibility because I have YET to complete my search.

I mean, saying "Ya Ali, please ask Allah that I can have more rizq", is something I have yet to see Shia Proof of.

Inshallah this is clear to understand. May Allah guide all those whom seek the TRUTH.

Peace.

[14infallibles]

(salam)

After examining everything I know and am sure of, I am currently of the conclusion: Calling out to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) asking for him to make Istighfar for me, is the only permissible form of "call out". The Ayah I based this on is well known.

I found a great example in the Zeyarah al Jame3a

As for all other "call outs", I have YET to see proof of permissibility because I have YET to complete my search.

I mean, saying "Ya Ali, please ask Allah that I can have more rizq", is something I have yet to see Shia Proof of.

Inshallah this is clear to understand. May Allah guide all those whom seek the TRUTH.

Peace.

(salam)

May Allah help you and I as well as everyone else find knowledge about this issue

Inshallah tommorow I'm going to give my Sheikh individualist's arguments (again) and see what he says

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

[individualist]

@ Mr. 14

[Qur'an 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Believe me I almost never base my debates over any verses that are not decisively clear.

Anyway, I know your situation you LOVE the prophets and prophet Muhamed and Ahl AlBayt to death! Which is great! Believe me it's great! But their being fallible yet still able to stay as far away as possible from sin is FAR more beautiful than being infallible.

Their being fallible does NOT take away from their beauty, it ADDS to it! Think about it dear Mr. 14.. take some time and think about it.

[Awakened]

Also truly evil deeds are forms of unstable falsehood trees sprouted from a cursed tree. The dirty tree has been explained in Quran and the blessed pure chosen ones have always been from from any of the cursed tree.

Adam (as) was not inclined to any evil tree, it was a tree in paradise, and hence not a real sin. Also, keep in mind, the command could have been a silent command with in the soul, but he forgot it, and Satan whispered that command is just due to this and that (your afraid), and then he didn't trust the divine instinct that Khidr (as) acts upon for example, and according to Imam Jaffar (as), it was first time anyone told a false lie by swearing by God's name and that by the light of truthfulness in Adam (as), he did not suspect Iblees whom had worshipped God all these years, would be doing this and trust him. Outwardly he swore to them he was a sincere advisor and that he ought to eat from the tree (but the "God did not command" what whispered). There was outward swearing and suggestion, there was whispered, and Adam (as) there was a command but it was spoken from the Divine Command, and his attraction to Allah (swt) but Imam Jaffar (as) says it did not even to an iota diminish his chosen over status at all. It in fact benefit him in the long run.

There is many lessons for this, among them of need of divine Guidance from God and acting only to that, and also to be at distrust with your heart since Satan knows how to whisper through what we love and make us forget what we know and thus disobey... there is dangers in higher states like that of Adam (as), so what then of lower states like us?

We need guidance at all stages....

But to clear the pure never evil committing chosen Representative of God, Adam (as), here is the quote from Imam Jaffar (as):

ruthfulness is a light which radiates its reality in its own world: it is like the sun, from whose reality everything seeks light without any decrease occurring in this reality. A truthful person, in fact, is a man who believes every liar, due to the reality of his own truthfulness. It means that nothing which is opposed to truthfulness, nothing, even, which is not truthfulness, is permitted to coexist with it; just as happened with Adam, who believed Iblis when he lied because Iblis had sworn a false oath to him and there was no lying in Adam. Allah said,

وَلَمْ نَجِدْ لَهُ عَزْمًا

We did not find in him any determination. (20:115)

because Iblis originated something previously unknown, both outwardly and inwardly. Iblis will be gathered with his lie, and he will never benefit from the truthfulness of Adam.

Yet it benefited Adam that he believed the lie of Iblis, as Allah testified for him when He said that he was not constant in what was contrary to his custom. This really means that his being chosen was not at all diminished by Satan's lies.

Truthfulness is the attribute of the truthful. The reality of truthfulness demands that Allah purify His bondsman, as He mentioned regarding the truthfulness ‘Isa [a] on the Day of Reckoning. He indicated it by referring to the guiltlessness of the truthful men of the community of Muhammad, saying,

هَذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ الصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ

This is the day when their truth shall benefit the truthful ones. (5:119)

The Commander of the Faithful' said, 'Truthfulness is the sword of Allah in His heaven and earth: it cuts everything it touches.' If you want to know whether you are truthful or lying, then look into the truthfulness of what you mean and the conclusion of your claim. Then gauge them both according to a scale from Allah, as if you were present on the Day of Resurrection. Allah said,

وَالْوَزْنُ يَوْمَئِذٍ الْحَقُّ

And measuring out on that day will be just. (7:8)

If there is balance and harmony in what you mean, then your claim is successful, and your truthfulness is in the fact that the tongue does not differ from the heart, nor the heart from the tongue. The truthful person with this description is like the angel who draws out his soul; if the soul is not drawn out, then what is it to do?

No lying in Adam (as) means Adam (as) was fully sincere to God.

What happened to him and the injustice he did to himself was a crime from the sworn enemy of humanity! Instead of belittling this elect augst majestic pure perfect Soul, whom guided others in the ways of turning to God and humility, and opened doors to God and was the means towards him, and was a helper to the very Jinn the very race of Iblees is from , his sworn enemy!

Please don't belittle these August Chosen holy ones, and compare their states to ours, and their intentions and slips to ours. They are totally blessed and sincere in all stages. Yes he was moved from what he was in, but by deception, not on any lie on Adam (as) with his pledge to God and his loyaltly to him.

May God save us from belittling his beloved Chosen Ones, "be not like those whom spoke evil of Musa....and he was of worthy regard with God".

wa salam

Edited January 8, 2010 by Awakened

[14infallibles]

@ Mr. 14

[Qur'an 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Believe me I almost never base my debates over any verses that are not decisively clear.

Anyway, I know your situation you LOVE the prophets and prophet Muhamed and Ahl AlBayt to death! Which is great! Believe me it's great! But their being fallible yet still able to stay as far away as possible from sin is FAR more beautiful than being infallible.

Their being fallible does NOT take away from their beauty, it ADDS to it! Think about it dear Mr. 14.. take some time and think about it.

(salam)

I thank you a lot for your many advices. Pray for me please (yes this time, THAT'S halal tawassul) :)

But please read the books I told you to read, atleast so you understand why we say they're infallible

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

[AbdullaQ]

On another note: The Holy Prophets do not sin, nor do those whom Allah has chosen. Example, Imams, Lady Fatima, Lady Mariyam, Al Khedir, ...etc.

A VERY VERY clear example showing how they can not sin is the story of Moses and Al Khedir at the end of Surat Al Kahf. What Prophet Moses (a) thought was SIN was in fact an act of obedience to Allah. So I would be very careful about accusing the HONOUR of such holy people.

I do not wish to go further into detail since discussion here is out of Topic. I would prefer making a separate topic. Also, discussion with board members is really shallow. Many great scholars have written detailed books FULLY answering this topic. Those whom lack the patience to read books could also lack the patience to understand. Discussions can only teach us so much.

Peace.

Edited January 8, 2010 by AbdullaQ

[individualist]

@ AbdullaQ

Are you saying that calling out to anyone other than the prophet, to make Istighfar for you, is shirk? yes/no?

Note that if you say yes, then you are *AUTMOATICALLY* admitting that God chose to share something that is only His with the prophet and no one else... i.e. by answering the above question with yes, you are admitting that calling out to the prophet is Halal Shirk! While calling out to anyone else is Haram shirk! Which of course doesn't make any sense... I have already debunked the argument for permissibility of calling upon "designated" intercessors, only, in post # 133.

Please think carefully about what I have written above.

[Awakened]

I do not wish to go further into detail since discussion here is out of Topic. I would prefer making a separate topic. Also, discussion with board members is really shallow. Many great scholars have written detailed books FULLY answering this topic. Those whom lack the patience to read books could also lack the patience to understand. Discussions can only teach us so much.

This is true. I read Misbahal Hidayah and this gives you a scent to the holy states and worlds of Anbiya (as) and Imams (as) and shows Ismaa from a tasting way and you get to know of their existing higher souls and higher then that, and higher then that, and there is definetly infallible ones of humanity, and they are those specially chosen to guide.

Also it's all done on through the subject of God's Names and the great Name.

wa salam