Saying Ya Hussein?

[AkbarHassan]

When Allah (swt) told the angels to bow down to Adam, they did so, that's how Shaitaan came to be, by refusing..They were worshiping Allah through the messenger he sent, not Adam. Same concept applies.

يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ارْتَضَى وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِ مُشْفِقُونَ {28}

[shakir 21:28] He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

Edited January 10, 2010 by AkbarHassan

[individualist]

When Allah (swt) told the angels to bow down to Adam, they did so, that's how Shaitaan came to be, by refusing..They were worshiping Allah through the messenger he sent, not Adam. Same concept applies.

íóÚúáóãõ ãóÇ Èóíúäó ÃóíúÏöíåöãú æóãóÇ ÎóáúÝóåõãú æóáóÇ íóÔúÝóÚõæäó ÅöáøóÇ áöãóäö ÇÑúÊóÖóì æóåõã ãøöäú ÎóÔúíóÊöåö ãõÔúÝöÞõæäó {28}

[shakir 21:28] He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

Unbelievable!!! Do you think the angels were worshipping God (through the "messenger") when they bowed down to Adam?!!!

Prostration, before Islam, was NOT solely an act of worship, it was an act of reverence as well (e.g. Joseph's brothers bowing down to him).

Only after Islam, prostration was made an act of worship exclusively.

Now, prayer, has always been exclusively an act of worship (in fact prayer is a very basic form of worship).

[layman]

When Allah (swt) told the angels to bow down to Adam, they did so, that's how Shaitaan came to be, by refusing..They were worshiping Allah through the messenger he sent, not Adam. Same concept applies.

íóÚúáóãõ ãóÇ Èóíúäó ÃóíúÏöíåöãú æóãóÇ ÎóáúÝóåõãú æóáóÇ íóÔúÝóÚõæäó ÅöáøóÇ áöãóäö ÇÑúÊóÖóì æóåõã ãøöäú ÎóÔúíóÊöåö ãõÔúÝöÞõæäó {28}

[shakir 21:28] He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

Salam,

The bow down was to the Ruhul Qudus (the LIGHT we call it) that was presence in the Heart of Adam (as) and NOT to human part of Adam. With the presence of the Ruhul Qudus, Adam became aware about many Names and taught the Angels. The Ruhul Qudus was not presence in the souls of Adam. His souls were not protected and therefore he made mistake by eating the fruit. Then the Ruhul Qudus was taken away from him until his taubah was accepted (cleaned up the souls). After the taubah, the Ruhul Qudus was returned to him to start a first mission to mankind...and he became a Prophet of Allah swt took care the humans and not longer to takecare of the Angels. No more mistakes and sins after that during the Prophethood mission.

We also respect our Prophet and Imams...because the Presence of the Light in them. The presence of the LIGHT in Ahlulbayt is in their heart and souls (33:33). Therefore their souls never die...remain ALIVE.

Any human souls that submit to Allah swt with true sincerity will have the LIGHT of Allah swt in their heart. If they die in the way of Allah swt (they became shahid...they witness the Greatness of Allah swt by submiting their souls to HIM swt alone), the LIGHT is extended to their souls...and they be ALIVE.

Salam to all Shuhadas and in Particular the Leader of Shuhada...YA HUSSAIN...

Layman

[JimJam]

@ JimJam

In the interest of avoiding repeating myself for the 20th time, I'll just reespond to your conclusion:

Wrong! When you beg someone for help and mercy, you are expecting them to have the power to help you and be merciful to you... this is NOT shirk... it only becomes shirk if this asking is yoked with the unseen.

In similar manner, if you ask the prophet for intercession, this is NOT shirk, only now that the prophet is in the unseen, this asking is Shirk.

Similarly, if someone asked Mary or the deciples for intercession, this is not shirk, only now that they are part of the unseen, this becomes a prayer, hence shirk..

Another example: knowing that angels in heavens intercede on our behalf daily, if we ask them for intercession, then this IS shirk... because they are part of the unseen...

The common factor between all these requests for intercession, that make them shirk, is that you are asking someone who is part of the unseen.

When you ask someone who is part of the unseen, your mode of asking, your mental attitude, changes... it becomes a "supplication", a prayer!

Thats just your opinion. The Prophet(saws) has the knowledge of the unseen. If not then how could tell tell us about the dajjal and make predictions of the future. Allah has given him knowledge and he is a witness to us. If he is a witness like the Quran said, but if he is cut of from us in a way that he is unaware of our actions,like you say, then how can he be a real witness? Besides. Your Imam Malik and Ghazali disagree with your new fangled ideas.

Hazrat Muhammad(saws) is a witness over us

[Yusufali 33:45] O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner,-

[Yusufali 48:8] We have truly sent thee as a witness, as a bringer of Glad Tidings, and as a Warner:

[Yusufali 73:15] We have sent to you, (O men!) a messenger, to be a witness concerning you, even as We sent a messenger to Pharaoh.

[Yusufali 2:143] Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

[Yusufali 4:41] How then if We brought from each people a witness, and We brought thee as a witness against these people!

[Yusufali 22:78] And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help

[Yusufali 4:69] All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!

Prophets are witnesses of the unseen too, like Ibrahim(as) words in the Quran

[Yusufali 21:56] He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

A witness cannot be called a witness if they have not themselves witnessed the acts of those against whom they bear witness.

The witness is an intercessor;

[Yusufali 43:86] And those whom they invoke besides Allah have no power of intercession;- only he who bears witness to the Truth, and they know (him).

[individualist]

Thats just your opinion. The Prophet(saws) has the knowledge of the unseen. If not then how could tell tell us about the dajjal and make predictions of the future. Allah has given him knowledge and he is a witness to us. If he is a witness like the Quran said, but if he is cut of from us in a way that he is unaware of our actions,like you say, then how can he be a real witness? Besides. Your Imam Malik and Ghazali disagree with your new fangled ideas.

Stop twisting my words, and read post#133 at least once without preconceived notions!

It does NOT matter if the prophet can hear you, see you or NOT... what matters is: He is beyond *YOUR* senses... when you call out on someone who is in the unseen and ask them for favors (even if only intercession), then you are in a mode of supplication.. you are praying. Pffffffffft!

Edited January 10, 2010 by individualist

[individualist]

Post#133 (reposted)

Idolatry (Shirk) by Way of Prayer

First let me start by stating this obvious fact: Praying is a very basic form of worship.

Now, I'll update/summarize our discussions in two main points.

-1- When Does *Asking* Become a *Prayer*?

DEFINITION:

*Asking* something (even if merely intercession) from someone who is beyond OUR senses is *praying*.

This definition has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether this someone:

1- exists

2- is alive

3- can hear your asking

4- can respond

As long as this someone is beyond *your* senses, and you're *asking* them for something, then you are praying to them.

This definition of prayer also has nothing to do with what is being asked, whether an intercession or any other favor.

Also, quite obviously, this has nothing to do whether you're praying to a so-called "designated" intercessor or not (e.g. angels are intercessors according to Quran)... if you're *praying* for an intercession then you are praying and prayer is worship.

Pagans practice the stupidest kind of idolatry (shirk) by thinking that their gods exist and live in their temples/statues. Meccans, like all pagans, thought the same thing, so the Quran repeatedly asked if these rocks are alive then why don't they move? why don't they answer? The pagans think that they can make God closer to them, by inventing (lesser) gods who didn't even exist and they think that the souls of these gods possess whatever temples and statues they build for them. They take comfort in imagining that, while they couldn't see their gods, at least their gods are very near to them (living in the temples/statues they built for them).

Pagans thought that these rocks/temples provided physical body to their gods... and that's why the Quran mocked their stupidity (if these rocks are possessed by their souls they why are they immobile and mute). But the fact remains that pagans *asked* for favors from invisible gods, yet they took comfort in thinking these gods are extremely close to them and living in their statues and temples.

A lot of people here said that the definition of prayer I'm using is an arbitrary one, but the fact is this definition is based on the Quran. Before I show the obvious evidence from the Quran, first I would like to repeat one example I used before.

EXAMPLE:

Let's say Adel lives in Canada and his father lives in Egypt. Adel is embarking on a difficult job and needs all the prayer he can get... so he prays and prays and also thought that he could ask his father to pray for him.

Instead of phoning his father in Egypt, Adel goes to his room to meditate and call upon his father to *ask* him to pray for him. So according to the definition of prayer above, Adel is *praying* to his father to pray on his behalf.

Isn't that obvious? What's the difference between Adel phoning his father and asking him to pray on his behalf and Adel calling upon his father? The difference is Adel's mental attitude, while asking, CHANGES dramatically, in both cases.

Asking something from someone who is beyond our senses transforms the asking into a prayer because the mental attitude is very different... it's very special.. it's the same mental state we enter into when we ask things from God and that's exactly why *asking* anything from anyone who is beyond our senses is praying.

Similarly, if I ask angels for an intercession, and even though angels are intercessors according to Quran, then I am praying to them for an intercession... because angels are beyond my senses and thus when asking them, my mental attitude is similar to the attitude when I'm asking God, thus giving angels something that is God's ALONE!

AGAIN: When you ask someone who is part of the unseen, your mode of asking, your mental attitude, changes... it becomes a "supplication", a prayer!

Another example:

why am I allowed to ask my parent, who is still here, to pray for me, but not my other parent who is beyond my senses?

And if I asked my other parent, the one who is beyond my senses, to pray for me, would that be shirk? Yes/No? If yes, then why?

Clearly the answer lies in the change of mode of asking between the two case.

Now here's the evidence from the Quran, supporting the definition above: what is the common factor beween *asking* Jesus, Mary, the Saints, gods thought to live in statues and temples, angels and demons?

Ans: They are all beyond our senses. True, there are differences pertaining to each one of these case, but the common factor is: asking for something from someone who is beyond our senses, i.e. praying!

Below I discuss the differences.

-2- Different Types of Prayer

There are 3 main types of idolatry by way of prayer:

1- calling upon gods (thought to live in statues). These gods don't even exist and pagans are reduced to calling upon rocks.

2- calling upon angels & demons. Angels of course exist, they are known to be intercessors, they probably can hear us and respond too. Jinn also exist and they hear us and can see us from whence we can't see them.

3- calling upon departed men. [these are idolized by praying to them]. They too exist, probably can hear us and respond too.

All 3 types of idolatry were mentioned in the Quran and all three types were mentioned within two frames:

1- praying to the idol/idolized for intercession (39:3; 6:94) & (9:31; 5:116)

2- praying to the idol/idolized for other favors.

Some of the examples given in the Quran are:

1- Meccans worshipped statues (asked for the intercession of gods represented by these statues (39:3; 6:94) as well as other favors) and demons (e.g. asked for their protection from evil (72:6) ).

2- Catholics pray to Jesus as God (5:72-73) + Son of God (9:30) + Main intercessor (9:31; 5:116) as well as pray to Mary (5:116) and the Saints (9:31) as intercessors.

The Quran mentioned a few examples of intercessors:

1- Angels intercede regularly on our behalf. (53:26; 42:5; 40:7).

2- The prophet intercedED on the behalf of both believers and hypocrites (9:80). Abraham interceded on the behalf of his father (19:46-47). Jacob interceded on the behalf of his sons (12:97-98), etc. This means that we can ask each other for prayers.

3- In the hereafter there will be chosen intercessors. (20:109; 34:22-23; 2:255).

This makes some of you argue that praying to "designated" intercessors for an intercession is NOT shirk! Really? But if you are praying to Mary for an intercession, because she is not designated as an intercessor, then you're committing shirk? So we are allowed to *PRAY* (for intercession) to some (e.g. Gabriel) but not the others? The Quran said pray to no one except God.

Always remember the fact that in the Quran, God described men praying to Mary/Saints as taking them as (lesser) gods... always remember this. This has nothing to do with Mary/the Saints being designated intercessors or not... they prayed for intercession and that's why they were considered to committ shirk.

Conclusion:

I hope the point is clear. It does not matter who you are praying to or for what purpose you are praying. Prayer is only to God.

And if you want to express your love for Ahl AlBayt then pray FOR them and NEVER *ask* them for anything even if merely an intercession... because *asking* for an intercession from someone beyond our senses, be it Mary, the Saints, Ahl AlBayt or Angels is praying to those for an intercession.. and prayer is worship.

[JimJam]

Post#133 (reposted)

Idolatry (Shirk) by Way of Prayer

First let me start by stating this obvious fact: Praying is a very basic form of worship.

Now, I'll update/summarize our discussions in two main points.

-1- When Does *Asking* Become a *Prayer*?

DEFINITION:

*Asking* something (even if merely intercession) from someone who is beyond OUR senses is *praying*.

This definition has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether this someone:

1- exists

2- is alive

3- can hear your asking

4- can respond

As long as this someone is beyond *your* senses, and you're *asking* them for something, then you are praying to them.

This definition of prayer also has nothing to do with what is being asked, whether an intercession or any other favor.

Also, quite obviously, this has nothing to do whether you're praying to a so-called "designated" intercessor or not (e.g. angels are intercessors according to Quran)... if you're *praying* for an intercession then you are praying and prayer is worship.

Conclusion:

I hope the point is clear. It does not matter who you are praying to or for what purpose you are praying. Prayer is only to God.

And if you want to express your love for Ahl AlBayt then pray FOR them and NEVER *ask* them for anything even if merely an intercession... because *asking* for an intercession from someone beyond our senses, be it Mary, the Saints, Ahl AlBayt or Angels is praying to those for an intercession.. and prayer is worship.

Thats just your personal opinion. Your "logic". Quran and Hadith do not support your views.

when you call out on someone who is in the unseen and ask them for favors (even if only intercession), then you are in a mode of supplication.. you are praying. Pffffffffft!

Every supplication is not praying. Prayer and worship is for Allah alone.

Edited January 10, 2010 by JimJam

[individualist]

Hadith? You mean Shia Hadith? Well, AbdullaQ found only one such Hadith allowing you to pray ONLY to the prophet for intercession. To which I responded:

Are you saying that calling out to anyone other than the prophet, to make Istighfar for you, is shirk? yes/no?

Note that if you say yes, then you are *AUTOMATICALLY* admitting that God chose to share something that is only His with the prophet and no one else... i.e. by answering the above question with yes, you are admitting that calling out to the prophet is Halal Shirk! While calling out to anyone else is Haram shirk! Which of course doesn't make any sense... I have already debunked the argument for permissibility of calling upon only "designated" intercessors in post # 133.

As for Quran, we have the specific example of Christians (then mostly Catholics) considered Mushriks in their relationship with the Saints (even though they merely pray for their intercession).

Edited January 10, 2010 by individualist

[14infallibles]

14Infallibles, thank you for the links to tafsir and books in your post #55. Most appreciated.

(salam)

Glad I can help! Inshallah we can benefit from these links and gain more knowledge.

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

[JimJam]

Hadith? You mean Shia Hadith? Well, AbdullaQ found only one such Hadith allowing you to pray ONLY to the prophet for intercession. To which I responded:

Are you saying that calling out to anyone other than the prophet, to make Istighfar for you, is shirk? yes/no?

Note that if you say yes, then you are *AUTOMATICALLY* admitting that God chose to share something that is only His with the prophet and no one else... i.e. by answering the above question with yes, you are admitting that calling out to the prophet is Halal Shirk! While calling out to anyone else is Haram shirk! Which of course doesn't make any sense... I have already debunked the argument for permissibility of calling upon only "designated" intercessors in post # 133.

As for Quran, we have the specific example of Christians (then mostly Catholics) considered Mushriks in their relationship with the Saints (even though they merely pray for their intercession).

First off, the the verses of the Quran which you tried to use to support your own personal opinions, I've already told you why I think you misunderstand them and used them in an improper context.The intercession of a Christian saint, is nothing. A saint has no status. Like your own referred to verses of the Quran show, the priests and popes have no status. And those priests, used to abuse their station. Especially the use of icons and indulgences to enrich themselves.

Like this one

[Yusufali 9:31] They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

The Shia Hadith also include the Hadiths of the Imams, and the Supplications of Imam Zain ul Abideen (as) ,which already have been posted, which show a very deep understanding of Tawhed, about how power is wholly vested in the all mighty, also involve invocation of intercession of the Ahl-e-Bayt. And there are hadiths of the Imams in which they tell us themselves that they are intercessors.

Also

"When the death time of Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) approached, he said:

`O Allah! I seek to approach toward you by means of Wilayah (accepting the mastery) of Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as)'"

Sunni references:

- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p662, Tradition #1129

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v3, p167

- Manaqib Ahmad

This is a shared hadith of both Shias and Sunnis, Ibn Abbas (ra) is loved and respected by both factions. He was a supporter of the Ahl-e-Bayt till the end.

Was Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) a mushrik, to pray to Allah by invoking his acceptance of the authourity an Imam who was dead?

We all, me and others have posted verses of the Quran that show the validy of Tawassul,

Like so

[shakir 21:24] Or, have they taken gods besides Him? Say: Bring your proof; this is the reminder of those with me and the reminder of those before me. Nay! most of them do not know the truth, so they turn aside.

[shakir 21:25] And We did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me.

[shakir 21:26] And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a ! son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants

[shakir 21:27] They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act.

[shakir 21:28] He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

Thus the intersession of the servant of gods, depends upon the whim & mercy of God himself. This is a Quranic concept. It is well within the fold of monotheism and reinforces the belief in the majesty and glory of God, who gives to whom ever he wishes.

You simply have been stonewalling and ignoring the verses of the Quran which we have posted. Your argument #133 has been refuted already.

Here, take a gander at these

http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogspot.com/2005/11/hadith-proofs-for-tawassul.html

http://www.oneummah.net/understand/tawassul.htm

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/tawassul/en/chap6.php

And if you were hit with a banhammer you wouldn't be here arguing would you?

At least we're not like the guys in your salafi forums, cussing and swearing at you for believing in something you dont.

Edited January 10, 2010 by JimJam

[AbdullaQ]

Hadith? You mean Shia Hadith? Well, AbdullaQ found only one such Hadith allowing you to pray ONLY to the prophet for intercession.

Please do not speak my words through your mouth. Things seem twisted after such terrible processing. Next time you want to quote me, please use a direct quote.

We are the souls on the ship of Noah. It is quite sad watching you struggle so hard against the waves.

Individualist, how about creating your own thread where we discuss your idea of what is the path to safety? Maybe your mountain is mightier than this humble boat?

Peace.

[Ali_Hussein_123]

The Dead are not capable of praying to Allah....therefore calling upon the dead to pray for your own soul is useless. What makes Islam true and unique since Adam (until our holy Prophet Mohamed) from all the other man made and false religions is the fact that we have the knowledge to directly call for Allah's help, guidance and mercy.

Therefore, there is no need to ask for the dead (May Allah's blessings be upon them) to pray for you.

What is more easier and logic??? To go directly to Allah or to go through dead people and they send the message to Allah??

Open your mind, your logic and your heart.....for Allah commands you in His Holy Quran to seek knowledge and guidance:

"And Allah has brought you out from the wombs of your mothers while you know nothing. And He gave you hearing, sight, and hearts that you might give thanks (to Allaah)" [Quran, 16:78]

"My Lord! Enrich me with knowledge.." (Quran, 20:114)

"Are those who have knowledge and those who have no knowledge alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful" [Quran, 39:9]

"And whoso brings the truth and believes therein such are the dutiful." (Quran, 39:33)

“Allah will raise those who have believed among you and those who were given knowledge, by degrees.” [Qur'an, 58:11]

So why should we use short-cuts?

Why make it harder or more complex?

The easiest and simple way is to go directly to Allah...In this way you avoid confusion or any misunderstandings.

Allah Himself in the Holy Quran tells us to directly communicate with Him!

Read the Quran and read what Allah in His own words has told you how to approach help and guidance.....and use your mind, knowledge and logic to seek the truth!

Wa salam

[Hot hot]

^^ YA ALI MADAD

[N G]

The Quran does say to call upon Allah swt by his "beautiful names".

He alone is my protector and helper. He has sent prophets to reveal his message, and imams to preserve what was revealed.

[Hot hot]