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TheHealer

Muslim youth and Homosexuality

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No thanks. I'd take the findings of a palm tree more seriously than those of a christian oriented "researcher." She talks like a first year medical student because she disagrees with you.. stop pretending it has anything to do with a clever examination of context clues Sherlock. I am beginning to see why the researcher peddling his christian agenda is so much more appealing angel.gif

Oh, come on.............Sherlock ? . You are starting to scare me to death lately. What next, le me guess...........you calling me an Imbecile....................

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

And for the other folks here who like to see beyond palm trees and Christian view points :

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Genetics

Thats non partisan enough, eh ?

Conservapedia? :unsure:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Partisan

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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A bit of fun aside, Genetics and Homosexuality co relation was not meant to be the purpose of this thread. Muslim sensibilities and our fears were.

Shaytan comes in steps, hope we as Muslims , break those steps............more so in this month, Muharram is here.

Wasallam

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From the stethoscope in your avatar, plus your love for Anatomy, i recon you to be a first year med school student. You talk like one too, no disrespect meant in the least. You sure ,you are not confusing with Hermophrodite, True-Seudo Hermophrodite with Homosexualty............the last i read a couple of years ago, i guess you are.

Anyways i recon , folks here might find this intresting, Christian oriented researcher this may be though, none the less, a research :

http://leonardooh.wo...ality%E2%80%99/

yup,you're right.I'm in 1st yr MD.I'm not at all confusing Hermaphroditism and Homosexuality nor I'm confusing True pseudo Hermaphrodite male or female with Homosexuality.(b/w its pseudo not Seudo )off-course,they're totally different terminologies.I was referring to Genotype and you're talking about Phenotype.Many geneticists do believe that homosexuality is directly related to the genetic make-up of a person.Many psychos consider it a good mimetic for homosexuals but this isn't an excuse.Researches are going on and geneticists are looking for the gay gene linkage.They're very hopeful about this. up-to Ur great curiosity,I'm quite familiar with the fact that Hermaproditism is a terminology, which is used, when any individual possesses both male and female genitalia rather homosexuality is a behavior and a sexual attraction for the same sex.Geneticists do believe that this has something to do with their genetic makeup.You're confusing genotype with phenotype.Wat i said that homosexuality can be due to ragging Sexual hormones level.Sometimes due to these sexual hormonal imbalances,many male infants are borne with higher amount of Estrogen than other males. They tend to have a specific femininity factor so they're usually attracted towards men.Same is the case with women.We can't really approve of the gay gene linkage as we dunno much about this.I was talking about ragging sexual hormones and you've confused that with Hermaphroditism.Ya didn't get, Wat i was trying to say.I'm not contradicting with the fact that homosexuality is far behind nature rather I'm contradicting with Ur slogans of Haram.Such kinda people need counseling so its quite blokish to issue death penalties for these people.

Edited by saba fatima naqvi

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Shaytan comes in steps, hope we as Muslims , break those steps............more so in this month, Muharram is here.

so do ya mean that we ought to be more pious during this month and Wat about the rest of the year?Its OK according to ya to keep on bullying around throughout the year but should pretend to be a good shiite Muslim during this month. So ya think that by shunning satanic activities and being spiritually strong for just a month we're gonna be towards the path of righteousness,codswallop.

Edited by inshaAllah
Changed "Ur Satanic activities" to "Satanic activities"

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It is something that is accepted as an alternate sexuality to heterosexuality :huh:. The term makes perfect sense unless you are an imbecile "m8." Why didn't you add bestiality to the list since you had already decided to be illogical?

Not by God it isn't. I couldn't care less what "modern" western society thinks. If bestiality is a paraphilia, then it would fall under the "etc." in the parentheses. And I really don't appreciate being called illogical or an imbecile for just asserting my stance in this matter, it's not something any sane logical person would do, you know? Oh, and m8 is a short form of 'mate', which is kinda british slang for "buddy", in case you didn't know.

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I am against sodomy, however I am not against homosexuals as a whole since I don't believe that it is a choice (and research has shown us that the brains of homosexual men are more similar to brains of heterosexual women than heterosexual men and vice versa) because no one in their right mind would actually choose to be a homosexual, that's like choosing to be blind or deaf. It is a mental disability/disorder (despite the American Psychiatric Association removing it from their list of disorders even though I think they know full well that it is one). I know some homosexuals at my university and they're nice and good people (regardless of their lifestyle), why should I believe that they deserve to be shunned and killed anymore than anyone else?

That said, any homosexual that tries to pull a move on me is getting punched in the face, no questions asked :lol:

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so do ya mean that we ought to be more pious during this month and Wat about the rest of the year?Its OK according to ya to keep on bullying around throughout the year but should pretend to be a good shiite Muslim during this month.So ya think that by shunning Ur satanic activities and being spiritually strong for just a month you're gonna be towards the path of righteousness,codswallop.

Well, to intervene diplomatically, 1/12 is at least better than 0/12, and it's a good occasion to start trying to break bad habits.

This is at least one benefit of the phenomenon of people magically becoming pious in Ramadan or Muharram.

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so do ya mean that we ought to be more pious during this month and Wat about the rest of the year?Its OK according to ya to keep on bullying around throughout the year but should pretend to be a good shiite Muslim during this month.So ya think that by shunning Ur satanic activities and being spiritually strong for just a month you're gonna be towards the path of righteousness,codswallop.

This is shocking, are you in your senses? Being a female, does not mean you can resort to abuse and slander. I am shocked. How dare you accuse me of satanic activities, you dont know me even here on shiachat, let alone in real life...........Are you on drugs ?, i guess med school has been hard on you, now that daddy has paid for you to be there..And you going to be a doctor, Good Lord..... When have i bullied you,this is propably the second time i have replied to a post of yours,................that too throughout the year, you havent been here on the chat even for a year yet. If you thought i misread you [ phenotype...genotype] in your earlier post, ok fine. But you resorting to abuse and slander is simply not acceptible. You need psychiatric help, are you studying at the University of Texas SouthWestern Medical School ? If yes, then i can arrange it, few of my collegues work there, one in Psychiatry too, i guess you need a counselling session.You are a disgrace, that what you are.

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Well, I think some of the reactions in this thread speak to exactly what you were talking about. Homophobia? Gay rights? Not a choice? Plight of gays? Well, let's take all that, and then compare with how Islam deals with this. The following is from al-Kafi, and yes, it's sahih.

ÃÈæÚáí ÇáÇÔÚÑí¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáßæÝí¡ Úä ÇáÚÈÇÓ Èä ÚÇãÑ¡ Úä ÓíÝ Èä ÚãíÑÉ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇáÑÍãä ÇáÚÑÒãí ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) íÞæá: æÌÏ ÑÌá ãÚ ÑÌá Ýí ÅãÇÑÉ ÚãÑ ÝåÑÈ ÃÍÏåãÇ æÇÎÐ ÇáÂÎÑ ÝÌÆ Èå Åáì ÚãÑ ÝÞÇá ááäÇÓ: ãÇ ÊÑæä¿

ÞÇá: ÝÞÇá åÐÇ: ÇÕäÚ ßÐÇ¡ æÞÇá åÐÇ: ÇÕäÚ ßÐÇ¡ ÞÇá: ÝÞÇá: ãÇ ÊÞæá íÇ ÃÈÇÇáÍÓä¿ ÞÇá:

ÇÖÑÈ ÚäÞå ÝÖÑÈ ÚäÞå ÞÇá: Ëã ÃÑÇÏ Ãä íÍãáå ÝÞÇá: ãå Åäå ÞÏ ÈÞí ãä ÍÏæÏå ÔÆ¡

ÞÇá: Ãí ÔÆ ÈÞí¿ ÞÇá: ÇÏÚ ÈÍØÈ ÞÇá: ÝÏÚÇ ÚãÑ ÈÍØÈ ÝÃãÑ Èå ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÝÃÍÑÞ Èå.

Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from al-Hasan b. `Ali al-Kufi from al-`Abbas b. `Amir from Sayf b. `Umayra from `Abd ar-Rahman al-`Arzami. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah (as) saying: A man was found with a man during the rule of `Umar, and one of them got away and the other was taken. So he was brought to `Umar, and he said to the people. What do you regard?

He said: So this one said “do thus” and this one said “do thus.” So he said: What do you say O Abu ‘l-Hasan?

He said: Strike his neck. So he struck his neck.

So he said: Then he wanted him borne (off), but he said: No. Verily there remains something of his hudud.

He said: Which thing remains? He said: Call for firewood. So `Umar called for firewood, and Amir al-Mu’mineen (as) commanded by it, so he was set afire by it.

More hadiths on the hadd of sodomy here:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/hudud/sodomy

There are even more hadiths in addition to those, so we're not only talking about a solitary report, the evidence on this is very strong. Again, I'm not even remotely suggesting we take the application of this law into our own hands living in these lands as such. However, the very fact of these laws in our Shari`a should be teaching us a very clear lesson with what our take on this should be, and our stance with regards to any softening of our reaction to it. Sure, if someone is struggling and fighting with evil feelings, recognizing them as wrong, but without acting on them, that person has my compassion. But to extend that to the one who is giving in to them and is not repentant, that's another story. In that case being "open and accepting", valuing them as being "special people" and whatever other liberal buzzwords you want to throw at it is in fact _not_ being compassionate at all to them, as your acceptance of their sinning may only encourage them to continue in it. Sure, maybe they'll feel better about themselves in the short run, but how do you think they'll feel as they burn in the fire of the hereafter?

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This is shocking, are you in your senses? Being a female, does not mean you can resort to abuse and slander. I am shocked. How dare you accuse me of satanic activities, you dont know me even here on shiachat, let alone in real life...........Are you on drugs ?, i guess med school has been hard on you, now that daddy has paid for you to be there..And you going to be a doctor, Good Lord..... When have i bullied you,this is propably the second time i have replied to a post of yours,................that too throughout the year, you havent been here on the chat even for a year yet. If you thought i misread you [ phenotype...genotype] in your earlier post, ok fine. But you resorting to abuse and slander is simply not acceptible. You need psychiatric help, are you studying at the University of Texas SouthWestern Medical School ? If yes, then i can arrange it, few of my collegues work there, one in Psychiatry too, i guess you need a counselling session.You are a disgrace, that what you are.

now i got that.Ya just love to draw Ur own assumptions.I wasn't abusing ya.I was talking about each and everyone of us.I wasn't specifically targeting ya.off-course ,i dunno ya and i don't wanna know ya 'coz you're seriously mistaken.I don't need any psychiatric help and excuse me Why do ya wanna know about my Medical school,you're getting too much personnel.

Alhumdulilah,I'm not a drug addict nor I'm planning at all to do so.You've abused me.You've awarded me with the title of being a Folk.I'm a brilliant student so medical school has been very comforting for me.Ya might be taking some drugs that's why you're completely lost.Ya don't even know how to talk to a girl.I wasn't abusing ya that's Ur misapprehension.I was talking about the attitudes of our society that we just love to be more pious during this sacred month.We keep-on bullying around throughout the year.We don't take care of our regular prayers.So its totally [Edited Out] to pretend to be more pious for only a month.We should try to be more and more pious through-out the year.That's Wat i was talking about and you've totally twisted my words.

With all due respect,I'd advice ya to keep on updating yourself with current Medical knowledge and stop confining yourself to old theories and researches.Learn to behave and don't try to launch personnel attacks against anyone.If ya would keep-on limiting yourself with the old theories,people would start doubting ya as a Doc.Try to practice on Ur mode of articulation,ya seriously need to behave sir.LOL,ya don't even know the spellings of counseling and you're advising me to hire the services of any psychiatrist.I guess you're totally lost.Don't try to show Ur biased attitude.Don't stuff Ur head with Ur very own misapprehensions.Don't try to jump on Ur own assumptions.This a public forum and people do have a right of difference of opinion so try to behave gently and don't worry about my dad he's there to keep an eye over me.you've started targeting me when you've found that you're no left with Ur very own objections and accusations.you're senior then me as you're a Doc but that doesn't mean that ya should disrespect Ur juniors.Don't be jealous of Ur juniors.There are good many Docs up-here and believe me they're very much polite and sophisticated so try to be one of them. Do some reading practice,man.I can point-out some of Ur mistakes from Ur previous post.Let me point-out them .May Allah help ya in getting rid of misapprehensions.

Edited by saba fatima naqvi

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

Well, I think some of the reactions in this thread speak to exactly what you were talking about. Homophobia? Gay rights? Not a choice? Plight of gays? Well, let's take all that, and then compare with how Islam deals with this. The following is from al-Kafi, and yes, it's sahih.

ÃÈæÚáí ÇáÇÔÚÑí¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáßæÝí¡ Úä ÇáÚÈÇÓ Èä ÚÇãÑ¡ Úä ÓíÝ Èä ÚãíÑÉ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇáÑÍãä ÇáÚÑÒãí ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) íÞæá: æÌÏ ÑÌá ãÚ ÑÌá Ýí ÅãÇÑÉ ÚãÑ ÝåÑÈ ÃÍÏåãÇ æÇÎÐ ÇáÂÎÑ ÝÌÆ Èå Åáì ÚãÑ ÝÞÇá ááäÇÓ: ãÇ ÊÑæä¿

ÞÇá: ÝÞÇá åÐÇ: ÇÕäÚ ßÐÇ¡ æÞÇá åÐÇ: ÇÕäÚ ßÐÇ¡ ÞÇá: ÝÞÇá: ãÇ ÊÞæá íÇ ÃÈÇÇáÍÓä¿ ÞÇá:

ÇÖÑÈ ÚäÞå ÝÖÑÈ ÚäÞå ÞÇá: Ëã ÃÑÇÏ Ãä íÍãáå ÝÞÇá: ãå Åäå ÞÏ ÈÞí ãä ÍÏæÏå ÔÆ¡

ÞÇá: Ãí ÔÆ ÈÞí¿ ÞÇá: ÇÏÚ ÈÍØÈ ÞÇá: ÝÏÚÇ ÚãÑ ÈÍØÈ ÝÃãÑ Èå ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÝÃÍÑÞ Èå.

Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from al-Hasan b. `Ali al-Kufi from al-`Abbas b. `Amir from Sayf b. `Umayra from `Abd ar-Rahman al-`Arzami. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah (as) saying: A man was found with a man during the rule of `Umar, and one of them got away and the other was taken. So he was brought to `Umar, and he said to the people. What do you regard?

He said: So this one said “do thus” and this one said “do thus.” So he said: What do you say O Abu ‘l-Hasan?

He said: Strike his neck. So he struck his neck.

So he said: Then he wanted him borne (off), but he said: No. Verily there remains something of his hudud.

He said: Which thing remains? He said: Call for firewood. So `Umar called for firewood, and Amir al-Mu’mineen (as) commanded by it, so he was set afire by it.

More hadiths on the hadd of sodomy here:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/hudud/sodomy

There are even more hadiths in addition to those, so we're not only talking about a solitary report, the evidence on this is very strong. Again, I'm not even remotely suggesting we take the application of this law into our own hands living in these lands as such. However, the very fact of these laws in our Shari`a should be teaching us a very clear lesson with what our take on this should be, and our stance with regards to any softening of our reaction to it. Sure, if someone is struggling and fighting with evil feelings, recognizing them as wrong, but without acting on them, that person has my compassion. But to extend that to the one who is giving in to them and is not repentant, that's another story. In that case being "open and accepting", valuing them as being "special people" and whatever other liberal buzzwords you want to throw at it is in fact _not_ being compassionate at all to them, as your acceptance of their sinning may only encourage them to continue in it. Sure, maybe they'll feel better about themselves in the short run, but how do you think they'll feel as they burn in the fire of the hereafter?

You keep saying that you do not advocate carrying out this "verdict" so allow me the liberty of tossing your haddith right out the window. We do not live in the time of the Imam and we do not know his reasoning behind why he did was he did (if this haddith is accurate) so let us deal with something that you seem to find particularly annoying: reality. Lets deal with the fact that you live in Pennsylvania and I live in Texas where we are both governed by people who don't burn gays or lash lesbians. We work with homosexuals, interact, befriend (well you probably dont but I do) them and the majority of us live in countries where you should keep your religion the hell out of other people's lives. Why are you oblivious to this? Why are you oblivious to the fact that the world_has_changed and their are complex social_realities that we must deal with without looking_like_fanatical_idiots?

Yes, they are openly accepted and in all likelihood if Macissac was to come up to them and say

"listen I want to be compassionate with you so I am going to quote you a haddith (dont worry its sahih) about why you would be killed and subsequently have your dead corpse burned for your life choices. Hopefully you will change your life accordingly. Oh btw.. you know that guy that punched you and called you a f*g for carrying a purse? Yeh that wasnt homophobia because it_does_not exist."

You would sound like every other insufferable, arrogant bible pusher I have ever been revolted by as they tried to shove their religion down my throat at university or in a grocery store because they believed I was going to hell (the hijab tipped them off).

I won't accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior and they won't start living their lives with the opposite sex and producing little soldiers for Imam Mahdi. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you don't seem to have grasped these very basic realities, these concepts that are necessary if one wants to live a life where they don't go to sleep angry and wake up bitter.

And it isn't a choice no matter how much you want to make it one. I can't imagine why someone would choose to be homosexual when people like you exist.

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Well, to intervene diplomatically, 1/12 is at least better than 0/12, and it's a good occasion to start trying to break bad habits.

This is at least one benefit of the phenomenon of people magically becoming pious in Ramadan or Muharram.

I was expecting this.Being pious for just a month,it doesn't make any sense to me.Ya ought to be pious through-out the year.Try to have an inside look on the message of Karbala.This isn't the message of Karbala to indulge yourself in satanic activities through-out the year.How do ya justify that? Can ya please elaborate it?

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bismillah.gif

salam.gif

As, most of you must be aware, oflate, there have been quite a few threads here on the chat, discussing homosexuality during

the past few months and weeks. I personally find it alarming 

how can they even think about it , akkh thu 

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Guest Zahratul_Islam
ost='1998314']

So based on what you sense of some guy's inconsistency from an internet forum you'd throw out a sahih hadith from your religion? And all the many others that affirm some form of capital punishment for this offense?[/b]

As to my saying I don't advocate carrying out this verdict here that's me trying to be careful for the people reading this. The application of the hudud in general require the fulfillment of their proper conditions in being carried out that we, living in a country not ruled by Shari`a law, do not have. So, I want to be cautious that folks don't get the wrong idea from what I'm posting here that they aught to take the law in their own hands and go beat the crud out of some local queers. As to the law itself, it's pretty much undeniable if you have the least care about being honest to your religion. Or would you prefer to just ignore any objectivity to the evidence at hand and make up our own rules instead?

We need only read this and the many other hadiths that lay out what Islam prescribes for the offense of lawat. It isn't really abstract and obtuse here, no matter how much you might like to obscure it.

You can verfiy in Majlsi yourself if you like, but yes he lists it as sahih. Even if you ignore this one, you still have the multitude of others hadiths from our Imams (as), with different chains attached, that teach us the hudud for this crime. And of course you have what Allah tells us in His book about the people of Lut (as) and what happened to them.

?

You can think whatever you like of me, but it's completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. As is the fact that the kuffar around you have become openly accepting of something Allah hates (even according to their own religion). Fact is, your religion prescribes this punishment for those who commit this offense. Now it's your choice to deal with that. It's not necessary to be able to carry out the full scope of the Law in order to learn a lesson from it. In this case, it's a crime for which a person may be executed, hence, we should understand from that there's no room for us to be softening up on it in terms of our own personal perspectives as to its gravity and consequences.

I am not throwing it out. I mean its still gonna be somewhere in my dusty copy of Al Kafi if I want to read it. I don't pretend it doesn't exist, I just don't see how the hell that relates to the topic at hand. I read the haddith and I recognize that If Imam Ali were here he would behead 1/2 of San Fransisco and burn their bodies as some form of creepy postmortem symbolism. What now? Should I slap my gay peer on the hand and tell him he has been a naughty boy?

If execution is the punishment for being gay (something that people can't choose to be but can choose to act on) what am I supposed to do with that critical bit of information? You stress that its important to note we do not have the government or judiciary system necessary to carry out such punishments.. so what exactly is your point? Just a stance against them or loud cries denouncing and rejecting them? How can you not see that this will only be counter productive and will not be beneficial to anyone?

These are human beings we are talking about, not some random gay man in a haddith (whose crimes may have been known to Imam Ali) who has suddenly become the poster child for how we should deal with homosexuality through the ages.

I only get personal because the problem with most of what you say is consistent.. you don't know how to go from haddith to present day. You just cant seem to make that jump and that is unfortunate for you and entertaining for me. The problem is when people take you seriously and Muslims look like another group of crazies trying to force their religion into other people's bedrooms in countries where they have no business doing that.

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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One of the perils of Muslims living in Western soceties, has been exposure to satanic ideas, garbed in liberal,tolerant overtones. But muslims have to understand ,its they who need

the changing not Islam. Its they who need to change their social circle and not Islam which needs changing. This is a very thin line indeed. Arrogance against Islamic doctrines is not the way forward. In our actions and thoughts , in our attitudes, in our prefrences we are Muslims first. Saying society has evolved and so have its ways, is not what Muslims should be saying. Islam is a way of life , has been ,is, and always will be. Its society which needs to mould itself around Islam and not the other way round .In what is wrong, we as Muslims ought to be proactive in opposing it. Its not a discussion ,about scoring points over someone, its a discussion about what we as Muslims should do. To be comfortable with something

thats evil, is not the Muslim way. Prophet Lut as.gif was after all sent by the Lord of Glory to warn the transgressors, i wonder what champions of gay rights and freedom of expression, would have told the Prophet ? We have to understand as Muslims we are a single nation, our life should be governed by Islam not by some legislation passed in the white house. The sooner we understand this the better.

To miss naqvi - spelling mistakes, thats all you can come up with as an excuse for slander. Its your knowledge thats needs updating, what exactly have you read in first year of med school for you to think you are knowledgeable ? As one of the brothers ,who knows a thing or two about med school, pointed out to me a bit earlier in a PM, half the time you are here on the chat. When we were in med school ,we did not have time enough to register here on the chat let alone dare to preach our seniors about knowledge, none of my business though.....its your life, but stop preaching,you are not wroth it. Regarding my Knowledge of being of old times...........i passed med school three years ago, so much so for being medieval .

Regarding forcing upon others our religion, who is doing that ? It is fully within our rights as Muslims, or for that matter for Christians,for Jews, to oppose something which is clearly against both moral and religious teachings. No one is forcing nobody. If gays and their kind are not punishable by law in Western lands, fine, who is asking for Muslims to take the law in their own hands ? But to oppose something in our hearts, by our tongues, by our actions is well within our right. And as Muslims its incumbent upon the faithful to do so.

Edited by TheHealer

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To miss naqvi - spelling mistakes, thats all you can come up with as an excuse for slander. Its your knowledge thats needs updating, what exactly have you read in first year of med school for you to think you are knowledgeable ? As one of the brothers ,who knows a thing or two about med school, pointed out to me a bit earlier in a PM, half the time you are here on the chat. When we were in med school ,we did not have time enough to register here on the chat let alone dare to preach our seniors about knowledge, none of my business though.....its your life, but stop preaching,you are not wroth it. Regarding my Knowledge of being of old times...........i passed med school three years ago, so much so for being medieval .

Come-on that was a parable.I was exemplifying.That was not a slander.Oh pity ya,where did i say that I'm so knowledgeable? Ya don't even know the semantic difference b/w a Genotype and Phenotype.Ya don't even know about the Born the way theory.Ya don't even know about gay gene linkage.Now,I've started doubting ya as a Doc.I'm not a knowledgeable person but I'm a bookworm.I usually keep-on updating myself with the advancements in Medical field although I'm just a medical student but I'm simply amazed to know that you're claiming to be a Doc and yet ya don't have enough knowledge.So who's better in this regard.Me or ya.You're just relying on some out-dated theories.Ya don't even know the "G" of Genetics and you're saying that there's no need of ya to keep on updating yourself. Wat a self-confidence.It doesn't seem like you've graduated from USA. Regarding visiting SC,so I'm on holidays that's why I'm visiting it now and then.Don't ya worry,I'm not going to be such a Doc who's gonna boast on her little knowledge.I'm not a Nun so I'm not preaching anything.I don't have anything to do with that if you're from a Medieval period or not.Be sensible At-least.Try to understand Wat a phrasal is so ya would get to know of Ur own that i wasn't abusing ya.I was taunting the attitudes of our society as a whole.So that was a phrasal according to me but if ya don't understand the difference b/w a Slander and a phrasal so I'm sorry,I'm totally helpless.That's it from my side.Now keep-on ordering fatwas of killing and slashing people.Good luck.

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semantic difference b/w a Genotype and Phenotype.Ya don't even know about the Born the way theory.Ya don't even know about gay gene linkage.

read the links i provided in refutation of the genetic link.

Now,I've started doubting ya as a Doc.

first earn the title doctor, it will still take you years to earn it....then come and doubt someone who already is one.

I'm not a knowledgeable person

yes, its evident, you couldnt' make it in the competitive entrance in your real homeland. Therefore daddy had to splash out the cash to send you to med school in the US. I can understand, three of my high school mates did the same years ago, that is, bought their medical degrees from US med schools.

It doesn't seem like you've graduated from USA.

damn correct you are, i was good enough to make it on my own. Get out of this slave mentality of yours, US is not smarter than us in the East. We are better.

Regarding visiting SC,so I'm on holidays that's why I'm visiting it now

like i said before, none of my business, like others you too are welcome here.Personally ,its good to see shia doctors{ would be or otherwise] over here.

Be sensible At-least.Try to understand Wat a phrasal is so ya would get to know of Ur own that i wasn't abusing ya.

not exactly when you use terms like your satanic............Passed TOEAFL ? or money brought it too ?

Now keep-on ordering fatwas of killing and slashing people.

Delusions or hallucinating now ? nobody said nothing like that.

Good luck [ quote]

ya, to your future patients too, they'll need plenty of it.

"And servants of (Allah) the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, Peace !"... AL-Quran

*PEACE

Edited by TheHealer

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ridiculous.

1:It wouldn't take me years to get a Medical degree as I'm not relying on some out-dated theories.you're a Doc.You're kidding me.You're a folk.

2:How ignorant you're.ya don't even know the criteria of entrance tests in US as ya were un-able to qualify one.Its not an easy task to get admission in any Medical school in US.They just give a damn to crammers and Folks.Its not an easy task to get a Medical degree from US.First you've to clear M-CAT.Then their are a series of interviews and when ya [Edited Out] them all then you're considered eligible to study medicine.You've to cross so many hurdles.For folks,getting a medical degree from US is a distant dream.Its too expensive.Yeah,i do know about those idiots who're getting medical degrees from Russia.Relying on some out-dated books.Its quite easy to get a Medical degree from Russia.When you've money in Ur pocket,ya can earn it but in US it requires money plus Ur intelligence.There's a hell of difference b/w getting a medical degree from US and from any other third world country.I'm not talking about [Edited Out] MBBS.I've seen a lot of MBBS uncles who're doing MD from my school.Regarding me not getting admission into my country,so let me tell ya that its quite an easy task to get a medical degree from my country.The type of entrance test they usually conduct are of the level of a 6th grader.Moreover,i didn't wanna get a title of an MBBS Doc.This degree is nothing but a trash.The standard of medical education in my country is not that exemplary.Ya only need to spend 6-7 lac per year and after the period of 5 years,they recognize ya as a Doc.If you're the son/daughter of an MP,they would love to give ya admission.MBBS docs from my country usually forget scissors and towels inside the patient's body.So this is the standard.That's why I'm here.Its quite an easy task for me to get admission in my country but i didn't 'coz i never wanted to be a Doc like ya,a pretty un-experienced one.In US,they don't provide us with the cramming material.They keep on raising hurdles for us.They don't forget to bury us with assignments.We've to pass hundreds and thousands of tests.They don't make it so easy for us like many medical schools in third world countries do.In US we term our institutions as Medical schools but ya ppl term that as a university,[Edited Out].Having no standard and still holds the title of a uni.Don't ever dare to disrespect my father 'coz ya can't stop me from insulting Ur father as well but I'll not do so as I'm not like ya.Use Ur brain.It was quite an easy task for me to get admission in my own country.I'd have to pay only 6-7 lacs so why am i paying three times double of that amount up-here?'coz of the standard of education.Ya might have graduated from India,Ukraine or Russia.Docs coming up from these countries are dumbos like ya.You're not paying my fee so just shut the hell-up.

3:Eastern medical schools are a hub of ignorance and low standard Medical education.Its quite easy to get an access to these schools.They usually provide ya with the cramming material.They prepare notebooks for ya.Ya know spoon-feeding is all about,that's Wat they give to ya ppl.Ya don't have Ur own Medical books,ya ppl use our printed version of books,cheaters.Wat a better standard of Education you've.That's why you're a folk 'coz you've graduated from one of those schools,sorry ya ppl call them universities.low-life

4:I don't need Ur good wishes.Keep them to yourself.I just pity on Ur parents.How unlucky they're to have such a rude kid.My parents are an exception.They don't need luck.Moreover,they've taught me to treat any ignorant jerk in a good way but it seems as Ur parents were un-able to raise ya as a good human being.So best of luck for Ur parents.May Allah bless them.That's it.I don't wanna hear it any more from ya.Go and search for a good job.Why are ya wasting Ur time up-here?Regarding my patients,oh,I wouldn't treat them the same as ya ppl do.If my patient's gonna be suffering with chest infection then I wouldn't prescribe him to take few doses of ketchup like ya ppl do.Do ya know why?'coz there's a hell of difference b/w the standard of my education and yours education.Its quite obvious.So I just pity on Ur patients.Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

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Well, I think some of the reactions in this thread speak to exactly what you were talking about. Homophobia? Gay rights? Not a choice? Plight of gays? Well, let's take all that, and then compare with how Islam deals with this. The following is from al-Kafi, and yes, it's sahih.

ÃÈæÚáí ÇáÇÔÚÑí¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáßæÝí¡ Úä ÇáÚÈÇÓ Èä ÚÇãÑ¡ Úä ÓíÝ Èä ÚãíÑÉ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇáÑÍãä ÇáÚÑÒãí ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) íÞæá: æÌÏ ÑÌá ãÚ ÑÌá Ýí ÅãÇÑÉ ÚãÑ ÝåÑÈ ÃÍÏåãÇ æÇÎÐ ÇáÂÎÑ ÝÌÆ Èå Åáì ÚãÑ ÝÞÇá ááäÇÓ: ãÇ ÊÑæä¿

ÞÇá: ÝÞÇá åÐÇ: ÇÕäÚ ßÐÇ¡ æÞÇá åÐÇ: ÇÕäÚ ßÐÇ¡ ÞÇá: ÝÞÇá: ãÇ ÊÞæá íÇ ÃÈÇÇáÍÓä¿ ÞÇá:

ÇÖÑÈ ÚäÞå ÝÖÑÈ ÚäÞå ÞÇá: Ëã ÃÑÇÏ Ãä íÍãáå ÝÞÇá: ãå Åäå ÞÏ ÈÞí ãä ÍÏæÏå ÔÆ¡

ÞÇá: Ãí ÔÆ ÈÞí¿ ÞÇá: ÇÏÚ ÈÍØÈ ÞÇá: ÝÏÚÇ ÚãÑ ÈÍØÈ ÝÃãÑ Èå ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÝÃÍÑÞ Èå.

Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from al-Hasan b. `Ali al-Kufi from al-`Abbas b. `Amir from Sayf b. `Umayra from `Abd ar-Rahman al-`Arzami. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah (as) saying: A man was found with a man during the rule of `Umar, and one of them got away and the other was taken. So he was brought to `Umar, and he said to the people. What do you regard?

He said: So this one said “do thus” and this one said “do thus.” So he said: What do you say O Abu ‘l-Hasan?

He said: Strike his neck. So he struck his neck.

So he said: Then he wanted him borne (off), but he said: No. Verily there remains something of his hudud.

He said: Which thing remains? He said: Call for firewood. So `Umar called for firewood, and Amir al-Mu’mineen (as) commanded by it, so he was set afire by it.

More hadiths on the hadd of sodomy here:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/hudud/sodomy

There are even more hadiths in addition to those, so we're not only talking about a solitary report, the evidence on this is very strong. Again, I'm not even remotely suggesting we take the application of this law into our own hands living in these lands as such. However, the very fact of these laws in our Shari`a should be teaching us a very clear lesson with what our take on this should be, and our stance with regards to any softening of our reaction to it. Sure, if someone is struggling and fighting with evil feelings, recognizing them as wrong, but without acting on them, that person has my compassion. But to extend that to the one who is giving in to them and is not repentant, that's another story. In that case being "open and accepting", valuing them as being "special people" and whatever other liberal buzzwords you want to throw at it is in fact _not_ being compassionate at all to them, as your acceptance of their sinning may only encourage them to continue in it. Sure, maybe they'll feel better about themselves in the short run, but how do you think they'll feel as they burn in the fire of the hereafter?

This is really not helping, and is rather beside the point. There's no disagreement on the religious wrongness of the acts.

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ridiculous.

1:It wouldn't take me years to get a Medical degree as I'm not relying on some out-dated theories.you're a Doc.You're kidding me.You're a folk.

2:How ignorant you're.ya don't even know the criteria of entrance tests in US as ya were un-able to qualify one.Its not an easy task to get admission in any Medical school in US.They just give a damn to crammers and Folks.Its not an easy task to get a Medical degree from US.First you've to clear M-CAT.Then their are a series of interviews and when ya [Edited Out] them all then you're considered eligible to study medicine.You've to cross so many hurdles.For folks,getting a medical degree from US is a distant dream.Its too expensive.Yeah,i do know about those idiots who're getting medical degrees from Russia.Relying on some out-dated books.Its quite easy to get a Medical degree from Russia.When you've money in Ur pocket,ya can earn it but in US it requires money plus Ur intelligence.There's a hell of difference b/w getting a medical degree from US and from any other third world country.I'm not talking about [Edited Out] MBBS.I've seen a lot of MBBS uncles who're doing MD from my school.Regarding me not getting admission into my country,so let me tell ya that its quite an easy task to get a medical degree from my country.The type of entrance test they usually conduct are of the level of a 6th grader.Moreover,i didn't wanna get a title of an MBBS Doc.This degree is nothing but a trash.The standard of medical education in my country is not that exemplary.Ya only need to spend 6-7 lac per year and after the period of 5 years,they recognize ya as a Doc.If you're the son/daughter of an MP,they would love to give ya admission.MBBS docs from my country usually forget scissors and towels inside the patient's body.So this is the standard.That's why I'm here.Its quite an easy task for me to get admission in my country but i didn't 'coz i never wanted to be a Doc like ya,a pretty un-experienced one.In US,they don't provide us with the cramming material.They keep on raising hurdles for us.They don't forget to bury us with assignments.We've to pass hundreds and thousands of tests.They don't make it so easy for us like many medical schools in third world countries do.In US we term our institutions as Medical schools but ya ppl term that as a university,[Edited Out].Having no standard and still holds the title of a uni.Don't ever dare to disrespect my father 'coz ya can't stop me from insulting Ur father as well but I'll not do so as I'm not like ya.Use Ur brain.It was quite an easy task for me to get admission in my own country.I'd have to pay only 6-7 lacs so why am i paying three times double of that amount up-here?'coz of the standard of education.Ya might have graduated from India,Ukraine or Russia.Docs coming up from these countries are dumbos like ya.You're not paying my fee so just shut the hell-up.

3:Eastern medical schools are a hub of ignorance and low standard Medical education.Its quite easy to get an access to these schools.They usually provide ya with the cramming material.They prepare notebooks for ya.Ya know spoon-feeding is all about,that's Wat they give to ya ppl.Ya don't have Ur own Medical books,ya ppl use our printed version of books,cheaters.Wat a better standard of Education you've.That's why you're a folk 'coz you've graduated from one of those schools,sorry ya ppl call them universities.low-life

4:I don't need Ur good wishes.Keep them to yourself.I just pity on Ur parents.How unlucky they're to have such a rude kid.My parents are an exception.They don't need luck.Moreover,they've taught me to treat any ignorant jerk in a good way but it seems as Ur parents were un-able to raise ya as a good human being.So best of luck for Ur parents.May Allah bless them.That's it.I don't wanna hear it any more from ya.Go and search for a good job.Why are ya wasting Ur time up-here?Regarding my patients,oh,I wouldn't treat them the same as ya ppl do.If my patient's gonna be suffering with chest infection then I wouldn't prescribe him to take few doses of ketchup like ya ppl do.Do ya know why?'coz there's a hell of difference b/w the standard of my education and yours education.Its quite obvious.So I just pity on Ur patients.Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Erm I agree with most of what you said, but you should stop hating on people who become doctors elsewhere other than the states or any other top med programs in the world. In fact its even harder to get into med school in Canada. The point is, there are a lot of intelligent people enrolled in all kinds of schools around the world, yes even the frowned upon Caribbean med schools. Secondly I doubt you require mad brains to become a doctor, pretty much anyone can qualify to become one provided they are consistent with their grades and hard working. Not everyone can be a skilled engineer, computer scientist or even a lawyer as these rely more heavily on inherent god given talents than just determination and work. Any how good luck with your schooling.

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Of course the act of sodomy is 100% detested in Islam. And of course Muslim people struggling with haram urges are to be encouraged to stay true to Islam.

But I do think that some (not all) Muslims in the west are slipping towards an excessively liberal stance. This isn't surprising. This is happening in all issues: pre-marital sex, drinking alcohol, mingling between the sexes etc. Of course you're going to find some western Muslims screaming liberal slogans to save sodomites and some hidebound Muslims ranting that haram urges don't exist. When Islam obviously is against sodomy whenever it is practiced and common sense says Muslims with haram urges need help to get off the road to Hell.

Personally, I have problems with Muslims practicing and encouraging sodomy. I know one guy and he's quite proud of himself. If non-Muslims commit it, then I don't consider it my business. The majority of non-Muslims have pre-marital sex as well. They build whole FAMILIES without getting married. Which is also very detestable. Yet we befriend them and get along socially with them, WITHOUT condoning or encouraging the acts.

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Erm I agree with most of what you said, but you should stop hating on people who become doctors elsewhere other than the states or any other top med programs in the world. In fact its even harder to get into med school in Canada. The point is, there are a lot of intelligent people enrolled in all kinds of schools around the world, yes even the frowned upon Caribbean med schools. Secondly I doubt you require mad brains to become a doctor, pretty much anyone can qualify to become one provided they are consistent with their grades and hard working. Not everyone can be a skilled engineer, computer scientist or even a lawyer as these rely more heavily on inherent god given talents than just determination and work. Any how good luck with your schooling.

I'm not disgracing ppl who're getting Medical education from anywhere around the globe.Don't ya even compare Canada with Medical schools of third world countries.Medicine Hat college of Canada is among the best Medical schools in the world.That was my reply to TheHealer,who has a misapprehension that I'm getting Medical education from US 'coz my own country refused to give me admission.According to him its so difficult to get a Medical degree from any Eastern Medical school so that's why I'm here to earn it.According to him,i was given admission 'coz of my father's wealth so i was telling him that WATS the standard of Medical education in Eastern countries.The thing that matters is the standard of Ur education.That was my point.I wasn't trying to disgrace anyone but he has launched too many personnel attacks so my reply to him was quite just.Who's he to think that the I'm a folk?He's a folk, who's not aware of the advancements in Medical field and yet he claims to be a Doc.Look at the standard of his education.I'm just a Medical student and he's a Doc yet his Knowledge isn't that exemplary. I'm aware of the difference b/e genotype and phenotype and he was confusing these terminologies.That Wat his knowledge is all about. Each and every where you're gonna get these MBBS docs,who've to pass Plab and USMLE to be recognized as a Doc up-here.So they've no right to degrade USA's Medical education 'coz they're copying from our medical books.They don't even have their own authors.This is Wat standard is all about and it does need a lot of effort to get a Medical degree up-here.You've to search hundred of libraries for a single book.This is the real standard.A competitive one.So i was trying to get him realize that try to count Ur words before uttering any non-sense.He was exaggerating me so i did that.Thanks for wishing me luck.

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I was expecting this.Being pious for just a month,it doesn't make any sense to me.Ya ought to be pious through-out the year.Try to have an inside look on the message of Karbala.This isn't the message of Karbala to indulge yourself in satanic activities through-out the year.How do ya justify that? Can ya please elaborate it?

Bah. It's rather absurd to be sure, but that's people. Some portion of these "Muslims for Ramadan" or "Muslims for Muharram" will experience something that will jolt them to carry it on throughout the year. The rest of this group will at least be on a better track a few months out of 12. In my book that's at least better than nothing.

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Bah. It's rather absurd to be sure, but that's people. Some portion of these "Muslims for Ramadan" or "Muslims for Muharram" will experience something that will jolt them to carry it on throughout the year. The rest of this group will at least be on a better track a few months out of 12. In my book that's at least better than nothing.

Thanks for elaborating me.

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This topic is so hot, one could get burnt in here. :lol: :lol: Finally the Docs are done fighting :P its something with medics, they many times get into arguments ,i have seen that a few times in the past in hospitals myself too, may be they are just too much driven, its that kinda profession.

Homosexualty here in the West is a sad reality, some people do say its in the genes, but i have always doubted it,plus the web links provided by one of the docs earlier seemed convincing enough, too many medical terms in it though for me to fully understand. In the US i suppose they passed some bill in the house too, not sure what will the Brits vote for in the Commons once its here for the passing. Though I dont see me agreeing to terms like Homophobic.

Edited by shutup

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(salam)

some people blame almost everything on the genes even smoking cigarettes :lol:

http://www.scienceda...90126081714.htm

we all know we do not need to smoke, we can stop, we do not want to when we are born. so to me this is all some kind of blame everything we can on the genes so people can feel like they have to do what they are addicted to (sin, Addiction, and wrongs)

it is clear, such things as homosexuality are not in genes or Allah would not have made law against it, nor would his prophets asked such people to change. unless anyone here would like to say different thus saying our Allah and prophets were liars? or claiming that you know more then they? when you clear know you cannot know more then they and you know well that they were more truthful then you. and had more insight then you.

(wasalam)

Edited by theunknownpreacher

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it is clear, such things as homosexuality are not in genes or Allah would not have made law against it, nor would his prophets asked such people to change. unless anyone here would like to say different thus saying our Allah and prophets were liars? or claiming that you know more then they? when you clear know you cannot know more then they and you know well that they were more truthful then you. and had more insight then you.

Did it ever occur to you that homosexual urges are a test from Allah?

We don't choose what we are attracted to. You aren't making sense.

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Did it ever occur to you that homosexual urges are a test from Allah?

We don't choose what we are attracted to. You aren't making sense.

(salam)

if something is a test you are to refuse it and not do it. thus obeying Allah. saying something is in someones genes and they are this way or that way is far different then saying someone is being tested. because we say our things we cannot change are in our genes. not the things we can change. and actually you do choose to be attracted to men and once one commits such a thing a hard patch grows over the heart thus making them even more so this way. if you would however rejected and remove yourself from it firstly it would go away. man was created to be attracted to female and female to man anything other is not natural, sane or right.

it is similar to how one when rejects Allah and disobeys him he allows this person to be even more mislead because he rejected Allah and did not listen. still the door is opened to turn back until death reaches and obey Allah. but the more deeper one disobeys Allah the deeper they get the harder the skin gets and the more it seems like they would never be able to be pulled out (in them own selfs)

without seeking the help of Allah and his forgiveness and guidance and obeying him no one has anything

And We have destined for them intimate companions, who made alluring to them what was before them and behind them; and the sentence among the previous generations of Jinns and men, who have passed away, is proved against them; for they are utterly lost.

( سورة فصلت , Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #25)

Is he, then, to whom the evil of his deeds is made fair-seeming, so that he considers it as good, Verily, Allah sends astray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So destroy not yourself in sorrow for them. Truly, Allah is the All-Knower of what they do!

( سورة فاطر , Fatir, Chapter #35, Verse #8)

(wasalam)

Edited by theunknownpreacher

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Don't make assumptions. Have you ever been homosexual to know that the tendencies 'go away'? If a person is homosexual genetically, there is no reason why it cannot be a test. How do you think sexual orientation comes about? Do people choose who or what they are attracted to? Of course not. It's a combination of genes and environment.

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