Saying Ya Hussein?

[Awakened]

(salam)

I presented some different arguments then that of Individualist and why this type of calling seems to be the "Du'a" we been forbidden to do to other then God and also talked of other reasons of not asking those passed way for other then simply they are not in our senses and the issue of centralization that belongs to God Alone.

Kathim replied but didn't fully address my points (I appreciate his reply none the less). If someone can reply to them it would be appreciated.

It seems argument Qiyas to Qiyas is what is happening instead of addressing the route of the issue. (telephone, beyond senses, etc, this is all seems flawed reasoning).

I remembering I was discussing with Individualist and I was hoping we can discuss principles leading to why it's haram. the beyond senses I showed was flawed reasoning since Rasool (saw) can communicate to Messengers (as) according to Quran that are beyond physical senses...

I think we should all calm down and see the verses in context and talk of principles and reasons related to Tawheed and Worship and the issue of calling others in relation to that.

We can then reach conclusions and I think I some verses I been thinking (not sure) about do show it being wrong (ie. calling Ahlebayt (as) for this) as well as some hadiths, but there needs to be calm rational sincere discussion about this (no attachment to people, if we are all Mushriks, then we are, if we are all wrong, then we are, don't let attachment to people keep you from the truth).

wa salam

Edited January 6, 2010 by Awakened

[individualist]

@ awakened

I remembering I was discussing with Individualist and I was hoping we can discuss principles leading to why it's haram. the beyond senses I showed was flawed reasoning since Rasool (saw) can communicate to Messengers according to Quran that are beyond physical senses...

What's wrong with you? I already said it's OK to *greet* the prophet (even though he is beyond our senses) you just cannot *ask* him for anything because the mode of asking is the same mode you enter in when you're asking something from God.

anyway, like I explained before:

Now here's the evidence from the Quran, supporting the definition above: what is the common factor beween *asking* Jesus, Mary, the Saints, gods thought to live in statues and temples, angels and demons?

Ans: They are all beyond our senses. True, there are differences pertaining to each one of these case, but the common factor is: asking for something from someone who is beyond our senses, i.e. praying!

Ok, now please show me the verse where the prophet communicated with messengers (other than angels).. I am NOT saying this is haram, but I'm just curious because I don't remember where the prophet spoke to messengers in the Quran!

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[14infallibles]

(salam)

i agree with him!

masha Allah

(salam)

I guess there are certain people who, when seeing people that disagree with them, automatically stop considering their questions etc, and simply mark them "misguided".

I might be Shi'a, but individualist seems very knowledgable masha Allah; though I completely disagree with many things he says, such as his views on ayat-e-Tathir, that doesn't mean I can't learn a thing or two from him.

w/s

@ Mr. 14

I would like to make a small OFF TOPIC comment. I really hope you'd be patient and think about it.

When I say: "May God give you guidance by His love for Moses"... Is this OK or not?

Who am I praying to in this case? God and only God.

Am I asking/praying to Moses for anything? No.

Yet, this is idolatry via a *different* route... Here I am unwittingly associating God's ability to answer my prayer by His love for Moses. As if without His love for Moses, He cannot answer my prayer.

I know it's A LOT more difficult to make my point here. This case is a LOT trickier... and there's no example on this in the Quran.

Anyway, back to the topic. Like I said before, express your love for Ahl Bayt by praying FOR them.. pray FOR them every hour, every minute if you want... In the Quran, God gave us a way to express our love for the prophet by praying FOR him.

33:56

Åöäøó Çááøóåó æóãóáóÇÆößóÊóåõ íõÕóáøõæäó Úóáóì ÇáäøóÈöíøö íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÕóáøõæÇ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáøöãõæÇ ÊóÓúáöíãðÇ

God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask for blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.

(salam)

You're a bit vague on your point (about that "for your love of Moses" thing). Nonetheless, if it isn't attacked in the Qur'an, then why have you decided it's shirk?

Anyways, your post about asking being prayer is going to be printed again ;) And I'm going to make sure I understand the issue completely Insha Allah.

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

[individualist]

I might be Shi'a, but individualist seems very knowledgable masha Allah; though I completely disagree with many things he says, such as his views on ayat-e-Tathir, that doesn't mean I can't learn a thing or two from him.

well, did you read post#108 in that thread?

You're a bit vague on your point (about that "for your love of Moses" thing). Nonetheless, if it isn't attacked in the Qur'an, then why have you decided it's shirk?

like I said it's a very difficult topic. And what makes it even far more difficult is that there are no examples in the Quran concerning this...

So, I'll just shut up on this issue. :)

[14infallibles]

well, did you read post#108 in that thread?

like I said it's a very difficult topic. And what makes it even far more difficult is that there are no examples in the Quran concerning this...

So, I'll just shut up on this issue. :)

(salam)

Yes I did read that post :)

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

[Awakened]

What's wrong with you?

Calling: check

Asking/requesting something: check

By reasoning it would be the condemned Du'a.

"ask the Messengers that were sent before you, did we.."

And this showing Mohammad (pbuh) has sure knowledge of what he says and even can communicate with the Messengers, ofcourse it's rhetorical, he being that there is no need to even ask, but the point being they have no basis for their many gods while Mohammad (pbuh) has sure knowledge and is contact with the Unseen such that he can even ask Anbiya (as).

There he would simply asking to know something (but it's rhetorical but if impossible to ask them it would not make sense to say, in the rhetorical questions, it's implied he can ask them).

I'm not arguing against the conclusion, I'm simply showing the flaws in your argument.

Also keep in mind Shirk is of encompassing definitions to the extant that God says if we obey Sayateen or their Awliya, we would be doing Shirk. Of course, this is not the same Shirk discussed later.

I don't think people doing Tawasul are like people whom take other gods. However, I do believe it's wrong but to the extent that it's on par of that condemned Shirk.

[individualist]

(salam)

Yes I did read that post :)

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

Then why don't you discuss with me what you think is wrong with my argument... please post your opinion in that thread. :)

[individualist]

@ awakened

And this showing Mohammad has sure knowledge of what he says and even can communicate with the Messengers, ofcourse it's rhetorical, he being that there is no need to even ask, but the point being they have no basis for their many gods while Mohammad has sure knowledge and is contact with the Unseen such that he can even ask Anbiya .

There he would simply asking to know something (but it's rhetorical but if impossible to ask them it would not make sense to say, in the rhetorical questions, it's implied he can ask them).

So you're saying it's rhetorical yet literal :wacko:

And you're saying God shouldn't have called people praying to Mary/Saints as taking them for (lesser) gods/Lords. FYI, Shirk has many levels.

As for the rest, I didn't understand a thing... I have to say, you don't express yourself very well.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[Awakened]

@ awakened

So you're saying it's rhetorical yet literal :wacko:

And you're saying God shouldn't have called people praying for Mary/Saints as taking them for (lesser) gods/Lords. FYI, Shirk has many levels.

As for the rest, I didn't understand a thing... I have to say, you don't express yourself very well.

Well the need to ask them is rhetorical since it's a given of course not, the possibility that he can communicate to them and they would reply of course has to be there for the rhetorical argument to make sense. This is not really up to argument.

[Awakened]

I would also say like on forums with sunnis,Shia forums (and all forums, even Athiest forums) don't represent what MOST people of that belief do necessarily.

I dont know what most people do, but often, we see one person in real life do something, or a few, and we generalize.

But on forums, there is a forum culture that takes place not in real life.

For example, in real life, you will not see Sunnis doing takfeer or not saying Salams to Shias. On forums, this is very common, not only Salafis, but all type of Sunnis tend do this. The ones that believe we should greet or deem shia brothers feel weak in front of the bold ones whom speak out and no one opposes them.

I see this with pippin, a sunni (there is some numbers add to her name), calling a Shia a brother on ummah, people caught on to her and she said she did that by accident.

So just cause you see some people on forums and hardly anyone objecting, don't generalize. Often people feel weak to speak against those whom speak out boldly or what scholars say.

I'm also not saying the view of masses, I don't know them. But I just wanted to bring this up.

Also most Shias and Sunnis don't read all this stuff for or against Tawasul or even know what scholars say about it and a lot have never read Quran or have it read just a few times, not really going into in depth study.

So don't be haste to conclude on people and also let's do our best not to let our judgments be clouded by bias.

wa salam

Edited January 7, 2010 by Awakened

[14infallibles]

Then why don't you discuss with me what you think is wrong with my argument... please post your opinion in that thread. :)

(salam)

I would you rather read a few books on Imamate, and perhaps Prophethood written by our scholars. Imamate so you understand why we believe in the 12 Imams, and Prophethood so you can understand why prophets are infallible. For example, I once saw you simply stamp the Prophet as the one who frowned at the blind man. I ask you, who are you to say this and simply assume?? I strongly suggest the books I gave you written by Sayyed Mujtaba Musavi Lari; they're very good and filled with sources.

But be prepared for us to not only support ourselves using Qur'an, but also with hadith. Know that you can't simply throw away a hadith because it doesn't suit your personal views.

Finally, know that debating with people on a forum is not very effective. Almost all of us are not scholars, but are seeking knowledge (insha Allah), and so we might not be completely prepared to defend our religion. Our scholars, on the other hand, are ready (al-Hamdulillah).

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

[AbdullaQ]

(salam)

Individualist, you have made a big commotion. I dont have time right now, but I will spend some time tomorrow inshallah fully researching this issue. Keep in mind I am not a scholar, but an infant student. By Around this time tomorrow inshallah I would have posted my findings either supporting, or pointing at errors, or admitting my lack of knowledge. Inshallah my reply will be in concordance with the pleasure of Allah, and Inshallah we can all come to follow the path of Allah as he wants us to.

Until then, maybe someone knowledgeable can enlighten us. Please brothers, pray that Allah may benefit us from this thread to fully understand what he wishes us to do.

I will see you tomorrow inshallah.

Peace

[layman]

Conclusion:

I hope the point is clear. It does not matter who you are praying to or for what purpose you are praying. Prayer is only to God.

And if you want to express your love for Ahl AlBayt then pray FOR them and NEVER *ask* them for anything even if merely an intercession... because *asking* for an intercession from someone beyond our senses, be it Mary, the Saints, Ahl AlBayt or Angels is praying to those for an intercession.. and prayer is worship.

That is your conclusion and you can keep it to yourself.

Our conclusion:

Intercession is "spiritual communication" between the ummah and their walis beyond physical means such as "space and time". Allah swt allows intercession so that ummah can have and will have a communication to the Prophet and Imams so that the Ummah IS NOT CUT OFF to their Walis.

My walis are Allah swt, Muhammad and Ahlulbayt (as). If they are NOT connected to me, they are not my Walis. If there is no communication between my walis and me than the obedience to them and their message are NOT OBLIGATORY (waajib). Allah swt allow the communication through our heart, which is a spiritual mean, so that future generation will not feel left out by the Prophet and Imams (as) because they are physically dead. Those sincere followers of Islam with a clean heart can witness (see, hear, understand and communicate...in spiritual way) the Greatness of Allah as THE RABBil aalamin and the Wilayat of Muhammad and Ahlulbayt (as) as RASUL and IMAMs.

Mukmin are NOT deprived from spiritual communication...through the heart. But the Kuffar (even though he/she has muslim name such as Ibn Mul'jam, Shmir, Ibn Saad, Yazid...the rest) has physical intelligent, eyes, logics and reasoning, their heart (spiritual communication to the Haq) have been seal for good!. Their communication to spiritual realm is cut off.

[shakir 2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

[shakir 2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

Surely the verses above about the heart, hearing and eyes....by all mean not to be physical in nature. It is a form of spiritual communication to witness with understanding, listening and seeing. If the human power of spiritual communication to the truth is blocked...he is by a definition is a KUFFAR.

Therefore, A BELIEVER MUST have spiritual communication to the truth, and his/her heart must be clean enough to witness, meaning understand, hear and see the spiritual reality...

There area also people who don't understand spiritual communication and try to CUT OFF others from communicating to our Prophet and Imams by their own understanding (that they learned it from the way of Iblis), Allah swt has away their spiritual vision even though they have physical eyes....they are munafiq and follower of syaitan.

[shakir 2:8] And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers

[shakir 2:9] They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.

[shakir 2:10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.

[shakir 2:11] And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.

[shakir 2:12] Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.

[shakir 2:13] And when it is said to them: Believe as the people believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.

[shakir 2:14] And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.

[shakir 2:15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

[shakir 2:16] These are they who buy error for the right direction, so their bargain shall bring no gain, nor are they the followers of the right direction.

[shakir 2:17] Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.

Layman

[individualist]

(salam)

I would you rather read a few books on Imamate, and perhaps Prophethood written by our scholars. Imamate so you understand why we believe in the 12 Imams, and Prophethood so you can understand why prophets are infallible. For example, I once saw you simply stamp the Prophet as the one who frowned at the blind man. I ask you, who are you to say this and simply assume?? I strongly suggest the books I gave you written by Sayyed Mujtaba Musavi Lari; they're very good and filled with sources.

But be prepared for us to not only support ourselves using Qur'an, but also with hadith. Know that you can't simply throw away a hadith because it doesn't suit your personal views.

Finally, know that debating with people on a forum is not very effective. Almost all of us are not scholars, but are seeking knowledge (insha Allah), and so we might not be completely prepared to defend our religion. Our scholars, on the other hand, are ready (al-Hamdulillah).

w/s

اللهم صل على محمد وال محمد

I'm discussing PERFECTLY CLEAR verses... when the Quran says prophets like Jonah and Moses sinned and it even names their sins and it even says that God forgave their sins, then why do you think that I need to read any book on this issue?... the Quran says they sinned and God forgave their sins.. end of story.

By the way, do you believe Adam was a prophet? Did he sin? Was he punished for his sin? Was he then forgiven for his sin?

The answer to all these questions is YES.

Now, believing in the right of Imams to leadership, etc... these are minor issues to me... I see no problem if someone insists on believing in their right to leadership.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[individualist]

@ AbdullahQ

Waiting for your response dear.

@ layman

Thanks for sharing your conclusion with us... incidently, it does not answer any of the points I raised... try, for once, to answer my questions to you.

[individualist]

@ awakened

as always... I have a hard time trying to understand what you're saying.

[individualist]

@ layman

Please add this question to the list of questions you won't answer.

> Is it permissible if you asked your friends for protection from danger? Yes/No?

I guess the answer is obviously YES.

> Now, suppose you were in great danger (e.g. a bunch of thugs are preparing to attack you) and there was no one around to help you, but knowing that Jinns can see us from whence we can't see them, you call upon the GOOD Jinns and ask them to help you. Is this Shirk? Yes/No?

The answer is of course. YES. (72:6)

Please note the only difference between the two cases is that humans are within your senses while Jinns are NOT. That's the only difference and thus your asking the Jinns for help is in fact a prayer to them... Indeed, your mental attitude when *asking* anyone who is beyond your senses, for anything, is the same attitude when you ask God.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[Abdul Qaim]

@ layman

Please add this question to the list of questions you won't answer.

> Is it permissible if you asked your friends for protection from danger? Yes/No?

I guess the answer is obviously YES.

> Now, suppose you were in great danger (e.g. a bunch of thugs are preparing to attack you) and there was no one around to help you, but knowing that Jinns can see us from whence we can't see them, you call upon the GOOD Jinns and ask them to help you. Is this Shirk? Yes/No?

The answer is of course. YES. (72:6)

Please note the only difference between the two cases is that humans are within your senses while Jinns are NOT. That's the only difference and thus your asking the Jinns for help is in fact a prayer to them... Indeed, your mental attitude when *asking* anyone who is beyond your senses, for anything, is the same attitude when you ask God.

The argument you posit is fallacious as is your use of the Qur'anic ayah. Someone seeking the intercession of the Prophet (pbuh) is asking for him to pray to Allah on their behalf, knowing full well that the Prophet on his own has no power to effect his predicament. The ayah you quoted refers to men who asked Jinn for their direct, (meta)physical intervention.

The surah also mentions the mischief and excesses practiced by some amongst the Jinn. Among other things, it is a warning to those of mankind who practiced the dark arts in order to harness the power of the jinn. It reminds man that the jinn are ultimately powerless in comparison to the illimitable majesty of Allah.The fact that they are beyond our sensory perception is irrelevant to the debate at hand and you are simply interpreting the verse to suit your own personal beliefs. Rather ironic since it is precisely the sin that you accuse Shi'ah (or anyone that doesn't agree with you) of committing.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Abdul Qaim

[layman]

@ layman

Please add this question to the list of questions you won't answer.

> Is it permissible if you asked your friends for protection from danger? Yes/No?

I guess the answer is obviously YES.

> Now, suppose you were in great danger (e.g. a bunch of thugs are preparing to attack you) and there was no one around to help you, but knowing that Jinns can see us from whence we can't see them, you call upon the GOOD Jinns and ask them to help you. Is this Shirk? Yes/No?

The answer is of course. YES. (72:6)

Please note the only difference between the two cases is that humans are within your senses while Jinns are NOT. That's the only difference and thus your asking the Jinns for help is in fact a prayer to them... Indeed, your mental attitude when *asking* anyone who is beyond your senses, for anything, is the same attitude when you ask God.

First of all, if the thugs are physically attacking me... I will defend myself. I don't seek help for any Jinns or Angels. They are not my walis.

But I will call upon the Leader of Shuhada, Imam Hussain ... by remembering how Imam Hussain (as) fought and became shahid at Karbala for the cause of Allah swt.

That call will give me strength in my heart and will make me closer to Allah swt...With the spirit of Hussain in my heart, the hand of Hussain in my fist, insyaAllah, I will fight the thugs till the end.

HAVE YOU NOT SEEN HOW only handful of HIZBULLAH fighters DEFEATED Zionist Army?? With the cry of "YA HUSSAIN" they crushed the zionist terrrorists. This Hizbullah figthers became the hands of Al-Hussain in defending the Islamic dignity. Allahu Akbar!!!!

Layman

Edited January 7, 2010 by layman

[individualist]

@ Abdul Qaim

The argument you posit is fallacious as is your use of the Qur'anic ayah. Someone seeking the intercession of the Prophet is asking for him to pray to Allah on their behalf, knowing full well that the Prophet on his own has no power to effect his predicament.

Oh! So you conveniently missed ALL my questions I asked throughout this thread, including the ones in my summary/update post #133, and picked on this little one?

Can't you really see the point I'm trying to make? Why is it OK to ask my friends for protection, but not the Jinn? Note that what is being asked is the SAME in both cases. So why is it OK, in the first case, but not OK in the second case? You cannot answer by saying because you're not asking for an intercession because such an answer would automatically imply that asking my friends for protection is NOT allowed either... I can only ask my friends for intercession. Duh!

Or perhaps you're answer implies that asking for intercession is always Shirk unless if it's asked from the prophet (or one the "designated" intercessors)!!! So why is it not shirk if intercession is asked from the prophet, but shirk if asked from Mary? I'm asking for the SAME thing (intercession)... so why is it not shirk in case of the prophet, but shirk in case of Mary? Is it because the prophet *shares* this privilge of *prayer* with God?!!

The ayah you quoted refers to men who asked Jinn for their direct, (meta)physical intervention.

Ok, so? if God gave them these powers, then why can't I ask them to help me with what God gave them? There's no difference between asking for the physical power of my friends as opposed to the metaphysical power of Jinn. After all, God gave these powers to both my friends and the Jinns.

PLUS, the Jinn were *commanded* by Prophet Solomon both good and evil to serve him... in other words, Prophet Solomon *ordered* the Jinn to use their metaphysical powers. So, using metaphisical powers per se is NOT shirk... The difference lies in whether you are going to *ask* the Jinn to use their powers Or *order* them?

The surah also mentions the mischief and excesses practiced by some among the Jinn. Among other things, it is a warning to those of mankind who practiced the dark arts in order to harness the power of the jinn.

Ok, so are you saying that asking the help of bad Jinn is shirk? Good. So what about the good Jinn? Can I *ask* them for their help?

The fact that they are beyond our sensory perception is irrelevant

Oh yeah? So only because I'm asking for their metaphysical powers, it's shirk? But I just shown you that prophet Solomon was not a Mushrik even though he harnessed their metaphysical powers... the difference though is he *ordered* them, rather than *prayed* to them!!!!

and you are interpreting the verse to suit your own personal beliefs.

How so? True, strictly speaking the verse condemns asking the help of bad Jinn... so? are you saying I'm misinterpreting the verse because it's actually ok to ask the help of the "Good" Jinns?

Rather ironic since it is precisely the sin that you accuse Shi'ah (or anyone that doesn't agree with you) of committing.

:wacko: please, there's no comparison, besides, I didn't misuse the verse.

Anyway, after you're done answering my questions in this post, I hope you try to answer my unanswered questions in the other posts.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[individualist]

@ layman

Are you Awakened's twin?

I asked you two simple yes/no questions and you answered neither... but thank God, at least your answers are not as long as Awakened's, sparing me the frustration resulting from reading long twisted irrelevant responses only to discover that my questions weren't answered anywhere.

Oh, and I don't care to talk about politics in this thread... you can open a new thread elsewhere and we can both discuss Hezbollah and their unmatched "heroism" over there.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[BintAlHoda]

you really want me to deconstruct your 'argument' rather than just doing tawassul for you?

ok...........

*Asking* something (even if merely intercession) from someone who is beyond OUR senses is *praying*.

You are making an assumption about 'beyond our senses'. This again is due to our limited understanding of this physical world.

If I want, I can try to send an ESP message through mind-to-mind communication to someone in France. This is not 'praying' to the person. It is an attempt (albeit a failed attempt) to communicate.

There are things that are beyond our senses but are still aware of us. For instance, angels. Angels are beyond our senses. However, why can't we speak TO the angels? Do we have any reason think they can't hear us?

The Shaytan is beyond our senses, but Nabi Ibrahim (A) threw rocks at him. We can speak to the Shaytan if we want also and tell him to go away. However, this is not 'praying' to Satan.

Similarly, you discussed speaking to the deceased... if someone goes to the grave of a deceased love one and speaks to them ("I miss you. I feel sad that you're gone. Etc"), that is not PRAYING to the person, even though the person is beyond our senses. It is speaking to them with the desire to communicate (even though they are not in a position to respond).

Your "equation" in the above argument is false, and a false premise leads to a false argument.

This definition has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether this someone:

1- exists

2- is alive

3- can hear your asking

4- can respond

As long as this someone is beyond *your* senses, and you're *asking* them for something, then you are praying to them.

refuted above

Pagans thought that these rocks/temples provided physical body to their gods... and that's why the Quran mocked their stupidity (if these rocks are possessed by their souls they why are they immobile and mute). But the fact remains that pagans *asked* for favors from invisible gods, yet they took comfort in thinking these gods are extremely close to them and living in their statues and temples.

Big difference here - their 'invisible gods' dont exist.

If a Christian tries to do intercession through Jesus - well hey, at least Jesus exists.

Instead of phoning his father in Egypt, Adel goes to his room to meditate and call upon his father to *ask* him to pray for him. So according to the definition of prayer above, Adel is *praying* to his father to pray on his behalf.

Let's use Arabic terminology since this is a Qur'anic discussion. In English, he might be 'praying'..... but in Arabic, this is NOT 'ibadah, which is adoration and glorification and service.It is also not 'shirk' - that is, assuming there is another Allah or another god-like power next to Allah.

Similarly, if I ask angels for an intercession, and even though angels are intercessors according to Quran, then I am praying to them for an intercession... because angels are beyond my senses and thus when asking them, my mental attitude is similar to the attitude when I'm asking God, thus giving angels something that is God's ALONE!

Where in the Qur'an or hadith does it prohibit asking angels for intercession for God?

Again, I don't think it will be effective, because angels do not have emotion and act only according to command..... but I am not aware that it is prohibited?

Now here's the evidence from the Quran, supporting the definition above: what is the common factor beween *asking* Jesus, Mary, the Saints, gods thought to live in statues and temples, angels and demons?

Ans: They are all beyond our senses. True, there are differences pertaining to each one of these case, but the common factor is: asking for something from someone who is beyond our senses, i.e. praying!

Again, there is a big difference. Rocks and stones are one thing. But there is a lot to the unseen world and how it works that we don't know. You should allow yourself the possibility that your very strict view of what 'is' and 'isn't' according to your daily life is extremely limited. As humans, we don't even understand the human body, the ocean, or the universe - and the spiritual world is much more beyond our understanding.

There are 3 main types of idolatry by way of prayer:

1- calling upon gods (thought to live in statues). These gods don't even exist and pagans are reduced to calling upon rocks.

2- calling upon angels & demons. Angels of course exist, they are known to be intercessors, they probably can hear us and respond too. Jinn also exist and they hear us and can see us from whence we can't see them.

3- calling upon departed men. [these are idolized by praying to them]. They too exist, probably can hear us and respond too.

These are your definitions........ just because you are saying them doesn't make them true.

All 3 types of idolatry were mentioned in the Quran and all three types were mentioned within two frames:

I am not aware of reference to #2 but maybe i am just not thinking of it at this moment

1- Angels intercede regularly on our behalf. (53:26; 42:5; 40:7).

In fact this seems to support my point

And if you want to express your love for Ahl AlBayt then pray FOR them and NEVER *ask* them for anything even if merely an intercession... because *asking* for an intercession from someone beyond our senses, be it Mary, the Saints, Ahl AlBayt or Angels is praying to those for an intercession.. and prayer is worship.

I agree, prayer is to God and we shouldn't commit shirk by worshipping others.

But honestly...................................... you are never going to be able to convince people to stop doing tawassul through Ahlul Bayt (A), and that is because it works. If people didn't have experience centuries after centuries with success at this, they would have given up on it. You see some Sufi shrines where people used to go and seek barakah from deceased saints are deserted. No one goes there because it doesn't work. But you see that people have never given up on intercession through Ahl al-Bayt because they have seen miracles happen through it. And of course it is supported in SHi'i hadith so it's all good. (From a Shi'i perspective anyway of course)

So try it sometime!

As long as someone says they are not committing shirk by seeking the intercession of other spiritually aware beings.... just take them at their word for it. It's between them and God at that point.

[Mohammed-W]

(salam)

I remembering I was discussing with Individualist and I was hoping we can discuss principles leading to why it's haram.

I think we should all calm down and see the verses in context and talk of principles and reasons related to Tawheed and Worship and the issue of calling others in relation to that.

We can then reach conclusions and I think I some verses I been thinking (not sure) about do show it being wrong (ie. calling Ahlebayt (as) for this) as well as some hadiths, but there needs to be calm rational sincere discussion about this (no attachment to people, if we are all Mushriks, then we are, if we are all wrong, then we are, don't let attachment to people keep you from the truth).

wa salam

(salam)

i have put your post here to agree we need to move on...

what is idolatory?

what did the prophet come to eliminate?

why did they refuse do give up their idols when they already knew that Allah was the true God and creator?

what were their arguments for holding onto their idolatory?

and finally what did they reject in the shahada? (specifically)

these are things i think we are not agreed upon!

question for every one :) at least one shia could explain as briefly as possible, and of course everyone else who isnt.

(so we have a framework for idolatory and shirk.)

what i am consistantly seeing is a failure to address clear quran,then asking individualist to explain then saying his reasoning is false, could someone here address the Ayat and say why what they are not doing is shirk? is that so hard? :unsure:

BTW saying it works is the most fallacious statement!

ask any popstar or devil worshipper if it brings results the answer is a resounding YES!

actually when i think about it we have been taught a lot of *prayers* in the Quran did any one ever notice NOT ONE OF THEM TAKE THIS FORMAT??????

Edited January 7, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[individualist]

you really want me to deconstruct your 'argument' rather than just doing tawassul for you?

Oh! so you preferred to do tawasul for me rather than embarass me by destroying my arguments? Now, that was just too generous of you!

You are making an assumption about 'beyond our senses'. This again is due to our limited understanding of this physical world.

I explained the basis for my "assumption", both by using examples from the Quran and common sense.. refer to my post again please.

If I want, I can try to send an ESP message through mind-to-mind communication to someone in France. This is not 'praying' to the person. It is an attempt (albeit a failed attempt) to communicate.

Strawman#1. Again, you ignored that I specifically singled out the verb: *to ask*, in the sense of "to make a request*. Besides, if you are indeed well trained at telepathy and can communicate with another person via this route, then this no different from me communicating with you via internet or anything like that...

While we are communicating via internet, non of our 5 senses are involved (can't see each other, can't hear each other, etc)... yet, we are connected through this electronic medium... If you think you can establish a telepathic medium between two people.. then they are connected via their brains... so there's no problem in this case either.

As long as the other side can make contact with you, then they are not among the unseen anymore.

There are things that are beyond our senses but are still aware of us. For instance, angels. Angels are beyond our senses. However, why can't we speak TO the angels? Do we have any reason think they can't hear us?

Strawman#2. Again, completely ignoring my revised/summarized post. This has nothing to do with the entity being asked. It does not matter whether they exist/can hear/can respond.... the point is: can YOU hear them respond to you?

The Shaytan is beyond our senses, but Nabi Ibrahim (A) threw rocks at him. We can speak to the Shaytan if we want also and tell him to go away. However, this is not 'praying' to Satan.

Strawman#3 And I never made such a claim.. .you keep mixing things up... I said only if you *ask* (as in make a humble request) someone who is beyond your senses, then you're praying to them...

Similarly, you discussed speaking to the deceased... if someone goes to the grave of a deceased love one and speaks to them ("I miss you. I feel sad that you're gone. Etc"), that is not PRAYING to the person,even though the person is beyond our senses. It is speaking to them with the desire to communicate (even though they are not in a position to respond).

Strawman#4. What you describe is permissable... apparently you haven't read what I wrote? Just don't *ask* the deceased for a favor, albeit an intercession.

again, like I said you can say anything except *ask* (make a request) of the one beyond your senses.

Your "equation" in the above argument is false, and a false premise leads to a false argument.

All your arguments are false because all of them, so far, are strawman.

refuted above

Did you even read anything, or just glanced through?

Big difference here - their 'invisible gods' dont exist.

If a Christian tries to do intercession through Jesus - well hey, at least Jesus exists.

Strawman # 5. You're not reading!

Let's use Arabic terminology since this is a Qur'anic discussion. In English, he might be 'praying'..... but in Arabic, this is NOT 'ibadah, which is adoration and glorification and service.It is also not 'shirk' - that is, assuming there is another Allah or another god-like power next to Allah.

Dear, you need basic level lectures on Islam. Shirk is *sharing* anything of what is God's with anyone else. You do NOT have to equate others with God in order for it to be called shirk.

Where in the Qur'an or hadith does it prohibit asking angels for intercession for God?

Again, I don't think it will be effective, because angels do not have emotion and act only according to command..... but I am not aware that it is prohibited?

like I explained numerous many times, asking angels is praying to them... anyway, angels' intercession was mentioned in 3 places and yet no order of praying to them for an intercession?

In any case, the Quran DID give an example where Christians (then mostly Cathloics) were condemned for their worship of Mary and the Saints... Catholics are very angry at the Quran and at *other Christians* for accusing them of worshipping Mary/the Saints... they argue that they only ask for their intercession. They use your argument. You agree with Catholics.

Again, there is a big difference. Rocks and stones are one thing.

Strawman #6. I already explained that there are many levels of shirk. Just like there are many levels of Kufr (e,g. a pagan is a million times less kafir than an atheist.)

But there is a lot to the unseen world and how it works that we don't know. You should allow yourself the possibility that your very strict view of what 'is' and 'isn't' according to your daily life is extremely limited. As humans, we don't even understand the human body, the ocean, or the universe - and the spiritual world is much more beyond our understanding.

Repeating your strawman#2.

These are your definitions........ just because you are saying them doesn't make them true.

What? no refutations? just a statement? how about throwing some more logical fallacies at me?

I am not aware of reference to #2 but maybe i am just not thinking of it at this moment

Men praying to Jinn, you mean?

In fact this seems to support my point

I repeat:

angels' intercession was mentioned in 3 places and yet no order of praying to them for intercession?

In any case, the Quran gave an example where Christians (then mostly Cathloics) were condemned for their worship of Mary and the Saints... Catholics are very angry at the Quran and at other Christians for accusing them of worshipping Mary/the Saints... they argue that they only ask for their intercession. They use your argument. You agree with Catholics.

[continued]

But honestly...................................... you are never going to be able to convince people to stop doing tawassul through Ahlul Bayt (A), and that is because it works. If people didn't have experience centuries after centuries with success at this, they would have given up on it.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!! Well then, I might actually convert to Chritianity... Christians are among the most prosperous people on the planet...

You see some Sufi shrines where people used to go and seek barakah from deceased saints are deserted. No one goes there because it doesn't work.

Oh! They must have all converted to Shiism, then!

But you see that people have never given up on intercession through Ahl al-Bayt because they have seen miracles happen through it.

Miracles? Like the miracles reported by many catholics?

And of course it is supported in SHi'i hadith so it's all good. (From a Shi'i perspective anyway of course).

Appealing to authority (logical fallacy # 7)

[qute]So try it sometime! [/qute]

Hell no!

[qute]As long as someone says they are not committing shirk by seeking the intercession of other spiritually aware beings.... just take them at their word for it. It's between them and God at that point.[/qute]

Same exact words of Catholics.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[layman]

@ layman

Are you Awakened's twin?

I asked you two simple yes/no questions and you answered neither... but thank God, at least your answers are not as long as Awakened's, sparing me the frustration resulting from reading long twisted irrelevant responses only to discover that my questions weren't answered anywhere.

You seem not to understand how we answered your remarks. We perfectly understood your statements and your logics because we have gone through the same process before.

If i follow my pure logic and disregard my spiritual existent, then I would follow 100% what you have said with no question ask. You will be my GURU and I will be your student.

Fortunately, I come to know Allah swt and the Greatness of Allah swt through my Prophet and Imam helps, beyond all the books that I have read in my life.

My Prophet and Imams make me understand that Allah swt is Everything...and it is beyond words to describe. If My Prophet and Imams is my sources to know Allah swt and getting closer to HIM. Why should I abandon them and listen to you????

Oh, and I don't care to talk about politics in this thread... you can open a new thread elsewhere and we can both discuss Hezbollah and their unmatched "heroism" over there.

I am not talking about politics or heroism. I am talking about tawassul by saying Ya Hussein (the topic of this thread). By making the calling of "Ya Hussain" will make the heart of the believer stronger to fight in the way of Allah swt... May Allah swt transform our heart to be as the heart of Hussain so that we can fight the oppressors wherever they are!!!! This was happened to the zionist war thugs who were defeated by a few muslim fighters who clearly believed in calling "Ya Hussain" to strengthen their fighting spirit.

You asked me this

> Now, suppose you were in great danger (e.g. a bunch of thugs are preparing to attack you) and there was no one around to help you, but knowing that Jinns can see us from whence we can't see them, you call upon the GOOD Jinns and ask them to help you. Is this Shirk? Yes/No?

I can't answer you yes OR no because I have never call for Jinns in my life. In the past, I have only called for help from my Prophet and Imams knowing very well that they can intercede by Permission of Allah swt.. And I have witnessed the results.

Therefore, I will be a FOOL to believe in you who are suggesting to me to by-pass my Prophet and Imams. My Prophet and Imams know better in Qur'an and in showing me way to Allah swt. And they can do it DIRECTLY by permission of Allah swt. They are not disconnected from me and they are alive spiritually.

Hold on to Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt...you will NEVER go astray!!...

Layman

[Mohammed-W]

(bismillah)

" Most of them believe not in Allah except that they attribute partners unto Him" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 12, Verse 106"

what does this mean?

"Verily whosoever sets up partners in worship with God, then God Has forbidden paradise for him and the fire will be his abode" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, Verse 72

what does this mean?

" Say: Tell me then, the things that you invoke besides Allah - if Allah intended some harm for me, could they remove His harm, or if He (Allah) intended some mercy for me, could they withhold His mercy? Say: Sufficient for me is Allah; in Him those who trust must put their trust." The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 39, Verse 38

what does this mean?

"And invoke not besides Allah any that will neither profit you nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the polytheists and wrong doers. And if Allah touches you with hurt, there is none who can remove it but He; and if He intends any good for you, there is none who can repel His favours which He causes it to reach whomsoever of His slaves He wills. And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 10, Verses 106-107

what does this mean?

"Verily God forgives not setting up partners in worship with Him. But He forgives whom He pleases, sins other than that (shirk)" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 4, Verse 116

what does this mean?

3:64 Say, “O People of the Book! Let us come to a mutual agreement, that we shall worship and obey none but God. That neither shall we ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him, nor shall we take human beings from among ourselves as our lords beside God.” And if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that it is we who have surrendered ourselves unto Him.”

what does this mean?

3:80 Nor would he instruct you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords and patrons. Would he command you to disbelieve after you have surrendered to Allah?

what does this mean?

9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God. There is no god but He. Praise and Glory to Him, He is far too Glorious for what they ascribe to Him

what does this mean?

18:110 Say (O Prophet), "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It is revealed to me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward to meeting His Sustainer, let him do works that help others, and let him admit no one as partner in the service of his Sustainer. ”

what does this mean?

6:14 Say, “Shall I take for my master other than Allah Who is the Initiator of the heavens and the earth? And He provides all without return. Feeds but is not fed.” Say, “ I have been commanded to be the foremost among those who surrender to Him and ascribe not divinity besides Him.”

what does this mean?

7:189 (The Message encompasses life in its totality.) Recall that Allah created life from a single life cell, then made male and female cells, and then shaped you into human beings, males and females. He designed it such that man might incline with love towards the woman. When he gets intimate with her, she carries a light load that she can hardly notice. As she grows heavy with the child, they both implore Allah, their Lord, “If you indeed grant us a healthy baby, we shall certainly be among the grateful.”

7:190 But as soon as He grants them a sound baby, they begin to ascribe to other powers beside Him a share in bringing about what He has granted them. Exalted is He, High Above all that they associate with Him.

7:191 Do they ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?

7:192 And they cannot help them, nor can they help themselves.

7:193 When you invite them to the Guidance, they follow you not. It is the same for you whether you invite them or remain silent.

7:194 Those whom you call upon besides Allah, [such as mystics and saints], are people like you. Go ahead and call upon them, let them respond by helping you if you are true in your belief.

7:195 Do the idols have feet to walk, hands to hold, eyes to see and ears to hear? Tell the opponents of the Message, "Call upon your idols and your so-called partners of Allah, contrive what you can, and give me no respite.

7:196 My Protecting Friend [Wali] is Allah Who has revealed this Book, and He befriends the righteous.”

7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.

7:198 Such people are lost in their reverence of false deities. When you invite them to Guidance, they hear without listening and you see them looking at you, but they see not.

28:87 And let them not divert you from Allah's Revelations after they have been sent down unto you. But, invite people to your Lord and be not among Mushrikeen.

28:88

call not upon gods side by side with Allah. There is no god but He. Everything is mortal except His Eternal Self. To Him belong all Governance and all Judgment, and unto Him you shall be returned.

34:22 Say, “Call upon those whom you imagine beside Allah! They have not an atom’s weight of power either in the heavens or in the earth, nor have they any share in either, nor does He need any of them as a helper.”

what does this mean?

30:31 Turn unto Him alone then, and be mindful of Him, and establish the Divine System and be not of the MUSHRIKEEN who ascribe authorities along with Him. (2:213).

what does this mean?

O Abu Ja’far, O Muhammad, son of ‘Ali, O knowledgeable one, O descendant of the Messenger of Allah, O decisive argument of Allah over mankind, O our chief, O our master, We turn towards thee, seek thy intercession and advocacy before Allah, we put before you our open need, O intimate of Allah, Stand by us when Allah sits in judgement over us.

what does this mean?

Edited January 7, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[individualist]

@ Layman

is that your refutation? I have to believe in books (with teachings contradicting Quran) that were *supposedly* written by your Imams?

But Sunnis tell me that these books are all forgeries... of course, I don't have to take their word for it... because in light of the Quran, I can attest to the fact that your main (different) beliefs (infallibility of imams, wives aren't among Ahl AlBayt and tawasul) are all forgeries.

In any case, the common ground is Quran.. that's the only source you can use to argue for your religious beliefs when debating with someone outside your sect... learn basic debating skills please.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[layman]

@ Layman

is that your refutation? I have to believe in books (with teachings contradicting Quran) that were *supposedly* written by your Imams?

But Sunnis tell me that these books are all forgeries... of course, I don't have to take their word for it... because in light of the Quran, I can attest to the fact that your main (different) beliefs (infallibility of imams, wives aren't among Ahl AlBayt and tawasul) are all forgeries.

In any case, the common ground is Quran.. that's the only source you can use to argue for your religious beliefs when debating with someone outside your sect... learn basic debating skills please.

Your can't even define correctly a simple faculty that exist in yourself which is the "heart/qalb' ...according to qur'an...so what common ground do we have?

[Mohammed-W]

Your can't even define correctly a simple faculty that exist in yourself which is the "heart/qalb' ...according to qur'an...so what common ground do we have?

quran

[individualist]

@ M-W

Thanks a lot for these verses.. I was looking for one in particular, 3:80. So, like Cathloics, they argue since God named certain intercessors (e.g. angels) then praying to "designated" intercessors for an intercession is NOT shirk! Really? But if you are praying to Mary for an intercession, because she is not designated as an intercessor, then you're committing shirk? So we are allowed to *PRAY* (for intercession) to some (e.g. Gabriel) but not the others? The Quran said pray to no one except God.

This has nothing to do with Mary/the Saints being designated intercessors or not... they prayed for intercession and that's why they were considered to have committed shirk.

Anyway, let me highlight this verse:

3:80

æóáÇó íóÃúãõÑóßõãú Ãóä ÊóÊøóÎöÐõæÇú ÇáúãóáÇóÆößóÉó æóÇáäøöÈöíøöíúäó ÃóÑúÈóÇÈðÇ ÃóíóÃúãõÑõßõã ÈöÇáúßõÝúÑö ÈóÚúÏó ÅöÐú ÃóäÊõã ãøõÓúáöãõæäó

Nor would he instruct you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords and patrons. Would he command you to disbelieve after you have surrendered to Allah?

Thanks M-W!

[layman]

quran

We don't have common intepretation of qur'an. I can't rely on you or individualist to interprete the Qur'an for us. If anyone wants to refute sunnis...use what the books that the sunnis believe in.

Use the words of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt to refute us because they are the interpretors of Qur'an.

Layman

Edited January 7, 2010 by layman

[individualist]

We don't have common intepretation of qur'an.

Of course you don't! If even verses saying in UTTERLY CLEAR language that prophets like Moses/Jonah/Abraham/Adam/Muhammed sinned... and were forgiven their sins and in some cases the sins were even named (like Adam isobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree), you'd still deny that prophets sinned! Of course you have to deny it, because if evenprophets are NOT infallibles, then there are NO infallibles!

When God gives examples in the Quran on human idols (e.g. Mary/ the Saints, who Catholics asked for their intercession), then you'd still so stubbornly argue that maybe they were not "designated" intercessors, as if this changes anything! What makes praying to "designated" intercessors NOT shirk? Prayer is prayer.

Anyway, why do I even bother when question after question, mostly simple yes/no questions are never answered!

You now what... I guess I'll repare a list of all the questions I asked and you never answered.

Edited January 7, 2010 by individualist

[layman]

Anyway, let me highlight this verse:

3:80

æóáÇó íóÃúãõÑóßõãú Ãóä ÊóÊøóÎöÐõæÇú ÇáúãóáÇóÆößóÉó æóÇáäøöÈöíøöíúäó ÃóÑúÈóÇÈðÇ ÃóíóÃúãõÑõßõã ÈöÇáúßõÝúÑö ÈóÚúÏó ÅöÐú ÃóäÊõã ãøõÓúáöãõæäó

Nor would he instruct you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords and patrons. Would he command you to disbelieve after you have surrendered to Allah?

Thanks M-W!

ALL Prophets asked their ummah to worship Allah swt and NOT to worship angels and themselves. NO muslims will believe that Angels and Prophet are The Rabb and to forget Allah swt.

That will not prevent the Prophets to keep reminding the same issue to their ummah after their physical death through spiritual means.

Layman

[Mohammed-W]

We don't have common intepretation of qur'an. I can't rely on you or individualist to interprete the Qur'an for us. If anyone wants to refute sunnis...use what the books that the sunnis believe in.

Use the words of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt to refute us because they are the interpretors of Qur'an.

Layman

interperet??

what does this mean? is interpretation?

OK i suppose if you say so. :huh:

i guess whatever you say is true end of story. :unsure:

Surely Allah SWT speaks the truth

.....I think or am i interpreting again? :cry:

Edited January 7, 2010 by Mohammed-W

[layman]

Of course you don't! If even verses saying in UTTERLY CLEAR language that prophets like Moses/Jonah/Abraham/Adam/Muhammed sinned... and were forgiven their sins and in some cases the sins were even named (like Adam isobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree), you'd still deny that prophets sinned! Of course you have to deny it, because if evenprophets are NOT infallibles, then there are NO infallibles!

When God gives examples in the Quran on human idols (e.g. Mary/ the Saints, who Catholics asked for their intercession), then you'd still so stubbornly argue that maybe they were not "designated" intercessors, as if this changes anything! What makes praying to "designated" intercessors NOT shirk? Prayer is prayer.

Anyway, why do I even bother when question after question, mostly simple yes/no questions are never answered!

You now what... I guess I'll repare a list of all the questions I asked and you never answered.

Please list all the mistakes so we can discuss .... let take Adam for the first one.

Layman

Edited January 7, 2010 by layman