Ayatullah Khorasani

[Al-Mufeed]

Bismillah,

Salamun Alaykum

The leading scholar in the city of Qum, Ayatullah Vahid Khorasani who is among the most senior Shia Scholars, addresses statements made by an individual (scholar) telling people to not cry loudly during mourning sessions for Ahlulbayt. In the video he also goes over the Fatwas of previous scholars on the Mourning rituals and he even states that shedding blood for the sake of mourning Ahlulbayt is Halal.

Here is the video, with English subtitles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egpb0wC1vW0

[Aafreen]

Thanks for post al-Mufeed. Would you happen to know which scholar's statements were being addressed in this video, or at least the gist and the basis of statements?

[Al-Mufeed]

There is a specific individual who he is addressing, and it is not Fadhlullah (even though he is addressed in general in the lecture). It is a certain individual who is a well known Marja, whose name I will not mention, because Ayatullah Khorasani didn't mention it and outside of people living in Iran I don't really know of any one who knows of these statements so for the sake of not causing rifts in the Shia community I will not mention the persons name.

Basically this individual told people that people should not cry loudly during the majlis/for Imam Hussain, told them that it was haram to do latam/sina zani/matam with their shirts off and so on. He is a well known marja even among people in the west.

In any case Shaikh Khorasani is also speaking against the movement in the Iranian government that banned many types of Azadari from being allowed to take place in the country.

For example in Iran they are no longer allowed to openly display mock coffins or carry Iranian/Iraqi Alams which look like this:

As for the justifications of such things, they very.

Those that support the banning of these things claim that they are various types of biddas, although in many cases there are scholars that dispute this as well, and there are a plethora of various arguments about why - even if it is a biddah- it is not haram.

In regards to the statement about not crying loudly, I have no idea what the justification is, in fact we have several hadeeths stating the complete apposite. Here is a video in Farsi with Arabic Subtitles with the late Ayatullah Hussain Seeboway (ra) talking about crying for Imam Hussain, hadeeths related to it and how he witnessed great scholars of the past crying very loudly for Imam Hussain. Its a very beautiful/emotional video:

[gogiison2]

WA wr wb..

was this reply to ayat. khamenei? i don't get it. surely, the marja who gave the opposing fatwa may've studied rijal systems as well, or no? i think he should've called scholars out by name so that scholars would be afraid to speak without proper knowledge of issues in the future.

i still didn't see evidence that blood shedding is halaal.

[Al-Mufeed]

WA wr wb..

was this reply to ayat. khamenei? i don't get it. surely, the marja who gave the opposing fatwa may've studied rijal systems as well, or no? i think he should've called scholars out by name so that scholars would be afraid to speak without proper knowledge of issues in the future.

i still didn't see evidence that blood shedding is halaal.

The reason the persons name was not mentioned is that because among ulamah it is comman that when heavily critisizing some one they dont mention that individuals name. In any case this lecture was given in qum, to a group of howza students. The individual in question made his statments openly and publicly in Iran and every one in Iran and specificaly the people in this gathering knew exactly who he was refering to.

If you feel that you are more of an expert in matters of fiqh than Ayatullah khorasani and the other ulamah mentioned and you feel that you are sure that blood shedding is haram, then be ready to defend your position in front of Allah on the day of judgment.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Al-Mufeed

[gogiison2]

The reason the persons name was not mentioned is that because among ulamah it is comman that when heavily critisizing some one they dont mention that individuals name. In any case this lecture was given in qum, to a group of howza students. The individual in question made his statments openly and publicly in Iran and every one in Iran and specificaly the people in this gathering knew exactly who he was refering to.

If you feel that you are more of an expert in matters of fiqh than Ayatullah khorasani and the other ulamah mentioned and you feel that you are sure that blood shedding is haram, then be ready to defend your position in front of Allah on the day of judgment.

well instead of 'heavily' criticizing couldn't it have been made clear with a 'lighter' criticizing?

likewise, i hope you're ready to defend this hiding of names as to not call out scholars on their approach to rulings if Allah asks you. i doubt the person in question will give a reply since his name is still saved and doubts will remain doubts and a difference in ijtehad. this is how the systems work. not only spiritual business but even the mundane business. sometimes when you put pressure on people they're forced to think or they'll lose too much credibility. but this is a good thing so that we study more.

i never said it was haraam, but are you sure that it's halaal or is it just

speculation?

EDIT: is it not already causing a rift just because of different methods applied to the studying of chains?

Edited December 15, 2009 by gogiison2

[Al-Mufeed]

i never said it was haraam, but are you sure that it's halaal or is it just

speculation?

You didnt?

Then why did you say:

i still didn't see evidence that blood shedding is halaal

If its not halal the only other thing that it could be is haram.

In any case, yes I am sure it is halal, if you watch the video which some one has kindly tranlsated for you and others, you will see that he says that the scholars are 100% sure on this matter, and that they have examined the hadeeths and their chains, as well as the primary and secondary issues of fiqh rullings, they have examined the issue of "self harm" and after full investigation have issued the statment that blood shedding is halal.

If you or others do not believe so this is your own buisness, and every one will answer ot Allah on the day of judgment.

[gogiison2]

^ you got all that from me trying to practice precaution? interesting. i think throwing this precaution out the window is what led to the making of such videos.

i have seen the video and he mentions a few scholars that say it's halaal. and you say that these scholars are 100% sure. what about the contrasting views of other scholars? are they not 100% sure of their rulings? do they not study rijal properly? who sets the standard for 'proper' study of rijal?

if you say blood shedding is halaal, what does it do for you and why do you do it? if you don't do it, why not?

Edited December 15, 2009 by gogiison2

[Al-Mufeed]

Only a few scholars?

Every one who has studied fiqh knows that untill the current generation there was only 1 scholar in all of history that said that blood shedding was haram, and that was Mohsin Al-Amin.

In recent times Sayed Khumayni banned it in public, and so has Sayed Khamenie. Fadhlullah says its haram and thats about it.

The rest of the marjas allow it, except for some who follow the explicit doctrine of WF mutlaq and believe they can not issue a rulling that is counter to what the WF states, so they dont issue any statments on this matter.

Also the fatwa that he mentioned was endorsed by a large number of ulamah, he only mentioned some of them, these scholars who endorsed the fatwa of naeini were:

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Mohsen al-Hakim,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Kaadhem al-Shari’atMadari,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abd-el-A’la al-Sabzewary,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abul-Qassim al-Kho’i,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Ridha al-Gulpaygani,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Ali al-Hussaini al-Seestani,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Saadiq al-Rouhani,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Mirza Jawaad al-Tabrizi,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Sheikh Hussain al-Waheed al-Khurasani,

[gogiison2]

and on what basis is it halaal? if it doesn't cause extreme pain or loss of limb, etc. extreme pain, that can said to be a very subjective response. can it not?

EDIT:

what about you naming scholars, are you not causing a rift? what about those scholars who were willing to speak up. maybe the ones who sided with the popular opinion didn't want to cause a 'rift' perhaps?

Edited December 15, 2009 by gogiison2

[Ruh.Mujarad]

- We all respect the view of Ayatollah al-Khorasani (dt), and we carry much love for him, but we also carry love for our other marja's.

- There is no doubt that all our Marja's agree that the mourning ceremonies of 'ashura and Muharram should increase year by year, and that no one should be permitted to weaken them. However, they differ on characterizing the mourning ceremonies. Some consider certain acts to be outside of the mentioned realm, since they never existed at the times of the Imams (as) or early scholars, where others consider them to be part of it.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

I think Ayatullah Sistani (a.r) also allow it therefore i do his taqleed. Am i right? If not then please tell me official site of Ayatullah Khurasani (a.r) so that i do his (a.r) taqleed.

[Vigilare]

If you feel that you are more of an expert in matters of fiqh than Ayatullah khorasani and the other ulamah mentioned and you feel that you are sure that blood shedding is haram, then be ready to defend your position in front of Allah on the day of judgment.

Why would you need to defend that position? Is it something so important? If scholars say it's right does that mean it's right?

[Awakened]

It's Satanic Ilhaam, the blood letting.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Awakened

[Al-Mufeed]

Bismilah Al Rahman Al Raheem

Salamun Alaykum:

and on what basis is it halaal? if it doesn't cause extreme pain or loss of limb, etc. extreme pain, that can said to be a very subjective response. can it not?

EDIT:

what about you naming scholars, are you not causing a rift? what about those scholars who were willing to speak up. maybe the ones who sided with the popular opinion didn't want to cause a 'rift' perhaps

The conditions of bloodletting and its justifications vary among scholars. There are some scholars such as the late Sayed Muhammad Shirazi (ra) who believe that this is an act (specificaly qama zani/tatbir/sword hitting) which can be found in our books, and he justifies his position by ahadeeth that state that zainab did this act (it is in bihar al anwar) and he goes through the justification of this idea in his series on fiqh called Al-Fiqh. There are other scholars who hold this same opinion, if I am not mistaken Ayatullah Sadiq Rohani also holds this same postion. hence that is why you see that they issue ruling that it is not only halal but it is mustahab, in fact sayed rohani in his fatwa stated it is among the most mustahab of acts.

However this is not the majority opinion.

The majority opinion is that there is no sufficiant evidence to declare that such an act is haram. In fiqh there is no need to have daleel to make some thing halal. I will give you an example; the shrines of the Imams. We do not have any thing from the Imams telling us to cover the shrines with gold and silver and gems and to spend large amounts of money hiring artisans and craftsmen to build elaborate architectual desings and so on. In fact if we look strictly at hadeeths we would probably come ot the oppasite conclusion that we should keep the shrines as extremly simple as possible, and one can then argue that the condition that we have them in today is haram, because it is israf. However there is no scholar that has stated that this is haram, despite their seemingly being evidence that it is israf and there is no daleel for it. The scholars have examined the issue of israf and all of the relevant hadeeths related to this subject and they say there is not sufficient evidence to suggest that it is haram, hence they allow it. As Ayatullah Khorasani (may Allah protect him and grant him a long life) stated the scholars have done a full investigation in ot the matter and have concluded that there is not enough evidence to declare it as haram.

I understand your personal concern - you feel that you would rather err in caution, and thats fine. No one has obligated you to perform these acts, as Islam is not a religion of force. However there are brothers (and sisters) who have a deep love for the Ahlulbayt (not saying that you do not) and this is how they chose to express them selves, and their right should be respected, as the majority of great Maraja respect that right. However instead we see many people ridiculing them and humiliating them. Hence this is why I posted this video.

- We all respect the view of Ayatollah al-Khorasani (dt), and we carry much love for him, but we also carry love for our other marja's.

- There is no doubt that all our Marja's agree that the mourning ceremonies of 'ashura and Muharram should increase year by year, and that no one should be permitted to weaken them. However, they differ on characterizing the mourning ceremonies. Some consider certain acts to be outside of the mentioned realm, since they never existed at the times of the Imams or early scholars, where others consider them to be part of it

Salamun Alaykum

Thank you very much for the respectfull reply. You are correct that there are many scholars that dont consider these to be part of the actual shaer. However those scholars who dont consider these to be a part of shaer (such as Sayed Khoie (ra) ) say it is halal, and that if a person is sincere inshaAllah they will get a reward from Allah.

I dont think that Shaikh Khorasani was attacking other peoples views on Shaer, he was attacking a growing trend among some shia to extremly downplay Azadari, the statments of this individual just prompted him to speak.

Why would you need to defend that position? Is it something so important? If scholars say it's right does that mean it's right?

It is an obligation on every shia to follow the shariah to the best of their ability. To the best of my knowledge, unless you can prove to me other wise the source of sharia is our Mara'ja may Allah protect them. If you disagree with some of their rullings then that is fine, you are free to do as you like. If you feel that you have researched an issue to the point where you are 100% certain on your position then you should follow your self.

May Allah bless and protect all of our scholars.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Al-Mufeed

[Orion]

I think Ayatullah Sistani (a.r) also allow it therefore i do his taqleed. Am i right? If not then please tell me official site of Ayatullah Khurasani (a.r) so that i do his (a.r) taqleed.

Taqlid should be based on the knowledge of the Marja.

You should pick the most knowledgeable scholar.

And not base your Taqlid on individual fatwas that you like or dislike.

WS

[kaali_daal]

Asalam Alaikum.

Why can't we simply perform actions that are advised by Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and the rest of the Imams(A.S).

If there is an objection on down playing the role of Azadari, than I have an objection on down playing the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and Imams(A.S).

I mean did Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and/or any Imams(A.S) ever express themselves like this?

I know Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) lost Abu Talib and Bibi Khadija in short intervals. How loudly did he cry? How much blood did he waste?

People these days need to learn to donate that same blood and help victims from Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, and other wars.

Simply ask yourself with a neutral, calm, and mature manner. If Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) or any Imam(A.S) was present, would they perform any of these actions?

We are commemorating the Martyrs who saved Islam, can we create our own method of Azadari or should we use what they shed their blood for?

I am sorry if I sound to undermine the importance of Azadari but not at the expense of what our Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and Imams(A.S) taught us which are priceless and 'divine' values?

I mean when was the last time you heard any Ulema talk about how Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) or any Imam(A.S) spent these days of grief.

Imam Redha (A.S.) said:

"With the advent of the month of Muharram, my father Imam Kadhim (A.S.) would never be seen laughing; gloom and sadness would overcome him for (the first) ten days of the month; and when the tenth day of the month would dawn, it would be a day of tragedy, grief and weeping for him."

Thank You.

Take care.

Allah Hafiz.

Edited December 16, 2009 by kaali_dal

[kaali_daal]

Asalam Alaikum.

Just to clear up one thing. I don't have a problem with Sina zani, beating of the chest to a limit or Nohay.

I just don't understand the purpose of Sina zani when its taken over the limit and any other form of bloody Azadari which is taken over the limit.

Take care.

Allah Hafiz.

[Al-Mufeed]

Wa Alaykum As Salam

Alamah Bahir Al Uloom (ra) reports that he personally saw with his own eyes Imam Mehdi (as) participating in what people considered was "extreme" sinah zani and mourning.

Do not take my word for it hear it from Shaikh Safdar Razi:

[gogiison2]

name='Al-Mufeed' date='15 December 2009 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1260927737' post='1996926']

Bismilah Al Rahman Al Raheem

Salamun Alaykum:

The conditions of bloodletting and its justifications vary among scholars. There are some scholars such as the late Sayed Muhammad Shirazi (ra) who believe that this is an act (specificaly qama zani/tatbir/sword hitting) which can be found in our books, and he justifies his position by ahadeeth that state that zainab did this act (it is in bihar al anwar) and he goes through the justification of this idea in his series on fiqh called Al-Fiqh. There are other scholars who hold this same opinion, if I am not mistaken Ayatullah Sadiq Rohani also holds this same postion. hence that is why you see that they issue ruling that it is not only halal but it is mustahab, in fact sayed rohani in his fatwa stated it is among the most mustahab of acts.

However this is not the majority opinion.

The majority opinion is that there is no sufficiant evidence to declare that such an act is haram. In fiqh there is no need to have daleel to make some thing halal. I will give you an example; the shrines of the Imams. We do not have any thing from the Imams telling us to cover the shrines with gold and silver and gems and to spend large amounts of money hiring artisans and craftsmen to build elaborate architectual desings and so on. In fact if we look strictly at hadeeths we would probably come ot the oppasite conclusion that we should keep the shrines as extremly simple as possible, and one can then argue that the condition that we have them in today is haram, because it is israf. However there is no scholar that has stated that this is haram, despite their seemingly being evidence that it is israf and there is no daleel for it. The scholars have examined the issue of israf and all of the relevant hadeeths related to this subject and they say there is not sufficient evidence to suggest that it is haram, hence they allow it. As Ayatullah Khorasani (may Allah protect him and grant him a long life) stated the scholars have done a full investigation in ot the matter and have concluded that there is not enough evidence to declare it as haram.

I understand your personal concern - you feel that you would rather err in caution, and thats fine. No one has obligated you to perform these acts, as Islam is not a religion of force. However there are brothers (and sisters) who have a deep love for the Ahlulbayt (not saying that you do not) and this is how they chose to express them selves, and their right should be respected, as the majority of great Maraja respect that right. However instead we see many people ridiculing them and humiliating them. Hence this is why I posted this video.

WA wr wb..

how does one relate the incident of bibi Zainab to doing zinjeer? and where is this found in our books? i think i know what you're going to reply but i'll await your answer. and are you saying that the scholar who says that this act is haraam didn't do a 'full' investigation on this matter? and you mention 'deep love' what type of love is this? and i asked if you do it and if not why not? do you know the type of people who usually 'love' in this way and the way they act? anyone can claim 'love' but if you don't follow masoomeen, this isn't 'love.'

[gogiison2]

Wa Alaykum As Salam

Alamah Bahir Al Uloom (ra) reports that he personally saw with his own eyes Imam Mehdi (as) participating in what people considered was "extreme" sinah zani and mourning.

Do not take my word for it hear it from Shaikh Safdar Razi:

WA wr wb..

that's fine if a scholar thinks he saw Imam. but where does he say that he was blood shedding? i know of someone who says he sees our Imams in dreams as well and he says Imam Ali had a large stomache in his old age. and this is his proof for it being okay for being overweight. i told him that even in America where we have one of the most overweight nations if not the most overweight, we still have seniors here that are thin or average weight and you want me to think Imam starting eating a lot when he got older. i don't think so. the same when asked Ya Imam why is it that you live like this and eat like this etc while you're calipha, and it's said that Imam Ali replies with the likes of; how can i be the commander of the faithful if i don't live like the faithful.

EDIT: also, are you trying to tell me that certain Marja weren't aware of this story to consider zinjeer haraam or haraam while in public? did they consider this story with a rijal system or other system of testing his faith or knowledge?

EDIT#2: mashaAllah, and you know what, this reminds me of what i heard from some pakistani. they were saying how ayat. Khomeini used to have visitors and they'd always take off their shoes and one day he had a visitor and the guards didn't see the shoes outside and the guards asked Khomeini why didn't you ask him to take off his shoes your guests always do so, then it's said that Khomeini replied 'do you know who that was'? it's said that he met with Imam al asr.

so all i'm saying is that many may claim to have visited with Imam but like i say Allahu Alim, i'd need more of a proof. because i think you said in a previous posting of yours that Khomeini considered it haraam to do zinjeer in public. or even in the case of his other fatwas, do you think Imam al asr wouldn't admonish him for these opinions if he was wrong? something to ponder over.

Edited December 16, 2009 by gogiison2

[gogiison2]

also shiekh safdar razi mentions about allamah bahir al uloom didn't believe that one can see Imam al asr but then after he allegedly sees Imam, he changes his views about the narrations. please tell me what it is that the allamah read that changed his views?

many of us are aware of the following teaching:

My reappearance will take place after a very long time when people will have grown tired of waiting and those who are weak in there faith will say: What! Is he still alive?

When will men become cruel and inconsiderate, and the world will be full of injustice and violence. Very soon some men will claim to have seen me. Beware! Anyone who makes such a claim before the coming out of Sufyani and the sound from heaven announcing my reappearance, is a liar and impostor.

so please comment on that if you can. jazakAllah for your time. and if you say it's a bad translation. then i'd like to say that more precaution should be taken when dealing with religion.

Edited December 16, 2009 by gogiison2

[Hassassin]

786

Salam wr wb

It brings a great sadness to my heart to see we are still squabbling over such trivial issues. But of course, what are the Shi'a known for besides their extravagant practices and rumor spreading which is so cleverly disguised as 'jurisprudence'. No wonder our Imam(as) is still in occultation! We so-called 'shia' have allowed the turbaned mafia to set us back to a state even worse than Jahilliyah!

Remember what Imam Ali(as) said, "Look at what is being said, not the person who is saying it."

Just because a Sheikh, Mowlana, Ayatollah, or ANYONE says ANYTHING... it does not automatically mean it is haqq, truth. If no proof is provided, it should not even be considered.

But hey, to each his own right? If you want to believe that our Imams(as) had nothing better to do than cry, wail, moan, sing along to poetry with chest beating/cutting accompaniment, then by all means... keep that hollowed out picture of the most holy human beings the earth has seen in your head.

The Imams(as) in my tiny mind, from the little bit I have researched, were too busy studying & teaching & trying to fight the tyranny & ignorance around them.

If you want to follow the traditions of the poets & market profiteers of the empires past, then go right ahead... as long as your conscience & soul make it 'halal'.

I, on the other hand, prefer to follow the mustahabat that the Ahlul Bayt(as) have left us in AUTHENTIC traditions that also do not go against one's common sense.

And for the brother that says Syed Sistani 'allows' zanjeer/blood matam to be performed... think again. It depends on where you live, according to his official representatives. If you live in the west, Sistani does NOT allow such 'loving' behavior.

I hope I have not offended anyone. May Allah forgive me if I said anything in error. May He guide us all to the proper truth, the indisputable truth of the perfect light, and not the dimmed light that certain 'scholars' have been providing us.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Asalam Alaikum.

Why can't we simply perform actions that are advised by Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and the rest of the Imams(A.S).

If there is an objection on down playing the role of Azadari, than I have an objection on down playing the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and Imams(A.S).

I mean did Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and/or any Imams(A.S) ever express themselves like this?

I know Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) lost Abu Talib and Bibi Khadija in short intervals. How loudly did he cry? How much blood did he waste?

People these days need to learn to donate that same blood and help victims from Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, and other wars.

Simply ask yourself with a neutral, calm, and mature manner. If Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) or any Imam(A.S) was present, would they perform any of these actions?

We are commemorating the Martyrs who saved Islam, can we create our own method of Azadari or should we use what they shed their blood for?

I am sorry if I sound to undermine the importance of Azadari but not at the expense of what our Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and Imams(A.S) taught us which are priceless and 'divine' values?

I mean when was the last time you heard any Ulema talk about how Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) or any Imam(A.S) spent these days of grief.

Imam Redha (A.S.) said:

"With the advent of the month of Muharram, my father Imam Kadhim (A.S.) would never be seen laughing; gloom and sadness would overcome him for (the first) ten days of the month; and when the tenth day of the month would dawn, it would be a day of tragedy, grief and weeping for him."

Thank You.

Take care.

Allah Hafiz.

What do you say about Owais Kurni (ra). Did Prophet (pbuh) say that Owais had committed a grave mistake? As much i remember Owais was given great status after his breaking of teeth in love of Prophet (pbuh). However, giving me negative reputation is not the answer of my question. My question remains there because even my cousin asked that if Zanjeer Zani is not allowed by Ayatullah Sistani (a.r) [ I do not disrespect him even if he did not allow it because it is his Ijtehad ] then he would do the taqleed of a Marja who allows it. I agree brother Orion that we should follow the most knowledgeable Marja but many family members of my family do Zanjeer Zani and get spiritual power from this therefore, we need to follow such a Marja in whose taqleed it is allowed.

[gogiison2]

^sayed ammar nakshawani says that Owais was praised for his obedience to his mother from what i remember. also, if we look at it from that angle, can we say that in all of islamic history after Rasoolullah's birth that only 2 people, Owais and bibi Zainab, supposedly 'loved' Imam Husayn? no one else loved Imam? this is why i say it takes using aql as well.

-it's reported The Prophet of Islam says: "God has assigned two guides to man: one external to him, the messengers of God, and the other internal, his own power of thought.

Edited December 16, 2009 by gogiison2

[Aabiss_Shakari]

^sayed ammar nakshawani says that Owais was praised for his obedience to his mother from what i remember. also, if we look at it from that angle, can we say that in all of islamic history after Rasoolullah's birth that only 2 people, Owais and bibi Zainab, supposedly 'loved' Imam Husayn? no one else loved Imam? this is why i say it takes using aql as well.

-it's reported The Prophet of Islam says: "God has assigned two guides to man: one external to him, the messengers of God, and the other internal, his own power of thought.

I wonder how you concluded that if one does not do Zanjeer Zani, it means he does not love Imam Hussain (as)?

[gogiison2]

^isn't that the usual malang argument these days? take a look around next time and ask people who it is that do zinjeer. you may see patterns in the way they act. i think you'll see what i mean. (for the most part, that is)

do you know of any marjas that do zinjeer?

Edited December 16, 2009 by gogiison2

[AliWala01]

^isn't that the usual malang argument these days?

No, actually it isn't. If you know anyone who says people who don't do zanjeer don't love Imam Husain (as) please give them a courtesy slap from me. Actually give yourself one too for generalizing.

do you know of any marjas that do zinjeer?

And what if I do?

"MERAY SAR PAR QAMMA AUR PUSHT PARR MATAM ZANJEER KE NISHAAN JUNAAB E FATIMA ZAHRA (SA) KE HUZOOR MERI SHIFAAT KA SAMAAN HAIN"

AYATOLLAH E UZAMA AS SHEIKH BASHIR HUSSAIN NAJAFI

"The marks of qama zani on my head and zanjeer zani on my back are what I have as my intersession in the presence of Janab e Fatima Zahra (sa)."

- Ayatullah alUzma Bashir Husain Najafi

Edited December 16, 2009 by AliWala01

[gogiison2]

name='AliWala01' date='16 December 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1260994611' post='1997183']

No, actually it isn't. If you know anyone who says people who don't do zanjeer don't love Imam Husain (as) please give them a courtesy slap from me. Actually give yourself one too for generalizing.

MashaAllah. the way people let their emotions type for them. i'm kind of glad you aimed that virtual slap at me. allow this parable since evidently you didn't know of it and if you heard of it you most assuredly had forgotten the message. It's reported that Prophet Isa was walking and a group of men started insulting Prophet Isa and Ruhullah started smiling and the men were puzzled and they asked Prophet Isa why is he smiling when we're abusing you and then it's said that Prophet Isa says i'm thankful that you insulted me and not anyone else that didn't have sabr because i am able to take your cruel words.^ you see that arrow pointing upward? turn your screen so that it smiles at you. that represents my smile twd you.

so ya, do you do zinjeer? clearly the 'love' or lack thereof is seen in your method of speech.

And what if I do?

"MERAY SAR PAR QAMMA AUR PUSHT PARR MATAM ZANJEER KE NISHAAN JUNAAB E FATIMA ZAHRA (SA) KE HUZOOR MERI SHIFAAT KA SAMAAN HAIN"

AYATOLLAH E UZAMA AS SHEIKH BASHIR HUSSAIN NAJAFI

"The marks of qama zani on my head and zanjeer zani on my back are what I have as my intersession in the presence of Janab e Fatima Zahra (sa)."

- Ayatullah alUzma Bashir Husain Najafi

okay, so only 1 marja? and do the 'malang types' slander and backbite him as well or no? Edited December 17, 2009 by gogiison2

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Being Malang of Ali (as) o Hussain (as) is not bad. May i be included among them. You are just using it as slander. Malang Malang Malang huh

[kaali_daal]

Asalam Alaikum.

Modern day Malangs should not be mixed up with persons like Behlool. The role of Malang comes from this man. Modern day malangs are no where near him. Behlool let his Intellect do the work.

Take care.

Allah Hafiz.

Edited December 17, 2009 by kaali_dal

[AliWala01]

MashaAllah. the way people let their emotions type for them. i'm kind of glad you aimed that virtual slap at me. allow this parable since evidently you didn't know of it and if you heard of it you most assuredly had forgotten the message. It's reported that Prophet Isa was walking and a group of men started insulting Prophet Isa and Ruhullah started smiling and the men were puzzled and they asked Prophet Isa why is he smiling when we're abusing you and then it's said that Prophet Isa says i'm thankful that you insulted me and not anyone else that didn't have sabr because i am able to take your cruel words.^ you see that arrow pointing upward? turn your screen so that it smiles at you. that represents my smile twd you.

Yeah, consider yourself a saint for 'smiling' at what could hardly be considered an insult, but think of those momins whose hearts you are crushing when you say such anti-zanjeer things.

so ya, do you do zinjeer? clearly the 'love' or lack thereof is seen in your method of speech.

You first say that somehow it is the 'malang position' that people who don't do zanjeer do not have love for Maula Husain (as). Then you go on and try to question my love for maula. Seriously, you can consider yourself as righteous as you want but such rightousness is not present in your method of speech.

okay, so only 1 marja? and do the 'malang types' slander and backbite him as well or no?

And what if I do his taqleed? Wouldn't just that 1 marja's opinion be sufficient? Don't create added controversy for no reason.

[gogiison2]

name='AliWala01' date='17 December 2009 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1261073320' post='1997584']

Yeah, consider yourself a saint for 'smiling' at what could hardly be considered an insult, but think of those momins whose hearts you are crushing when you say such anti-zanjeer things.

this is the problem i see with you, you don't see saying such things to others as wrong. i can understand since many malang types love to bash scholars these days so saying you want to slap others is hardly considered an insult to you. wonder where you learned this?

You first say that somehow it is the 'malang position' that people who don't do zanjeer do not have love for Maula Husain (as). Then you go on and try to question my love for maula. Seriously, you can consider yourself as righteous as you want but such rightousness is not present in your method of speech.

i can be the most sinful of all. Allahu Alim, but let me make myself clear to you, once you talk to me with proper manners, then iA we can get to the bottom of this.

And what if I do his taqleed? Wouldn't just that 1 marja's opinion be sufficient? Don't create added controversy for no reason.

if you do his taqleed, then it's your choice. ask him if he approves of you saying you want to slap others and tell me what he says.

listen brother, i don't have anything against you personally and i don't have time to waste on your emotional roller coasters. if you want to discuss this intellectually then iA we can continue. good day.

Edited December 17, 2009 by gogiison2

[AliWala01]

this is the problem i see with you, you don't see saying such things to others as wrong. i can understand since many malang types love to bash scholars these days so saying you want to slap others is hardly considered an insult to you. wonder where you learned this?

Again, generalization. It's easy to judge a book by it's cover. But you think there might have been a cause for me to say what I said? If you had not made a eneralization about malangs, and using the term in a derogatory way, there would be no possible way for me to use such a tone. I'm more worried about where you learned to make generalizations.

i can be the most sinful of all. Allahu Alim, but let me make myself clear to you, once you talk to me with proper manners, then iA we can get to the bottom of this.

How can you expect to get respect when you speak about a large group of people in such a derogatory manner? Your belief is that malangs have a distorted view of Azadari, correct? Whatever your belief is, don't you think that based on the fact that however wrong malangs may be, their pure love and devotion to Imam Husain (as) is enough of a reason to NOT speak of them in a derogatory way?

if you do his taqleed, then it's your choice. ask him if he approves of you saying you want to slap others and tell me what he says.

Likewise, I have nothing against you, and I apologize for my original tone, but know that there was a reason behind it. Instead of blaming others let's look at ourselves first.

As far as the topic at hand goes, you requested a marja that has done zanjeer and I provided. Where do we move on from here?

[gogiison2]

name='AliWala01' date='17 December 2009 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1261081439' post='1997646']

Again, generalization. It's easy to judge a book by it's cover. But you think there might have been a cause for me to say what I said? If you had not made a eneralization about malangs, and using the term in a derogatory way, there would be no possible way for me to use such a tone. I'm more worried about where you learned to make generalizations.

ya it's rather simple to judge a book by it's cover when it's a pop-up talking book lol. i'm generalizing the usual 'malangs-types' of today. and i think you just proved me right in the next quote i shall show you.

How can you expect to get respect when you speak about a large group of people in such a derogatory manner? Your belief is that malangs have a distorted view of Azadari, correct? Whatever your belief is, don't you think that based on the fact that however wrong malangs may be, their pure love and devotion to Imam Husain (as) is enough of a reason to NOT speak of them in a derogatory way?

bingo, 'pure love' LOL. i was waiting until you pulled that 'love' card. this answers why i asked what i did in post #27 about the 'love.' this is why i ask you if you do zinjeer and what does love mean to you?

Likewise, I have nothing against you, and I apologize for my original tone, but know that there was a reason behind it. Instead of blaming others let's look at ourselves first.

As far as the topic at hand goes, you requested a marja that has done zanjeer and I provided. Where do we move on from here?

that's fine if you think you apologized but i hope you learn a lesson from it or else what does your apology mean..nothing. according to you, i bet there are reasons that these akhbari-malang-types also slander and backbite scholars as well, right? come on brother, let's not act like we don't know what type of manners the majority of them bring to the table.