Islam spread by sword (jihaad)

[Basim Ali]

(salam)

Brother. could you please give details of this Tafseer.

I quoted this from the Tafsir called 'The Light of The Holy Qur'an' by Ayatullah Sayyid Kamal Faghih Imani and A Group of Muslim Scholars. Here's the Tafsir for the verse:

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/quran/light/light_03/002/256.htm

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[yonus]

Hi Naro,

Then why islamic world was turned upside down when the pope quoted : "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." ?

[Son of Placid]

They shouldn't, why should muslims improve the image of an already perfect religion for stupid unbelievers ?

I'd bet you have a broad spectrum of who are unbelievers.

[naro]

Hi Naro,

Then why islamic world was turned upside down when the pope quoted : "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." ?

Beause the islamic world today is full of ignorance, like predicted.

[individualist]

@ Qa'im

The Sword Verse was about Meccan pagans and their allies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_5

PS. except for the first 4 Caliphs, almost all other Muslim Caliphs were also tyrants.

Edited December 18, 2009 by individualist

[PeaceLoving]

Then why Islamic world was turned upside down when the Pope quoted : "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." ?

It is slanderous to say that our Prophet ordered followers to spread Islam by the sword. The Pope may have said that because some Islamic books, especially those written by extremists, do endorse such things.

The Quran' s instruction is very clear "Do not attack until they attack you first".

Most Shia historians have rejected the proposition that our Holy Prophet said such a thing. it is a decrepit lie.

I am surprised that you seem to insist on it.

It is unthinkable that the Holy Prophet would have gone against the injunctions of the Quran.

[yonus]

It is slanderous to say that our Prophet ordered followers to spread Islam by the sword. The Pope may have said that because some Islamic books, especially those written by extremists, do endorse such things.

The Quran' s instruction is very clear "Do not attack until they attack you first".

Most Shia historians have rejected the proposition that our Holy Prophet said such a thing. it is a decrepit lie.

I am surprised that you seem to insist on it.

It is unthinkable that the Holy Prophet would have gone against the injunctions of the Quran.

Ok my friend .

There are two jihaads in islaam , jihad talab (offensive jihad) and jihad daf’ (defensive jihad).

What is jihaad talab (offensive jihaad) ?

[individualist]

If I'm not mistaken, in the Quran there is only ONE verse regarding conquest:

ÞóÇÊöáõæÇú ÇáøóÐöíäó áÇó íõÄúãöäõæäó ÈöÇááøåö æóáÇó ÈöÇáúíóæúãö ÇáÂÎöÑö æóáÇó íõÍóÑøöãõæäó ãóÇ ÍóÑøóãó Çááøåõ æóÑóÓõæáõåõ æóáÇó íóÏöíäõæäó Ïöíäó ÇáúÍóÞøö ãöäó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÃõæÊõæÇú ÇáúßöÊóÇÈó ÍóÊøóì íõÚúØõæÇú ÇáúÌöÒúíóÉó Úóä íóÏò æóåõãú ÕóÇÛöÑõæäó

9:29

Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what God and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Anyway, even extremists like Al-Mas'ari believe that this ruling is limited to countries that are enemies to Islam... and according to Al-Mas'ari, Sunni Hadith defines an enemy state as one that wages wars against Muslims (of course) or persecutes Muslims within its own borders or does NOT allow Da'wa within its borders... Al-Masari gave an example of Argentina as a non-Muslim country which this ruling of conquest does not apply to. He said in Sunni Hadith, the prophet said that Muslims should be friendly with Al-Habasha as long as Al-Habasha was friendly with them (Al-Habasha back then had a tiny Muslim population who were allowed to practice their religion freely).

Personally, I believe this ruling is obsolete... we are allowed to fight only for self-defense. And yes, not all the verses in the Quran are for all time, the religion as a whole is but not necessarily every single verse... care for a proof?

[PeaceLoving]

What is jihaad talab (offensive jihaad) ?

Does not exist in Shia Islam.

A Muslim cannot attack any one except in self-defence.

[yonus]

Does not exist in Shia Islam.

A Muslim cannot attack any one except in self-defence.

DO YOU NEED MA'SOOM IN SELF-DEFENCE ?

When Imam Mahdi come will he stay and rule the islamic world or he will spread islaam in the earth !

This is jihaad attalab .

Edited December 18, 2009 by yonus

[Quisant]

DO YOU NEED MA'SOOM IN SELF-DEFENCE ?

Hello yonus,

To answer your original question, I think you are correct on all counts...

The Pope did infer that Islam cannot be the right religion because God has interacted with humans through the "Logos"  and Logos means Reason and Word, not sword.

Therefore Forced conversions and Jihad are void of Divine reason and as such they are against God's nature.

Jihad talab means attacking the kuffaar in their own lands until they become Muslim or pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. ...

The bottom line always present in debates over the internet. Often killing the discussion.

From a very popular sunny site :Islam question and answer:

There is compulsion in religion:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34770/Is%20there%20compulsion%20in%20religion

Islam spread by the sword and rulings on Jihad:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34830

And from the Shia corner:

" Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those are witless.

Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. ...Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to paradise, which can be opened only for holy warriors!

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini: Islam Is Not a Religion of Pacifists (1942)."

Wslm.

[yonus]

Therefore Forced conversions and Jihad are void of Divine reason and as such they are against God's nature.

I don't know ,I don't know , I don't know ......... God is secrets and mysteries .

O my God you are alone my refugee ,so set me on the faith .

[Quisant]

I don't know ,I don't know , I don't know ......... God is secrets and mysteries .

O my God you are alone my refugee ,so set me on the faith .

I don't know either, dear yonus,

I just believe that it is disrespectful to claim falsities about God, an abomination to worship him other than through self knowledge, and a blasphemy to give Him any name other than "reality".

The secret waits for the insight

Of eyes unclouded by longing

Those who are bound by desire

See only the outward container

(Lao Tzu)

Wslm.

[individualist]

I hate it when those so-called scholars misquote the Quran.

In one of these links they misquote 9:5 (I explained it before)... and they also misquote 8:39

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

This verse is talking about the Meccans... since Mecca/Kaaba is the seat of God's religion of Islam, the Muslims were ordered to fight the Meccans until they get back the Grand Mosque and purify it from the idols (that were worshipped along with God, hence the expression: all religion be to God, ie. all worship in the Grand Mosque be to God). Read the verses from 8:34 to 8:39.

[Quisant]

I hate it when those so-called scholars misquote the Quran.

In one of these links they misquote 9:5 (I explained it before)... and they also misquote 8:39

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

This verse is talking about the Meccans... since Mecca/Kaaba is the seat of God's religion of Islam, the Muslims were ordered to fight the Meccans until they get back the Grand Mosque and purify it from the idols (that were worshipped along with God, hence the expression: all religion be to God, ie. all worship in the Grand Mosque be to God). Read the verses from 8:34 to 8:39.

Maybe you know better than Shaikh Muhammads al Munajjid...

Nevertheless, It is argued that if suras are contextual then it is not an eternal message.

The historical context argument is not available in fact to believers, since the Quran is the eternal word of God, true and valid for always.

Wslm.

[individualist]

I'm not sure if you're agreeing that he took 8:39 out of context or not...

but anyway, not all verses are for all time... or shall I say, the religion is not dictated by every verse in the Quran... care for proof?

[individualist]

Again, not all the verses are for ALL time. In fact, there are verses that were frozen even when Muhammed was still alive (for example, the verses related to drinking: the earlier ones were obsolete even when he was stilll alive).

I usually cite such verses that were made obsolete even before the prophet's death to *try* to silence the vast majority of Muslims who do claim that ALL verses are for ALL time... and if that was not enough, I cite the following verse:

5:3

..... This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion....

This means that the religion was completed on that day (of pilgrimmage). Note that pilgrimmage is the 5-th pillar of the religion and with it the religion was completed... so for those Muslims who claim ALL Quranic verses to be parts of the religion, the above verse should (hopefully) clarify the falsehood of this invented Islamic doctorine.

Finally, it can be understood from the Quran itself that not all matters of life has been discussed, and many things are left open, all to make life easier.

5:101

O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; God pardons this, and God is Forgiving, Forbearing.

5:102

A folk before you asked (for such disclosures) and then disbelieved therein.

The 2 verses simply say: don't keep asking questions on everything, lest God reveals answers you'd dislike and reject, like others did before you. Conclusion? The Quran never claimed to have provided answers to everything, an indication of flexibility.

[PeaceLoving]

When Imam Mahdi come will he stay and rule the islamic world or he will spread islaam in the earth !

Let us wait and see. There is no need to speculate.

But I don't find any support for the view that he will attack innocent, defenceless people.

A war of aggression would mean attacking innocent, defenceless people.

[Abu Ali 2]

Finally, it can be understood from the Quran itself that not all matters of life has been discussed, and many things are left open, all to make life easier.

5:101

O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; God pardons this, and God is Forgiving, Forbearing.

5:102

A folk before you asked (for such disclosures) and then disbelieved therein.

The 2 verses simply say: don't keep asking questions on everything, lest God reveals answers you'd dislike and reject, like others did before you. Conclusion? The Quran never claimed to have provided answers to everything, an indication of flexibility.

I disagree with your interpretation of these two verses. Here some interesting hadith on the matter in Pooya/Ali commentary (tafsir) on these verses (http://www.al-islam.org/quran/process.asp?tAliCommentary=on&Sura=5&SavedSura=1&fAya=79&tAya=103&searchText=&arabicdisplay=windows)

" Every companion of the Holy Prophet was not endowed with the intelligence to understand Allah, His commands, His creation and that which governs the creation. What was given to Salman was not given to Abu Dharr, and what Abu Dharr knew was out of the reach of other companions. Only the Holy Prophet and Ali were endowed with the full, complete and perfect wisdom (Ya Sin: 12 and Nisa 54). One was the city of knowledge and the other was its gate.

These verses denounce frivolous questioning on the part of the ignorant companions, sometimes merely to abate their idle curiosity, sometimes arising out of a sense of inferiority, sometimes with shrewd cunning in order to obtain scope for individual discretion to be used in future in the name of "the demands of circumstances".

The Holy Prophet said:

"By Allah, I can tell you who among you will go to paradise, and who among you will burn in hell for ever. The whole universe is before my eyes. Beware! If I tell you about things and events, you will not like it. I have already told you all that which brings you near to Allah, so you must carry out those commands, and I have disclosed all that which separates you from Him and takes you to hell, so do not do what I have forbidden. Do not transgress the boundaries laid down by Allah. If you ask questions about the things He has not disclosed, because of His wisdom, you will find yourselves in deep trouble."

Aforetime people have asked questions of their prophets but they disbelieved them afterwards."

All knowledge is contained in the Quran, and all verses have many levels of meaning (specific, general, universal, etc.). It is not possible for us to benefit (fully) from the Quran not because of any defects in the Quran, but because of our own defects. This will become obvious to anyone who takes on a serious, academic study of the history and hadith associated with any individual ayat. Also, Allah (s.w.a.) has limited our ability to understand the meaning of the Holy Quran for our own benefit, as if a person was able to gain complete knowledge (without being spiritually prepared for it) it would weaken, not strengthen their faith.

[individualist]

I disagree with your interpretation of these two verses.

of course you do... you got your "Shia Tafsir/Hadith" and expect me to recognize its authority when I even reject the authority of Sunni scholars/Sheikhs.

Edited December 19, 2009 by individualist

[BostonJew]

This is why west or secular west dosen't want islamic or religious regime in general . I don't see big difference between violence in the bible and violence in islam ,but Jews in Israel chose democratic secular regime instead of religious one and so the west .

There is a tradition of the Holy Prophet "With the help of hair-dye turn old age into youth so that you do not resemble the Jews". When Imam Ali was asked to comment on this tradition, he said that in the early stage of Islam there were very few Muslims. The Holy Prophet advised them to look young and energetic and not to adopt the fashion of the Jews (priest) having long, white flowing beards. But the Muslims were not in minority then, theirs was a strong and powerful State, they could take up any style they liked.

Today we should also say since islam is much from ocean to ocean ,no need for jihaad (attalab) ,we should worship Allah and leave politics for secular men and let us live in democratic community like the west .

Yonus where do you live?

[yonus]

Yonus where do you live?

I don't like to say I am saudi , I am from east of arabia .

[Muhammad Asad Shah]

@younos , the Talibans are trying to spread islam by sword

see how they are flourishing

i hope i answered your question

regards and have a nice life

[naro]

@younos , the Talibans are trying to spread islam by sword

see how they are flourishing

i hope i answered your question

regards and have a nice life

talibans know nothing about the real islam, the method of spreading it is irrevelant.

Imam Mahdi is going to be a fighter aswell, except he will be wise and just.

[ShiaBen]

Whatever they say they can't cover the truth , the truth is that Jihaad is holy war against those who are non Muslims to convert them .

Yeah, that is true. Well it was back then. How else do you think you can convert millions of Zoroastrians, Hindus, and other groups? Their religions were quite dear to them. Sure some of them chose to convert because they saw a lot of opportunities and it had some kind of strong appeal to them.

However, I think this domination, was a strong change. It is like some kind of human evolution. These "lizard eating" Arab invaders had to have something special about them that made this religion so strong as it is today. If they weren't strong, there is no way they would have succeeded. So it means there must have been some strong qualities present about this religion.

For if Zoroastrianism and other similar religions were strong, they would have survived. I'm also sure technology played a strong role in their conquest.

[yonus]

These "lizard eating" Arab invaders had to have something special about them that made this religion so strong as it is today. If they weren't strong, there is no way they would have succeeded. So it means there must have been some strong qualities present about this religion.

Thank you ,

They were strong because of prophet Muhammad teachings ,he transferred them from tribal to nationalism .

Sermon 55About steadiness in the battlefield

In the company of the Prophet of Allah (pbuh) we used to fight our parents, sons, brothers and uncles, and this continued us in our faith, in submission, in our following the right path, in endurance over the pangs of pain and in our fight against the enemy. A man from our side and one from the enemy would pounce upon each other like energetic men contesting as to who would kill the other; sometime our man got over his adversary and some-time the enemy's man got over ours. When Allah had observed our truth He sent ignominy to our foe and sent His succour to us till Islam got established (like the camel) with neck on the ground and resting in its place.

[Praetorius]

Assalam Alaikum all

Okay a quick question to you all. How do you define the word Jihad?

Once I get responses from you all, I will proceed accordingly. Some of the posts here (especially those of Yonus and ShiaBen) are just miserably appalling.

[Praetorius]

Salaam,

Some muslims want to improve the image of Islam to west ,so they say that jihaad is only to defend but not attacking other non muslim countries to convert them to islam . Whatever they say they can't cover the truth , the truth is that Jihaad is holy war against those who are non muslims to convert them .

The question is was it God/Allah plan to spread his religion by jihaad for it is easier and faster than words (invitations) ?

You know what... I'm just gonna go on ahead and reply anyways. Do you even have a clue as to what the word Jihad means? It comes from the root-word Jahada which means "to struggle" or "to strive". This "struggle" takes MANY MANY forms. It ranges from making daily decisions to long term ones etc etc. Ever heard of Jihad of the mind (take for example, the struggle to cast out evil thoughts or Satan's temptations)? Or perhaps Jihad of the tongue (how to use the tongue for the betterment of your soul, for Islam etc)? Toss in the Jihad of the arms as well.

If someone comes forward and insults me, I will be tempted to punch him, but I resist. That means I'm performing Jihad. Yes it's a concept that simple yet so easily misleading thanks to the Wahabi and ignorant non-Muslim interpretation of that term.

Now Jihad of fighting is just one of these numerous forms of struggle. Yet we treat it as if it's the crown jewel of Islam (the pathetic Taliban is the perfect example of this).

I'm just sad as to how many people (not just non-Muslims but majority of Muslims) interpret this word to mean "holy war", which is plain ridiculous. Nowhere in the Quran are the words "holy war" mentioned, either independently or as an interpretation. If anyone can bring me proof from the Quran that this phrase is mentioned in such a sense, I will stop being a Muslim there and then. Go around asking people what Jihad is... I guarantee you that 80 percent of the responses will be "holy war" **double face-palm**

I will come back with a full fledged response for these ridiculous allegations that Islam was spread by the sword and that Jihad is the duty of every Muslim to perform "holy war".

[BintAlHoda]

Salaam,

Some muslims want to improve the image of Islam to west ,so they say that jihaad is only to defend but not attacking other non muslim countries to convert them to islam . Whatever they say they can't cover the truth , the truth is that Jihaad is holy war against those who are non muslims to convert them .

The question is was it God/Allah plan to spread his religion by jihaad for it is easier and faster than words (invitations) ?

no it was not, this is a very simplistic view. in the time of the early caliphates, the caliphs engaged in wars to:

1) subjugate populations but not to convert them, so they could collect taxes and jizyah (if they converted to islam, they couldn't collect jizyah, so they preferred them to stay non muslim)

2) show off to their population that they were strong and powerful muslim leaders (for instance, raids against the byzantines)

the early muslims in the umayyad and abbasid caliphates were unfortunately rather racist and did not embrace converts coming from other areas. (you can read about conflicts with the mawali, etc)

the islamic political sphere spread by the sword (like any other empire)..... but islam itself spread much more gradually.

also the world's largest muslim populations (in indonesia and india) did not become muslim through expansion of the empire but by influence of itinerant traders, mystics, etc

so you shouldn't repeat these ideas uncritically

***

as for whether it was god's plan - well we don't know what god's plan is, the line between desnity and free will is hidden.

however, we do know that god's instruction was for humans to take ali ibn abi talib as their leader, and then the rest of the imams. so if we want to talk about god's "plan", that is it.

(of course, obviously god knew what people would do)

beyond that, we really can't say...... all we can say is that this model was not supported by the imams

qur'anically, we are supposed to stand up for the mustadhafeen (the oppressed) and this is one area where we might engage in offensive jihad/war..... but this is not for spreading islam, it is for spreading what we call today 'human rights'

even when the mahdi comes, he is not going to force people to come to islam by the sword (the hadith that say that are extremely weak), it is said that people will choose to come to his system because they see how good it is

[Stardrive]

Some muslims want to improve the image of Islam to west ,so they say that jihaad is only to defend but not attacking other non muslim countries to convert them to islam . Whatever they say they can't cover the truth , the truth is that Jihaad is holy war against those who are non muslims to convert them .

Would you force an orange cat into becoming a grey cat? No matter the color, it is still a cat.

The question is was it God/Allah plan to spread his religion by jihaad for it is easier and faster than words (invitations) ?

A true warriors armour is reason, his shield is common sense, and his sword is the word of God.

[JanJozef]

Terrorists have attacked again, and this time at the center of our world, New York City and Washington DC. It is a deplorable and horrendous act that can never be condoned by any God fearing people. Like many other attacks in the past, the terrorists are linked to groups that abuse the name and laws falsely attributed to Islam to commit crimes that are abhorred and strongly condemned by God in the Quran.

While all the known religions of the world call for LOVE, PEACE, TOLERANCE, FREEDOM OF BELIEF AND MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING, many of the terrorists' acts are committed in this world by people who consider themselves religious.

[Quran 7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

Like all the other religions of God, Islam (Submission in English) promotes peace, love and harmony among the people. Actually the word "Islam" in addition to meaning submission (to God), is also derived from the Arabic word Salam (peace). The Muslims (Submitters) greet other people by saying Salaam (Peace be upon you).

[Quran 49:13]"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant. "

The religion of Islam (Submission in English), advocates freedom, peace and mutual agreement and admonishes aggression.

[Quran 5:87] ... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[Quran: 7:199] ......You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

The relations of Muslims (Submitters) with others are based primarily on peace, mutual respect and trust. The theme in the Quran is peace as long as there is no oppression or injustice that cannot be resolved by all the peaceful means available.

The religion of Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, irrespective of the cause - religious, political or social beliefs.

Quran, the Muslims' holy book and scripture declares;

[Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[Quran17:33] "You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. ....."

The laws of the previous scriptures that applied to previous generations and current generation are repeated and emphasied for the Muslims (Submitters) in the Quran. Muslims (Submitters) are commanded to follow such laws. Quran reiterates ;.

[Quran 5:32] "......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .............."

The religion of Islam condemns the killing or even the persecution of people merely because they embrace a different religion. The Quran mandates the absolute freedom of religion in a society. It does not allow Muslims to fight except for self defense and to enforce peace. It does not allow restrictions on those who disagree on religious matters. It urges the Muslims to treat such people kindly and equitably:

[Quran 2:256] "There shall be no compulsion in religion...".

[Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."

[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."

Regrettably, many terrorists groups have used the name Islam to promote their cause and this gave many non-Muslims a chance to asperse Islam and label the Muslims as terrorists. Deliberately ignored on the other hand, are terrorists who happen to be Christians or Jews.

With all the great laws established on earth by God or man, the evil among the human being, will find a way to abuse, distort or misinterpret them. This does not make these laws evil but rather proves the evil nature of these criminals.

Terrorism as an act of violence has been committed by people from all religious and political backgrounds. Terrorists who happened to be Christians ( e.g. in Bosnia, England, Ireland, Germany, Spain...etc.) and thsoe who happened to be Jewish (e.g. in Israel, Palestine and Lebanon) used their religious beliefs to claim legitimacy for the violence and terrorism they commit. Thousands of women, children and men, young and old have been killed in attempts to achieve or hold on to special interests whether political, social or "religious" .

Those who do not comprehend Islam and those who have an interest in distorting the truth about the religion of Islam, have been trying to make the word terrorists and terrorism synonymous to the religion. A mistake that had been common in the media in the West.

Several groups who called themselves Jews, Christians or Muslims, have used terrorism to force their agenda, issues or beliefs. None of these groups represent the true religion of the Jews or the Christians as much as these terrorists represent Islam.

Attacks on the civilians and the least expecting people around the world by these groups is the kind of strife that cannot be justified by any religion or under any cause and is strongly condemned in all religions including Islam as clarified by the words of God in the Quran, the Final Testament.

Some of the terrorist groups which massacre innocent people consider themselves martyrs. Those who kill the innocent people in the name of their religion or the name of God, who think of themselves as martyrs should think twice. Their act is actually strongly condemned by God in the the verses of the Quran. These people are disobeying God's commandments and the TRUTH in the Quran. Instead they blindly follow the opinion of their corrupted leaders (and scholars). It is not a surprise that God has not granted them victory. Quite the contrary they have been the most humiliated, defeated and oppressed people on earth. Worse, they are oppressed by their own rulers.

The Quran is very clear that the believers must defend themselves but never to aggress. It is true that Islam (Submission) calls for the followers to be strong. This call however is to use the strength to secure peace, provide freedom for the society and the country but never to agress unless agressed upon.

Our Creator is one and the same. The God of the Muslims is the same God of the Jews and the Christians and all the other religions. God does not permit one group the killing of innocent people of the other religions.

The blame lies with the terrorists and not the religion they claim to adhere to. Not everyone who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim as much as not every one who thinks of himself as a Jew or a Christian is one.

The religion of Islam should not be confused by what these so called Muslims have done. They actually, by the definition of the Quran, are not Muslims or at least as much Muslims as the Ku Klux Klan are good Christians. We should not let our emotions overcome our logic and understanding.

United we stand against all kinds of terrorism , as only through unity will we be able to eradicate them and bring them to justice. We will serve the terrorists cause by name calling and false accusations of everyone who happens to be a TRUE God fearing Muslim.

[AbdullaQ]

Al Salam Alikom,

Islam is NOT spread by the sword.

Please note the following is my personal observation. Allah knows best.

How is Islam spread? by preaching, not by compulsion. But, in the presence of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), or an APPOINTED (by Allah) Imam, there can be war in ONE instance: if PREACHING religion is forbidden. A clear example is Imam Hussain. I will get to this in a sec.

Why did Imam Ali (as) NOT draw blood against the first 3 khalifs? because they did not cross the line. If one of the Khalifs attempted to STOP Imam Ali from preaching or establishing Allah's rules on earth, the Imam would have raised his sword. This is EXACTLY why Imam Hussain (as) fought Yzeed (may Allah curse him). Yazeed put the Imam in front of two options, either to become an ally or to face death.

In Islam we never START war unless a ruler forcefully restricts Islam from being preached. Only then, with the presence of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) or a CHOSEN Imam, we would fight that ruler until Islam can be preached without restriction. But our goal is NOT to convert by the sword! This is a grave misconception.

I hope to Allah that we are all sincere seekers of knowledge and that may Allah guide those of us whom are sincere onto the straight path.

Peace.

yonus, isn't it better for us to try to focus more on our prayer for now? Do you know the hadith where the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said after coming back from jihad: we are back from the minor jihad and now it is time for the major jihad. When asked about this he explained that Jihad al Nafs is the major jihad. Struggling against our desires, this is the hard part. Anyone can go die of Allah, this is easy for the believers. Inshallah we can be of those believers, but how can we be believers if we do not STRUGGLE against our selves first? Allah says "Al Nafs commands evil", this is the primary conquest of any believer.

Peace.

[naro]

How is Islam spread? by preaching, not by compulsion. But, in the presence of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), or an APPOINTED (by Allah) Imam, there can be war in ONE instance: if PREACHING religion is forbidden.

In Islam we never START war unless a ruler forcefully restricts Islam from being preached. Only then, with the presence of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) or a CHOSEN Imam, we would fight that ruler until Islam can be preached without restriction. But our goal is NOT to convert by the sword! This is a grave misconception.

Why do you invent such rules ?

Since when wars can only be lead by a Prophet or an appointed Imam ? War is part of religion, it was made permissible. Any muslim ruler can engage in war if he has good reasons.

This leads me to the second point. We cannot start wars ? Why is that ? Starting a war offensively or defensively is part of war strategy and tactics, not religion. Sometimes starting a war is better than anything else. Let's invent some example : You know a country is preparing to attack you, they are getting soldiers from all over their empire and if you let them do it, your whole muslim country will get destroyed in a single day. What are you gonna do ? Stay in your house and wait until they come first ? No, you attack first, by surprise, you capture their caravans, you move your damn ass and hurry up before they outnumber you.

Wars can be started or stopped for a good reason by anyone. There is no such thing as : " Only Prophets or Imams can do wars " or " We can not start wars "

You need to separate religion and warfare.

People need to stop inventing stuff to make Islam look 100% peaceful, it is not. There is no such thing as religion of peace or religion of war, in Islam we make peace when we have to and engage in war when we have to, PERIOD.

[AbdullaQ]

So to you Imam Ali did not say "I will establish peace as long as the affairs of the Muslims are at peace"?

And sure anyone can lead war, that was not my point. But STARTING, meaning, being the cause for the beginning, of a war is not something normal people do. So if I punch you, just like that for no reason, I am now a saint? No.

Starting a war now on Israel for example, is this beginning a war? NO! this is a war that started long ago when they occupied that land.

So I point the accusation back at you. Where in your understanding of Islam is it OKAY to initiate aggression? Is your idea of Islam and the Holy Prophet a man whom sends hordes of followers to attack people for simply not believing what he does? Is this the kind of Prophet you have? That is not the Prophet I was guided to believe in. The Holy Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is much more nobel than you attribute.

Once again I stand by what I said. Unless those people REFUSED the propagation of Islam, I dont see why they should be attacked. If Allah wanted to cull the people, he would have just done the same thing he did with Prophet Nooh (as). We know Allah is Most High, Most Capable.

Peace.

Let's invent some example : You know a country is preparing to attack you, they are getting soldiers from all over their empire and if you let them do it, your whole muslim country will get destroyed in a single day. What are you gonna do ? Stay in your house and wait until they come first ? No, you attack first, by surprise, you capture their caravans, you move your damn ass and hurry up before they outnumber you.

This is exactly why you need a Prophet or an Imam. Unless you can be %100 sure they are in attack mode, can you truly attack?

Let us take your example and give it life. I am gathering my buddies in my house, they each are bringing buddies and are armed. Someone gives you information I am about to attack YOU. You ask me, I say we are not going to attack, this is a private matter. You talk to your source again, he assures you that I am going to attack you. What will you do?

If I was in your shoes, I would not attack first. but if you were a Prophet, and Allah let you know what is in my heart, and that I intended to attack you, then if you attack first it would be in retaliation NOT in beginning.

Inshallah my example is clear. Time to pray. Peace.

Edited January 12, 2010 by AbdullaQ

[BintAlHoda]

i think the thread is about

1) war to spread islam

2) war to spread the islamic political influence (such as the abbasid caliphate)

3) war to usurp territory and resources (for instance, invading iraq to steal the oil)

not war undertaken due to unfortunate political realities

actually according to school of ahlul bayt, no one but the imam has the right to wage offensive war for 1-2. what you are describing is still war in self-defense or in defense of legitimate interests, not war to expand the political territory (which is the main issue here).