Mourning and Beating in Muharram

[vista]

Yes, this is my question. I want to know why you do that. I have seen Shia Muslims hurt and bleed themselves in Muharram. Does it make sense? Do you think it gives a good impression to Muslims and Non-Muslims that we should invite to Islam? Aren't our bodies and souls Allah's creations? They shouldn't be hurt as people do while mouring. If this is ok in your opinion then better to kill yourself than just hurting and bleeding yourself, it might be more virtuous or not?

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Qina -Zani, that is, hurting oneself during Matam, shedding blood, etc. is discouraged by most (if not all) Shi'ite scholars, because of the reason you stated, i.e. it gives non-Muslim a bad impression of Muslim, Shia Muslims, to be specific.

It's is the crying and feeling the sadness of the tragedy of Karbala, that is highly encouraged. I haven't come across any hadith asking the people to shed their blood.

wa (salam)

Basim Ali Jafri

[Akbar673]

Yes, this is my question. I want to know why you do that. I have seen Shia Muslims hurt and bleed themselves in Muharram. Does it make sense? Do you think it gives a good impression to Muslims and Non-Muslims that we should invite to Islam? Aren't our bodies and souls Allah's creations? They shouldn't be hurt as people do while mouring. If this is ok in your opinion then better to kill yourself than just hurting and bleeding yourself, it might be more virtuous or not?

its way better than terrorist bombings and slaughter of innocent women and children.

In my opinion the Shia way is much better than the Salafi way.

[kaali_daal]

its way better than terrorist bombings and slaughter of innocent women and children.

In my opinion the Shia way is much better than the Salafi way.

Asalam Alaikum.

So you are comparing criminal rituals to spiritual rituals. The Shia way would be what we are taught by Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and Imam(A.S), not what the people create for publicity purposes.

Take care.

Allah Hafiz.

[Akbar673]

Asalam Alaikum.

So you are comparing criminal rituals to spiritual rituals. The Shia way would be what we are taught by Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and Imam(A.S), not what the people create for publicity purposes.

Take care.

Allah Hafiz.

so you're saying Matam is for publicity?

[Awakened]

It shouldn't simply be forbidden because of the bad impression it gives.

The fact is it self is harmful ignorant Satanic way to behave and it's inspired by none but the Sayateen and has nothing to do with the blessed light brought down and the blessed remaining face of God, and hence nothing to do with the Deen.

It's because of the Satanic ignorant disgracefulness of the act itself that it gives a bad impression. And the bad impression should be enough to forbid it, but again, like I said, it's a bad impression BECAUSE IT'S BAD.

It also gives a false view of what love of Ahlebayt (as) mean per the teachings of Quran and the whole traditions have made people ignorant of what Quran reveals the love to really being. Practices not from the revealed blessed wisdom are first seeds to ignorance, and then become the trees of ignorance.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Awakened

[naro]

Yes, this is my question. I want to know why you do that. I have seen Shia Muslims hurt and bleed themselves in Muharram. Does it make sense?

No it doesn't. [Edited]

Edited January 25, 2010 by inshaAllah
Inappropriate language

[power]

Sunni muslin brothers and sisters mourn the loss of Hussein A.S and his family however, simultaneously acknowledge the rule of the Umayyad Empire - whom we Shia's believe are responsible and hold accountable the entire tragedy - this creates a double standard

[power]

Owais Qarni (ra) knocked all his teeth out when hearing that the Prophet (pbuh) lost one tooth was that his action was wrong?

[individualist]

Sunni muslin brothers and sisters mourn the loss of Hussein A.S and his family however, simultaneously acknowledge the rule of the Umayyad Empire - whom we Shia's believe are responsible and hold accountable the entire tragedy - this creates a double standard

Whoever told you this is either a liar or has been lied to... I lived among Sunnis and never, not once did they mourn Hussein... FYI, Sunnis celebrate Ashura by fasting because they believe God saved Prophet Moses on that day from the Pharoah. So, while you're mourning Hussein, Sunnis are fasting thanking God for saving Moses!

[Awakened]

Owais Qarni (ra) knocked all his teeth out when hearing that the Prophet (pbuh) lost one tooth was that his action was wrong?

Yes it was wrong, if it was indeed praiseworthy and something to be done, Ali (as) and Fatima (as) would have done so as well and as well as the rest of the believers. But it was out of ignorance and not a well thought action. It was also due to emotion he felt at the moment, and hence was over whelmed by it, but never less, should not have reacted in the way he did.

If people start breaking their teeth every year recalling the day Prophet (pbuh) lost his tooth, no doubt they are lead and insipired by one one but Satan and it's quite unrelated with the emotion Owais Qarni felt.

Conciously a communtiy deciding to break their teeth for example, or that it's ok if some people to do so, would undoubtably manifest them as being lead by Satan and ignorance and deprived of wisdom and knowledge and spreading and leading by other then the Truth and light brought down and blessed Wisdom revealed.

And indeed this is what is manifest in the people whom teach it's ok to cut your head and teaching its 'love of Hussain (as)"...

Edited December 16, 2009 by Awakened

[power]

Yes it was wrong, if it was indeed praiseworthy and something to be done, Ali (as) and Fatima (as) would have done so as well and as well as the rest of the believers. But it was out of ignorance and not a well thought action. It was also due to emotion he felt at the moment, and hence was over whelmed by it, but never less, should not have reacted in the way he did.

If people start breaking their teeth every year recalling the day Prophet (pbuh) lost his tooth, no doubt they are lead and insipired by one one but Satan and it's quite unrelated with the emotion Owais Qarni felt.

Conciously a communtiy deciding to break their teeth for example, or that it's ok if some people to do so, would undoubtably manifest them as being lead by Satan and ignorance and deprived of wisdom and knowledge and spreading and leading by other then the Truth and light brought down and blessed Wisdom revealed.

And indeed this is what is manifest in the people whom teach it's ok to cut your head and teaching its 'love of Hussain (as)"...

Brother, there is no record in history where it suggests that the Prophet (pbuh) condemned him for breaking all his teeth that is a lot more extreme than the matam a vast vast majority of the Shias do. Imagine pulling each of your teeth out.

[Shabbar-E-Shabbir]

Sunni muslin brothers and sisters mourn the loss of Hussein A.S and his family however, simultaneously acknowledge the rule of the Umayyad Empire - whom we Shia's believe are responsible and hold accountable the entire tragedy - this creates a double standard

1. Simultaneously acknowledge the rule of the Umayyad Empire? you acknowledge that a person like yazid ibn muawiyah is suitable to be the caliph?

2. A common misconceptions of Shias by Sunnis amongst the millions. Shias were not responsible for the tragedy, infact, the only Shias that were there were either in the army, prosecuted, exiled or imprisoned. I have proof of this if you want to dwelve further in the discussion, and also the truth behind yazid ibn muawiyah if you consider him a valid caliph, or infact, the umayyad empires to be the lawful rulers of Islam in history.

[power]

Yes it was wrong, if it was indeed praiseworthy and something to be done, Ali (as) and Fatima (as) would have done so as well and as well as the rest of the believers. But it was out of ignorance and not a well thought action. It was also due to emotion he felt at the moment, and hence was over whelmed by it, but never less, should not have reacted in the way he did.

If people start breaking their teeth every year recalling the day Prophet (pbuh) lost his tooth, no doubt they are lead and insipired by one one but Satan and it's quite unrelated with the emotion Owais Qarni felt.

Conciously a communtiy deciding to break their teeth for example, or that it's ok if some people to do so, would undoubtably manifest them as being lead by Satan and ignorance and deprived of wisdom and knowledge and spreading and leading by other then the Truth and light brought down and blessed Wisdom revealed.

And indeed this is what is manifest in the people whom teach it's ok to cut your head and teaching its 'love of Hussain (as)"...

[17:109] They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.

The weeping and mourning of Yaqoob (as), extreme mourning, where he inflicted self-harm on himself, where he turned blind, this is referred to in Qur’an as Sabrun Jameel (in Surah Yusuf). Another interesting thing to note is that, as a Prophet, did Prophet Yaqoob (as) know that his son Yusuf (as) was actually alive and not dead?

[Awakened]

[17:109] They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.

The weeping and mourning of Yaqoob (as), extreme mourning, where he inflicted self-harm on himself, where he turned blind, this is referred to in Qur’an as Sabrun Jameel (in Surah Yusuf). Another interesting thing to note is that, as a Prophet, did Prophet Yaqoob (as) know that his son Yusuf (as) was actually alive and not dead?

The apparent meaning is that he knew his son was alive, he knew by his dream that Yusuf (as) would be chosen, and also what he said when they said he died and what he said later when told about his brother, shows he knew. And the grief of Yaqoub (as) was not simply about Yusuf (as) and he didn't pluck his eyes to make them blind, nor plan ceremonies with his followers to mourn Yusuf (as) and do latmiyas or azaas or anything.

And regarding Grief of Yaqoub (as) (so you don't mix his state with that of ignorant people insipired by satan to hit their heads with knives):

Sorrow is one of the marks of the gnostics, through the magnitude of what comes to them of the Unseen when they are in seclusion, and the intensity of their glorification of Allah. The outer being of the sorrowful is contraction and his inner being is expansion.

He lives with men contentedly, in a life of nearness to Allah. The sorrowful person is not a man of reflection, because he who reflects is forced to do so, while a sorrowful person is so by nature. Sorrow comes from within, and reflection begins by seeing phenomena—there is a difference between them.

Allah said in the story of Jacob,

ÅöäøóãóÇ ÃóÔúßõæ ÈóËøöí æóÍõÒúäöí Åöáóì Çááøåö æóÃóÚúáóãõ ãöäó Çááøåö ãóÇ áÇó ÊóÚúáóãõæäó

I only complain of my grief and sorrow to Allah, and I know [from Allah] what you do not know. (12:86)

This is because the knowledge gained in the state of sorrow is particular to him, and Allah has singled him out for it and left the rest of the world deprived. When Rabi' ibn Khuthaym was asked why he was sorrowful, he replied, 'Because I have demands made on me. At the right of sorrow stands contrition, and at the left of it stands silence. Sorrow is a mark of the gnostics of Allah .'

Reflection is shared by both the elite and the common folk. If sorrow were to be veiled from the hearts of the gnostics for an hour, they would have to seek help; but if it were to be placed in the hearts of others, they would dislike it. Sorrow is first, while second comes security and good news. Reflection comes second, following the establishment of one's belief in and utter need of Allah by one's seeking rescue with Him. The sorrowful person reflects, and he who reflects takes note. Each of them has a state, a science, a path, forbearance and honour.

- Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq (as) - Misbahal Shariah

[abbas110]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in theory, no scholar has forbidden these acts of love. They have only forbidden to practice certain acts out in the open in front of the public, e.g. taking shirts off, tetbeer etc . So these acts can be performed in the private and with the right intention the reward could be great, Insha Allah.

[Awakened]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in theory, no scholar has forbidden these acts of love. They have only forbidden to practice certain acts out in the open in front of the public, e.g. taking shirts off, tetbeer etc . So these acts can be performed in the private and with the right intention the reward could be great, Insha Allah.

The reward won't be great, it will simply be increase in ignorance and Satanic trees in the soul.

[abbas110]

^ I disagree and also dislike the way you have passed your verdict on the act of Owais Qarni, may Allah reward him.

[power]

The apparent meaning is that he knew his son was alive, he knew by his dream that Yusuf (as) would be chosen, and also what he said when they said he died and what he said later when told about his brother, shows he knew. And the grief of Yaqoub (as) was not simply about Yusuf (as) and he didn't pluck his eyes to make them blind, nor plan ceremonies with his followers to mourn Yusuf (as) and do latmiyas or azaas or anything.

And regarding Grief of Yaqoub (as) (so you don't mix his state with that of ignorant people insipired by satan to hit their heads with knives):

Sorrow is one of the marks of the gnostics, through the magnitude of what comes to them of the Unseen when they are in seclusion, and the intensity of their glorification of Allah. The outer being of the sorrowful is contraction and his inner being is expansion.

He lives with men contentedly, in a life of nearness to Allah. The sorrowful person is not a man of reflection, because he who reflects is forced to do so, while a sorrowful person is so by nature. Sorrow comes from within, and reflection begins by seeing phenomena—there is a difference between them.

Allah said in the story of Jacob,

ÅöäøóãóÇ ÃóÔúßõæ ÈóËøöí æóÍõÒúäöí Åöáóì Çááøåö æóÃóÚúáóãõ ãöäó Çááøåö ãóÇ áÇó ÊóÚúáóãõæäó

I only complain of my grief and sorrow to Allah, and I know [from Allah] what you do not know. (12:86)

This is because the knowledge gained in the state of sorrow is particular to him, and Allah has singled him out for it and left the rest of the world deprived. When Rabi' ibn Khuthaym was asked why he was sorrowful, he replied, 'Because I have demands made on me. At the right of sorrow stands contrition, and at the left of it stands silence. Sorrow is a mark of the gnostics of Allah .'

Reflection is shared by both the elite and the common folk. If sorrow were to be veiled from the hearts of the gnostics for an hour, they would have to seek help; but if it were to be placed in the hearts of others, they would dislike it. Sorrow is first, while second comes security and good news. Reflection comes second, following the establishment of one's belief in and utter need of Allah by one's seeking rescue with Him. The sorrowful person reflects, and he who reflects takes note. Each of them has a state, a science, a path, forbearance and honour.

- Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq (as) - Misbahal Shariah

Imam Sadiq (as) said :"My grandfather, 'Ali b. al-Husayn (as), wept over his father for twenty years. When food was put before him, he wept." One of his retainers blamed him, saying: "I fear for you lest you should perish." So the Ima`m (as) kindly said to him: "I only convey my complaints and my grief to Allah, and I know from Allah what you all do not know.Ya'qu`b (Jacob) was a prophet from whom Allah caused one of his sons to be separated. He had twelve sons, and he knew that his son (Joseph) was still alive, he wept over him till he lost his eye sight. I looked at my father, my brothers, my uncles, and my companions (and saw them) slain all around me, so how can my grief end? Whenever I remember how Fa`tima's children were slaughtered, tears choke me. Whenever I look at my aunts and sisters, I remember how they were fleeing from one tent to another."

-Al-Muqrim, Maqtal al-Husayn

-Hulyat al-Awliya'

[power]

1. Simultaneously acknowledge the rule of the Umayyad Empire? you acknowledge that a person like yazid ibn muawiyah is suitable to be the caliph?

2. A common misconceptions of Shias by Sunnis amongst the millions. Shias were not responsible for the tragedy, infact, the only Shias that were there were either in the army, prosecuted, exiled or imprisoned. I have proof of this if you want to dwelve further in the discussion, and also the truth behind yazid ibn muawiyah if you consider him a valid caliph, or infact, the umayyad empires to be the lawful rulers of Islam in history.

Is it rational to regard the killer as same as his victim? Is it reasonable to regard Muawiya as same as Ali? How is it reasonable to regard the knowledgeable as same as the ignorant?

[Aabiss_Shakari]

No it doesn't. Shia's who do this are misguided fools.

Think twice before passing any such statement. Be prepared to face Hussain Bin Ali (as) on the day of Qayamah and answer him why you passed such statement for his (as) mourners.

[Awakened]

Think twice before passing any such statement.

I have thought about it for a long time. And I have thought about in light of Suratal Anaam and I thought about the flow of what has been said about Thiker and Ayat and the noor, and then all these practices of ignorances they were practicing blinding them, and I thought about the basic Waseeya told to us, and then it being siad to be the way of the Messenger (pbuh) and so follow that way, and not to follow other ways (then his ways). And believe me Quran is never just about the past. It holds judgment on the differences of each age. He should think more then twice before saying such a statement.

But I'm more prepared to face Imam Hussain (as) rejecting innovations and it's practicers (just as taught to us to do so in Saheefa Sajadiya, Du'a Makramal Akhaq), then to come to him having not condemned satanic inspiration that is issued in his blessed Name (as).

However I am not prepared to face any of the Anbiya (as) or Ahlebayt (as) having done nothing for God's cause, and having not all helped their cause which they were ready to give everything for. And indeed, one of the crimes commited against them is ingoring their clear teachings and replacing the emptiness with baseless innovations, that does not resemble real love of Ahlebayt (as) which is remembrance and path way to God and only those possessed of understanding remember. What does what has been termed following the light brought down, ascending, taking a path to God, a straight path, have to do with this hitting on the head?

Edited December 17, 2009 by Awakened

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Whoever told you this is either a liar or has been lied to... I lived among Sunnis and never, not once did they mourn Hussein... FYI, Sunnis celebrate Ashura by fasting because they believe God saved Prophet Moses on that day from the Pharoah. So, while you're mourning Hussein, Sunnis are fasting thanking God for saving Moses!

You definitely have not lived amongst enough Sunnis, and you're not one yourself, if you say that.

They celebrate Moses' victory, but they also mourn, the death of Imam Hussain (as). Remember, mourning need not be expressed. In fact, any one who knows the least bit about Karbala and Imam Hussain (as) will feel sad for what happened to him, and his family, no matter what his sect, or what his religion. (if you watch TV a bit more, you'll find out Hindus attend the Muhrram processions on the roads)

I have met loads of Sunnis, who attend Shia lectures in Muharram in Pakistan. I would not be surprised if I came to know that a fourth of the audience in a Muharram lecture in Pakistan were Sunnis. (I'm only saying Pakistan because I am from Pakistan and have witnessed Sunnis attending the lecture there). I live here in KSA, and I have met lots of Sunni people who never fail to listen to the Ashura Urdu lectures along with their kids and family shown on TV, on the tenth of Muharram. When we have Muharram gatherings here in KSA (where it's not allowed openly), Sunnis attend too. Furthermore, many Sunnis also go to Karbala, for the same 'mourning' purpose.

You sound like, you're saying Sunnis celebrate the death of Imam Hussain (as) ! Even though many don't feel anything on Muharram (no sadness), don't consider such group of people as standard Sunnis. A Sunni is supposed to know about the tragedy, and anyone who does know about it, will mourn it (feel sad for it). Take my word for it.

If you don't mourn, you just don't know enough about the event. I recommend you read the story of Karbala, or at least listen to a Muharram lecture once.

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Yes it was wrong, if it was indeed praiseworthy and something to be done, Ali (as) and Fatima (as) would have done so as well and as well as the rest of the believers. But it was out of ignorance and not a well thought action. It was also due to emotion he felt at the moment, and hence was over whelmed by it, but never less, should not have reacted in the way he did.

Anyone overwhelmed by emotion, will hit himself. When you lose a loved one (may Allah protect all your loved ones), you will realise that. You will feel that 'emotion'.

...and it's not just losing a loved one when that happens. When one hears or witnesses something outrageously out-of-this-world happening, he will hit himself, to express protest. That is what Matam is. Anyone who thinks we're coying what happened to Imam Hussain (as) or trying to feel his pain or something, has lost his marbles. Matam was, is and is ever-lasting protest against the Yazidi forces and the likes of him.

To prove to you the history of hitting heads and as you call it, this 'foolishness' of hitting oneself, I'll show you proof, of there being no problem in hitting oneself, if you do not endanger your life:

ÝóÃóÞúÈóáóÊö ÇãúÑóÃóÊõåõ Ýöí ÕóÑóøÉò ÝóÕóßóøÊú æóÌúåóåóÇ æóÞóÇáóÊú ÚóÌõæÒñ ÚóÞöíãñ

Then his wife came up in great grief, and she struck her face and said: An old barren woman! (51:29)

From this verse, we learn that Hadhrath Sara (as) (wife of Ibrahim (as) ) struck her face when she was told (by three angels who appeared as men) that she would conceive a baby. Thus it is evident that smiting the face was not an objectionable act in the sight of Allah, otherwise Allah would have reprimanded her for doing so.

Since you find the Shia practices, foolish, I will use Sunni proofs, for showing you how often this follishness was practices, during the Prophet (pbuh):

Malik's Muwatta: Book 18, Number 18.9.29:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ata ibn Abdullah al-Khurasani that Said ibn al-Musayyab said, "A bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, beating his breast and tearing out his hair and saying, 'I am destroyed.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Why is that?', and he said, 'I had intercourse with my wife while fasting in Ramadan.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked him, 'Are you able to free a slave?', and the man said, 'No.' Then he asked him, 'Are you able to give away a camel?', and the man replied, 'No.' He said, 'Sit own,' and someone brought a large basket of dates to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he said to the man, 'Take this and give it away as sadaqa.' The man said, 'There is no one more needy than me,' and (the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace), said, 'Eat them, and fast one day for the day when you had intercourse.' "

Malik said that Ata said that he had asked Said ibn al-Musayyab how many dates there were in that basket, and he said, "Between fifteen and twenty sas.''

Malik said, "I have heard people of knowledge saying that the kaffara specified by the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, for a man who has intercourse with his wife during the day in Ramadan is not due from someone who, on a day when he is making up the fast of Ramadan, breaks his fast by having intercourse with his wife, or whatever. He only has to make up for that day."

Malik said, "This is what I like most out of what I have heard about the matter."

We see that when this man was beating his chest, and tearing his hair out, the Prophet (pbuh) neither objected to it, nor reprimanded him for the same. Also interesting to note, is the fact that this man was doing so because of spiritual pain, just like the Shias.

Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi who is regarded as one of the greatest Scholars of the Sunni Sect, describing the events at the fatal illnes of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in his book 'Modaarejun Nubuwwat' vol II page 544 records:-

"Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing (from the room of Aisha)."

He also says:

Fatima Zahra (a.s) hearing the rumour of the martyrdom of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Uhud came out of her house running and beating her head.

Do you still object to these people doing so? It was wrong?

Bilal, was chosen a Muazzin because of his piety. This same pious person is doing something foolish.

Fatimah, was the infallible daughter of the Prophet (pbuh). She couldn't be doing anything wrong or foolish.

Interesting to note, is the Prophet (pbuh) is not dead yet, and they express their grief by hitting themselves. Why do you find it foolish when we do the same for his nephew, who was brutally murdered along with his family?

If I remember right, history books also record the Prophet (pbuh) being saddened for people not lamenting over the death of his uncle after Uhud, after which the people sent their women to lament over the death of his uncle.

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Whoever told you this is either a liar or has been lied to... I lived among Sunnis and never, not once did they mourn Hussein... FYI, Sunnis celebrate Ashura by fasting because they believe God saved Prophet Moses on that day from the Pharoah. So, while you're mourning Hussein, Sunnis are fasting thanking God for saving Moses!

Moreover, I would like to add, that if they celebrate a day that is to be mourned, they are going against the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). Yes, it is the Sunnah to mourn and cry over the brutal martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as).

Ahmed and Ibn al-Dhahhak narrated from Ali (as): “I entered on the prophet (SAW) and his eyes were flooded, I said: Oh! Prophet of Allah, anyone made you angry? Why are your eyes flooded? He said: Gabriel just left me telling me that al-Hussain will be killed by the river Euphrates. He (the Prophet) said: So he (Gabriel) said: Do you want me to let you smell his dirt (from his burial pot)? I said: Yes! He reached with his hand and grabbed and handful of dirt and gave it to me. So I could not help it and my eyes were flooded.”

- (Thakhaer al-Uqba, Muhibbuldeen al-Tabari, p. 148.)

Ummul Fadhl the daughter of al-Harith said that she entered on the Messenger of Allah (SAW) and she said: “Oh! Messenger of Allah, I saw a strange dream last night. He said: And what is it? She said: It was difficult. He said: And what is it? She said: I saw, as if, a piece of your body was severed and was put in my lap! The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: You saw well - Fatima will give birth, God willing, a boy so he will be in your lap. Then Fatima gave birth to al-Hussain and he was in my lap - just as the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said. So I entered one day on the Messenger of Allah (SAW) and put him in his lap, but I noticed that the eyes of the Messenger of Allah (SAW) pouring tears! So I said: Oh! Prophet of Allah, my parents are your ransom, what is with you? He said: Gabriel (as) came to me and informed me that my nation (ummah) will kill this son of mine.”

- (al-Mustadrak al-Sahih, al-Hafidh al-Hakim al-Nisapouri, v. 3, p. 176, (al-Hakim said: “This is an authentic hadith (Sahih) on the conditions of Bukhari and Muslim but they did not print it”); Dalael al-Nubouwa, al-Hafidh al-Bayhaqi under the subject of al-Hussain (as); Cf. Ibn al-A'tham IV, (Hyderabad, 1971), p. 211-2, the author narrates this hadith using a different chain of narration.)

Umm Salamah has said: "al-Hussain entered on the Prophet (SAW), while I was sitting at the door, so I saw in the hand of the Prophet (SAW) something he turned over while (Hussain) sleeping on his stomach. I said: Oh messenger of Allah, I looked and saw you turning something over in your hand when the kid was sleeping on your stomach and your tears were pouring? He said: Gabriel came to me with the sand upon which he (Hussain) will be killed. And he informed me that my nation (umma) will kill him."

- (al-Musannaf, al-Hafidh abu Bakr bin abi Shaibah, v. 12.)

There are more traditions reporting the Prophet (pbuh) crying for Imam Hussain (as) ; al-Musnad, Ahmad bin Hanbal, v. 2, p. 60-61; al-Taba'qat al-Kubra, Ibn Saad; al-Moejam al-Kabeer, al-Hafidh al-Tabarani (on subject of al-Hussain); A'lam al-Nubuwwah, al-Mawardi al-Shafi 'I; Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi.

Imam Ali (as) also cried, for Imam Hussain (as):

Ibn Saad, Ali bin Muhammad, Yahya bin Zakariya, a man heard it from 'Amir al-Sha'bi say: "When Ali (as) passed by Karbalaa in his march to Siffien and lined up with Nainawa - a village on the Euphrates - he stopped and called one of them men: Tell aba 'Abdullah (al-Hussain ) what this land is called? He said: Karbala. Then he cried until the earth was wet from his tears. He then said: I entered on the messenger of Allah (s) and he was crying. So I said: What makes you cry? He said: Gabriel was with me, just now, and informed me: that my son al-Hussain will be killed at the banks of Furat in a location called Karbala. Then Gabriel grabbed a handful of dirt and let me smell it. So I could not help it, my eyes overflowed."

- (al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Ibn Saad; al-Musannaf, Ibn Abi Shaibeh, v. 12 (with "Patience aba 'Abdullah, patience aba 'Abdullah"); al-Moejam al-Kabeer, al-Tabarani, v. 1; Tareekh al-Shamm, Ibn 'Asakir.)

Umm e Salamah also wept for Imam Hussain (as) ;al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Ibn Saad; al-Musannaf, Ibn Abi Shaibeh, v. 12 (with "Patience aba 'Abdullah, patience aba 'Abdullah"); al-Moejam al-Kabeer, al-Tabarani, v. 1; Tareekh al-Shamm, Ibn 'Asakir.

And, the Shia, are the Ahlul Bida'a?

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[ShiaSoldier@2007]

Yes it was wrong, if it was indeed praiseworthy and something to be done, Ali (as) and Fatima (as) would have done so as well and as well as the rest of the believers. But it was out of ignorance and not a well thought action. It was also due to emotion he felt at the moment, and hence was over whelmed by it, but never less, should not have reacted in the way he did.

If people start breaking their teeth every year recalling the day Prophet (pbuh) lost his tooth, no doubt they are lead and insipired by one one but Satan and it's quite unrelated with the emotion Owais Qarni felt.

Conciously a communtiy deciding to break their teeth for example, or that it's ok if some people to do so, would undoubtably manifest them as being lead by Satan and ignorance and deprived of wisdom and knowledge and spreading and leading by other then the Truth and light brought down and blessed Wisdom revealed.

And indeed this is what is manifest in the people whom teach it's ok to cut your head and teaching its 'love of Hussain (as)"...

(bismillah) (salam)

When Khaja Owais Qarne knocked out all his teeth the Prophet of Islam (saw) did not condemn it. In fact he said "I smell love from the city of Qarn" (which is where Owais Qarne lived.)

How many people hate Muslims because they think some of us are terrorists and how many people hate muslims because some of us mourn by zanjeer and what not.

Edited December 17, 2009 by ShiaSoldier@2007

[naro]

Think twice before passing any such statement. Be prepared to face Hussain Bin Ali (as) on the day of Qayamah and answer him why you passed such statement for his (as) mourners.

I am not going to face Hussain Bin Ali on the day of Qiyamah, I am going to face God and he will be glad I did not take part in an INVENTED practice that consists of beating yourself up untill I am covered with blood.

Who is your God, Hussain or Allah ? Think twice before passing such statement.

Edited December 17, 2009 by naro

[Awakened]

The rumor of Rasool (pbuh) dying was something that occured in battle field or in the tents near it (and soon shown to be false), how did this reach Fatima's (as) house? And why would Fatima (as) accept and act on rumors? This was a fault that people paid heed to the rumors.

As for Sarah (as), ever see a kid get suprised and hit their cheeks? Yeah it doesn't hurt and it's that thing, something mankind everywhere does, it's like smiling, when people get suprised, it's often that reaction. It's not hurting face or anything like that.

As for Rasool (pbuh), he calmly showed him out he is supposed to act. Ie (the intructions he told him). Beating chest and taking hair off is not the thing to do when you do that, but exactly what the Messenger (pbuh) said.

We have a lot of hadiths to say not to react bad in any misfortune and Quran shows the reaction of believers, they may mourn, but their attitude is patience with the moto "indeed we belong to God and to him we return". This is what is enjoined by Quran.

Patience doesn't mean not being sad at all, but certainly does mean not to be overwhelmed by anything, and to be able to take everything. There is many Shia hadiths condemning tearing clothes, hitting oneself, one misfortune happens include death of a relative.

Indeed death is a norm, it's sad, but you should never over react. As for injustice to the righteous and those acting by justice, it's been history even before Quran has been revealed and there has been many battles and slaughters and presocution of believers and Awliya and thier families... But their attitude as Quran has been shown to be steadfastness and patience and hope in the future.

This has been on ongoing struggle but we are not taking part of this struggle, rather we abandoned the struggle and mourning certain points or a point while not continuing the struggle or even denying the message of it and the struggle itself or deeming it unneccesary or abrogaed...

This innovations have not helped the cause of Hussain (as), they have done the exact opposite. They helped make people blind to what it means to be a supporter of Ahlebayt (as) and a lover of the Imams (as).

And as I said the reacting in moments is quite different then this traditional thing and no way can justify hitting one's heat with a knife which was never done by any group during the time of the Imams (as) and never commanded by the Imams (as) and never praised by them.

Read Du'a makramal Akhlaq, indeed one of things we ought to pray for is to reject innovations and people following these new opinions. When I was a child, I once beated my chest that it had this red dots (in Aushura), when my teacher asked about it, I said it's from my religion. I forgot how my Dad found out (whether she told him or I told him) but he was very upset, first he said that you hurting yourself was not suppose to be done and also said the AZA (hitting chest) is not part of religion, it's tradition. AND heck I HAD no idea wth was the difference, because religion is define when we do things we feel pertain to the sacred. i didn't think of how it was defined but this was meaning understood from me as a child (and you mind has all these concepts and can organize words even if you conciously can't explain it). It's quite simple. Indeed these are part of the norm language of what religion means. You can't go define a whole no meaning that is not meant by what "deen" meant before Mohammad (pbuh) and what it means through out the world (every society will have a word for it).

It's added thing to the religion, but we know religion is defined by God, so this is why my Dad said "it's not religion, it's tradition", while it definetely is religion by what religion means in English and even what it means in Arabic.

And in fact, we have many traditions telling us to not follow innovations and in nahjul balagha, that said and then told then the old tread ways are indeed best.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Awakened

[mo87_11014]

Sallamun Alaykum

brother why are u trying to twist his words he never said Imam Hussain (as) is Allah (AW) honestly i dont know why people like you assume people are mushrik before they explain what they mean brother on the day of judgment we will be accounted for every action and beleif we hold what the brother is saying is if u for example say i will not remember and remind people about Imam Hussain (as) and how he was slaughtered by the order of Yazid (LA) then Imam Hussain (as) will ask u for example why did u not say things why did u not let people know why were u trying to stop these practices when they were reminding people about Imam Hussain (as) in the same way if i dont people about what happened to anyone on purpose bcz i am stubborn or tell people to stop practices which are showing the truth about Ahlulbayt or islam in any event then that person will ask me regarding the issue now if this normal servant can hold u accountable for an accusation or stopping others from remembering him can hold u accountable to him or her then what about the Ahlulbayt which are much higher in rank so brother understand that every act u do concerning a person u will be held accountable by Allah (AW) and that person from this door the brother is speaking to you his not saying Imam Hussain (as) is the only one that will hold u accountable only or is working with Allah (AW) as his partner in accountability what he is saying is a represantitave of Allah (AW) will hold u accountable for something which u stubbornly did to make people forget of course by Allah (AW) u will never be able to as much as u try.

the second point which id like to make is in the shia school of thought unlike the wahabis dont have a seperation between worldly issues and the religion they are interconnected and noone can seperate them as islam is the deen in which every act we do is in its feild meaning any cultiral practice like for example lets say i decide we do like a rally each year holding the holy quran and saying the hadith i leave with u two weighty things the quran and ahlulbayt something like that and every year we do this as a religious act for Allah (AW) yes the wahabi will never accept this bcz it is a BIDDA and an INVENTION which would causes people to be killed even though they themeselves allow bidda for themeselves like misyar and folding your arms together while prayer which omar invented.

thirdly the same argument has been said over and over again is this good for Islam? well if i was a non-muslim id probably say laugh at u when u say i beleive in Allah (AW) is one and u shouldnt worship idols and i see 1.5 muslims worshiping an idol which is a cubed building 5 times a day or throwing rocks at the stones or running from mountain to mountain now whether it is a cultiral mixed in with the religious practice is not the issue the logic behind the argument itself is flawed bcz why should we care what others think of Islam? let them hit their heads to the walls if they dont like it when has Islam or islamic acts mixed in with culture ever depend on non-muslim view to allow its acts.

ws wr wb

[kaali_daal]

so you're saying Matam is for publicity?

Asalam Alaikum.

With the amount of people rising to perform Matam. Some don't even know why they do it? Some do it all day without any importance of ethics, Namaz, and other pillars of Islam. There are like 2% people who do Matam for in a limit and with an understanding that it is just many of the minute ways to commemorate Karbala.

Do be Honest with you. Simple Tafakur, contemplation/relfection will help us understand apply lessons from Karbala to our lives and gain the priceless values.

I Honestly want the read the story of Karbala myself and absorb it myself. I myself need to learn a lot.

I didn't mean to say that you perform Matam for publicity nor do I have the intention to undermine Matam's importance for the people who truly value it. It just has been over done. Plus I would like to know the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and our Imams(A.S) in these days.

Take care.

Allah Hafiz.

[adota]

I think it's rather hypocritical and a little ironic (perhaps even amusing) when Sunni Muslims preach to Shias about portraying a 'bad image' during Muharram due to Matam. Last I checked, the global negative perception of Muslims was caused by those that spread the message of Islam via aggression and violence, and the ones that have skewed the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) to justify their extremist practices; specifically referring to the Salafi/Wahabi/Saudi brand of Islam that - due to its immense funding from third parties such as Britian and the CIA (for various political reasons)- is the fastest growing 'brand' of the religion, and generally what most reverts are initially introduced to.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Yes, this is my question. I want to know why you do that. I have seen Shia Muslims hurt and bleed themselves in Muharram. Does it make sense? Do you think it gives a good impression to Muslims and Non-Muslims that we should invite to Islam? Aren't our bodies and souls Allah's creations? They shouldn't be hurt as people do while mouring. If this is ok in your opinion then better to kill yourself than just hurting and bleeding yourself, it might be more virtuous or not?

This is mourning of Hussain Bin Ali (as) which is allowed even recommended to us by our Imams (as) and after them our jurists and mujtahids. It is not the business of any outsider to pass any statement on our religious rituals and mourning. We do it because our Imams (as) ordered it. Who is Nauman Bin Sabit? Who is Imam Shafai? Who is Ahmed bin Hanbal? Who is Imam Malik? I do not know and i am not bound to follow them or their scholars or their followers. We call it in law that a person does not have "locuas standii" which means place to stand on. You do not have "locus standii" to question Shia muslims that why they mourn or they should not mourn because they are not bound to listen to you.

I am not going to face Hussain Bin Ali on the day of Qiyamah, I am going to face God and he will be glad I did not take part in an INVENTED practice that consists of beating yourself up untill I am covered with blood.

Who is your God, Hussain or Allah ? Think twice before passing such statement.

You are going to face Allah but Allah has made Hussain bin Ali (as) master of paradise. Allah is just and enshallah He will not send you to a place whose master's you do not wish to face. As far as invented practice is concerned that's something entirely different topic. Mourning itself is in Islam and peoples of different parts of world do it according to their customs therefore, it is not bidah as you and other likes allege. Take the reply to the post of "naro" as part of your reply as well.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Aabiss_Shakari

[Awakened]

I think it's rather hypocritical and a little ironic (perhaps even amusing) when Sunni Muslims preach to Shias about portraying a 'bad image' during Muharram due to Matam. Last I checked, the global negative perception of Muslims was caused by those that spread the message of Islam via aggression and violence, and the ones that have skewed the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) to justify their extremist practices; specifically referring to the Salafi/Wahabi/Saudi brand of Islam that - due to its immense funding from third parties such as Britian and the CIA (for various political reasons)- is the fastest growing 'brand' of the religion, and generally what most reverts are initially introduced to.

Their isn't this global negative image of Muslims being terrorist. There is the preception that it's more frequent in them then in others and this does seem to be the case depending on what you define as terrorism. And there should be a bad view, because while every society can convince society that these acts are wrong, a very significant amount of Muslims are not convinced they are wrong and this is not only Salafis but you are right all that is emanating from them and they are giving us a bad image. The fallacy of applying to the religion is also done by us. For example, we bran Salafi doctrines with it, although it is not part of Salafi doctrines and even if their scholars are all misguided, it is irrelevant to the creed they say is true.

And indeed the fact this act of Tatbeer is accepted by a significant amount of us justifies a bad image of us as a community. It there was in Canada for example the same amount of people preaching racism or something, we would see Canada as a bad nation. (for producing and not being able to obliterate this from society).

Edited December 18, 2009 by Awakened

[AbuHope]

I think it's rather hypocritical and a little ironic (perhaps even amusing) when Sunni Muslims preach to Shias about portraying a 'bad image' during Muharram due to Matam. Last I checked, the global negative perception of Muslims was caused by those that spread the message of Islam via aggression and violence, and the ones that have skewed the teachings of the Prophet to justify their extremist practices; specifically referring to the Salafi/Wahabi/Saudi brand of Islam that - due to its immense funding from third parties such as Britian and the CIA (for various political reasons)- is the fastest growing 'brand' of the religion, and generally what most reverts are initially introduced to.

The global negative perception of Muslims has, hold on to your horses you might be surprised, nothing to do with Sunni Islam. It has to do with the modern Western World having different standards and values than Islam in general. You really think that if shi'i islam would have been the defacto islam in the whole world right now they wouldn't hate us? Trust me, there are ahadeeth in our books that they would love to kill us for, not just have a ''negative perception''.

And by the way, Sunni islam is not akin to Wahhabi Islam, and on a sidenote; Wahabi islam is not akin to Salafism, though not far from it.

And to the original topic questions... sigh.

[Awakened]

Abbas Shakri, I do believe tears should be shead for Ahlebayt (as) and Imam Hussain (as).

But these practices and traditions and way of doing it to me even makes the crying all from the way everything is done, and not really due to what happened. And they are innovations and the whole crying method membar thing is all innovation. And the sadness really happens when you read Quran and see the beauty it came with, and then how all the clear teachings of it that Imam Hussain (as) strove for and even the very struggle, is abandoned by majority of Muslims and great portion (if not majority) of Shias. And if you think about what happened to Imams (as) and their Awliya and how the knowledge was scattered mixed and finally forgotten (by almost all), it just adds on to the tragedy. They knew the consequences and Imam Hussain (as) very well knew what would happen if the Umma does not fullfil it's obligations as well as if there is not sufficient supporters. It's God's word, if you do not do it, indeed their will be much fitna and fasad.

Imam Ali Naqi (as) says in a supplication he decided to do in public (which then cause a Tyrant to die but didn't change the system), that he sought help and relied on people, but he was abandoned and betrayed. And the saddest reality is how we deny their struggle and say all they did was whisper sayings not to publicized, but rather told to others secretly and so on.. (despite verses commanding not to conceal what is revealed and show it the people and despite many verses about rising against oppressed, defending oneself, etc).

We say their "deaths" were simply from "jealousy" of the honor they had from community from some rulers, not that Imams (as) would ever rise or were really working to demolish their power and establish their authority which is God's authority and Wilayah of the blessed Final Nabi (pbuh).

It's sad how almost everywhere were "family" is mentioned of "thal-Qarba", the Surah has so much emphasized on rising up and struggling and helpings God's cause and has related to this with the Authority of God, yet we for thousands of years (or even during time of Imams (as) due to trust fabricators) have abandoned these duties and commands in Quran, which is the really way of "Tawala" and "Hub" and "support" and "following", not these innovations like stiking your head with a knife.

The biggest tragedy to happen to Ali (as) and Hassan (as) and Hussein (as) and the 9 blessed Sons of Hussain (as) is the denial of the pre-existing and never abrogating struggle. Indeed sadness lies when people whom mourn Hussain (as) use Imam Hassan (as) name to suggest we should have peace with a nation that break treaties and rules and can no way be trusted to keep an agreement as they have no shame breaking international laws and nothing is done or said about it. And indeed it's just as sad as how Imam Hassan (as) is accused of remaining in peace with a person and people that break their oaths (ie. Mauwiya broke the treaty the first day and ripped it and went on to kill Shias and also curse Imam Ali (as)) and then did notthing back, just stood their silently and did nothing to over throw Mauwiya. You read the sermon of Mina, and you know there was on on going struggle but the Awliya, the True Fuqaha were resisted by "scholars" whom have triats of "scholars" whom mourn Imam Hussain (as) today as well.

Indeed if you realize what Imam Hussain (as) is saying regarding the curse of Isa (as) and Dawood (as), you will realize, for example, the curse of Dawood (as) applies to the leaders whom did nothing while his enemies consipired and spoke evil words and were working to undermine him, just after it being shortly established by Talut (as). And is this different the silence of scholars in Iran today due to their personal interest and fear of being exposed of their corruption (and this them in general and the one too afraid to speak to lose his position with other scholars is also condemned the same way). Dawood (as) might not have been overthrown, but the seeds that could have been stopped never went away, not even in the rule of Suliaman (as) and till Auli-Dawood (as) was hated by Bani-Israel. And if the roots of Fasiqs like Musawi are not stopped, their evil words and accusations with no proof (and it being clearly condemned in Quran (suratal noor is clear)) is not condmend, stopped, and the people whom support him and did not speak against this evil conduct but could ahve like the hypocrite that everyone knows to well but is too powerful to be spoken against is not stopped, then like the rise of Talut (as) and his victory, the Khomeini (qas) victory will soon disappear, and inshallah that will not happen, but it's the same trend. And all these people "mourn" Imam Hussain (as) and Imam Hassain (as) but like I said, true love is thiker and only those possesed of understanding remember. You need to know the haq and the true teachings of Ahlebayt (as) to truly love of them, otherwise, claiming to love of them but then hating what they stand for is of no use.

And Isa (as), you should read his speech in tuhafaql Uqool and also recall happened with Yahya (as). And he talks about how oppressors and removing them and the duty of scholars/preachers whom can do these things but don't. And he talks abotu many wisdoms and see how much of his criticsim lies on us.

Indeed it pains more that what they struggled and died for, is all but abandoned. The clear teachings and well known goods are being ignored and instead ambigiuties and rhetoric has become the foundational idenity, all in the name of "love of" these blessed souls, whom, also warned and strove against innovations in the Deen.

I mean sad music can people cry, sad movies with right Music, etc, it makes people cry. The whole membar thing, and the crying voice thing, all this stirring emotion thing, makes the love based on reality or self-imposed factors (ie. the feeling with everyone, the voice, Hussainaaaaa sad way, etc, all imposing it?). Man when I was a kid I had no idea most of what was said but just cried a lot due to the atmosphere. I don't see this as "mourning" for real. Real mourning would be reading what happened and if you cry then, your mourning, if not, then your not. Or thinking about it, but otherwise, it's other various factors and the emotional conditioning of the Cyra and congregation, that makes you cry. If just reading is not good enough to make you cry, then really what is making you cry int he Crya? That same truth you know when you read it or other things?

Edited December 18, 2009 by Awakened