Muslim youth and Homosexuality

[TheHealer]

As, most of you must be aware, oflate, there have been quite a few threads here on the chat, discussing homosexuality during

the past few months and weeks. I personally find it alarming [along with some other members, whom i have been in contact with]

not with the confession of homosexual behaviour on part of some muslims [ quite a few of them ,the past few months] but with

the apparent [ how should i put it..] so as to say, accepting behaviour of many posters,in regards to this phenomina. From supporting

gay marriage legislation, in the garb of rights for all, to ,the very visible sympathetic support. Its as if, many posters

were severe in their reprasels of people who were harsh in their words, and rightly so,against this evil, instead of being

straight forward harsh on the perpetuators of this evil. This is exactly the reason, for bringing this thread up, are muslim

youth increasingly becoming at ease with viz a viz validity of this phenomenon ? So much so that, anyone who opposes this evil

without mincing words, is labelled as homophobic ? It goes without saying, that although everyone ,including the afformentioned

people are clearly against homosexuality per say, but the general attitude regarding this evilest of deeds is softening.And this is

what is worrying. My own analysis[ the limited and unscientific that it was] found out that people who were soft on this

issue were mostly teens, whereas people of my own generation [ mid twenties and elder] were usually clearly tough on their stand

of opposing this phenomenon.Is this phenomenon of softening of our youths' stand, a widespread occurance,or just a case of few isolated

cases. Here i want to make it amply clear, i in no way, am judging people, and in no way have tried to single out some people

neither have i anything against our teens [ most of them are of the level of Imaan that i can only dream of ].

The whole purpose of this thread is to have an academic discourse on this trend, and thats all there is to it.

Wasallam

[AliSaleh]

As, most of you must be aware, oflate, there have been quite a few threads here on the chat, discussing homosexuality during

the past few months and weeks. I personally find it alarming [along with some other members, whom i have been in contact with]

not with the confession of homosexual behaviour on part of some muslims [ quite a few of them ,the past few months] but with

the apparent [ how should i put it..] so as to say, accepting behaviour of many posters,in regards to this phenomina. From supporting

gay marriage legislation, in the garb of rights for all, to ,the very visible sympathetic support. Its as if, many posters

were severe in their reprasels of people who were harsh in their words, and rightly so,against this evil, instead of being

straight forward harsh on the perpetuators of this evil. This is exactly the reason, for bringing this thread up, are muslim

youth increasingly becoming at ease with viz a viz validity of this phenomenon ? So much so that, anyone who opposes this evil

without mincing words, is labelled as homophobic ? It goes without saying, that although everyone ,including the afformentioned

people are clearly against homosexuality per say, but the general attitude regarding this evilest of deeds is softening.And this is

what is worrying. My own analysis[ the limited and unscientific that it was] found out that people who were soft on this

issue were mostly teens, whereas people of my own generation [ mid twenties and elder] were usually clearly tough on their stand

of opposing this phenomenon.Is this phenomenon of softening of our youths' stand, a widespread occurance,or just a case of few isolated

cases. Here i want to make it amply clear, i in no way, am judging people, and in no way have tried to single out some people

neither have i anything against our teens [ most of them are of the level of Imaan that i can only dream of ].

The whole purpose of this thread is to have an academic discourse on this trend, and thats all there is to it.

Wasallam

Hello brother, the way I see it we are each born with different attributes. Some of us are tall, some skinny and some are born with homosexual tendencies. We cannot criticize the way Allah has created us. We need to make a distinction between someone who is born with homosexual tendencies and someone who is born with homosexual tendencies and acts upon them and practicies homosexuality. Criticizing the fist group is in fact homophobic as they have no control over the way they were born.

[lion]

Let me tell you, As society progresses these trends will continue to a point where morality essentially disengrates,There is little we can do about it unfortunately. It becomes a one man battle, every soul for him/herself, fighting to make it to the next day with dignity and expression of values.

[Haji 2003]

accepting behaviour of many posters,in regards to this phenomina. From supporting gay marriage legislation, in the garb of rights for all, to ,the very visible sympathetic support.

Don't worry Bro. Inshallah it's only until their Green Card applications go through and/or they get residency. Once that happens they will be as fundamentalist as the rest of us.

[guest 34193]

(wasalam)

No doubt to me that it's due to the influences of modern "morality" (or lack thereof) on many amongst us. Day in, day out, we are bombarded with this notion that acceptance of sodomite proclivities is the more enlightened, progressive, position to take, while opposition to it can only be out of a lack of intelligence, bigotry, being out of date, etc. Those who oppose such perversions as gay marriage and so on and lumped in with the same people who had opposed inter-racial marriages. Two men (or two men) engaging in sex together is seen as just another expression of love, that they are helpless in feeling how they feel, and that being against this is "homophobia".

Now, we keep talking about the difference between culture and religion. We point to customs and ideals that different ethnicities and countries amongst Muslims may hold on such issues as family life, marriage, and so on, and make a demarcation between their cultural influences and what the religion actually teaches. What we often fail to recognize is that this very same thing happens amongst us Western Muslims (whether as converts, second generation children of immigrants, etc.) So, in this culture today, we see the above trend of acceptance of homosexual behavior, and thus we find this softening amongst Muslims (particularly as you said, the youth), either in outright acceptance of it, or, a recognition of its being forbidden, but still approaching it from the angle of "It isn't allowed, but I still will respect your right to choose", and so on.

There is absolutely _no_ room for this soft approach though once you actually study what our religion teaches on this. Doesn't mean we can't have a compassionate approach to the person who is struggling with their feelings, recognizing its wrongfulness and trying to get over it. But in terms of the one who has given in their sin (and it is a sin, every time), we need to be very clear with ourselves on this. This is a sin for which Islam prescribes _death_ (ok, there is discussion in fiqh about whether it is the receiving partner or both partners that receive capital punishment, but regardless there is a death penalty involved in this issue). Not only is death prescribed here, but it's even recommended you then burn their body after they've been killed! No, I am not at all recommending we take the enforcement of the hudud in our own hands here in a kafir country, there needs to be the right conditions for these things (Islamic governance, courts, etc.) which are not here, but regardless of that the nature of the punishment itself should serve as a clear lesson to us against any such softening of our own perspective on the gravity of this offense. Words such as "homophobic" should never pass our lips except to denounce the stupidity behind such a word. Even "homosexuality" is a problematic word as it promotes this idea that attraction and sexual intercourse with a person of one's gender is an in-born trait that one is helpless to control. (The word itself was only invented later on and promoted by psychologists. Before that, it was regarded as an act)

Actually, I use this example (death followed by burning their bodies) as a counter-argument to a lot of the liberalism and even humanism we find getting promoted these days amongst us, both by laymen and some so-called scholars. There's no way you can have such a law and honestly then claim that Islam is somehow a liberal religion fully compatible with modern ideals and concepts of morality.

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

^ Why are you equating sodomy to having gay feelings? They are two very different things. A gay can not be punished, until he does sodomy. Every hadith, you read, will be against sodomy, and not against the feeling of homosexuality, which can be natural, I believe.

I believe, being gay could be a test of Allah. All gays say that they just can't get rid of that feeling of attraction. It's really like a man is overcome by lust, when he sees a nude, or a partially nude woman. He can't control it. What he can control is to do adultery with her. Same goes for the homosexuals. They can't control their feelings, but they can control themselves from doing sodomy, because Allah will not make something Haram, if you can't control yourself from doing it. And mind you, it is sodomy that is Haram, and not homosexual feelings.

A homosexual, can learn to cover up his feelings, and not to show them off. It's not impossible. He is to take his homosexuality as a text from Allah, to see how far can he control his desires.

I agree with the rest of your post, about the severe strictness of the laws about sodomy.

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[Ali Abdul-Hussain]

m8, just do what I do. Replace the label "homosexuality" with "homophilia", because after all, in truth, it's no different from the other sick paraphilias (necrophilia, paedophilia etc.). Giving it the label "homosexual" means that it's something that is accepted as an alternate sexuality to heterosexuality.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Ali Abdul-Hussain

[TheHealer]

Hello brother, the way I see it we are each born with different attributes. Some of us are tall, some skinny and some are born with homosexual tendencies. We cannot criticize the way Allah has created us. We need to make a distinction between someone who is born with homosexual tendencies and someone who is born with homosexual tendencies and acts upon them and practicies homosexuality. Criticizing the fist group is in fact homophobic as they have no control over the way they were born.

I have said it many a time before in other threads too, this whole myth [Edited Out], that certain people are born this way, has no scientific basis whatso ever.

Genetics has no role to play in it, not even mutations in genes. I am a Medical Doctor, and am absolutely confident when i say homosexuality and genetics dont go hand in hand, at most you can label homosexual behaviour as perverted sexual tendency, the farthest i am willing to go, as other doctors are, is to label it as a psychiatric disease. And when you say '' We can not criticise the way Allah has created us"' it makes me tear out my clothes. Far above is My Lord from what they Attribute to Him.

Don't worry Bro. Inshallah it's only until their Green Card applications go through and/or they get residency. Once that happens they will be as fundamentalist as the rest of us.

Yes, brother, now i know USMLE is not for me......................pun intended though

[Bahadur Ali]

If homosexuality were really a matter of genes it would have died out thousands of years ago as homosexuals don't reproduce and thus don't transmit their genes... the idea that a person is somehow born gay is a complete lie!

[kadhim]

If homosexuality were really a matter of genes it would have died out thousands of years ago as homosexuals don't reproduce and thus don't transmit their genes... the idea that a person is somehow born gay is a complete lie!

There have been a lot of closeted folks over the years who, to fit in and be normal socially, married and had children. Happened/happens a lot.

[Envir-Islam]

Modernity is rising and so is homosexuality. I agree that the only reason homosexuality exist is because of the modern society. Ancient times there was no word for gay or liking another person of the same sex. Modern societies have created such a word. Though still in 3rd world countries there is no word for such actions. Only modern cultures contain the word gay in it.

It is a sad thing to see that there is a rise in Muslim homosexuality and also the ease in it. I have been told that to be friends with one is bad and to acknowledge and agree with it or to brush gayness off the shoulder is also haraam and should not be permitted. I do wonder if that is true or not? Or am I just told that so as not to befriend any. Though being in college it is quite difficult to not befriend a gay person or someone who does not mind in those actions. There are so many of them and there are ones that are hidden also.

[gogiison2]

WA wr wb..

check this thread out, iA it'll benefit you. my posts start at #11.

[Quisant]

Modernity is rising and so is homosexuality. I agree that the only reason homosexuality exist is because of the modern society. Ancient times there was no word for gay or liking another person of the same sex. Modern societies have created such a word. Though still in 3rd world countries there is no word for such actions. Only modern cultures contain the word gay in it.

We all know that mainstream Islam strongly frowns on homosexuality but to propose that "modern society is the cause" is innocent to the point of willfull gullibility.

The saqis or wine bearers that so frequently appear in Sufi poetry ?

Do you really believe that they only serve wine?

They are available for sexual favors. In most cases, they were slaves trained for the purpose.

Those servants in the Quran are there to provide sexual services.

I am certain of that.

I am also certain that you will not see it that way.

It doesn't mean either of us is in error or lying.

It just means you're naive, that's all.

There are many "period" Persian miniatures with factual depictions of the nature of the sexual service provided.

Sa'adi (1184 - 1283) has been translated by a number of major Western poets, most of whom were not deterred by the "transparently homoerotic" tone of much of his work. According to Wayne Dynes, "English translators even in the tamer episodes of the Gulistan turn boys into girls and change anecdotes about pederasty into tales of heterosexual Iove." (Asian Homosexuality p.66)

Wslm.

[_jen_]

Homosexuality has always existed and will always exist. The only difference now is that (besides you guys on this thread) us muslim youth are more informed on the causes of the problem, and the stuggles one has to take to overcome their sexuality. So we are not trying to justify homosexualiy or softening it as a sin, but we are more willing to understand it than scream "HARAAM". I think this is the change in attitude that you are observing.

Homosexuality must be discussed. Its about time the muslim community stop pretending it doesnt exist...because it does. I know muslims from my own mosque who are gay, and being harsh with them, isolating them, does not help. In fact it will probably encourage them to leave Islam and try find less harsh company.

[Doctor_Naqvi]

_jen_,i just loved Ur post.That's Wat truism is all about.No twisting of words or sugary coating Whatsoever.To say whether our society is gonna bear the homosexuality baggage or not,is gonna be a tough one.Sometimes we get so much intense about this issue that we start talking about slashing and killing homosexuals.Such a biased attitude.Why don't we pay any attention towards their proper counseling?I guess that's the best way to get them realize that homosexuality is far behind nature so get rid of this sickening thought.Ordering Fatwas and raising slogans of haram will worsen the situation.

[Rohani]

Homosexuality has always existed and will always exist. The only difference now is that (besides you guys on this thread) us muslim youth are more informed on the causes of the problem, and the stuggles one has to take to overcome their sexuality. So we are not trying to justify homosexualiy or softening it as a sin, but we are more willing to understand it than scream "HARAAM". I think this is the change in attitude that you are observing.

Homosexuality must be discussed. Its about time the muslim community stop pretending it doesnt exist...because it does. I know muslims from my own mosque who are gay, and being harsh with them, isolating them, does not help. In fact it will probably encourage them to leave Islam and try find less harsh company.

(salam)

your mistaken, this did not always exist, the first people to practice it were the people of lot, and we also see what Allah did to them. do not go easy on sinners who have made their own choices and claim they are this way or that ways, they made themselves into that by committing such transgression. and if your saying that something has existed always, when we know only Allah is ever living and always, then you are joining partners to him and saying that something besides him is eternal like him, do you understand what i am saying about your phrases?

(wasalam)

Edited December 17, 2009 by theunknownpreacher

[_jen_]

(salam)

your mistaken, this did not always exist, the first people to practice it were the people of lot, and we also see what Allah did to them. do not go easy on sinners who have made their own choices and claim they are this way or that ways, they made themselves into that by committing such transgression. and if your saying that something has exitsed forever, when we know only Allah is ever living then you are joining partners to him and saying that something besides him is eternal like him, do you understand what i am saying about your phrases?

(wasalam)

You arent serious are you? The point of my post was the changing attitudes to homosexuality - and you are concentrating on the most irrelevant part of my post. Anyway, now that you have brought it up- I think its pretty self evident that when i said homosexuality has always existed - I am not joining partners with Allah LOL. (Deary me...were you a wahabi previosuly!) Its obvious i meant always existed since human existence. And I am aware the Islamic belief is that the people of Lot were the first homosexulas that ever existed, as it is interpreted by the Quran. But thats not my belief.

Edited December 17, 2009 by _jen_

[Rohani]

You arent serious are you? The point of my post was the changing attitudes to homosexuality - and you are concentrating on the most irrelevant part of my post. Anyway, now that you have brought it up- I think its pretty self evident that when i said homosexuality has always existed - I am not joining partners with Allah LOL. (Deary me...were you a wahabi previosuly!) And I am aware the Islamic belief is that the people of Lot were the first homosexulas that ever existed, as it is interpreted by the Quran. But thats not my belief.

(salam)

then why do you comment on a Islamic matter, Islamic post, and to the mumin. if you do not agree with the book of Allah?

you should not advise anyone to change their attitudes towards homosexuality, this (homosexual) action is haram and anyone who supports it or sympathizes with it has disagreed with the book of Allah. anyone who agrees that someone is created in a state of sin has said that Allah has created the sin rather it is that each persons make their own choice (and Allah has been merciful to advise them the right thing to do and the proper law to follow). as for your flawed words it is clear that you perhaps do not understand what you are saying because nothing has been always except for Allah subhanahu wa ta ala. to say anything else has been here forever is a perverse saying in it's self. you should not comment here until you agree with the book of Allah.and the teachings of our imams and prophet. Allah sees all that you do.

(wasalam)

Edited December 17, 2009 by theunknownpreacher

[_jen_]

(salam)

then why do you comment on a Islamic matter, Islamic post, and to the mumin. if you do not agree with the book of Allah?

Can an admin or mod please clarify if it is against the rules to share an opinion on this forum which is not the Islamic one. (ie my opinion that homosexuality was around before Lot) If it is against the rules, then my bad.

you should not advise anyone to change their attitudes towards homosexuality, this (homosexual) action is haram and anyone who supports it or sympathizes with it has disagreed with the book of Allah. anyone who agrees that someone is created in a state of sin has said that Allah has created the sin rather it is that each persons make their own choice (and Allah has been merciful to advise them the right thing to do and the proper law to follow).

Please read my previous post. I dont agree with homosexuality as an act, and i do believe it is a sin. (and if i didnt believe it was a sin, i would still say so, unless it was against the site rules). However, i prefer to take a less harsh attitude to the issue as i believe ultimately this would have better results.

as for your flawed words it is clear that you perhaps do not understand what you are saying because nothing has been always except for Allah subhanahu wa ta ala. to say anything else has been here forever is a perverse saying in it's self.

Please read my previous post. I think you are (knowingly) being a bit OTT. When i said "has always existed" I didnt think it necessary to then say "since human existence", because i think people here are clever enough to know that is what i mean.

you should not comment here until you agree with the book of Allah.and the teachings of our imams and prophet. Allah sees all that you do.

(wasalam)

I dont believe this is the rules of the forum. I think Sunnis, Chrisitians, Jews...atheists - anyone really is allowed to post on this forum. Correct me if I am wrong.

Edited December 17, 2009 by _jen_

[kadhim]

(salam)

your mistaken, this did not always exist, the first people to practice it were the people of lot, and we also see what Allah did to them. do not go easy on sinners who have made their own choices and claim they are this way or that ways, they made themselves into that by committing such transgression. and if your saying that something has existed always, when we know only Allah is ever living and always, then you are joining partners to him and saying that something besides him is eternal like him, do you understand what i am saying about your phrases?

(wasalam)

Buddy:

1. Read

2. Use your brain for a moment

If you do these two things, you would realize relatively quickly that:

1. She distinguishes between same sex urges and the acting on those urges

2. "Always" in this context does not refer to some God-like eternality. Sheesh. Literalists.

[Rohani]

Can an admin or mod please clarify if it is against the rules to share an opinion on this forum which is not the Islamic one. (ie my opinion that homosexuality was around before Lot) If it is against the rules, then my bad.

Please read my previous post. I dont agree with homosexuality as an act, and i do believe it is a sin. (and if i didnt believe it was a sin, i would still say so, unless it was against the site rules). However, i prefer to take a less harsh attitude to the issue as i believe ultimately this would have better results.

Please read my previous post. I think you are (knowingly) being a bit OTT. When i said "has always existed" I didnt think it necessary to then say "since human existence", because i think people here are clever enough to know that is what i mean.

I dont believe this is the rules of the forum. I think Sunnis, Chrisitians, Jews...atheists - anyone really is allowed to post on this forum. Correct me if I am wrong.

(salam)

this is not a matter of what is allowed on the internet,

but it is a matter of spreading wrong ideas.

and posting them among things that should be talked about by people who have been educated.

as for this phrases of yours, do you know how many evil phrases have started evil beliefs?

people started saying that isa was the son of god as a phrase it turned into people thinking he was one who inherited the power of Allah and was like Allah himself.

see how saying something has been always besides Allah could result in much damage?

as for harshness towards such (edit: "as would want to commit"),

they could be offered the chance to repent, take a wife, or stay unmarried and stay away from such acts. (edit: "and even under a unislamic government this may be a good method")

the fact is that they must know that it is haram,

and the example must be set (under an islamic state or by teaching of the harshness that would be done for the punishment in hell fire is far worst then on earth"). what our law allows is what must be fulfilled. Allah has clearly shown us in his qu'ran the method and process to take care of such people also the punishment for those who do not turn away from such sin. thus one should not be soft with them, it is merciful enough for them to know it is haram and to ask them to turn away from sin. under a government that uses the law of god no one of them would even say they are such things openly. because there would be a strong punishment for them thus is what is decreed. a sever sin calls for a sever punishment.

(wasalam)

Edited December 17, 2009 by theunknownpreacher

[Frosty]

I think the answer is simple, if you are attracted to people who are of the same sex as you, get a sex change. This is the genius of Imam Khomeini's (A.S.) idea and I think it makes perfect sense.

[Rohani]

Buddy:

1. Read

2. Use your brain for a moment

If you do these two things, you would realize relatively quickly that:

1. She distinguishes between same sex urges and the acting on those urges

2. "Always" in this context does not refer to some God-like eternality. Sheesh. Literalists.

(salam)

would you say "sheesh literalists" to our imams when they heard such a saying and spoke up saying "that phrase is wrong do not say it"?

i read, i see she said this "us muslim youth are more informed on the causes of the problem, and the stuggles one has to take to overcome their sexuality. So we are not trying to justify homosexualiy or softening it as a sin, but we are more willing to understand it than scream "HARAAM" "

do you understand what is being said here brother?

I see sympathizing with transgression, and forbidden of us proclaiming that it is a sin and haram! even if the person agrees it is a sin, they are concealing the facts then. how would people understand unless they know how sever the sin is they want to commit? and how would they know what Allah commands unless they know it is haram?

(wasalam)

Edited December 17, 2009 by theunknownpreacher

[Doctor_Naqvi]

No-one is acquiescing that homosexuality isn't a sin.Its quite an un-intentional phenomenon.It deals with Ur genetic make-up.You're born with this.Ordering death penalty for such individuals isn't gonna bring any good to them.we should deal with them comprehensibly.

Edited December 17, 2009 by saba fatima naqvi

[Rohani]

I think the answer is simple, if you are attracted to people who are of the same sex as you, get a sex change. This is the genius of Imam Khomeini's (A.S.) idea and I think it makes perfect sense.

(salam)

Actually brother give this a read

Ayatollah Fadlallah says

"

Q: It has been reported that Your Eminence allows gender change; may we know more about the details of your opinion? What are the juristic justifications and foundations on which you based your judgment?

A: There are many cases pertaining to this subject: One case, which has lately been common in western community, comprises a surgery in which the testes, penis and scrotum are totally removed. In addition, a cavity is made to look like a girl’s vulva. Then administration of the hormone estrogen is prescribed, for the purpose of effecting somatic changes in order for the patient to look more closely in his physical appearance like the other sex. In such a case, man’s anatomical formation is preserved, with the appearance of some feminine features like soft voice, prominence of breasts and hairless beard. Such a surgery makes no difference, for it doesn’t enable the transsexual to have any sexual intercourse, as a woman, with other men, so it will be a male-male sexual relation; moreover, this surgery doesn’t make him a female from the Shari’a point of view. It is just a fraudulent operation to justify the homosexuality, which is still rejected, and despised by the great majority of communities.

Disallowing such a surgery is quite logical, because this operation inflicts the body with damage-removing genital- in the absence of any benefit that outbalances the mentioned damage.

Some other common and known cases of changing one’s sex like changing an epicene to a female. Such cases assume the possibility of changing a female to a male with all characteristics, such as having a penis, having the ability to have sex just like any other man, and acquiring masculine appearance, or the possibility of changing a male to a female by transplanting female gentile, where a transsexual will be just like any woman anatomically and medically, and where a transsexual has a normal vagina, through which sexual intercourse is performed and where the same feelings of the ordinary woman are aroused upon having sex with a man concerning the nature of lust and its secretion. Consequently, there will be no difference between the transsexual and any female except in casual attributes as when a woman has no uterus or she can’t carry a baby since ordinary women may undergo such condition. Accordingly, the transsexual will turn to be an ordinary woman regarding the external features and the sexual characteristics.

In the last cases mentioned, we don’t have any proof or legal text that deem them impermissible. Unless we have legal evidence that disallows changing sex primarily, in principle, changing sex and the surgeries in question are permissible.

If such surgeries were accomplished, the consequent outcome would be considered an ordinary woman having the same rights and duties. She should marry, give birth and inherit, for she would become a real woman."

(wasalam)

No-one is acquiescing that homosexuality isn't a sin.Its quite an un-intentional phenomenon.It deals with Ur genetic make-up.You're born with this.Ordering death penalty for such individuals isn't gonna bring any good to them.we should deal with them comprehensibly.

(salam)

I disagree, you are not born with such a thing. it is ones very own action that they can prevent or commit. sin is not put on a person from birth it is something the individual commits by themselves. and to their own lose. and you can read above what i said about such a belief as that your born with this.

(wasalam)

[_jen_]

(salam)

this is not a matter of what is allowed on the internet, but it is a matter of spreading wrong ideas. and posting them among things that should be talked about by people who have been educated. as for this phrases of yours, do you know how many evil pharses have started evil beliefs? people satrted saying that isa was the son of god as apharse it turne dinto people thinking he was one who inherited the power of Allah and was like Allah himself. see how saying something has been always besides Allah could result in much damaege?

Wow You really are a little confused :| You know my ex-teacher (a sheikh) tells me a lot that i have "always been a troubesome person". I reckon a comeback with your mentality would be too funny. So I gotta thank you for that..

as for harshness towars such sinners, they could be offerd the chance to repent, take a wife, or stay un married and stay away from such acts the fact is that they must know that itis haram, and the example must be set. what our law allows is what must be fulfilled. Allah has clearly shown us in his qu'ran the method an dprocess to take care of such people also the punishment for those who do not turn away from such sin. thus one should not be soft with them, it is merciful enough for them to know it is haram and to ask them to turn away from sin. under a government that uses the law of god no one of them would even say they are such tings openly. because there would be a strong punishment for them thus is what is decreed. a sever sin calls for a sever punishment.

(wasalam)

we do not live in an Islamic state, so lets be realistic about what punishments or consequences can be done to gay people here in the West. We also need to think about things which are helpful - ie understanding them, than screaming HARAAAM

[Rohani]

Wow You really are a little confused :| You know my ex-teacher (a sheikh) tells me a lot that i have "always been a troubesome person". I reckon a comeback with your mentality would be too funny. So I gotta thank you for that..

we do not live in an Islamic state, so lets be realistic about what punishments or consequences can be done to gay people here in the West. We also need to think about things which are helpful - ie understanding them, than screaming HARAAAM

(salam)

I have edited my post that you replied to with the exceptions of an unislamic government. i advise you to go back and re read it. in short everyone must know it is haram and the harsh punishment that would be fulfilled on them.

and please do not resort to name calling. when this is be spoken of on a clearly correct station. the phrases you used and your belief about this being around since mankind was created is also flawed for Allah subhanahu wa ta ala has said in his holy qu'ran "We also Lot: He said to his people: 'Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation committed before you?" (7: 80)

And Prophet Lut (as) said to the people

"Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? And practice wickedness in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth." He said: "O my Lord! Help Thou me against people who do mischief!" (29: 28–30)

and he also said to them

“Will ye not fear? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing!” They said: “If thou desist not, O Lot! Thou wilt assuredly be cast out!” He said: “I do detest your doings. O my Lord! Deliver me and my family from such things as they do!” (26: 160–169)

and Allah subhanahu wa ta ala has said:

"When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstone's hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer, Marked as from thy Lord: Nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! (11: 83)

(wasalam)

Edited December 17, 2009 by theunknownpreacher

[kadhim]

(salam)

would you say "sheesh literalists" to our imams when they heard such a saying and spoke up saying "that phrase is wrong do not say it"?

i read, i see she said this "us muslim youth are more informed on the causes of the problem, and the stuggles one has to take to overcome their sexuality. So we are not trying to justify homosexualiy or softening it as a sin, but we are more willing to understand it than scream "HARAAM" "

do you understand what is being said here brother?

I see sympathizing with transgression, and forbidden of us proclaiming that it is a sin and haram! even if the person agrees it is a sin, they are concealing the facts then. how would people understand unless they know how sever the sin is they want to commit? and how would they know what Allah commands unless they know it is haram?

(wasalam)

I am understanding perfectly. You, on the other hand, seem to be experiencing some serious reading issues.

the phrases you used and your belief about this being around since mankind was created

Will you get over it already? It's a figure of speech. Stop trying to demonize other people for your deficiencies in English. When she says it has always been around, she doesn't literally mean always. Obviously she is not accusing Adam of gay sex acts. Obviously she is not saying gay people existed before people existed. Use your head.

was created is also flawed for Allah subhanahu wa ta ala has said in his holy qu'ran "We also Lot: He said to his people: ‘Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation committed before you?” (7: 80)

I don't have the Arabic text in front of me, but the English passage above can mean a number of things. One reading is that the acts, presumably gay sex, had never ever before been committed. Or, it means that these people were committing lewdness to level so widespread and open that it had never before been seen. As can clearly be seen from the passage, sodomy was not the only corruption practised there, but there was a widespread general level of corruption on a number of fronts. Highway robbery, corruption in the councils, etc.

[Mehvish]

I personally know a leader of a Muslim gay rights organization who works with a group of psychologists in a Muslim country to console teenagers who come to realize their controversial sexual orientations. The idea is not whether the practice of homosexuality is right or wrong (everyone is free to have an opinion on that) but its a question over how to deal with such people. Homosexuals are human beings just like the rest of us and are equally as intelligent too. These kids approach the organization after suffering emotional abuse and hostility from their peers and especially their family. People threaten them with their lives if they 'do not change their ways'. This reaction is a total oversimplification of the issue at hand. On this forum, sifting through the gay threads, the main suggestion seems to either be to get a sex change operation, or to get married and hope those feelings will fade; two very drastic and destructive paths.

As we become more and more aware of social construct it is important to address these issues in a manner that is not so backwards. To be gay is not at all a conscious decision, and people should stop treating it as such.

Back to the organization I was talking about, a lot of kids do end up committing suicide as a result of the pressure they receive from their surroundings. Its not a question of whether the expression of homosexuality is "morale" or not, its about accepting these people into society as people who are just as special and amazing as we are...and also with a test more difficult than imaginable. Also, just as with other sins, it is not our job to convict them of any deed, or judge them in any specific way. Our job is to treat them with the same level of respect and acceptance in society as we do with every one else. Besides, there are a lot of terrible people out there whose deeds get overlooked because they are not as openly obvious.

Lastly, it is important to be considerate of your social setting. A liberal society, in theory, should be completely open and indiscriminate regarding it's citizen's sexual orientation because it is no one's business how a person wants to live, and it doesn't interfere with the lives of other people. Please note that the rules of the liberal society are completely different than the ideal Islamic state and the two should not be confused.

[_jen_]

I personally know a leader of a Muslim gay rights organization who works with a group of psychologists in a Muslim country to console teenagers who come to realize their controversial sexual orientations. The idea is not whether the practice of homosexuality is right or wrong (everyone is free to have an opinion on that) but its a question over how to deal with such people. Homosexuals are human beings just like the rest of us and are equally as intelligent too. These kids approach the organization after suffering emotional abuse and hostility from their peers and especially their family. People threaten them with their lives if they 'do not change their ways'. This reaction is a total oversimplification of the issue at hand. On this forum, sifting through the gay threads, the main suggestion seems to either be to get a sex change operation, or to get married and hope those feelings will fade; two very drastic and destructive paths.

As we become more and more aware of social construct it is important to address these issues in a manner that is not so backwards. To be gay is not at all a conscious decision, and people should stop treating it as such.

Back to the organization I was talking about, a lot of kids do end up committing suicide as a result of the pressure they receive from their surroundings. Its not a question of whether the expression of homosexuality is "morale" or not, its about accepting these people into society as people who are just as special and amazing as we are...and also with a test more difficult than imaginable. Also, just as with other sins, it is not our job to convict them of any deed, or judge them in any specific way. Our job is to treat them with the same level of respect and acceptance in society as we do with every one else. Besides, there are a lot of terrible people out there whose deeds get overlooked because they are not as openly obvious.

Lastly, it is important to be considerate of your social setting. A liberal society, in theory, should be completely open and indiscriminate regarding it's citizen's sexual orientation because it is no one's business how a person wants to live, and it doesn't interfere with the lives of other people. Please note that the rules of the liberal society are completely different than the ideal Islamic state and the two should not be confused.

Its truly inspiring to see that at last there is a muslim organisation tackling homosexulaity. Rather than these kids being forced out of their muslim communities, it is reassuring to know there are people who can help them in a faith sensitive way :)

(salam)

I have edited my post that you replied to with the exceptions of an unislamic government. i advise you to go back and re read it. in short everyone must know it is haram and the harsh punishment that would be fulfilled on them.

and please do not resort to name calling. when this is be spoken of on a clearly correct station. the phrases you used and your belief about this being around since mankind was created is also flawed for Allah subhanahu wa ta ala has said in his holy qu'ran "We also Lot: He said to his people: 'Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation committed before you?" (7: 80)

And Prophet Lut (as) said to the people

"Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? And practice wickedness in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth." He said: "O my Lord! Help Thou me against people who do mischief!" (29: 28–30)

and he also said to them

“Will ye not fear? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing!” They said: “If thou desist not, O Lot! Thou wilt assuredly be cast out!” He said: “I do detest your doings. O my Lord! Deliver me and my family from such things as they do!” (26: 160–169)

and Allah subhanahu wa ta ala has said:

"When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstone's hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer, Marked as from thy Lord: Nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! (11: 83)

(wasalam)

I kinda switch off when people start preaching to me, especially when its not regarding the point of discussion. anyhow, i am familiar with the verse you present 7:80, but just because you've shown me it, it doesnt change my belief on the issue or my interpretation of the verse..

Edited December 17, 2009 by _jen_

[Marbles]

Homosexuality has always existed and will always exist. The only difference now is that (besides you guys on this thread) us muslim youth are more informed on the causes of the problem, and the stuggles one has to take to overcome their sexuality. So we are not trying to justify homosexualiy or softening it as a sin, but we are more willing to understand it than scream "HARAAM". I think this is the change in attitude that you are observing.

Homosexuality must be discussed. Its about time the muslim community stop pretending it doesnt exist...because it does. I know muslims from my own mosque who are gay, and being harsh with them, isolating them, does not help. In fact it will probably encourage them to leave Islam and try find less harsh company.

I don't have the energies to read oh-yet-another thread full of bigotry against homosexuals and the hateful treatment they get for being such. Suffice it to say that your post should have been the ending post of this thread.

Succinctly said. +1

Edited December 17, 2009 by Marbles

[Doctor_Naqvi]

(salam)

I disagree, you are not born with such a thing. it is ones very own action that they can prevent or commit. sin is not put on a person from birth it is something the individual commits by themselves. and to their own lose. and you can read above what i said about such a belief as that your born with this.

(wasalam)

Many geneticists do contradict that you're not born with this.They don't believe in,"Born the way" theory but many of them do believe that this has something to do with Ur genetic makeup.Geneticists are looking for the gay gene gene linkage so ya can't predict anything right-now.Sometimes it also depends upon the amount of Testosterone and Estrogen hormone. Many males are borne with higher amount of Estrogen than other males. They tend to have a specific femininity factor so they're usually attracted towards men.Same is the case with women.So how do ya justify Ur very objection now?Do ya still believe in issuing Death penalty for the people who're battling with raging hormone levels?

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

(wasalam)

No doubt to me that it's due to the influences of modern "morality" (or lack thereof) on many amongst us. Day in, day out, we are bombarded with this notion that acceptance of sodomite proclivities is the more enlightened, progressive, position to take, while opposition to it can only be out of a lack of intelligence, bigotry, being out of date, etc. Those who oppose such perversions as gay marriage and so on and lumped in with the same people who had opposed inter-racial marriages. Two men (or two men) engaging in sex together is seen as just another expression of love, that they are helpless in feeling how they feel, and that being against this is "homophobia".

Now, we keep talking about the difference between culture and religion. We point to customs and ideals that different ethnicities and countries amongst Muslims may hold on such issues as family life, marriage, and so on, and make a demarcation between their cultural influences and what the religion actually teaches. What we often fail to recognize is that this very same thing happens amongst us Western Muslims (whether as converts, second generation children of immigrants, etc.) So, in this culture today, we see the above trend of acceptance of homosexual behavior, and thus we find this softening amongst Muslims (particularly as you said, the youth), either in outright acceptance of it, or, a recognition of its being forbidden, but still approaching it from the angle of "It isn't allowed, but I still will respect your right to choose", and so on.

There is absolutely _no_ room for this soft approach though once you actually study what our religion teaches on this. Doesn't mean we can't have a compassionate approach to the person who is struggling with their feelings, recognizing its wrongfulness and trying to get over it. But in terms of the one who has given in their sin (and it is a sin, every time), we need to be very clear with ourselves on this. This is a sin for which Islam prescribes _death_ (ok, there is discussion in fiqh about whether it is the receiving partner or both partners that receive capital punishment, but regardless there is a death penalty involved in this issue). Not only is death prescribed here, but it's even recommended you then burn their body after they've been killed! No, I am not at all recommending we take the enforcement of the hudud in our own hands here in a kafir country, there needs to be the right conditions for these things (Islamic governance, courts, etc.) which are not here, but regardless of that the nature of the punishment itself should serve as a clear lesson to us against any such softening of our own perspective on the gravity of this offense. Words such as "homophobic" should never pass our lips except to denounce the stupidity behind such a word. Even "homosexuality" is a problematic word as it promotes this idea that attraction and sexual intercourse with a person of one's gender is an in-born trait that one is helpless to control. (The word itself was only invented later on and promoted by psychologists. Before that, it was regarded as an act)

Actually, I use this example (death followed by burning their bodies) as a counter-argument to a lot of the liberalism and even humanism we find getting promoted these days amongst us, both by laymen and some so-called scholars. There's no way you can have such a law and honestly then claim that Islam is somehow a liberal religion fully compatible with modern ideals and concepts of morality.

You don't have to be comfortable with this and being uncomfortable does not = homophobia. Homophobia is outright contempt and hatred which fuels irrational behavior and to suggest that it is an irrelevant term is simultaneously ignorant and dismissive of the plight of gays and lesbians who have been subjected to the fruits of this irrationality. Not only does it make light of that glaring reality, it also dismisses the fear some people have of a man who they believe behaves too "feminine" or a woman who isn't feminine enough which has resulted in deep psychological scars for both children and adults and is a direct result of rampant homophobia in society. Yes it does exist and we need to acknowledge and address that.. if you want to dismiss that as condescendingly enlightened or apologetically progressive.. well that says more about you than it does about the issue at hand.

Also, it is an expression of love and you can't take that away from them no matter how much you disagree with it. Love is love and you can't restrict it to something between a man and a woman even if this family structure is (in my opinion) essential for a healthy society. I am not even going to address the rest of your rubbish about how you feel the need to counter argue against humanism by pointing out Islam wants us to burn homosexuals. Lets just say you aren't being particularly helpful.

m8, just do what I do. Replace the label "homosexuality" with "homophilia", because after all, in truth, it's no different from the other sick paraphilias (necrophilia, paedophilia etc.). Giving it the label "homosexual" means that it's something that is accepted as an alternate sexuality to heterosexuality.

It is something that is accepted as an alternate sexuality to heterosexuality :huh:. The term makes perfect sense unless you are an imbecile "m8." Why didn't you add bestiality to the list since you had already decided to be illogical?

I think the answer is simple, if you are attracted to people who are of the same sex as you, get a sex change. This is the genius of Imam Khomeini's (A.S.) idea and I think it makes perfect sense.

Imam Khomenei should have studied that issue a tad more because that theory is.. well.. stupid?

Many geneticists do contradict that you're not born with this.They don't believe in,"Born the way" theory but many of them do believe that this has something to do with Ur genetic makeup.Geneticists are looking for the gay gene gene linkage so ya can't predict anything right-now.Sometimes it also depends upon the amount of Testosterone and Estrogen hormone. Many males are borne with higher amount of Estrogen than other males. They tend to have a specific femininity factor so they're usually attracted towards men.Same is the case with women.So how do ya justify Ur very objection now?Do ya still believe in issuing Death penalty for the people who're battling with raging hormone levels?

I am impressed with your knowledge ms. Naqvi :wub:

Edited December 17, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam

[TheHealer]

Many geneticists do contradict that you're not born with this.They don't believe in,"Born the way" theory but many of them do believe that this has something to do with Ur genetic makeup.Geneticists are looking for the gay gene gene linkage so ya can't predict anything right-now.Sometimes it also depends upon the amount of Testosterone and Estrogen hormone. Many males are borne with higher amount of Estrogen than other males. They tend to have a specific femininity factor so they're usually attracted towards men.Same is the case with women.So how do ya justify Ur very objection now?

From the stethoscope in your avatar, plus your love for Anatomy, i recon you to be a first year med school student. You talk like one too, no disrespect meant in the least. You sure ,you are not confusing with Hermophrodite, True-Seudo Hermophrodite with Homosexualty............the last i read a couple of years ago, i guess you are.

Anyways i recon , folks here might find this intresting, Christian oriented researcher this may be though, none the less, a research :

http://leonardooh.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/is-sexual-identity-fixed-responding-to-the-wildfire-myth-of-%E2%80%98genetic-homosexuality%E2%80%99/

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

From the stethoscope in your avatar, plus your love for Anatomy, i recon you to be a first year med school student. You talk like one too, no disrespect meant in the least. You sure ,you are not confusing with Hermophrodite, True-Seudo Hermophrodite with Homosexualty............the last i read a couple of years ago, i guess you are.

Anyways i recon , folks here might find this intresting, Christian oriented researcher this may be though, none the less, a research :

http://leonardooh.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/is-sexual-identity-fixed-responding-to-the-wildfire-myth-of-%E2%80%98genetic-homosexuality%E2%80%99/

No thanks. I'd take the findings of a palm tree more seriously than those of a christian oriented "researcher." She talks like a first year medical student because she disagrees with you.. stop pretending it has anything to do with a clever examination of context clues Sherlock. I am beginning to see why the researcher peddling his christian agenda is so much more appealing :angel:

Edited December 17, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam