Women in Islam Part One

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 16, 2009

Greetings all,

Before I get into my main points I first want to state that my intention is not to offend or attack anyone, but to seek knowledge and understanding. If you believe I have a different agenda than I hope you can prove it, because I know where my heart is.

Muslims always speak about how the status of women has been raised in Islam and many of the points that they do raise I actually agree with, on the other hand there are many circumstances which put severe doubt in my mind whether women’s status has even changed much by Islam.

One example which jumps into mind has to be Chapter two verses 282 which read:

... Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her (Yusuf Ali)

...let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other (Shakir)

Now that for me is a problem; for a few reasons which I believe are quite obvious. What shocked me more is what Imam Ali (for respect to all the Shia I will call all the Imams and Prophets by their titles) said about women (ironically enough he even makes a comment about this very verse)

SERMON 80

After the Battle of Jamal (1) Concerning Women and Their Short comings.

O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils.

‘’Nahj-ul-balaghah Sermon 80, from the section of his sermon, letters, and sayings’’

Now my question to all the Muslims is why is this so?

Lady Fatima I bet you is ten times better than most men out there who claim to be Muslims yet due to nature and her creation she is deficient?

Now maybe the translator was ignorant about the word he translated as deficient and it meant something else, or quite possible this is a weak sermon in regards to it being not authentic.

I hope this can be clarified, because one of the main reasons I stopped being and believing is due to this area of Islam (the respect towards women).

The commentator of this sermon actually points out what the Imam is referring to, since I am asking about only one I verse I will only cite that one area of the commentary:

‘’The second weakness is that their natural propensities do not admit of full performance of their intelligence. Therefore nature has given them the power of intelligence only in accordance with the scope of their activities which can guide them in pregnancy delivery child nursing child care and house-hold affairs. On the basis of this weakness of mind and intelligence their evidence has not been accorded the status of man's evidence as Allah says:

. . . then call to witness two witnesses from among your men and’’

The commentary can be found right under the sermon, and here is where I got all my references from:

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/

individualist · December 16, 2009

Let's forget about Qurann for a second... your nickname implies that you are an atheist.

I will go ahead and pretend that you became atheists because you think the Quran is false, right? But I don't understand.. if the Quran is false, how does this mean that God does NOT exist?

I'm sorry if my question is completely off topic, but answering your original question is already in the verse itself.. the verse assumes that a woman's memory isn't always very sharp on details. This is usually truly of emotional beings. Even a man, when he has a very emotional nature, witnessing a murder for example, might be shocked and the state of his mind wouldn't enable him to describe all the details accurately.

Since, on average, women are gentle emotional beings, they might be a bit off when it comes to details of a crime.

As for Hadith, I always take it with a grain of salt (I'm an ex-Sunni, by the way).

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 16, 2009

Hey, okay let me answer the first part of your question.

I am an atheist just as you are. What does that mean? Well a few things. Richard Watson defined an Atheist as being a person who does not believe in the existence of a God. You do not believe that Zeus exists, or Thor so in that sense you are an Atheist.

I left Christianity after reading the bible and the texts of history, and came to Islam and then left Islam because of the Quran and Hadiths.

I became an Atheist after learning about evolution and examining the facts for such a theory. So me being an Atheist has to do with the theory proposed by Darwin, though one shouldn’t call it a theory since it can be proven, unfortunately this topic is not a forum for such a discussion.

Now as to your reply, there are two problems

You said the following:’’ the verse assumes that a woman's memory isn't always very sharp on details. This is usually truly of emotional beings. Even a man, when he has a very emotional nature, witnessing a murder for example, might be shocked and the state of his mind wouldn't enable him to describe all the details accurately.’’

The verse says that a woman is more likely than a man to err and the hadith states that women are deficient in intelligence due to the verse of 282.

The verse or sermon isn’t assuming such a thing (as you said) it is a statement and a warning to us. Now your example is a weak one for two reasons (I mean no offense with that statement).

A) It is contract that a female needs to be a witness to ( the contract dealing with a written statement about future obligations) not to a murder. So your example about men and being a witness to a murder does and cannot apply here. You propose a theory for why a female needs an extra helper though from the Quranic verse we don’t know why a women needs an extra supporter for some reason the Quran doesn’t state (though one could argue the hadith does). Unless you can support your claim with a hadith or a verse.

B ) Can you show me anywhere in the Quran where it states that if you don’t have two female witnesses get one female and two males in case he errs? No this idea of an extra supporter is only for women.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Atheist_for_a_reason

individualist · December 16, 2009

Hey, okay let me answer the first part of your question.
I am an atheist just as you are. What does that mean? Well a few things. Richard Watson defined an Atheist as being a person who does not believe in the existence of a God. You do not believe that Zeus exists, or Thor so in that sense you are an Atheist.

Wrong definition. An atheist believes in NO God(s) whatsoever.

I left Christianity after reading the bible and the texts of history, and came to Islam and then left Islam because of the Quran and Hadiths.

So? Why do you have to be a Christian or a Muslim... become a Deist!

I became an Atheist after learning about evolution and examining the facts for such a theory. So me being an Atheist has to do with the theory proposed by Darwin, though one shouldn’t call it a theory since it can be proven, unfortunately this topic is not a forum for such a discussion.

I believe in evolution too and I am still a Muslim... you can open a new thread in the proper subforum and we can discuss things there in more detail.

Now as to your reply, there are two problems
You said the following:’’ the verse assumes that a woman's memory isn't always very sharp on details. This is usually truly of emotional beings. Even a man, when he has a very emotional nature, witnessing a murder for example, might be shocked and the state of his mind wouldn't enable him to describe all the details accurately.’’
The verse says that a woman is more likely than a man to err and the hadith states that women are deficient in intelligence due to the verse of 282.

Like I said.. I am an ex-Sunni. I use Hadith only when I think it makes sense.

Now 2:282 does say "lest one of them get lost (on details) so the other REMINDS her"... that's the literal translaion of the verse... the verse assumes women are more susceptible to be forgetful (of details).

Now, why does the Quran assume that women are more susceptible to be forgetful, I had to assume that it is due to their emotional nature... women are more likely to be moved by their emotions than men are...

The verse or sermon isn’t assuming such a thing (as you said) it is a statement and a warning to us. Now your example is a weak one for two reasons (I mean no offense with that statement).
A) It is contract that a female needs to be a witness to ( the contract dealing with a written statement about future obligations) not to a murder. So your example about men and being a witness to a murder does and cannot apply here. You propose a theory for why a female needs an extra helper though from the Quranic verse we don’t know why a women needs an extra supporter for some reason the Quran doesn’t state (though one could argue the hadith does). Unless you can support your claim with a hadith or a verse.

People generally are biased by their emotions... sometimes your brain supresses information according to your biases (or to protect you from traumatic episodes). So when witnessing a contract, an emotion-filled person can be easily biased and as such their brains might suppress information in accordance with their biases.... In short, I personally think that the two female witnesses requirement is set because the issue is women are easily moved by their emotions... HOWEVER the verse does not explain why... it merely mentions the tendency of females to miss bits of information (thus they might need to be reminded).

B ) Can you show me anywhere in the Quran where it states that if you don’t have two female witnesses get one female and two males in case he errs? No this idea of an extra supporter is only for women.

I explained above that the verse assumes that women are susceptible to forgetting details. The very phrase "so the one of them REMIND the other" was used in the verse.

I am a native Arabic speaker with very good knowledge of classical Arabic by the way.

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 16, 2009

Greetings,

I would get into the definition with you about what an Atheist means, and whether Islam is indeed compatible with evolution (which I am willing to bet is not) but we can create a new topic for that.

You State: Like I said... I am an ex-Sunni. I use Hadith only when I think it makes sense.

Response: I hope you understand how weak of a response that is? You cannot just cherry pick hadiths. I highly recommend you learn more about Hadiths and how to tell whether a hadith is Sahih on the premise of the chain of narration not on whether it makes sense or not which with all due respect has to be the most absurd claim I have ever heard.

In summary you quite possibly are the only Shia Muslim who picks hadith on the premise of whether or not it makes sense...

You State: Now 2:282 does say "lest one of them get lost (on details) so the other REMINDS her"... that's the literal translation of the verse... the verse assumes women are more susceptible to be forgetful (of details).

Now, why does the Quran assume that women are more susceptible to be forgetful, I had to assume that it is due to their emotional nature... women are more likely to be moved by their emotions than men are...

Response: I hope you understand that all the major and most popular translators disagree with you, but I am sure you already know that.

Now there is the second problem, you assume and come to your own conclusion on this topic, is there any hadith (which according to your own and minority logic makes sense?) which agrees with you?

Well from what we know there is a hadith on this part but you reject it, and why do you reject it? Due to the fact that it does not make any sense to you... I hope you understand the problem with your replies.

You State: People generally are biased by their emotions... sometimes your brain supresses information according to your biases (or to protect you from traumatic episodes). So when witnessing a contract, an emotion-filled person can be easily biased and as such their brains might suppress information in accordance with their biases.... In short, I personally think that the two female witnesses requirement is set because the issue is women are easily moved by their emotions... HOWEVER the verse does not explain why... it merely mentions the tendency of females to miss bits of information (thus they might need to be reminded).

Response: let us forget the fact that you have nothing to support your claims about the brain suppressing information according to your biases (which rationally speaking is quite comical) and let us forget all of your other quite baseless and ridiculous claims and center to the fact that you have no proof in regards to this verse being due to emotions. The only hadith which I have found on this subject is clear but you reject is because it doesn’t make sense, which is the most ridiculous response I have ever heard.

I want to make point summaries so you know what I need answered.

A) You reject hadith which don’t make sense, do you understand how weak of a response that is (in regards to rejecting the sermon of Imam Ali). Secondly does ANY Shia agree with that being a way to determine whether you can reject a hadith or not?

B) Why do most translations translate the verse differently than you?

C) Do you have any hadith which support your claim that this is being due to emotion (in regards to 282)?

D) If you don’t, then what gives you the right to state that this verse is due to females’ emotion?

E) Prove women are more emotional than men and hence cannot be witnesses for anything dealing with future obligations with future obligations (not with murder, or adultery)

F) Why have I been able to prove everything I state and you have not?

G) Even in regards to a definition I quote you my source for the definition you just state that I was wrong and you went on your way

December 16, 2009

Do those verses and haddiths breed sexism and empower misogynists? Yes they do. Were they intended to do so? No they were not. The whole aspect of interpretation is critical but is undermined by the reality of female oppression in countries where these haddiths are used to justify the insecurities of men.

We can debate here all day long but let me guarantee you one thing: we will not agree or have anything remotely resembling constructive dialogue because that is not the reason you are here and it isn't the reason most shiachatters are going to post on this thread. You are an "atheist for a reason" and this thread is simply a way to disguise those reasons as questions poised to a bunch of Muslim men who don't know very much to begin with (owning a man on shiachat isnt a gotcha moment to be proud of) and who will respond with the same lack of desire to learn anything.

You want to spew talking points and copy paste haddiths? Fine. But please, for the sake of all that is holy :!!!: , don't pretend you are genuinely interested in anything else.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 16, 2009

Individualist my response to you is above Zahartul Islam so don’t think I have not replied to you

Now to you Zahartul Islam,

You State: Do those verses and haddiths breed sexism and empower misogynists? Yes they do. Were they intended to do so? No they were not. The whole aspect of interpretation is critical but is undermined by the reality of female oppression in countries where these haddiths are used to justify the insecurities of men.

Response: So you agree with me? Thank you.

It is weird because ACCORDING TO YOU these verses and hadith breed sexism and empower misogynist, but they did not mean to?

So are you saying God made a mistake or was unable to properly explain what he means? And Imam Ali did he mean something else that we just do not understand? If so can you prove such a thing?

You State: We can debate here all day long but let me guarantee you one thing: We will not agree or have anything remotely resembling constructive dialogue because that is not the reason you are here and it isn't the reason most shiachatters are going to post on this thread.

Response: But you DID agree with me, so... once again you did agree with me, this verse and sermon does breed sexism...

You State: You are an "atheist for a reason" and this thread is simply a way to disguise those reasons as questions poised to a bunch of Muslim men who don't know very much to begin with. You want to spew talking points and copy paste haddiths? Fine. Just please, for the sake of all that is holy , don't pretend you are genuinely or sincerely interested in anything else.

Response: I am sincere, do you think I want to believe in evolution? Do you think I want to die and that is it? I would love to believe in a heaven I would love to believe in eternal paradise but the evidence is not there due to many reasons. I hate how you assume my intentions which are opposite to what you are stating but there is no point in proving to you my intentions because it seems as if you have already made your point about me.

Yes I am an Atheist for a reason: The reason being that there is proof for evolution and not for religion.

individualist · December 16, 2009

Greetings,
I would get into the definition with you about what an Atheist means, and whether Islam is indeed compatible with evolution (which I am willing to bet is not) but we can create a new topic for that.

Go ahead.. open a new thread... and no, I never said that the Quran is a science book! I can explain more if you open that thread.

You State: Like I said... I am an ex-Sunni. I use Hadith only when I think it makes sense.
Response: I hope you understand how weak of a response that is? You cannot just cherry pick hadiths. I highly recommend you learn more about Hadiths and how to tell whether a hadith is Sahih on the premise of the chain of narration not on whether it makes sense or not which with all due respect has to be the most absurd claim I have ever heard.
In summary you quite possibly are the only Shia Muslim who picks hadith on the premise of whether or not it makes sense...

First off I never was a Shia Muslim... I said I was a Sunni and stopped being one. Anyway, I am playing by the rules, here they are:

The Quran claims to be sacred + uncorruptable while Hadith does NOT claim sacredness + it claims it's corruptable (according to Sunni Hadith).

A few scholars sat down, wrote books and told us: "Here, we guarantee you these Hadiths are NOT corrupted". Now, what rules are you talking about? Did the Quran (or even some weird "Sunni" Hadith) claim that the scholars have authority over Muslims? hmm? I don't recall where clerics were given any authority over Muslims. Until you produce any evidence of such "rules", you have no grounds for claiming that I'm changing them...

Response: I hope you understand that all the major and most popular translators disagree with you, but I am sure you already know that.
Now there is the second problem, you assume and come to your own conclusion on this topic, is there any hadith (which according to your own and minority logic makes sense?) which agrees with you?
Well from what we know there is a hadith on this part but you reject it, and why do you reject it? Due to the fact that it does not make any sense to you... I hope you understand the problem with your replies.

Are you saying that I LIED in my literal translation? The QURAN does literally say what I have written: "lest one of them get lost so the other reminds her"... the rest is of course a speculation. I can never be sure why the Quran assumes females tend to be more forgetful.

Oh, and please don't expect me to submit to the authenticity of Shiite Hadith when I don't even view Sunni Hadith to be authentic. (there are many laughable errors and contradictions within Hadith itself TOOOOO many such errors).

let us forget the fact that you have nothing to support your claims about the brain suppressing information according to your biases (which rationally speaking is quite comical)
If you are too ignorant as to have no basic knowlege of pyschology, that is not my problem.
and let us forget all of your other quite baseless and ridiculous claims

Listen you! I don't tolerate to be spoken to with such language... if you insist on using this language with me, I'll have to deal with you accordingly!

and center to the fact that you have no proof in regards to this verse being due to emotions.

True. I was merely speculating... but my literal translation is accurate.

The only hadith which I have found on this subject is clear but you reject is because it doesn’t make sense, which is the most ridiculous response I have ever heard.

You are too ridiculous and stupid to have assumed that I was a shia!

I want to make point summaries so you know what I need answered.
A) You reject hadith which don’t make sense, do you understand how weak of a response that is (in regards to rejecting the sermon of Imam Ali). Secondly does ANY Shia agree with that being a way to determine whether you can reject a hadith or not?

See above you idiot!

Why do most translations translate the verse differently than you?

I don't know. But again, are you saying I'm lying?

C) Do you have any hadith which support your claim that this is being due to emotion (in regards to 282)?

I answered that already.

D) If you don’t, then what gives you the right to state that this verse is due to females’ emotion?

I never said that.. I clearly said I 'think' as in I "speculate".

E) Prove women are more emotional than men and hence cannot be witnesses for anything dealing with future obligations with future obligations (not with murder, or adultery)

Do you want me to prove that women are more emotional than men? Do I need to prove that?

F) Why have I been able to prove everything I state and you have not?

Let me see.. you used a faulty translation and a Shia Hadith... coming from previous Sunni background the prophet says in Sunni Hadith that people will lie about him... in fact, Bukhari in his book said that he started with 600,000 hadiths and narrowed them down to about 7000... later Sunni scholars wanted to clean up Bukhari's work but they were attacked by other Sunnis.

G) Even in regards to a definition I quote you my source for the definition you just state that I was wrong and you went on your way

So Deists, who believe in no religion, are atheists? Yes... your definition is wrong.

**baradar_jackson** · December 16, 2009

Do those verses and haddiths breed sexism and empower misogynists? Yes they do. Were they intended to do so? No they were not. The whole aspect of interpretation is critical but is undermined by the reality of female oppression in countries where these haddiths are used to justify the insecurities of men.
We can debate here all day long but let me guarantee you one thing: we will not agree or have anything remotely resembling constructive dialogue because that is not the reason you are here and it isn't the reason most shiachatters are going to post on this thread. You are an "atheist for a reason" and this thread is simply a way to disguise those reasons as questions poised to a bunch of Muslim men who don't know very much to begin with (owning a man on shiachat isnt a gotcha moment to be proud of) and who will respond with the same lack of desire to learn anything.
You want to spew talking points and copy paste haddiths? Fine. But please, for the sake of all that is holy :!!!: , don't pretend you are genuinely interested in anything else.

Nice to know that we have fans...

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 16, 2009

Here is what you Said:

... if you insist on using this language with me, I'll have to deal with you accordingly!

You are too ridiculous and stupid to have assumed that I was a shia!

See above you idiot!

Response: I now see that it is a waste of time to even engage in dialogue with you...I will deal with others who have more respect and manners. I never threatened you, or attacked you personally, I may have called your arguments weak or comical, but to personally attack you and threaten you? That I never did, but you did, which shows me that I need to find someone else to discuss with.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Atheist_for_a_reason

individualist · December 16, 2009

that's a good way to avoid discussion with me... but it was you who started the insults (you repeated more than once that my arguments were ridiculous and your tone was extremely presumptuous all over).

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 16, 2009

that's a good way to avoid discussion with me... but it was you who started the insults (you repeated more than once that my arguments were ridiculous and your tone was extremely presumptuous all over).

Calling an ARGUMENT ridiculous can NOT be compared to a threat, and a personal attack...sorry but it cannot.

Speaking of discussion, which hadith do you accept?

individualist · December 16, 2009

Speaking of discussion, which hadith do you accept?

That's a tough question and needs an elaborate answer... but according to Sunnis there are three types of Hadith (even in Bukhari's Hadith),

1- Mutawater 2- Mashhour 3- Ahad... unfortunately, the vast majority of Hadith is of the third type: "Ahad".

But anyway, I saw many Hadiths contradicting the Quran 100% and contradicting other Hadiths... this makes me reject the authority of Bukhari et al... clearly the man is so amazingly stupid. Let me explain with an example:

SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 1, Book 10, Number 539:

Narrated Abdullah:

"One night Allah's Apostle led us in the 'Isha' prayer and that is the one called Al-'Atma by the people. After the completion of the prayer, he faced us and said, "Do you know the importance of this night? Nobody present on the surface of the earth to-night will be living after one hundred years from this night." (See Hadith No. 575).

This is a FULL BLOWN contradiction to this perfectly clear verse:

7:187

They ask you about the HOUR, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is ONLY with my Lord; NONE but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a SUDDEN. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is ONLY with God, but most people do not know.

See also 79:42-45

Now, our "great" scholar Bukhari must have been aware of these verses, so why in the world did he include this OBVIOUS trash in his beloved collection of Hadiths? Because he simply, like a stupid Robot, followed his devised method of checking the historical credibility of the chain of narration without caring AT ALL about the contents! What the hell is this? All I'm asking stupid Muslims to do is to grab the Hadith Books and heavily edit them (by throwing away all Hadith that contradicts Quran either explicitly or implicitly... the explicit part is easy and obvious, the implicit part is a bit tricky and depends on the editor-- besides, historically many Sunni scholars wanted t oclean up Bukhari but were attacked).

Anyway, as things currently are I mainly use Hadith to know how to perform rituals, I could be performing the wrong rituals but I have no other option... in any case, the soul and heart of the religion is in Quran.

Edited December 16, 2009 by individualist

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 16, 2009

Greetings,

Well thank you for your very honest response, not many people would state what you just stated.

Anyways I have to go to sleep now, take care

Mohammed-W · December 16, 2009

Greetings all,
Before I get into my main points I first want to state that my intention is not to offend or attack anyone, but to seek knowledge and understanding. If you believe I have a different agenda than I hope you can prove it, because I know where my heart is.
Muslims always speak about how the status of women has been raised in Islam and many of the points that they do raise I actually agree with, on the other hand there are many circumstances which put severe doubt in my mind whether women’s status has even changed much by Islam.
One example which jumps into mind has to be Chapter two verses 282 which read:
... Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her (Yusuf Ali)
...let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other (Shakir)
Now that for me is a problem; for a few reasons which I believe are quite obvious. What shocked me more is what Imam Ali (for respect to all the Shia I will call all the Imams and Prophets by their titles) said about women (ironically enough he even makes a comment about this very verse)
SERMON 80
After the Battle of Jamal (1) Concerning Women and Their Short comings.
O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils.
‘’Nahj-ul-balaghah Sermon 80, from the section of his sermon, letters, and sayings’’
Now my question to all the Muslims is why is this so?
Lady Fatima I bet you is ten times better than most men out there who claim to be Muslims yet due to nature and her creation she is deficient?
Now maybe the translator was ignorant about the word he translated as deficient and it meant something else, or quite possible this is a weak sermon in regards to it being not authentic.
I hope this can be clarified, because one of the main reasons I stopped being and believing is due to this area of Islam (the respect towards women).
The commentator of this sermon actually points out what the Imam is referring to, since I am asking about only one I verse I will only cite that one area of the commentary:
‘’The second weakness is that their natural propensities do not admit of full performance of their intelligence. Therefore nature has given them the power of intelligence only in accordance with the scope of their activities which can guide them in pregnancy delivery child nursing child care and house-hold affairs. On the basis of this weakness of mind and intelligence their evidence has not been accorded the status of man's evidence as Allah says:
. . . then call to witness two witnesses from among your men and’’
The commentary can be found right under the sermon, and here is where I got all my references from:
http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/

(bismillah)

ok first of all sexism etc is a practise of people and people alone are responsible. if the religion was not there the same people would act the same way.... maybe you fail to see that.

if i were to answer your question as i understand it i would say that

women have 2 Xchromosones

men have 1Y+1X

my conclusion women are completely women, and men are half fem and half male (meaning their perspective ecompasses womans)

Actually us men do understand women but we take that fem side (X) and we nurture a women or break her down accordingly, religion has nothing to do with it.

perhaps if you had the extra Y chromosone you would have a different perpective but you cannot leave your perspective since you are absoloutely X thats where we come in we inform or misinform accordingly. (if you worship Allah sincerly we have no effect)

If you want to be protected You worship Allah who will aid you against everything and help you to understand through belief in HIS Goodness.

Learn to seperate men and women from Allah SWT.

individualist · December 16, 2009

@ atheist_for_a_reason

I opened a new thread in the atheism section, titled: "Quran and Science?". If you want we can discuss related issues there.

regards.

ShiaSoldier@2007 · December 16, 2009

Greetings,
I would get into the definition with you about what an Atheist means, and whether Islam is indeed compatible with evolution (which I am willing to bet is not) but we can create a new topic for that.
You State: Like I said... I am an ex-Sunni. I use Hadith only when I think it makes sense.
Response: I hope you understand how weak of a response that is? You cannot just cherry pick hadiths. I highly recommend you learn more about Hadiths and how to tell whether a hadith is Sahih on the premise of the chain of narration not on whether it makes sense or not which with all due respect has to be the most absurd claim I have ever heard.
In summary you quite possibly are the only Shia Muslim who picks hadith on the premise of whether or not it makes sense...
You State: Now 2:282 does say "lest one of them get lost (on details) so the other REMINDS her"... that's the literal translation of the verse... the verse assumes women are more susceptible to be forgetful (of details).
Now, why does the Quran assume that women are more susceptible to be forgetful, I had to assume that it is due to their emotional nature... women are more likely to be moved by their emotions than men are...
Response: I hope you understand that all the major and most popular translators disagree with you, but I am sure you already know that.
Now there is the second problem, you assume and come to your own conclusion on this topic, is there any hadith (which according to your own and minority logic makes sense?) which agrees with you?
Well from what we know there is a hadith on this part but you reject it, and why do you reject it? Due to the fact that it does not make any sense to you... I hope you understand the problem with your replies.
You State: People generally are biased by their emotions... sometimes your brain supresses information according to your biases (or to protect you from traumatic episodes). So when witnessing a contract, an emotion-filled person can be easily biased and as such their brains might suppress information in accordance with their biases.... In short, I personally think that the two female witnesses requirement is set because the issue is women are easily moved by their emotions... HOWEVER the verse does not explain why... it merely mentions the tendency of females to miss bits of information (thus they might need to be reminded).
Response: let us forget the fact that you have nothing to support your claims about the brain suppressing information according to your biases (which rationally speaking is quite comical) and let us forget all of your other quite baseless and ridiculous claims and center to the fact that you have no proof in regards to this verse being due to emotions. The only hadith which I have found on this subject is clear but you reject is because it doesn’t make sense, which is the most ridiculous response I have ever heard.
I want to make point summaries so you know what I need answered.
A) You reject hadith which don’t make sense, do you understand how weak of a response that is (in regards to rejecting the sermon of Imam Ali). Secondly does ANY Shia agree with that being a way to determine whether you can reject a hadith or not?
B) Why do most translations translate the verse differently than you?
C) Do you have any hadith which support your claim that this is being due to emotion (in regards to 282)?
D) If you don’t, then what gives you the right to state that this verse is due to females’ emotion?
E) Prove women are more emotional than men and hence cannot be witnesses for anything dealing with future obligations with future obligations (not with murder, or adultery)
F) Why have I been able to prove everything I state and you have not?
G) Even in regards to a definition I quote you my source for the definition you just state that I was wrong and you went on your way

(bismillah) (salam)

My theory to evolution islamically is........

When Allah (subhanatala) punished people, he turned them into animals, which is why their bone structures are very close to ours. I am a 14 year old late for school cause he woke up at 7:00 instead of 6:30, not the greatest source but yeah.

ShiaSoldier@2007 · December 16, 2009

Greetings,
I would get into the definition with you about what an Atheist means, and whether Islam is indeed compatible with evolution (which I am willing to bet is not) but we can create a new topic for that.
You State: Like I said... I am an ex-Sunni. I use Hadith only when I think it makes sense.
Response: I hope you understand how weak of a response that is? You cannot just cherry pick hadiths. I highly recommend you learn more about Hadiths and how to tell whether a hadith is Sahih on the premise of the chain of narration not on whether it makes sense or not which with all due respect has to be the most absurd claim I have ever heard.
In summary you quite possibly are the only Shia Muslim who picks hadith on the premise of whether or not it makes sense...
You State: Now 2:282 does say "lest one of them get lost (on details) so the other REMINDS her"... that's the literal translation of the verse... the verse assumes women are more susceptible to be forgetful (of details).
Now, why does the Quran assume that women are more susceptible to be forgetful, I had to assume that it is due to their emotional nature... women are more likely to be moved by their emotions than men are...
Response: I hope you understand that all the major and most popular translators disagree with you, but I am sure you already know that.
Now there is the second problem, you assume and come to your own conclusion on this topic, is there any hadith (which according to your own and minority logic makes sense?) which agrees with you?
Well from what we know there is a hadith on this part but you reject it, and why do you reject it? Due to the fact that it does not make any sense to you... I hope you understand the problem with your replies.
You State: People generally are biased by their emotions... sometimes your brain supresses information according to your biases (or to protect you from traumatic episodes). So when witnessing a contract, an emotion-filled person can be easily biased and as such their brains might suppress information in accordance with their biases.... In short, I personally think that the two female witnesses requirement is set because the issue is women are easily moved by their emotions... HOWEVER the verse does not explain why... it merely mentions the tendency of females to miss bits of information (thus they might need to be reminded).
Response: let us forget the fact that you have nothing to support your claims about the brain suppressing information according to your biases (which rationally speaking is quite comical) and let us forget all of your other quite baseless and ridiculous claims and center to the fact that you have no proof in regards to this verse being due to emotions. The only hadith which I have found on this subject is clear but you reject is because it doesn’t make sense, which is the most ridiculous response I have ever heard.
I want to make point summaries so you know what I need answered.
A) You reject hadith which don’t make sense, do you understand how weak of a response that is (in regards to rejecting the sermon of Imam Ali). Secondly does ANY Shia agree with that being a way to determine whether you can reject a hadith or not?
B) Why do most translations translate the verse differently than you?
C) Do you have any hadith which support your claim that this is being due to emotion (in regards to 282)?
D) If you don’t, then what gives you the right to state that this verse is due to females’ emotion?
E) Prove women are more emotional than men and hence cannot be witnesses for anything dealing with future obligations with future obligations (not with murder, or adultery)
F) Why have I been able to prove everything I state and you have not?
G) Even in regards to a definition I quote you my source for the definition you just state that I was wrong and you went on your way

(bismillah) (salam)

My theory to evolution islamically is........

When Allah (subhanatala) punished people, he turned them into animals, which is why their bone structures are very close to ours. I am a 14 year old late for school cause he woke up at 7:00 instead of 6:30, not the greatest source but yeah.

BintAlHoda · December 16, 2009

Before I get into my main points I first want to state that my intention is not to offend or attack anyone, but to seek knowledge and understanding. If you believe I have a different agenda than I hope you can prove it, because I know where my heart is.

In that case, what are seeking knowledge or understanding of? Can you be more explicit regarding your question?

You have presented an argument, but you have not indicated what you are seeking to accomplish through it.

individualist · December 16, 2009

@ atheist

here's the link for further discussion (if you're interested)

Awakened · December 16, 2009

First of of all, forgetting faster in general, does not make them worse. Also, this may not be the norm of women, but just that their is significant amount of women whom tend to forget time to time. The Shariah can be acomodate those women and make sure there is this frequent error (that is not the norm of women, but again, that their is significant amount that forget fast. It also maybe the the norm. I'm just telling you possibilities.

Also, another thing is that women didn't write, do poetry, didn't work, trade, etc, and hence they didn't use their mind as much as men. And so this can have to do with the circumstances of society as well.

This can also be true, that men were given a higher role in that society, they work, the intellectual debates are done by them, etc... but these things can change in time... for example, it maybe that the condition of men being superior in seeking Risq is no tonger true when the norm of women is to work. Also the daraja in the intellectual sense can also change, and it seems it has changed to a great degree but it can also be based on some unchanging factors. Also realize that it never said because "all of men are higher then all of women" or made on top/more superior, it says by which he made some of them over others, and this can refer to the demography, that in general, men were more intellectual, more wise, etc, then women.. because women never sought wisdom, intellectuallness, at this point. The other possibility is that it's continous but the "bathaan" ala 'bathaan" (some over some) may hint to what I have said, but it may also be that demography wise, it will remain so, but it's not that every men is superior in that sense to every women. As the generality was so, so men were made a "step'" higher. And also, it may that somehow or antoher, the condition will stay.

Even the norm of walking out, etc, can also be depending on factors or can it be on unchanging factors. What shows that this might change is hadiths that talk about the time of Imam Zaman (as), how women will travel with no Mahram.

I hope I have answered some of your concerns.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Awakened

Johnny_Appleseed · December 16, 2009

According to today’s Muslim scholars and leaders, women are not fit to rule or hold any office of significance because God has indicated that they are deficient when compared to men. The Muslim scholars will tell you that in the Quran God has made the testimony of ONE man equal to that of TWO women because women are forgetful and emotionally driven.

Any sane and rational person who has worked or studied with women will know that they can be just as smart, if not smarter, than most of their male counterparts. At the same time, I have yet to find this fictional woman who forgets or whose memory is weaker than a man’s (we all wish this was the case sometimes). In fact I can safely attest that over 75% of the A-students I have known, wether in my school years, or college years were females.

Let us examine the verse where all these unequal and sexist conclusions have been drawn:

{Oh you who believe, if you borrow until a delayed period then you will write it amongst you, and let he who is an official record keeper write between you, and let him not refuse to write as God has commanded it. And when he writes, let he who has borrowed give the details of the transaction and he shall fear his Lord God and not omit anything. If the one who has borrowed is not fit, or if he is weak, or if he can’t complete the information; then let he who is responsible for him fill-in on his behalf. And you shall have TWO witnesses from your men, and if they are not two men then let them be ONE man and TWO women from those whose testimony you accept, so if one of them is mis-guided <Tudhil>, then one will remind the other….."} (2/282)

The word used in 2:282 which has caused the misunderstanding of the witnessing requirement is 'Tudhil'.

-The hypocrite Rashad Khalifa translated this as: 'biased'.

-Yusif Ali used: 'errs'.

There are also a few translations which used: 'forgets'.

The word for 'forgets' in Arabic is 'Tansa/Nasi'...Thus we can rule out this possibility from the start.

'Dhal' is used in opposition to 'Huda' (guidance)...Thus its prime translation could be 'Misguided'.

as in : {You guide (Tahdi )whom you will, and you misguide (Tidhil) whom you will}.

Its derivative is also used in Sura # 1, Al-Fatiha (Al-Dhaleen) - Those who are misguided.

Another diravitave is 'Dhilal/Dhil' which means 'Shade' (area without complete light).

The word also has other meanings, if you do some research: Shaded / Marginalized / Incapacitated.

Thus, looking at 2:282 we can say:

{If you cannot find (two men) then one man and two women FROM WHO'S TESTIMONY IS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU. If one of them is 'Tudhil', then one will remind the other...} (2:282)

Please note that the issue of 'honesty/Biastness' is not at question since the choice of witnesses has to be of people who are already acceptable or honest in the first place. Hence, Rashad Khalifa's interpretation as "unbiased" is false.

I also said that 'Forgetfullnes' is not a possible translation.

Tudhil = Becomes Misguided / Lost / Shaded / Marginalized / Incapacitated

A clearer undertsanding of 2:282 taes place when we analyze the steps involved:

1. If there is a finacial transaction involving debt between two or more parties and whose repayment will be at a later stage, then it must be documented.

2. The documentation of such a transaction is to be done through an official record keeper or institution.

3. The one who has borrowed the debt will be the one giving the record keeper the details of the transaction as he/she will put his signature or print on the document.

4. If the one who has borrowed is unable, for any reason from giving information, then his/her guardian shall take such responsibility.

5. Two- three (2 OR 3) witnesses are required to seal the transaction. Note that the witnesses are required AT THE TIME THE TRANSACTION TAKES PLACE, NOT AT THE TIME OF THE TESTIMONY!!!

Please understand this: We must not confuse the witnesses AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION ITSELF , with these (same) witnesses being CALLED TO TESTIFY LATER ON, SHOULD THAT BE NECESSARY.

6. It is preferable that the two witnesses (at the time of transaction) be males, but if that is not possible then one man and two women will suffice.

7. At the time of testimony (should that be needed at a later date) ONLY TWO witnesses are required, if one of the women is incapacitated then the other must take her place.

The question we should all ask ourselves is "What would cause one of the women to be incapacitated from making her testimony?".

The answer is obvious: the key difference between men and women is their physiology. Women give birth and men don’t, women must rest for a lengthy period after child birth while men don’t, women as mothers must suckle their children while men don't, women have menstrual cycles which incapacitate there movement somewhat while men don’t. These differences exist as a matter of physical fact and have nothing to do with intellegence or will.

It is obvious from the Quran that God calls on TWO witnesses to be present (this is clear from the sequence of words in the verse). God being the knower and creator of all things knows that having one man and one women as a witness is not practical since on the day they are called the women may be incapacitated while the man probably won't. And since God calls on TWO witnesses, then the chances of having both present becomes much higher when TWO women and ONE man are selected so at the time of calling to witness, there are three people, among whom any 2 can be chosen from (please note that had God meant that the testimony of ONE man equals TWO women then He would have continued the verse and said: If TWO women and One man are not available then you shall select FOUR women).

This precious Quran speaks of nothing but fairness and equality for both men and women, yet it is the evil wishes of those who have corrupted the religion to turn It into a book that serves their own purposes and desires. You know who these people are, don;t you, Atheist-for-a-Reason ?

Also, the Sunnis and Shias, who have abondoned God's book in favor of Satanic HAdiths, have taken the case of 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses to be a general case, and used it to reach the fallacious conclusion that men are mentally more intelligent than women!!

Please note: Other than 'future financial transactions' listed in 2:282, the testimony of 1 woman = 1 man as can be seen:

1) In the matter of testimony for adultery, (zina) 1 male witness = 1 female witness. NO DIFERENCE THERE!!

{And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-} (Verse 24:4)

2) In-fact, there is even one instance where the testimony of a woman OVERRIDES that of a man!:

{And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By God, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of God on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.}(Verses 24:6-9)

___________________

Dear Atheist, I invite you to start "WOmen in Islam" part 2. Start as many parts as you want, and I will prove to you that everything that is disgusting, repulsive, chauvanist, barbaric, inhuman, backward, unscientific, and illogical, about what YOU percieve to be Islam, comes FROM HADITHS., the man-made traditions that the Sunnis and Shias have built their "religion" upon.

HADITHS ARE THE SCOURGE OF ISLAM. The yare the cause of Muslims division, misery, and deplorable state. God has turned His back on them because they have abandoned His book.

As for evolution, the Quran supports it 1000%. I can prove it, but that's for another topic.

Peace...

Edited December 16, 2009 by Johnny_Appleseed

individualist · December 17, 2009

@ Johny

I agree with you that Hadith has very little importance compared to Quran, and that unfortunately, Muslims largely abandoned their Quran and ran after Hadith, but this does not necessarily mean that ALL hadiths are lies... true there are numerous many errors, glaring contradictions with Quran, utter monstrosities, etc, but you have to admit that we still need Hadith at least to know how to perform our rituals...

I really hope you're not a Quran only Muslim... Quran only Muslims tend to have very weird ideas... I shall be anticipating your responses to atheist-for-a-reason...

Anyway, here's a funny Hadith from Muslim's Book saying that the prophet said not to write Hadith!

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=5326&doc=1

(I'm assuming you can read Arabic, since I understand from your profile you're Lebanese, if not I can look it up in English).

I have loads and loads of trash from Bukhari and Muslim books... And I'm proving their falsehood using the Quran, but unfortunately, my Sunni friends insist on following these books as if they were Quran!

Anyway, I don't call for throwing away Hadith... I merely ask that it should be edited.

Edited December 17, 2009 by individualist

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 17, 2009

TWO RESPONSES ARE HERE FOR BOTH JOHNNY AND AWAKENDED

Greetings Awakened,

You Said: First of all, forgetting faster in general, does not make them worse. Also, this may not be the norm of women, but just that their is significant amount of women whom tend to forget time to time.

My Response: There is NO proof whatsoever that a woman forgets faster than a men, no proof. Where do you get this idea that a significant amount of women who tend to forget from time to time more than males? I have yet to see any documented proof of such a statement. So your entire statement is based on nothing but just your views which are not supported at all. If you feel I am being rude well I am sorry but do you really believe that women tend to forget more than men and hence need a supporter to back them up in case one of them errs?

You State: Also, another thing is that women didn't write, do poetry, didn't work, trade, etc, and hence they didn't use their mind as much as men. And so this can have to do with the circumstances of society as well.

This can also be true, that men were given a higher role in that society, they work, the intellectual debates are done by them, etc... but these things can change in time... for example, it maybe that the condition of men being superior in seeking Risq is no tonger true when the norm of women is to work. Also the daraja in the intellectual sense can also change, and it seems it has changed to a great degree but it can also be based on some unchanging factors. Also realize that it never said because "all of men are higher then all of women" or made on top/more superior, it says by which he made some of them over others, and this can refer to the demography, that in general, men were more intellectual, more wise, etc, then women.. because women never sought wisdom, intellectuallness, at this point. The other possibility is that it's continous but the "bathaan" ala 'bathaan" (some over some) may hint to what I have said, but it may also be that demography wise, it will remain so, but it's not that every men is superior in that sense to every women. As the generality was so, so men were made a "step'" higher. And also, it may that somehow or antoher, the condition will stay.

My Reply: Here is the problem with your statement: the laws of the Quran are supposed to be universal (certain laws in regards to wars and fights may have contexts surrounding them of course) so by you stating that men were given a higher role in THAT society etc you put yourself in a hole because the Quran has no answer to the 21st century if what you are saying is true and secondly this means that the Quran is not a universal book hence verse 282 stating that there needs to be a second women in case one of them err due to the context of the 7th cent.

Greetings Johnny

Before we examine your points, scholars and hadiths mean nothing to you? Well that is good to know, all hadiths and scholars mean nothing to you and do not understand what this verse is saying but you do...well okay...so the only way it seems for you to abandon the majority view is by discarding them...interesting but not shocking, it seems that the only way Muslims can get out of a predicament is by quickly denouncing hadiths and scholars. But never mind, your points which you have derived by yourself is weak and contradictory; which puts you in the same fold of the scholars who you throw away.

You State: According to today’s Muslim scholars and leaders, women are not fit to rule or hold any office of significance because God has indicated that they are deficient when compared to men. The Muslim scholars will tell you that in the Quran God has made the testimony of ONE man equal to that of TWO women because women are forgetful and emotionally driven.

My reply: And these Muslims scholars and leaders unfortunately derive this false notion and belief from the Quran and hadith. Once again women and not more forgetful then men and unable to be witnesses, where do these ‘’scholars’’ derive this belief from? Well they derive them from the Quran and Hadith.

You State: Any sane and rational person who has worked or studied with women will know that they can be just as smart, if not smarter, than most of their male counterparts. At the same time, I have yet to find this fictional woman who forgets or whose memory is weaker than a man’s (we all wish this was the case sometimes). In fact I can safely attest that over 75% of the A-students I have known, wether in my school years, or college years were females.

My Reply: Yes I agree one hundred percent with most of what you have said.

You State: Let us examine the verse where all these unequal and sexist conclusions have been drawn:

{Oh you who believe, if you borrow until a delayed period then you will write it amongst you, and let he who is an official record keeper write between you, and let him not refuse to write as God has commanded it. And when he writes, let he who has borrowed give the details of the transaction and he shall fear his Lord God and not omit anything. If the one who has borrowed is not fit, or if he is weak, or if he can’t complete the information; then let he who is responsible for him fill-in on his behalf. And you shall have TWO witnesses from your men, and if they are not two men then let them be ONE man and TWO women from those whose testimony you accept, so if one of them is mis-guided <Tudhil>, then one will remind the other….."} (2/282)

My Reply: Are you even a Muslim? I do not want to be rude but I have yet met a Muslim who admits that this verse promotes as you state’’ unequal and sexist conclusions.’’ Unless you are referring that this translation (which I am assuming you will state is wrong) leads us to believe such a thing but a better translation will show us the true meaning, which I assume you mean.

You State: The word used in 2:282 which has caused the misunderstanding of the witnessing requirement is 'Tudhil'.

-The hypocrite Rashad Khalifa translated this as: 'biased'.

-Yusif Ali used: 'errs'.

There are also a few translations which used: 'forgets'.

My Reply: Here is how YOU have translated it: Tudhil = Becomes Misguided / Lost / Shaded / Marginalized / Incapacitated

How is that any better than err? So in case one of them is misguided, lost, or shaded or marginalized, and/or incapacitated than the second women should remind her.

Though my problem is not with that is it with the apparent contradictions of your statements.

Here is a translation which you approve of or at least use:

‘’Thus, looking at 2:282 we can say:

{If you cannot find (two men) then one man and two women FROM WHO'S TESTIMONY IS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU. If one of them is 'Tudhil', then one will remind the other...} (2:282)’’

My reply: So according to you if one of them (now the key this is ONLY referring to women, no such possibility is used for a man which is the big problem) is misguided, lost, shaded, marginalized, or incapacitated then the other should remind her.

Now here is the problem you state:

‘’The question we should all ask ourselves is "What would cause one of the women to be incapacitated from making her testimony?".

The answer is obvious: the key difference between men and women is their physiology. Women give birth and men don’t, women must rest for a lengthy period after child birth while men don’t, women as mothers must suckle their children while men don't, women have menstrual cycles which incapacitate there movement somewhat while men don’t. These differences exist as a matter of physical fact and have nothing to do with intellegence or will.’’

My response: So your conclusion is the reason why women may be incapicitated from making her testimony is because of the physiology, but let us look at the translation YOU USED:

... If one of them is 'Tudhil', then one will remind the other...} (2:282)’’

My Question to you Johnny is remind her of WHAT? If you say well to fulfill her obligations then your answer which you claim is obvious becomes void because you state:

It is obvious from the Quran that God calls on TWO witnesses to be present. God being the knower and creator of all things knows that having one man and one women as a witness is not practical since on the day they are called the women may be incapacitated while the man probably won't. And since God calls on TWO witnesses, then the chances of having both present becomes much higher when TWO women and ONE man are selected so at the time of calling to witness, there are three people, among whom any 2 can be chosen from (You also say)... 7. At the time of testimony (should that be needed at a later date) ONLY TWO witnesses are required, if one of the women is incapacitated then the other must take her place.

So the reason why two women are needed because that increases the probability of them both being present or one may take the others place, then why does the verse even need to mention a reminder in the later part after the word tudhil is used? I hope you do not say that the reason why a reminder is mentioned is because one may forgot to even show up. Because if you say that then it is not a matter of physiology but a matter of the brain and the women forgetting (which is NOT even made a possibility to a man) which you have tried to prove is not the case.

So you in conclusion have thrown away scholars, thrown away hadiths, but that doesn’t even help you. Your OWN conclusions based on your OWN interpretation (and to be honest I haven’t even checked the Arabic so I am taking your words at face value) contradict each other. Your translation of Tudhil does not make anything better which I have already mentioned.

hadez803 · December 17, 2009

Women in Islam Part One Women in Shia Islam
Greetings all,
Before I get into my main points I first want to state that my intention is not to offend or attack anyone, but to seek knowledge and understanding. If you believe I have a different agenda than I hope you can prove it, because I know where my heart is.
Muslims always speak about how the status of women has been raised in Islam and many of the points that they do raise I actually agree with, on the other hand there are many circumstances which put severe doubt in my mind whether women's status has even changed much by Islam.
One example which jumps into mind has to be Chapter two verses 282 which read:
... Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her (Yusuf Ali)
...let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other (Shakir)
Now that for me is a problem; for a few reasons which I believe are quite obvious. What shocked me more is what Imam Ali (for respect to all the Shia I will call all the Imams and Prophets by their titles) said about women (ironically enough he even makes a comment about this very verse)
SERMON 80
After the Battle of Jamal (1) Concerning Women and Their Short comings.
O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils.
''Nahj-ul-balaghah Sermon 80, from the section of his sermon, letters, and sayings''
Now my question to all the Muslims is why is this so?
Lady Fatima I bet you is ten times better than most men out there who claim to be Muslims yet due to nature and her creation she is deficient?
Now maybe the translator was ignorant about the word he translated as deficient and it meant something else, or quite possible this is a weak sermon in regards to it being not authentic.
I hope this can be clarified, because one of the main reasons I stopped being and believing is due to this area of Islam (the respect towards women).
The commentator of this sermon actually points out what the Imam is referring to, since I am asking about only one I verse I will only cite that one area of the commentary:
''The second weakness is that their natural propensities do not admit of full performance of their intelligence. Therefore nature has given them the power of intelligence only in accordance with the scope of their activities which can guide them in pregnancy delivery child nursing child care and house-hold affairs. On the basis of this weakness of mind and intelligence their evidence has not been accorded the status of man's evidence as Allah says:
. . . then call to witness two witnesses from among your men and''
The commentary can be found right under the sermon, and here is where I got all my references from:
http://www.maaref-fo...on.com/english/

On average Men and women have many differences from each other. Some of these are advantages/disadvantages for men and others for women. These differences can be physical (e.g. body weight and strength, disease, physiologically, anatomically), mental (e.g. emotions, different skills, mental health) and even social (e.g. Jobs women/men are attracted to or distracted from). So for example It is natural that the average man is emotionally DEFICIENT compared to a woman, LACKS the vocal and language skills that a woman possesses and is more likely to die from a heart attack. On the other hand women usually are weaker than men, are more likely to have Alzheimer's and more likely to become depressed or commit suicide. It is also natural that a 3 year old girl will create an emotional bond with her doll but if the same doll is given to a 3 year old boy he'll end up pulling it's head off :P (funny but true).

With these in mind only a complete FOOL can claim that men and women are equal and have no differences. This is turn implies that the rights of men and women and laws regarding them must not be equal and are different from each other. So if there are different rules for women and men in Islam (although these are not many) it is because of the differences between men and women.

The surprising fact about nearly all the people that bring up subjects about women being treated differently in Islam is that they never see the fact that men and women are coherently different from each other. What is even more surprising is the fact that they always mention the rules that seem to be disadvantages for women and never mention the rules that are to the advantage of women and disadvantageous for men. Things like the fact that men have to go to war and not women...

Before continuing I have to make two things clear:

1-According to a few narrations, The word "tudhil" in the verse means "forgetting". This can also be verified by the fact that this word can also mean forgetting in the Arabic language (ref. Lisan al-Arab, root of "Dhalla").

2-In the hadith from nahjulbalagha the word "intelligence" has been used. Unfortunately this is a mistake from the translator. The word used in the Arabic text is "UQOOL" which is plural of AQL. This is something different from intelligence. "Aql" is the ability to discriminate between what is right and what is wrong. Your aql tells you stealing is bad, tyranny is bad, helping others is good, honesty is good. A completely intelligent person might lack aql and see no good in helping others or being honest. It is clear that a an Aql which can be influenced by emotions will have deficiencies compared to that which doesn't.

You have claimed that you stopped believing in Islam because of this disrespect towards women. Your reasoning has three major flaws:

a- No one becomes a Muslim by examinig all of Islams laws and orders to the last bit. There are many laws that we don't have a single clue about why they are as they are: e.g : Why do we fast? Why a month? Why from sunset to sunrise? Why do some actions make it void?...

We become Muslims by examinig the major things in Islam the most important one being the concept of God and its attributes. Once that is established we put our trust in God and accept the laws and orders he gives. Most of these laws and orders we clearly find correct and for others we don't know the real reason for them being put in place. Some of the laws we also see as questionable. If our questions regarding these matters are answered we become happier and more firm in our beliefs but if they are not we don't reject Islam because of some small detail we didn't fully understand.

b-a-What if women really have the attribute mentioned in the verse? We trust Allah and trust the verse. Who do you trust? Darwin & modern science. Has modern science given solid proof that women are or are not like this (considering the many differences men and women have)? Unless you bring some solid prove that women are not like this you can not just come and say: Hey that verse and that narration are bogus and disrespect to women. If you don't have proof then it is only a simple case of:"your word against mine".

c- You rejected Islam because of the disrespect you think it has towards women!!! Is it not a disrespect to women (for example) that they are weaker in terms of physical body power than men. To make it more clear, It is nearly impossible for a woman to prevent a man from raping her or killing her barehandedly because men are naturally more powerful? This is a fact that you can not change. How are you going to cope with this kind of disrespect which has been kindly granted to man by EVOLUTION in nature (as you believe). Are you going to reject Darwin, the evolution theory, nature, atheism? or none. A fact, even if it seems disrespectful at first sight is not enough for you to reject something, Islam included.

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 17, 2009

You have claimed that you stopped believing in Islam because of this disrespect towards women. Your reasoning has three major flaws:

Greetings,

First point, I did not become an Atheist because Islam oppresses women or whatever you want to call it,

Here is what I said, and you can just scroll up to see.

‘’ I became an Atheist after learning about evolution and examining the facts for such a theory. So me being an Atheist has to do with the theory proposed by Darwin...’’

I will deal with your points in another reply separate to this one.

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 17, 2009

You State: On average Men and women have many differences from each other. Some of these are advantages/disadvantages for men and others for women. These differences can be physical (e.g. body weight and strength, disease, physiologically, anatomically), mental (e.g. emotions, different skills, mental health) and even social (e.g. Jobs women/men are attracted to or distracted from). So for example It is natural that the average man is emotionally DEFICIENT compared to a woman, LACKS the vocal and language skills that a woman possesses and is more likely to die from a heart attack. On the other hand women usually are weaker than men, are more likely to have Alzheimer's and more likely to become depressed or commit suicide. It is also natural that a 3 year old girl will create an emotional bond with her doll but if the same doll is given to a 3 year old boy he'll end up pulling it's head off (funny but true).

Before continuing I have to make two things clear:

1-According to a few narrations, The word "tudhil" in the verse means "forgetting". This can also be verified by the fact that this word can also mean forgetting in the Arabic language (ref. Lisan al-Arab, root of "Dhalla").

2-In the hadith from nahjulbalagha the word "intelligence" has been used. Unfortunately this is a mistake from the translator. The word used in the Arabic text is "UQOOL" which is plural of AQL. This is something different from intelligence. "Aql" is the ability to discriminate between what is right and what is wrong. Your aql tells you stealing is bad, tyranny is bad, helping others is good, honesty is good. A completely intelligent person might lack aql and see no good in helping others or being honest. It is clear that a an Aql which can be influenced by emotions will have deficiencies compared to that which doesn't.

My Reply: I agree that men and women have many differences, but one thing I know for a fact, unless of course the most up to date book on psychology which is taught in high schools and college is wrong, women are NOT intellectually deficient than men, but according to Imam Ali they are and what is his evidence? Verse 282 of the Quran; your appeal to the Arabic word being Aql (in the sermon of Imam Ali) is even worse for your argument because according to Usul al Kafi (unless the Isnad in the hadith is weak) Aql is Gods most beloved creature (Kafi, chapter one, hadith number 1 and 2) so now women are deficient in Gods most beloved creature (which is intellect) now this hadith is mentioned in many places so we would have to examine all the others ones as well. So you are just making it even worse for yourself by telling me that the word used is Aql. Anoher thing is the verse says NOTHING about womens emotion it says NOTHING, (or does it?).

Awakened · December 17, 2009

None of us can give you definite answers as to why. We can only speculate as I did. (I'm not even saying that is my views, i just wanted to give you options).

It may be unrelated to the intellect but simply to the nature of Man's Soul as opposed to women. It may exceed in a certain thing, while women may exceed in other things. But due to what it is, men have a DARAJA. Although I can't put my finger on it, it does feel like somehow the Man should be the head of the house.

MuhammadwuAli · December 17, 2009

Ahhh, how relieving to finally understand we all came from nothing. I am now in anticipation for a beautiful woman and a bowl of grapes to come to me from nothing so i can sit down and enjoy, and also wait for a basket of money to come to me. :)

Awakened · December 17, 2009

Ahhh, how relieving to finally understand we all came from nothing. I am now in anticipation for a beautiful woman and a bowl of grapes to come to me from nothing so i can sit down and enjoy, and also wait for a basket of money to come to me. :)

Most Athiests don't assume the universe came out of nothingness. Some do. But most don't.

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 17, 2009

Ahhh, how relieving to finally understand we all came from nothing. I am now in anticipation for a beautiful woman and a bowl of grapes to come to me from nothing so i can sit down and enjoy, and also wait for a basket of money to come to me. :)

Muhammad,

I want to thank you for your intelligent and factual addition to the topic at hand. You really are an intelligent individual.

MuhammadwuAli · December 17, 2009

Muhammad,
I want to thank you for your intelligent and factual addition to the topic at hand. You really are an intelligent individual.

Your welcome, it's in reply to your foolishness.

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 17, 2009

Would you like to refute my foolish claims if they are so foolish? What is your opinion on the sermon of Imam Ali? Or the verse in general?

MuhammadwuAli · December 17, 2009

Would you like to refute my foolish claims if they are so foolish? What is your opinion on the sermon of Imam Ali? Or the verse in general?

My opinion is, he is a genius. :)

As far as for your foolish claims, good "luck" with that, i have other things to do. Also, i'm still in anticipation for the things i would like.

Atheist_for_a_reason · December 17, 2009

My opinion is, he is a genius. :)
As far as for your foolish claims, good "luck" with that, i have other things to do. Also, i'm still in anticipation for the things i would like.

Good to know you think that he is a genius, that is all we need more men to think that women are intellectually deficient and those who believe that are geniuses

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