Hijrah and Abu Bakr

[Basim Ali]

(bismillah)

(salam),

When one discusses the status of Abu Bakr, and his right to Khilafat (rather than Imam Ali), with a Sunni, one of the reasons he never will fail to give (for Abu Bakr's right to Khilafat) is that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) migrated with Abu Bakr, from Makkah to Madinah.

The argument is that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) chose Abu Bakr and not Imam Ali to migrate with him. This was a hint, that he preferred Abu Bakr over Imam Ali. Why did he not choose Imam Ali, and not Abu Bakr as his migrating companion?

When placing this argument, one is only seeing half of the story. The Prophet (pbuh) migrated with Abu Bakr, but he also asked asked Imam Ali to sleep on his bed, and handed him the valuables, entrusted to him by the pagans of Makkah, to their owners.

Why can't it be seen like this - the Prophet (pbuh) chose Imam Ali over Abu Bakr for keeping the valuables (and returning them), and trusted Imam Ali for keeping his life (by sleeping in his bed) and respect (by returning the valuables)? Why did he not hand Abu Bakr the valuables and gave them to Imam Ali instead? Can this not be taken as a sign that the Prophet (pbuh) preferred Imam Ali over Abu Bakr?

The Sunni argument is destroyed, by looking at it from this angle, in my view.

I would like to know Sunni views on what they think about this.

[PS: In italics are opinions, displayed as questions]

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

Edited December 16, 2009 by Basim Ali

[individualist]

Do you know what I really think?

I think Ali never cared for the leadership, nor did any of the first 3 Khalifas.... ALL 4 of them viewed the leadership as a heavy duty that was thrown over their shoulders... Sure, Uthman and Ali, each one of them, were required by some to leave the position sometime during their rule, but like the great leaders they were they didn't allow themselves to leave the leadership NOT because they wanted it... it's only because they thought that the leadership is NOT a silly game and the mob can't just dictate their demands and play with important stuff like that.

Believe me, NONE of the first 4 Khalifs wanted the leadership.

[Lord Botta]

When placing this argument, one is only seeing half of the story. The Prophet (pbuh) migrated with Abu Bakr, but he also asked asked Imam Ali to sleep on his bed, and handed him the valuables, entrusted to him by the pagans of Makkah, to their owners.

I remember reading about this. Can you provide references of Ali sleeping in the bed of the Prophet (pbuh)?

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Do you know what I really think?

I think Ali never cared for the leadership, nor did any of the first 3 Khalifas.... ALL 4 of them viewed the leadership as a heavy duty that was thrown over their shoulders... Sure, Uthman and Ali, each one of them, were required by some to leave the position sometime during their rule, but like the great leaders they were they didn't allow themselves to leave the leadership NOT because they wanted it... it's only because they thought that the leadership is NOT a silly game and the mob can't just dictate their demands and play with important stuff like that.

Believe me, NONE of the first 4 Khalifs wanted the leadership.

That is not the topic of discussion (whether or not the Khalifas wanted to be Khalifas).

To state in clear words, it's the right (and not demand) of Abu Bakr to Khilafat, as opposed to Imam Ali and vice versa.

If you would like to discuss the topic you're referring you, I suggest to start a new topic.

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

Edited December 16, 2009 by Basim Ali

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Can you provide references of Ali sleeping in the bed of the Prophet (pbuh)?

I'm surprised, you do not know much about this famous incident. It's recorded in most, (if not all) Sunni books.

Any ways, I'll just assume, you're asking for Sunni references:

...On the night of the Hijrah, Muhammad confided his plan to Ali ibn Abi Talib and asked him to cover himself with the Prophet's green mantle, and to sleep in the Prophet's bed. He further asked him to stay in Makkah until he had returned all valuables deposited with Muhammad to their owners...

- (The Life of Muhammad, Cairo, 1935 by Muhammad Husayn Haykal)

...The slayers were before his (Muhammad's) house. He gave his cloak to Ali, bidding him lie down on the bed so that anyone looking in might think Muhammad lay there...

- (Introduction to the Translation of Holy Qur’an, Lahore, 1975 by Marmaduke Pickthall)

...the pagans of Makkah hated Muhammad, yet they trusted him. Whoever had any valuables, he brought them and deposited them with him. He was their "banker." He knew about the plans of the Quraysh to kill him. He, therefore, called Ali, and said: "Allah has ordered me to go to Yathrib. You sleep in my bed and tomorrow return all the deposits of the Makkans to them." This was a situation fraught with the gravest danger. Ali also knew that Quraysh had resolved to kill the Apostle of God that night, and that to sleep in his bed was to sleep in the jaws of death. But when was Ali ever afraid of death? The conqueror of Khyber slept in the jaws of death so soundly as he had never slept in all his life...

- (Life of the Apostle of God, Azamgarh, India, 1976 by M.Shibli)

In fact, it is stated in Tafsir Kabir [also known as Mafatih al-Ghayb] (vol. II, page 189) by Fakhruddin Razi that the following verse was expressly revealed in recognition of Ali's great and glorious service on the night of Hijra when he made it possible for Muhammad, the Apostle of God, to leave Makkah. Because of Ali, he could leave in safety.

And among men is he who sells himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Affectionate to the servants. (2:207)

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[individualist]

yeah I heard this story many times in (Sunni) schools... I even received a beating by a religious teacher because I asked him a very simple question:

"Why did Ali sleep in the prophet's bed? Why endager himself for no reason whatsoever? it doesn't make any sense!"

[haideriam]

yeah I heard this story many times in (Sunni) schools... I even received a beating by a religious teacher because I asked him a very simple question:

"Why did Ali sleep in the prophet's bed? Why endager himself for no reason whatsoever? it doesn't make any sense!"

(bismillah)

(salam)

shows there has not been much progression in your mental growth, still asking the same question again.

the easiest answer is that you will have to search and think for the answer yourself, that way you will release your mental entrapment.

(wasalam)

yeah I heard this story many times in (Sunni) schools... I even received a beating by a religious teacher because I asked him a very simple question:

"Why did Ali sleep in the prophet's bed? Why endager himself for no reason whatsoever? it doesn't make any sense!"

(bismillah)

(salam)

shows there has not been much progression in your mental growth, still asking the same question again.

the easiest answer is that you will have to search and think for the answer yourself, that way you will release your mental entrapment.

(wasalam)

[Lord Botta]

I'm surprised, you do not know much about this famous incident. It's recorded in most, (if not all) Sunni books.

Hahah! I never said that I haven't heard of it. I was just questioning the authenticity of the story. I don't really have a major problem with accepting it as true, I'm just curious, that is all.

All Sunni books are too much of a hassle for you. I await a single authentic chain, that will be sufficient for me, thanks.

[individualist]

@ haider

really? How about you explain to me? What's the point of Ali sleeping in the prophet's bed when the prophet has already fled Mecca? Hmmm? Any thoughts? Please help me release my trapped brain.

[Lord Botta]

Found the hadith... it is apparently weak.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Lord Botta

[Qa'im]

(salam)

Found the hadith... it is apparently weak.

Are you sure? I thought I recall seeing Sunni tafasir talking about this story in the interpretation of 2:207

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

@ haider

really? How about you explain to me? What's the point of Ali sleeping in the prophet's bed when the prophet has already fled Mecca? Hmmm? Any thoughts? Please help me release my trapped brain.

Even though, I believe haider was a tiny bit too - er - harsh to you, I agree with him that you need to ponder a bit more.

Instead of thinking what the problem was with the teacher that he hit you for no reason, think what the problem was with you and your question, that he had to hit you.

Recall the whole scenario, again. The Prophet (pbuh) had to leave at an opportune moment, and there were assassins around his house. He asked Imam Ali (as) to sleep in his bed, covered him with his green cloak, and got out of his home. The opportune moment for the Apostle to escape came sometime after midnight when the pickets had dozed off. He silently walked through them and out of the precincts of his house.

The polytheists surrounded the house of Muhammad. They peeked inside and beheld a recumbent figure covered in a blanket, and were satisfied that their "quarry" was safe. Imagine the opposite scenario. If they had peeked and found the bed empty, they would have realised the Prophet (pbuh) had left.

Ali slept in the bed of the Prophet all night. Just before daybreak, the pagan head-hunters stormed into the house with drawn sabers to kill the Prophet. But their surprise and dismay knew no bounds when they noticed that it was Ali and not Muhammad who was sleeping in the bed. They seized Ali for questioning and possibly for torture. But the captain of the pickets told them that Muhammad could not have gone too far, and that they might still catch him if they did not waste precious time in questioning Ali whereupon they released him.

Still some questions?

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[Lord Botta]

Are you sure? I thought I recall seeing Sunni tafasir talking about this story in the interpretation of 2:207

Sunni tafseer includes weak hadiths.

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Found the hadith... it is apparently weak.

If I remember correctly, it is you who said, that some da'eef ahadith are accepted, in another thread. Why can't this be one of them?

Besides, you're saying an incident narrated by weak hadith has been promoted in Sunni books so much, that no Sunni historian forgot to record it? There must be a very valid and strong reason for all of them doing it.

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

Edited December 17, 2009 by Basim Ali

[Lord Botta]

If I remember correctly, it is you who said, that some da'eef ahadith are accepted, in another thread.

Prophetic traditions?! No, I don't believe I've said that.

Besides, you're saying an incident narrated by weak hadith has been promoted in Sunni books so much, that no Sunni historian forgot to record it? There must be a very valid and strong reason for all of them doing it.

Sure, some recorded it and denied it. Ahlul Sunnah record what is for them and against them. They record everything from Saheeh to mawdhoo'.

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

Prophetic traditions?! No, I don't believe I've said that.

I'll do a search on where you said it. Tell me how you spell, da'eef, in your usual posts, so I can search it.

Sure, some recorded it and denied it. Ahlul Sunnah record what is for them and against them. They record everything from Saheeh to mawdhoo'.

...and while recording something mawdhoo, they don't mention it's mawdhoo? :mellow:

wa (salam),

Basim Ali Jafri

[Lord Botta]

I'll do a search on where you said it. Tell me how you spell, da'eef, in your usual posts, so I can search it.

ÖÚíÝ

...and while recording something mawdhoo, they don't mention it's mawdhoo? :mellow:

Not all scholars. Especially those from the first three centuries. They believed that it was sufficient for one to mention the chain of narrations and people would just know that the hadith was a fabrication.

[Basim Ali]

ضعيف

I meant, in English. How do you spell ضعيف in English?

Not all scholars. Especially those from the first three centuries. They believed that it was sufficient for one to mention the chain of narrations and people would just know that the hadith was a fabrication.

Oh... So it's justified I guess. But the historians - modern historians - never mention a particular incident is mentioned as weak or hasan, or whatever. I don't think a weak incident should be printed in school books, and taught in school and stuff. I was taught this when I was in grade 4!

I still believe there must be concrete, Sahih evidence for it happening. Just because you, and I, can't find it, doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you can ask a Sunni sheikh or something?

wa (salam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Edited December 17, 2009 by Basim Ali

[Lord Botta]

Oh... So it's justified I guess. But the historians - modern historians - never mention a particular incident is mentioned as weak or hasan, or whatever.

Yes, it is a pity, isn't it?! Which is why I never read history from the perspective of modern historians. =)

I don't think a weak incident should be printed in school books, and taught in school and stuff. I was taught this when I was in grade 4!

Akhi, after spending a couple of decades behind a school desk, I've learned that teachers aren't as omniscient as I believed them to be. I'm currently going to a religious institute and even there I find shaikhs making a mistake when it comes to historical accounts... and you can't really compare their knowledge to a fourth grade teacher, now can you? Back in school, for years they taught us the story of the Prophet (pbuh) and Abu Bakr in the cave, with the pigeon and spider, however, I've recently found out that this historical account isn't accurate either. Try questioning things you were fed as a kid every once in a while, you'll be amazed how many tall tales you've fallen for.

I still believe there must be concrete, Sahih evidence for it happening. Just because you, and I, can't find it, doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you can ask a Sunni sheikh or something?

I remember finding Ibn Katheer bringing it up and denying the story. I also read a thread on Multaqa Ahlul Hadith that broke down the narrations of the story. This is sufficient for me.

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

I remember finding Ibn Katheer bringing it up and denying the story. I also read a thread on Multaqa Ahlul Hadith that broke down the narrations of the story. This is sufficient for me.

Well, if Imam Ali (as) did not sleep on the Prophet's (pbuh) bed, then where was he while the Prophet (pbuh) was migrating? Did he already migrate before him (but that would mean no valuable were entrusted to him)? There must be an alternate story available then?

Oh and btw, you still didn't tell me how you spell daeef in English, in your posts.

wa (salam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Edited December 17, 2009 by Basim Ali

[Lord Botta]

Well, if Imam Ali (as) did not sleep on the Prophet's (pbuh) bed, then where was he while the Prophet (pbuh) was migrating? Did he already migrate before him (but that would mean no valuable were entrusted to him)? There must be an alternate story available then?

Where was Ali during Al-Isra'a wal Mi'rage? What does that have to do with any thing?! =p

Oh and btw, you still didn't tell me how you spell daeef in English, in your posts.

*Shrugs* I spell it "dhaeef" or "dha'eef".

[Vigilare]

Yes, it is a pity, isn't it?! Which is why I never read history from the perspective of modern historians. =)

Akhi, after spending a couple of decades behind a school desk, I've learned that teachers aren't as omniscient as I believed them to be. I'm currently going to a religious institute and even there I find shaikhs making a mistake when it comes to historical accounts... and you can't really compare their knowledge to a fourth grade teacher, now can you? Back in school, for years they taught us the story of the Prophet (pbuh) and Abu Bakr in the cave, with the pigeon and spider, however, I've recently found out that this historical account isn't accurate either. Try questioning things you were fed as a kid every once in a while, you'll be amazed how many tall tales you've fallen for.

I remember finding Ibn Katheer bringing it up and denying the story. I also read a thread on Multaqa Ahlul Hadith that broke down the narrations of the story. This is sufficient for me.

(salam)

What history books would you recommend? In English?

Could you also elaborate on the account of the cave? Which part isn't accurate?

thank you

[Lord Botta]

What history books would you recommend? In English?

Sorry, I cannot recommend anything in English. The classical books I read haven't been translated, or at least not that I am aware of.

Could you also elaborate on the account of the cave? Which part isn't accurate?

Oh, just the specific part about the pigeon building a next and the spider building a web to hide the Prophet (pbuh) and Abu Bakr (raa). There was a cave. There was a migration. There was an event that involved the Makkan Pagans appearing at the cave entrance. However, there is no mention of a spider or a pigeon.

[Vigilare]

Sorry, I cannot recommend anything in English. The classical books I read haven't been translated, or at least not that I am aware of.

Ok, I need to fully learn Arabic so I shall more effort to do so. Could you give me the names of the books you read?

Oh, just the specific part about the pigeon building a next and the spider building a web to hide the Prophet (pbuh) and Abu Bakr (raa). There was a cave. There was a migration. There was an event that involved the Makkan Pagans appearing at the cave entrance. However, there is no mention of a spider or a pigeon.

Interesting. That, and the story of Imam Ali, I thought had been accepted as truths much like the cave itself. If the web wasn't there, I wonder what made the Makkan's turn away and leave?

[Awakened]

Interesting. That, and the story of Imam Ali, I thought had been accepted as truths much like the cave itself. If the web wasn't there, I wonder what made the Makkan's turn away and leave?

You know I don't thik they didn't see him. If you see the talk of aiding with Junood it always had to do with help for battle, I think Mohammad (pbuh) was helped immensely and did a miracle (they deemed him weak but today their heroes got beat up single handily with Mohammad (pbuh) and their word was made the lowest that it ever has been (they came to kill him, they didn't know where he was, some how they figured to go the cave, and they did find him, and yes yes yes they got him right? no I don't think so, Allah (swt) aides him with all these unseen forces and the tranquility and Sabr is upon him and he single takes them all on. And I would not be suprised if he had no sword with him and he did that. This is the utmost disgrace to them and shows that if Allah (swT) pleases, Mohammad (pbuh) can singly take them all on if Allah (swt) so wishes (this going to cave is all part of just being part of the norms of the world and it was not even necessary for him to move from his home).

If it was spider and what not, why need of all these unseen forces? I mean through out Quran, those forces have been shown to aide during times of battle. I would not be surpised if all the hadiths saying otherwise were done to cover the Shame those leaders faced that day or perhaps to glorify Abu baker, either or both.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Awakened

[Vigilare]

You know I don't thik they didn't see him. And I don't think any of them made it out alive. If you see the talk of aiding with Junood it always had to do with help for battle, I think Mohammad (pbuh) was helped immensely and did a miracle (they deemed him weak but today their heroes got beat up single handily with Mohammad (pbuh) and their word was made the lowest that it ever has been (they came to kill him, they didn't know where he was, some how they figured to go the cave, and they did find him, and yes yes yes they got him right? no I don't think so, Allah (swt) aides him with all these unseen forces and the tranquility and Sabr is upon him and he single takes them all on. And I would not be suprised if he had no sword with him and he did that. This is the utmost disgrace to them and shows that if Allah (swT) pleases, Mohammad (pbuh) can singly take them all on if Allah (swt) so wishes (this going to cave is all part of just being part of the norms of the world and it was not even necessary for him to move from his home).

If it was spider and what not, why need of all these unseen forces? I mean through out Quran, those forces have been shown to aide during times of battle. I would not be surpised if all the hadiths saying otherwise were done to cover the Shame those leaders faced that day or perhaps to Glorify Abu baker, either or both.

(salam)

At the time of that event there was nothing about fighting the makaans/mushriks. If the spider is a fabricated part of history by say someone who wanted to show how special Muhammad (pbuh) was (i.e. "Look, even animals and insect helped him for the sake of Allah swt") then the author could have quite easily have said that the makaans had come into the cave but Muhammad (pbuh) was hidden by the wings of angels etc and hence they could not see him.

Not that I disagree with you in terms of who was superior though...

I'll ask a few scholars about this, but it would be helpful to know the names of the orginal sources.

[Lord Botta]

Ok, I need to fully learn Arabic so I shall more effort to do so. Could you give me the names of the books you read?

Currently reading Maghazi Ibn Abi Shaybah. It is a very short history book and it isn't all that special. It has some interesting facts and I appreciate that most of it is authentic. However, it is very short and won't fill you in on the details. I've been reading Al-Bidaya wal Nihaya for a while now. It is quite a large work. Around fourteen volumes or so. I suggest this if you have the time.

Interesting. That, and the story of Imam Ali, I thought had been accepted as truths much like the cave itself. If the web wasn't there, I wonder what made the Makkan's turn away and leave?

Yeah, I felt the same way for quite a long time up until I read what scholars had to say about it. I can't be sure why the Makkans left either.

[Awakened]

(salam)

At the time of that event there was nothing about fighting the makaans/mushriks. If the spider is a fabricated part of history by say someone who wanted to show how special Muhammad (pbuh) was (i.e. "Look, even animals and insect helped him for the sake of Allah swt") then the author could have quite easily have said that the makaans had come into the cave but Muhammad (pbuh) was hidden by the wings of angels etc and hence they could not see him.

Not that I disagree with you in terms of who was superior though...

I'll ask a few scholars about this, but it would be helpful to know the names of the orginal sources.

(salam)

Yes but look at the context the verse ended up in and how the past even is referred to. It's about advising to fight and help... right.

It's a reminder of even if they don't help him, indeed God helped him (ie. let's say they all stop fighting and don't respond to his call, so what, few believers, and even him ALONE let's say), it's saying so what, Indeed God can help him if he wants. If they help, it's really for their benefit more then his. Indeed he has already written then Mohammad (pbuh) would be victorious. Indeed Allah (swt) was sufficient for him, and as well whom followed him of the believers were always sufficient for him. If these people don't respond to him, it won't change anything. And the spider and what not, doesn't show this. what shows it is how God can aide with Unseen forces and tranquility and turn any tide of battle he wants. This was shown in the talk of Talut (as) as well.

I simply don't see how simply not finding him made their word the lowest as well, and I think by how the hidden forces have been mentioned, it refers to help in battle....

Edited December 18, 2009 by Awakened

[individualist]

@ Basim

The polytheists surrounded the house of Muhammad. They peeked inside

Ok, so was it a rule back then that people should keep their windows open when they're asleep? I mean why not shut the window?

and beheld a recumbent figure covered in a blanket,

Here's where it gets interesting... why not stuff his bed and cover it with a cloak without unnecessarily endagering Ali's life?

and were satisfied that their "quarry" was safe. Imagine the opposite scenario. If they had peeked and found the bed empty, they would have realised the Prophet had left.

Like I said, there was no need for a window to be left open, nor there was a rule against stuffing the cloak of the prophet, instead of unnecessarily endagering Ali's body.

Ali slept in the bed of the Prophet all night. Just before daybreak, the pagan head-hunters stormed into the house with drawn sabers to kill the Prophet. But their surprise and dismay knew no bounds when they noticed that it was Ali and not Muhammad who was sleeping in the bed.

You mean before striking the figure sleeping the bed they had to check first who it was? If I were an assassin, I'd strike first and check later... was it a stroke of luck perhaps? But why did Ali think he'd be so lucky? Why not stuff the cloak with pillows and stuff? why not close the window so that no one could peek? In fact why did the prophet agree to UNNECESSARILY endager Ali's life?

They seized Ali for questioning and possibly for torture. But the captain of the pickets told them that Muhammad could not have gone too far, and that they might still catch him if they did not waste precious time in questioning Ali whereupon they released him.

Hmmm? I would have taken Ali with me and kept torturing him on the road until I found the prophet... but if the cloak was stuffed with pillows for example, I couldn't have tortured the pillows... or if the window was closed, I couldn't have peeked in the first place...

Still some questions?

yeah... why did they have to stay up all night waiting for day break? Please teacher, don't hit me... these are all legitimate questions.

[AbuHope]

Funny how every hadeeth mentioning any merit of any member of Ahlul Bayt (as) are daeef.

Makes you think who made up all the rules of categorizing ahadeeth.

[SayYaAli]

@ Basim

I mean why not shut the window?

why not stuff his bed and cover it with a cloak without unnecessarily endagering Ali's life?

You mean before striking the figure sleeping the bed they had to check first who it was? If I were an assassin, I'd strike first and check later... was it a stroke of luck perhaps? But why did Ali think he'd be so lucky? Why not stuff the cloak with pillows and stuff? why not close the window so that no one could peek? In fact why did the prophet agree to UNNECESSARILY endager Ali's life?

Hmmm? I would have taken Ali with me and kept torturing him on the road until I found the prophet... but if the cloak was stuffed with pillows for example, I couldn't have tortured the pillows... or if the window was closed, I couldn't have peeked in the first place...

why did they have to stay up all night waiting for day break? Please teacher, don't hit me... these are all legitimate questions.

Why did the Prophet have to hide in a cave? Why couldn't Allah make the Kuffar disappear in a poof of dust? Why did Allah order Hazrat Ibrahim to sacrifice his son? Why anything?

You're missing the point anyway. It was one more way of showing Ali's (a.s.) trust in Allah and obedience to the Prophet ?

If you want to disprove the incident asking why this and that isn't helpful. The methods Allah uses is not under scrutiny.

[Lord Botta]

Funny how every hadeeth mentioning any merit of any member of Ahlul Bayt (as) are daeef.

Makes you think who made up all the rules of categorizing ahadeeth.

Mmm... Perhaps I should get on my time machine and inform Shu'ba that hadith Al-Manzila, Al-Thaqalain, Al-Kisa got through. and that he should be stricter with his shaikhs.

[individualist]

Why did the Prophet have to hide in a cave?

Because Meccans wanted to kill him.

Why couldn't Allah make the Kuffar disappear in a poof of dust?

God never did this with the people of any prophet until all other means were exhausted.

Why did Allah order Hazrat Ibrahim to sacrifice his son?

I think for two reasons:

First, this was to set an example of great faith but MORE importantly, God was teaching Abraham (and all humanity) that He is NOT this kind of God! Unlike false pagan gods, the true God never demands sacrificing humans at altars!

Why anything?

Could you be more specific?

You're missing the point anyway. It was one more way of showing Ali's (a.s.) trust in Allah and obedience to the Prophet ?

Believe me I didn't miss this point at all! It's just the whole story sounds extremely weak on every front.

If you want to disprove the incident asking why this and that isn't helpful. The methods Allah uses is not under scrutiny.

Really?! Ok, then why don't you believe that Yahweh (the Biblical God) has sent His only begotten son (Jesus) to be tortured and nailed to the cross so that Yahweh can forgive you? This sacrifice was completely needles... if God wants to forgive me, He does not have to kill His son... same thing with Ali, his needless stay in the prophet's bed, endangering his life for no reason whatsoever is not convincing at all and if you say God's ways should not be under scrutiny then you might as well become a Christian.

[SayYaAli]

Really?! Ok, then why don't you believe that Yahweh (the Biblical God) has sent His only begotten son (Jesus) to be tortured and nailed to the cross so that Yahweh can forgive you? This sacrifice was completely needles... if God wants to forgive me, He does not have to kill His son... same thing with Ali, his needless stay in the prophet's bed, endangering his life for no reason whatsoever is not convincing at all and if you say God's ways should not be under scrutiny then you might as well become a Christian.

And that's where your folly lies. Hazrat Ali (a.s) did not die. I think Allah might have known that was going to happen. He is God after all...

[individualist]

you missed the point... I was arguing against your suggestion that I should shut my brains just because this story is reported in some religious source... I was arguing if I'm supposed to shut my brain and believe anything in a scripture without questioning then I might become a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc.