Womankind

[Marbles]

Growing up as a fatherless child from the age of 7 among four women including three sisters with no other male figure around, I thought that I am best poised to understand the needs of women and problems they face in contemporary societies.

However, I have come to the conclusion that I am far from understanding womankind as a gender. Would a male perspective in my early years improved this understanding?

There is an intellectual air when speaking about the oppression of women, their emancipation and the ways to achieve it. Noble thing to do but it has become a one way process. We are happy to talk about the benefits but overlook the costs and earned responsibilities that come along with it.

The needs of modern women have come at a high cost.... trivialising the needs of men and a dangerously eroded family/social structure. Women in their pursuit of 'freeing' themselves from the clutches of ''traditionalism' feel it acceptable to cross borders and trample on the personal space and rights of men, both from ethical and religious standpoints. Men have been put into a difficult situation with little ability to deal with these women who seem to be perpetually angry.

Men are described as primitive "cavemen" whose only goal is to maintain oppressive privileges. I am fed up with reading this on on SC...comments such as 'most men are not good enough for women', [as if women are sacred houris from heaven] ‘women do so many sacrifices' [as if men enjoy sacrifice-free life], 'all men are pigs until proven otherwise' [what about your fathers, brothers, husbands and sons?]. It goes without saying that this behaviour is condescending, rude, vulgar and repulsive.

What angers me is that comments like this appear to enjoy approval. The vast majority of women are complicit with their silence. Just look at the responses to the afore-mentioned comments on SC. No condemnation whatsoever. Does being 'feminist give them the licence to insult men. All hell would break loose if men said some of the things about women that women get away with. Does the responsibility of maintaining community akhlaq fall only on men?

This mindset is destructive. It plays into the hands of real misogynists and insults the intelligence and integrity of the mostly good, but continually dissed men, who really want to create a workable solution based on equality in the society. Modern woman has the academic smarts to work in a man's world but she has also revealed a narrow small minded attitude that favours themself over the common good. Increasingly aggressive if not everything falls their way, women have achieved their milestones by adopting the worst of the traits of men - not the best.

Women are increasingly becoming an embarrassment to their gender and to their legacy of their mothers, grandmothers and aunts. They have dropped the grace and nobility in search of an elusive and sometimes unclear role in the modern world. There is a genuine need to do some introspection as to the impact of this grab for the society at large.

I have received scorns from men for being biased in favour of women. But women have pushed the boundaries too far and I am having more and more trouble justifying it. Is it justifiable?

[baradar_jackson]

I tend to agree with you, although I think the very fact that we mention such issues is part of the problem.

I think ultimately, improvement of gender relations needs to happen from the bottom up. No type of social reforms can change the attitudes of individuals.

Individuals must make a genuine effort toward training themselves to have genuine respect for the opposite sex. I am in the same boat as you; I don't have any brothers, and I have been fatherless since I was 3 or 4 years old. I have seen the behavior of women from very close. And yet, against every instinct (not to mention every experience I have had with the women in my family), I have a lot of respect for women. This is because every time I have felt like their individual faults were indicative of a wider (inherent) fault, I have suppressed those thoughts. I have acknowledged the many faults they could see in us (men), and consider as being inherent. This may sound dumb, but it works.

If there is ever genuine mutual respect between men and women, then the issue of tradition vs. modernity will become irrelevant.

[Marbles]

I tend to agree with you, although I think the very fact that we mention such issues is part of the problem.

I think ultimately, improvement of gender relations needs to happen from the bottom up. No type of social reforms can change the attitudes of individuals.

Individuals must make a genuine effort toward training themselves to have genuine respect for the opposite sex. I am in the same boat as you; I don't have any brothers, and I have been fatherless since I was 3 or 4 years old. I have seen the behavior of women from very close. And yet, against every instinct (not to mention every experience I have had with the women in my family), I have a lot of respect for women. This is because every time I have felt like their individual faults were indicative of a wider (inherent) fault, I have suppressed those thoughts. I have acknowledged the many faults they could see in us (men), and consider as being inherent. This may sound dumb, but it works.

I agree that there should be an effort to introduce the change from bottom up. If the foundation is put straight the building would be strong.

I don't understand the inherent weaknesses[?] of women, and men, you are hinting at. How these discrepancies create a conflict at the societal level?

If there is ever genuine mutual respect between men and women, then the issue of tradition vs. modernity will become irrelevant.

Actually, you will notice that the debate about men and women, and the oppression/rights of women, is increasingly made in reference to modernity vs. traditionalism. We can't make the point without dealing with the premise whether we accept it as valid or not.

[Maryaam]

To Marbles: Hmmm… not sure what to make of this. It is interesting that you so clearly recognize the relatively newly established foibles of a bare minority of women but neglect the century’s long foibles of men. Unless you are taking care of your own backyard of ignorant posts – I would be careful about attacking others. Anyway, this is a gross exaggeration. I am really surprised to see this from you.

Modern woman has the academic smarts to work in a man's world but she has also revealed a narrow small minded attitude that favours themselves over the common good.

How are these two idea related? Academic achievement is to be applauded regardless of the gender.

Academic achievement =small minded attitude? OK – I am confused - does this supposition work for men too?

To Baradar

This is because every time I have felt like their individual faults were indicative of a wider (inherent) fault, I have suppressed those thoughts. I have acknowledged the many faults they could see in us (men), and consider as being inherent. This may sound dumb, but it works.

What do you mean?

[baradar_jackson]

I agree that there should be an effort to introduce the change from bottom up. If the foundation is put straight the building would be strong.

I don't understand the inherent weaknesses[?] of women, and men, you are hinting at. How these discrepancies create a conflict at the societal level?

I am saying that we (men) should not view the faults of individual women as inherently female traits (and vice versa; women should not view the faults of individual men as inherently male traits). I think this is the origin of the problem.

Actually, you will notice that the debate about men and women, and the oppression/rights of women, is increasingly made in reference to modernity vs. traditionalism. We can't make the point without dealing with the premise whether we accept it as valid or not.

But the current debate is not grounded in mutual respect. In order to attain mutual respect, this debate needs to more or less be ignored. Ones individual experiences must be ignored. Have you read 1984? I don't really like it but there is one part of it which is worth remembering: in the end, Winston loves Big Brother in spite of all that had happened. This is a good metaphor for improving gender relations. Disregard what your head tells you.

[Mohammed-W]

(bismillah)

men do have some perversions they expect women to incorporate and so women get mixed messages.

i.e i marry you for fun and marry her for housekeeping and stability.

getting women to accept this leaves some fighting for recognition the 'sexy woman' is granted, and the 'sexy woman' fighting for the respect the 'homely woman' is granted.

or else all hell breaks loose when a woman (taking on the mens perveted asumption) wants to be seen as both.

just 1 example. ^

actually the submissive role is the dominant one in reality. since the one who dominates needs subbmisssion to the domination or else they lose grip altogether.

Allah SWT give women a type of dominance over men in being submissive but they dont see it and break the balance.

[Marbles]

Hmmm… not sure what to make of this. It is interesting that you so clearly recognize the relatively newly established foibles of a bare minority of women but neglect the century’s long foibles of men. Unless you are taking care of your own backyard of ignorant posts – I would be careful about attacking others. Anyway, this is a gross exaggeration. I am really surprised to see this from you.

Well, we are not weighing the ‘foibles’ of the two genders from the remotest antiquity till modern times to find out who did worse. It is no contest although you are implicitly blaming all men for the problems women face. I don’t think it is helpful for the discussion if you cover up the issues raised with general statements like ‘foibles of a bare minority of women’. What the hell does it suppose to mean? It’s a non statement to be honest.

You have conveniently overlooked the points I have made and came up with your ‘surprise’. Gimme a break will you?

Modern woman has the academic smarts to work in a man's world but she has also revealed a narrow small minded attitude that favours themselves over the common good.

How are these two idea related? Academic achievement is to be applauded regardless of the gender.

Academic achievement =small minded attitude? OK – I am confused - does this supposition work for men too?

This equation is the figment of your imagination. I didn’t say that. I only said that educated women should not exhibit narrow mindedness. The fact that they are educated unlike their mothers and grandmothers should help them develop an all-encompassing worldview. But this is not we see. We notice that the more a woman is educated, the more narrow minded, adamant and angry she is.

Deal with the issues not the rhetoric.

Let me tell you something for self-reflection. You are an intelligent and savvy female. You don’t make blunt anti-men statements. But I think that your and ilk's pseudo-intellectualism coupled with subcutaneous bias towards these burning issues provides legitimacy to aggressive and angry feminists, and therefore, to the mistreatment of men.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Marbles

[Marbles]

I am saying that we (men) should not view the faults of individual women as inherently female traits (and vice versa; women should not view the faults of individual men as inherently male traits). I think this is the origin of the problem.

Not viewing the supposed weaknesses as inherent doesn't make the problems go away does it? So how do we address it?

But the current debate is not grounded in mutual respect. In order to attain mutual respect, this debate needs to more or less be ignored. Ones individual experiences must be ignored. Have you read 1984? I don't really like it but there is one part of it which is worth remembering: in the end, Winston loves Big Brother in spite of all that had happened. This is a good metaphor for improving gender relations. Disregard what your head tells you.

I have been doing this all along. Check my record on SC. But are those angry women willing to reciprocate? I doubt it very much.

[Maryaam]

Well, we are not weighing the ‘foibles’ of the two genders from the remotest antiquity till modern times to find out who did worse. It is no contest although you are implicitly blaming all men for the problems women face. I don’t think it is helpful for the discussion if you cover up the issues raised with general statements like ‘foibles of a bare minority of women’. What the hell does it suppose to mean? It’s a non statement to be honest.

You have conveniently overlooked the points I have made and came up with your ‘surprise’. Gimme a break will you?

This equation is the figment of your imagination. I didn’t say that. I only said that educated women should not exhibit narrow mindedness. The fact that they are educated unlike their mothers and grandmothers should help them develop an all-encompassing worldview. But this is not we see. We notice that the more a woman is educated, the more narrow minded, adamant and angry she is.

Deal with the issues not the rhetoric.

Let me tell you something for self-reflection. You are an intelligent and savvy female. You don’t make blunt anti-men statements. But I think that your and ilk's pseudo-intellectualism coupled with subcutaneous bias towards these burning issues provides legitimacy to aggressive and angry feminists, and therefore, to the mistreatment of men.

Having a bad day Marbles?

Im not a good fighter :P - so you better calm down and listen.

How can you attack women for having faults that you in your OP attributed to men - they have taken "the worst of the traits of men” and then stamp a time frame suitable to yourself only. Shouldnt you attack the origin of these traits - not the outfall?

Where is the proof for increase in women's education leads to narrow mindness??. Where does this come from?.

No I dont make blunt anti-men statements - but you have made blunt anti-women statements with your generalizations. Are you saying that only aggressive feminists act this way or all women as it is not clear? It seems that you are referring to a much broader audience.

Thank you [not really] for calling me intelligent and savvy, only to tell me that I am biased. How about your own bias which disregards, with a stroke of a pen, the huge advancements made by women, in often difficult circumstances.

Also - how about posting something that does not resemble a semantic nightmare so it is easier to understand?

Edited December 12, 2009 by Maryaam

[Marbles]

How can you attack women for having faults that you in your OP attributed to men - they have taken "the worst of the traits of men” and then stamp a time frame suitable to yourself only. Shouldnt you attack the origin of these traits - not the outfall?

How much time women need to come to terms with the reality? Feminism and its achievements were not realised in a day or two. It took decades even centuries. I don’t think women still “need time” to fix their behaviour? It’s no more than a lame excuse. Yet another way to ignore the issues.

Wondering about the origins of those traits is futile. They are human nature. You can control them..channel them but you can’t eradicate them.

Where is the proof for increase in women's education leads to narrow mindness??. Where does this come from?.

I have made no claim that it's always true. But this is observable in the society. Women (mis)use their education and exposure and create rifts between the genders. They want to 'fight' [as you do] not sit down and discuss.Their education doesn’t open their minds. The foundation of their philosophy is based on insulting men as gender. Sadly, a sizable section of womankind buy into their [Edited Out] so easily. Makes me wonder where do all those university years go. Down the drain I think.

No I dont make blunt anti-men statements - but you have made blunt anti-women statements with your generalizations. Are you saying that only aggressive feminists act this way or all women as it is not clear? It seems that you are referring to a much broader audience.

I am referring to a large section of usually well educated women who see things in black and white. I am not generalising all women. You have pulled that out of thin air.

Thank you [not really] for calling me intelligent and savvy, only to tell me that I am biased. How about your own bias which disregards, with a stroke of a pen, the huge advancements made by women, in often difficult circumstances.

I applaud the advancements and achievements of women but I don’t appreciate when they make them a pretext to launch war against all men.

Having a bad day Marbles?

No, I’m having fun at the beach with my radical feminist girlfriend and singing Auld Lang Syne to her. huh.

Im not a good fighter :P .

Well go back to the pavilion then. I’m sorry to break it to you but this is not a boxing match. I have NOT challenged you three rounds in the ring. I have raised some issues and you have chosen to ‘fight’ over them. This is symptomatic of the rotten attitude which puts the two genders at war with each other. Your mellow smileys won’t work here.

- so you better calm down and listen

I’m doing all the listening. You have still all the work ahead of you before you can give me your “well meant” advice. So why don’t you kick-start your brain into the thinking mode and provide a critique of my post?

It is far easier to provocatively dismiss it as ‘semantic nightmare’ than to sit down and deal with the issue at hand. What you don't understand? C'mon. I know you can do better than that.

[baradar_jackson]

I have been doing this all along. Check my record on SC. But are those angry women willing to reciprocate? I doubt it very much.

That's precisely the point. You need to ignore it.

The point is not for them to reciprocate, the point is for you to be part of the solution. You can only control your own attitude, not anyone else's.

[Maryaam]

How much time women need to come to terms with the reality? Feminism and its achievements were not realized in a day or two. It took decades even centuries. I don’t think women still “need time” to fix their behaviour? It’s no more than a lame excuse. Yet another way to ignore the issues.

Women may need to fix certain behaviours, but are these behaviours unique to women? Even you said it was learned behaviour and that men had these similar traits – which are now showing up in women. Maybe they are not desirable but they are no less desirable as they are in men.

Wondering about the origins of those traits is futile. They are human nature. You can control them. channel them but you can’t eradicate them.

Human nature that has just now appeared?

I have made no claim that it's always true. But this is observable in the society. Women (mis)use their education and exposure and create rifts between the genders. They want to 'fight' [as you do] not sit down and discuss.Their education doesn’t open their minds. The foundation of their philosophy is based on insulting men as gender. Sadly, a sizable section of womankind buy into their [Edited Out] so easily. Makes me wonder where do all those university years go. Down the drain I think.

This is some pretty off the wall stuff…supported by “this is observable”. :wacko:

I am referring to a large section of usually well educated women who see things in black and white. I am not generalising all women You have pulled that out of thin air.

The last section I quoted is all generalizations. No need for thin air “finds”.

I applaud the advancements and achievements of women but I don’t appreciate when they make them a pretext to launch war against all men.

We all benefit from achievements no matter who is responsible for creations or discoveries. Women don’t launch wars – if it was up to us there would be no wars.

Well go back to the pavilion then. I’m sorry to break it to you but this is not a andboxing match. I have NOT challenged you three rounds in the ring. I have raised some issues and you have chosen to ‘fight’ over them. This is symptomatic of the rotten attitude which puts the two genders at war with each other. Your mellow smileys won’t work here.

I don’t think making a comment as to the broad sweeping generalizations of your post was asking for a fight. And I am not the one with the rotten attitude here.

I’m doing all the listening. You have still all the work ahead of you before you can give me your “well meant” advice. So why don’t you kick-start your brain into the thinking mode and provide a critique of my post?

It is far easier to provocatively dismiss it as ‘semantic nightmare’ than to sit down and deal with the issue at hand. What you don't understand? C'mon. I know you can do better than that.

Your OP is well written and has some very good and valid points about the down side on society of the emancipation of women. However, it is exaggerated. I don’t think the majority of women seek to ditch their home responsibilities – in fact there are studies that show just the opposite – burnt out women driven by guilt to attempt to be both full time workers and full time homemakers. And yes the price for this is paid by all…stress and stress related diseases are at an all time high for women, men and children. Unrealistic expectations are certainly part of this. But in many cases, women are expected by their husbands and their husbands family to earn money to meet the increasing monetary demands of the family – this may not be, and often isn’t a free choice. Not to say that there aren’t women out there with a CEO position in their sites – but they definitively are not the majority as your post indicates.

The accepted akhlaq of how men and women address each other is deplorable . Women should not be making the comments listed in the OP, and both women and men need to stand up and hold those that do accountable. I am guilty of this myself as it is often in something that is tongue in cheek or meant to be humourous – but degrading an entire gender is not humourous…societal disrespect is a sign of societal decay.

Individuals must make a genuine effort toward training themselves to have genuine respect for the opposite sex.

If there is ever genuine mutual respect between men and women, then the issue of tradition vs. modernity will become irrelevant.

Well said.

This mindset is destructive. It plays into the hands of real misogynists and insults the intelligence and integrity of the mostly good, but continually dissed men, who really want to create a workable solution based on equality in the society. Modern woman has the academic smarts to work in a man's world but she has [TOO OFTEN] also revealed a narrow small minded attitude that favours themself over the common good.

[iN SOME CASES] Increasingly aggressive if not everything falls their way, women have achieved their milestones by adopting the worst of the traits of men - not the best.

I agree with the above with the upper case additons.

Women are increasingly becoming an embarrassment to their gender and to their legacy of their mothers, grandmothers and aunts. They have dropped the grace and nobility in search of an elusive and sometimes unclear role in the modern world. There is a genuine need to do some introspection as to the impact of this grab for the society at large.

Don’t know where you have gotten your feedback from but mine is that our mothers and grandmothers generation are proud of the accomplishments of their daughters, grand daughters and nieces. Women’s accomplishments benefit us all. However, I think society as a whole has somewhat dropped the values of grace, nobility and dignity – we are ruder and cruder than ever before. This is not a uniquely woman’s issue – it is across the board. To hold women solely accountable for this is biased and unfair.

I have received scorns from men for being biased in favour of women. But women have pushed the boundaries too far and I am having more and more trouble justifying it. Is it justifiable?

Which boundaries and what is too far?

Edited December 13, 2009 by Maryaam

[shoelace]

(bismillah)

(salam)

thought provoking thread deserves +1

[Bonafide Hustler]

bahahaha I really feel its all part of the cycle really. Some women who were so settled into their traditional roles are just finding it difficult to adjust to their new found liberties, which I might add they have admirably fought for over centuries. Even looking at it from a traditional perspective, women had tremendous amounts of work load and responsibility, now given a whole world of enticing new opportunities outside of the confinements of their homes, a lot of women just are finding it hard to sacrifice these opportunities even in part to fulfill their roles at home to a similar extent as previous generations.

Is my 70 year old grand mother who happens to be illiterate, extremely humble, more secured in her place, position and role, more influential in all the local/outer matters of the household, more respectful of her husband, more kind yet quick to put people in their place, harder working and IMO more accomplished than any other women I have ever come across in my life? Heck yes, but that doesn't mean an educated woman is capable of any less. I just feel with everything they have fought for and achieved on that front, women are faced with newer kind of challenges in that there are too many factors, options and opportunities pulling and repelling them one way or another, this makes it hard for them to stabilize and settle into their appropriate roles. Naturally women could always get away with saying a lot more, but they had to do it within the confines of their relationships. New found liberties have just given birth to a whole new vacuum of attitudes that so many women are extremely quick to jump on and exploit without reminding themselves to calm down. A lot of it I feel has to do with anger and resentment towards the male history of domination. A lot of these women tend to be so aggressive and defensive in their approach (Turning every fruitful discussion into a male domination, female oppression case) simply because they do not want to endure such [Edited Out] again. I don't necessarily blame them, as I said I feel its part of a cycle, it will take time but once women get accustomed to their new found freedoms, they will calm down and balance their approach with traditional roles. That I feel would be the ideal situation and generally speaking we are quite far away from that stage although I feel at least we are heading in the right direction.

Ah the emotional PMSING roller coaster that is the female psychological make up, coupled with the new world freedoms of driving a lexus around and owning a gucci store, its indeed a recipe for chaos. All this was inevitable, much like truth, it just needs time to settle.

Oh and Maryam, if women were in charge, we would definitely have wars, though they probably would be for territorial gain based on honeymoon capitals of the world and not natural resources (Apart from diamonds).

[shoelace]

Oh and Maryam, if women were in charge, we would definitely have wars, though they probably would be for territorial gain based on honeymoon capitals of the world and not natural resources (Apart from diamonds).

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dirac Delta function]

Growing up as a fatherless child from the age of 7 among four women including three sisters with no other male figure around,

Well that explains a few things

I thought that I am best poised to understand the needs of women and problems they face in contemporary societies.

However, I have come to the conclusion that I am far from understanding womankind as a gender. Would a male perspective in my early years improved this understanding?

There is an intellectual air when speaking about the oppression of women, their emancipation and the ways to achieve it. Noble thing to do but it has become a one way process. We are happy to talk about the benefits but overlook the costs and earned responsibilities that come along with it.

The needs of modern women have come at a high cost.... trivialising the needs of men and a dangerously eroded family/social structure. Women in their pursuit of 'freeing' themselves from the clutches of ''traditionalism' feel it acceptable to cross borders and trample on the personal space and rights of men, both from ethical and religious standpoints. Men have been put into a difficult situation with little ability to deal with these women who seem to be perpetually angry.

Men are described as primitive "cavemen" whose only goal is to maintain oppressive privileges. I am fed up with reading this on on SC...comments such as 'most men are not good enough for women', [as if women are sacred houris from heaven] ‘women do so many sacrifices' [as if men enjoy sacrifice-free life], 'all men are pigs until proven otherwise' [what about your fathers, brothers, husbands and sons?]. It goes without saying that this behaviour is condescending, rude, vulgar and repulsive.

What angers me is that comments like this appear to enjoy approval. The vast majority of women are complicit with their silence. Just look at the responses to the afore-mentioned comments on SC. No condemnation whatsoever. Does being 'feminist give them the licence to insult men. All hell would break loose if men said some of the things about women that women get away with. Does the responsibility of maintaining community akhlaq fall only on men?

This mindset is destructive. It plays into the hands of real misogynists and insults the intelligence and integrity of the mostly good, but continually dissed men, who really want to create a workable solution based on equality in the society. Modern woman has the academic smarts to work in a man's world but she has also revealed a narrow small minded attitude that favours themself over the common good. Increasingly aggressive if not everything falls their way, women have achieved their milestones by adopting the worst of the traits of men - not the best.

Women are increasingly becoming an embarrassment to their gender and to their legacy of their mothers, grandmothers and aunts. They have dropped the grace and nobility in search of an elusive and sometimes unclear role in the modern world. There is a genuine need to do some introspection as to the impact of this grab for the society at large.

I have received scorns from men for being biased in favour of women. But women have pushed the boundaries too far and I am having more and more trouble justifying it. Is it justifiable?

Nope.

[Marbles]

Women may need to fix certain behaviours, but are these behaviours unique to women? Even you said it was learned behaviour and that men had these similar traits – which are now showing up in women. Maybe they are not desirable but they are no less desirable as they are in men.

Did I claim otherwise? See this is the problem. You make it out as some sort of contest This is the height of naïveté. The fact that men mistreated and oppressed women for centuries doesn't excuse the same behaviour coming from women.

The fact that increasing number of women are falling into the trap and showing erratic behaviour needs to be addressed not swept under the carpet with apologetic statements.

Human nature that has just now appeared?

No. It is there since time immemorial.

This is some pretty off the wall stuff…supported by “this is observable”. :wacko:

Only if you took off the rose tinted spectacles.

The last section I quoted is all generalizations. No need for thin air “finds”.

I agree with the above with the upper case additons.

I don’t think making a comment as to the broad sweeping generalizations of your post was asking for a fight.

Is that not understood, miss obvious? I am not generalising for the sake of generalising. I'm not lumping all women together. Don't read it literally. It is semantical and refers to the growing number of aggressive, angry, hostile and unethical feminists and their followers, both vocal and silent.

We all benefit from achievements no matter who is responsible for creations or discoveries. Women don’t launch wars – if it was up to us there would be no wars.

Have you caught the Wahhabi bug or what? A war between genders is not fought with swords and guns. It was metaphorical. Womankind do not stand a chance in a real combat anyway. Weak creations.

Your OP is well written and has some very good and valid points about the down side on society of the emancipation of women. However, it is exaggerated. I don’t think the majority of women seek to ditch their home responsibilities – in fact there are studies that show just the opposite – burnt out women driven by guilt to attempt to be both full time workers and full time homemakers. And yes the price for this is paid by all…stress and stress related diseases are at an all time high for women, men and children. Unrealistic expectations are certainly part of this. But in many cases, women are expected by their husbands and their husbands family to earn money to meet the increasing monetary demands of the family – this may not be, and often isn’t a free choice. Not to say that there aren’t women out there with a CEO position in their sites – but they definitively are not the majority as your post indicates.

The accepted akhlaq of how men and women address each other is deplorable . Women should not be making the comments listed in the OP, and both women and men need to stand up and hold those that do accountable. I am guilty of this myself as it is often in something that is tongue in cheek or meant to be humourous – but degrading an entire gender is not humourous…societal disrespect is a sign of societal decay.

I have emboldened the only sentence I agree with. The rest is just noise. Even the emboldened one left your pen, keyboard in fact, after so much pressing. It is "nice" you agree that women 'should not be making the comments listed. . .' but you have failed to explore the origins of this hostility, which is the real concern here. I have an inkling that you have just said that for the sake of saying - because the rest of your post is a nauseating attempt to justify or at least rationalise the hostile behaviour of increasing number of women and to dismiss men's grievances as "exaggerations". Interesting how you always add noun "men" to "women" and put the blame on both in order to make it appear as if the problem has no specifics but only generalities. This is pathetic to say the least.

Don’t know where you have gotten your feedback from but mine is that our mothers and grandmothers generation are proud of the accomplishments of their daughters, grand daughters and nieces. Women’s accomplishments benefit us all. However, I think society as a whole has somewhat dropped the values of grace, nobility and dignity – we are ruder and cruder than ever before. This is not a uniquely woman’s issue – it is across the board. To hold women solely accountable for this is biased and unfair.

Again, women are not solely responsible. Show me where I have said that? But it is imperative that we account for the share of women towards the loss of "values of grace, nobility and dignity".

You have showed no backbone to address it objectively because this road leads to dangerous territory, shacking with fear lest you are made to concede bitter truths. You know you don't have a ground to make a stand. So you are beating around the bush.

Which boundaries and what is too far?

Jawaab-e-jaahelan khamooshi baashed. If you don't understand Farsi, it means "silence is the best answer to the ignorant".

Now thank me for the free translation.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Marbles

[Marbles]

Well that explains a few things.

Please explain those things for me. I don't understand.

Nope.

Feel free to elaborate.

[Dirac Delta function]

Oh come now Marbles dear, there was no need for that negative rep. It's not that I care about rep, but I would have preferred you cuss me back.

You are clearly upset about all this, but my "nope" above was actually semi-serious.

What exactly do you want to undrstand about womankind? Are you a social scientist? Do you want to write a thesis about this? If not, do't bother trying to understand women, there are only a few catagories of women you need to understand.

1.Your mother.

Now, don't know about you, but my mother thinks I'm the greatest human being that has ever lived. I can do whatver stupid sh!t I want, and she will still think the same. You dont need to understand your mum, just let her know she is appreciated from time to time. Done

2.Your sisters

You probably have a good relationship with your sisters so probably no need to elaborate on this (my sisters think I'm a [Edited Out], but whatevs). Done

3. Non-romantic friends

Treat them androgonously, as long as no one is hiding romantic feelings, you'll get on just fine. Most of the time women are boring with nothing interesting to say, but they add colour to your life, and can be quite caring and lovely confidants. Done

4.Daughter

I don't have kids, so can't give advice on raising kids, but whatever the difficulties, I would love to have a daughter and treat her like a princess, and give her the sun and everything underneath it. Like her father, she will be smart and gorgeous have a PhD in a mathematical subject. Furthermore she will be an innocent and pure hijabi AND NO BOYS! BOYS ARE BAD!!. Your details may vary somewhat, but Im sure you feel similarly. Done

5.Partners

We divide these into two camps; mut'a and perma wives

Mut'a: Be clear what you want out of this, so that there are no misunderstandings. Do what you need to do, go your separate ways. Don't let emotions get in the way, and don't get into a mut'a relationship with a girl who might have feelings for you, for as Moulana Michael Jackson (ra) said, don't go around breaking young girl's hearts. Done

Perma wife: this is the toughy, all you can do is learn from experience. Men and women are different and they speak different languages, they just do. You will say something and she will think you mean something else, and vice versa. Also, with women, silence is part of communication; when we are silent, we are not saying anything. When they are silent, they are saying you're an ass and you better say something nice.

Accept that these differences exist, and accept that there will be a lot of misunderstanding, drama and emotional blackmail. In time your wife will come to realise that you mean well, even if you do sound like a blithering imbecile and say stupid and offensive [Edited Out] every other breath. You will eventually learn to be offensive less often as you learn what she expects and how she thinks, and she will eventually come to learn that we're not f'king mind-readers.

However you cannot let her take the position of dominance, you have to be dominant, you have to be the man. For a women to wear the trousers in the relationship is a road to disaster. You have to be the man, but lt her feel that this is not a threat to her, and is not a prelude to oppression or anything of that nature.

[Marbles]

Some women are very narrow minded even if they are very educated however I think these types of women would have behaved the same even if they never went to school and same goes for some men who also tend to be very arrogant and narrow minded. It's not a gender issue, we see this kind of attitude in both genders.

Are you saying that women do not maintain community akhlaaq? If some females on SC behave this way that does not allow men to call women akhlaaq-less. Some men on SC would not even know the spelling of akhlaq but that gives me no right to say "does the responsibility of maintaining community akhlaq fall only on women".

Wow big and offensive generalization there! We are becoming an embarrassment to our gender?! No comment!

Two things.

First: Further to my reply to Maryaam about "generalisations", my statements which appear to be so are references only to a section of women not all women. I think this is obvious? I concede that the title of the thread and few statements may appear as if I am viewing women as a unitary group with a shared problem base. Sorry if my phrasings have caused doubt but this is not what I am arguing I assure you.

We hear these things from both men and women Marbles. How many times men on SC post "there are no good women nowadays" and the same amount of times you'll read here "there are no good men anymore". Also if we say "women make many sacrifices" that does not mean men don't just like if I say "my mother is so loving" does that automatically mean "my father is a loveless person"? ...I agree with that last part, calling all men pigs is obviously wrong . I have not seen/heard/read decent women going around saying "men are all pigs" , I've heard it from some teenage girls that all men are pigs as many times as I heard from some teenage boys that all women are wh****. These kids, guys or girls are akhlaaq-less or not mature enough to think before they speak.

I knew it, no men can stay on our side for long, because it is difficult to understand women when you're not one-and same goes for the opposite gender, we too cannot truly understand you guys because we're not guys,

^ That and addressing Bonafide Hustler's post:

bahahaha I really feel its all part of the cycle really. Some women who were so settled into their traditional roles are just finding it difficult to adjust to their new found liberties, which I might add they have admirably fought for over centuries. Even looking at it from a traditional perspective, women had tremendous amounts of work load and responsibility, now given a whole world of enticing new opportunities outside of the confinements of their homes, a lot of women just are finding it hard to sacrifice these opportunities even in part to fulfill their roles at home to a similar extent as previous generations.

Is my 70 year old grand mother who happens to be illiterate, extremely humble, more secured in her place, position and role, more influential in all the local/outer matters of the household, more respectful of her husband, more kind yet quick to put people in their place, harder working and IMO more accomplished than any other women I have ever come across in my life? Heck yes, but that doesn't mean an educated woman is capable of any less. I just feel with everything they have fought for and achieved on that front, women are faced with newer kind of challenges in that there are too many factors, options and opportunities pulling and repelling them one way or another, this makes it hard for them to stabilize and settle into their appropriate roles. Naturally women could always get away with saying a lot more, but they had to do it within the confines of their relationships. New found liberties have just given birth to a whole new vacuum of attitudes that so many women are extremely quick to jump on and exploit without reminding themselves to calm down. A lot of it I feel has to do with anger and resentment towards the male history of domination. A lot of these women tend to be so aggressive and defensive in their approach (Turning every fruitful discussion into a male domination, female oppression case) simply because they do not want to endure such [Edited Out] again. I don't necessarily blame them, as I said I feel its part of a cycle, it will take time but once women get accustomed to their new found freedoms, they will calm down and balance their approach with traditional roles. That I feel would be the ideal situation and generally speaking we are quite far away from that stage although I feel at least we are heading in the right direction.

Ah the emotional PMSING roller coaster that is the female psychological make up, coupled with the new world freedoms of driving a lexus around and owning a gucci store, its indeed a recipe for chaos. All this was inevitable, much like truth, it just needs time to settle.

Oh and Maryam, if women were in charge, we would definitely have wars, though they probably would be for territorial gain based on honeymoon capitals of the world and not natural resources (Apart from diamonds).

Second: I am neither denying nor justifying or not condoning the clearly misogynistic slurs coming from male quarters regardless of the reasons. I am saying that bringing up examples of male hatred for women does not discount the need for responsible behaviour on the part of females. To use the cliche: two wrongs do not make one right. I am complaining that whereas males get a beating for their misogyny, the same behaviour from women against men is excused. [Heck we don't even have an equivalent of "misogyny" against males do we?]. This behaviour is legitimised in the name of the historical suffering of women, their struggles against male oppression, and problems they still face in contemporary societies. Women can easily get away with and buy sympathies for this behaviour but men just can't [not saying they should]. I think this attitude does more harm than good. It insults the goodness of so many kind men who are sympathetic to feminism and offer it a helping hand. This is the crux of my argument about the mistreatment of men. Not to mention the cracks in family/social structures that it has caused.

The wording of your post clearly suggests that it is a gendered fight even though you have stated in the beginning that it has nothing to do with gender per se. Irony?

I am not switching sides. So I am not leaving "them" and going back to "us". I think I am passed that phase. I am trying to understand the disturbing trends I have observed in increasing number of women.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Marbles

[Marbles]

Oh come now Marbles dear, there was no need for that negative rep. It's not that I care about rep, but I would have preferred you cuss me back.

You are clearly upset about all this, but my "nope" above was actually semi-serious.

What exactly do you want to undrstand about womankind? Are you a social scientist? Do you want to write a thesis about this? If not, do't bother trying to understand women, there are only a few catagories of women you need to understand.

1.Your mother.

Now, don't know about you, but my mother thinks I'm the greatest human being that has ever lived. I can do whatver stupid sh!t I want, and she will still think the same. You dont need to understand your mum, just let her know she is appreciated from time to time. Done

2.Your sisters

You probably have a good relationship with your sisters so probably no need to elaborate on this (my sisters think I'm a [Edited Out], but whatevs). Done

3. Non-romantic friends

Treat them androgonously, as long as no one is hiding romantic feelings, you'll get on just fine. Most of the time women are boring with nothing interesting to say, but they add colour to your life, and can be quite caring and lovely confidants. Done

4.Daughter

I don't have kids, so can't give advice on raising kids, but whatever the difficulties, I would love to have a daughter and treat her like a princess, and give her the sun and everything underneath it. Like her father, she will be smart and gorgeous have a PhD in a mathematical subject. Furthermore she will be an innocent and pure hijabi AND NO BOYS! BOYS ARE BAD!!. Your details may vary somewhat, but Im sure you feel similarly. Done

5.Partners

We divide these into two camps; mut'a and perma wives

Mut'a: Be clear what you want out of this, so that there are no misunderstandings. Do what you need to do, go your separate ways. Don't let emotions get in the way, and don't get into a mut'a relationship with a girl who might have feelings for you, for as Moulana Michael Jackson (ra) said, don't go around breaking young girl's hearts. Done

Perma wife: this is the toughy, all you can do is learn from experience. Men and women are different and they speak different languages, they just do. You will say something and she will think you mean something else, and vice versa. Also, with women, silence is part of communication; when we are silent, we are not saying anything. When they are silent, they are saying you're an ass and you better say something nice.

Accept that these differences exist, and accept that there will be a lot of misunderstanding, drama and emotional blackmail. In time your wife will come to realise that you mean well, even if you do sound like a blithering imbecile and say stupid and offensive [Edited Out] every other breath. You will eventually learn to be offensive less often as you learn what she expects and how she thinks, and she will eventually come to learn that we're not f'king mind-readers.

However you cannot let her take the position of dominance, you have to be dominant, you have to be the man. For a women to wear the trousers in the relationship is a road to disaster. You have to be the man, but lt her feel that this is not a threat to her, and is not a prelude to oppression or anything of that nature.

Actually, the origins of the opening posts are not personal. I don't have any issues with the females in my house or outside. So the thread is not 'triggered' by anything. I am just trying to make sense of it.

Thanks for the detailed advice. I appreciate it.

[Dirac Delta function]

Actually, the origins of the opening posts are not personal. I don't have any issues with the females in my house or outside. So the thread is not 'triggered' by anything. I am just trying to make sense of it.

Thanks for the detailed advice. I appreciate it.

No I wasn't suggesting there was any personal aspect to it, just that Im not sure why you would want to understand women beyond those relevant to your personal life, in which case, there are only a few women that you would actually need to understand.

[Marbles]

No I wasn't suggesting there was any personal aspect to it, just that Im not sure why you would want to understand women beyond those relevant to your personal life, in which case, there are only a few women that you would actually need to understand.

I think we all want and try to understand each other. Things become a tad difficult with the opposite gender. Anyway I think I need to understand woman better 'cause of your #5 :P

Oh and as for voting you down, nah, it wasn't me. Maybe someone on these boards doesn't like you lol

[_jen_]

I think its Marbles time of the month...

Anyhow, its obvious the cause of what you are observing is the result of muslim women trying to practice an outdated religion in the Modern World, leading to confusion of their roles .

[Maryaam]

The natural need of companionship, of men and family will never cease regardless of how independent women become. The thing that changed is that modern women do not need to totally rely on men and hence more confident to lead their lives until they find a suitable partner rather than any partner. As a woman I see this is a good change, for men it might not feel as pleasant . I do agree however that some well educated women are in denial and think just because they have PHDs/earn for themselves/lead their lives , that they have no need for men - whether husbands, fathers, brothers etc . These are not the majority though but I think you are referring to these type of women.

Nicley put :)

I agree with that last part, calling all men pigs is obviously wrong . I have not seen/heard/read decent women going around saying "men are all pigs" , I've heard it from some teenage girls that all men are pigs as many times as I heard from some teenage boys that all women are wh****. These kids, guys or girls are akhlaaq-less or not mature enough to think before they speak.

but we should be addressing these comments as inappropriate as they appear - and I think Marbles anger is justifiable here. He does address male comments against women quite regularily. It is a big point that women do not address ugly things women say about men on those threads and view it as a joke justified as payback for the horrible things men say. It is wrong and leads to a lot of hostility,

I knew it, no men can stay on our side for long, because it is difficult to understand women when you're not one-and same goes for the opposite gender, we too cannot truly understand you guys because we're not guys,

I think it would be nice if we were all on the same side and did not let gender divide us. There seems to be more positive interactionamoung non-Mulsim males and females (and I am not ignoring all the not-so-good Western commercial oppression of women) - but in terms of working respectful relationships. Muslims seem to look for reasons to be at each others throats - differences in gender, race, country of origin, neighbourhood of Baghdad..... you get the idea.

But it is true - it is difficult to understand the oppositie gender and how they react to things - especially when it seems disproportionate.

bahahaha I really feel its all part of the cycle really. Some women who were so settled into their traditional roles are just finding it difficult to adjust to their new found liberties, which I might add they have admirably fought for over centuries.

Maybe

Oh and Maryam, if women were in charge, we would definitely have wars, though they probably would be for territorial gain based on honeymoon capitals of the world and not natural resources (Apart from diamonds).

And your point is..................:P

AND NO BOYS! BOYS ARE BAD!!. Your details may vary somewhat, but Im sure you feel similarly. Done

I am sending that to my dad LOL

I have been doing this all along. Check my record on SC. But are those angry women willing to reciprocate? I doubt it very much.

Yes you have been and it is not reciprocated in kind. Point taken.

I think its Marbles time of the month...

Men do have hormone cycles....

Edited December 13, 2009 by Maryaam

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Growing up as a fatherless child from the age of 7 among four women including three sisters with no other male figure around, I thought that I am best poised to understand the needs of women and problems they face in contemporary societies.

However, I have come to the conclusion that I am far from understanding womankind as a gender. Would a male perspective in my early years improved this understanding?

Agreed.

There is an intellectual air when speaking about the oppression of women, their emancipation and the ways to achieve it. Noble thing to do but it has become a one way process. We are happy to talk about the benefits but overlook the costs and earned responsibilities that come along with it.

The needs of modern women have come at a high cost.... trivialising the needs of men and a dangerously eroded family/social structure. Women in their pursuit of 'freeing' themselves from the clutches of ''traditionalism' feel it acceptable to cross borders and trample on the personal space and rights of men, both from ethical and religious standpoints. Men have been put into a difficult situation with little ability to deal with these women who seem to be perpetually angry.[/b]

What is a "modern" woman? What needs have been taken from you by "modern" women? What "rights" are being trampled on by these perpetually angry little tarts running around in business suits before they have tended to the religious and ethical rights and space of their male counterparts?

Here is the thing.. I am a bit surprised by the generalities in this thread (I am not alone here) so perhaps a little bit of clarification is in order? I know the image painted above is NOT the image you intended on presenting (dear lord lets hope it is not) but that is what it sounds like to my overly aggressive, feminist ears and that reality should be addressed before we can even begin to have anything remotely resembling a civil dialogue that is conducive to better understanding of either gender.

Not asking you to spare my feelings as a woman. We can throw mud all day, but I would rather actually talk (who am i kidding.. mud throwing is more my thing).

Men are described as primitive "cavemen" whose only goal is to maintain oppressive privileges. I am fed up with reading this on on SC...comments such as 'most men are not good enough for women', [as if women are sacred houris from heaven] ‘women do so many sacrifices' [as if men enjoy sacrifice-free life], 'all men are pigs until proven otherwise' [what about your fathers, brothers, husbands and sons?]. It goes without saying that this behaviour is condescending, rude, vulgar and repulsive.

It really does go without saying that this behavior is condescending, rude, vulgar, and repulsive.. so why are we approaching it as though it is representative of feminism when it simple is NOT. Why are we giving it more credit, consideration, and time than it is even worth?

What angers me is that comments like this appear to enjoy approval. The vast majority of women are complicit with their silence. Just look at the responses to the afore-mentioned comments on SC. No condemnation whatsoever. Does being 'feminist give them the licence to insult men. All hell would break loose if men said some of the things about women that women get away with. Does the responsibility of maintaining community akhlaq fall only on men?

Do we visit the same website?

This mindset is destructive. It plays into the hands of real misogynists and insults the intelligence and integrity of the mostly good, but continually dissed men, who really want to create a workable solution based on equality in the society. Modern woman has the academic smarts to work in a man's world but she has also revealed a narrow small minded attitude that favours themself over the common good. Increasingly aggressive if not everything falls their way, women have achieved their milestones by adopting the worst of the traits of men - not the best.

This makes no sense to me. Elaborate? The rest I believe Maryaam and Calm have already addressed so I won't regurgitate their very articulate points.

Women are increasingly becoming an embarrassment to their gender and to their legacy of their mothers, grandmothers and aunts. They have dropped the grace and nobility in search of an elusive and sometimes unclear role in the modern world. There is a genuine need to do some introspection as to the impact of this grab for the society at large.

What do we owe our grandmothers or our gender? Are men as noble as their grandfathers before them? Don't you think our values have eroded and the blame for this does not rest squarely on the shoulder of "womankind" but rather in the general indifference and vices of "humankind?"

I have received scorns from men for being biased in favour of women. [b]But women have pushed the boundaries too far and I am having more and more trouble justifying it. Is it justifiable?

I am definitely pushing all sorts of boundaries ;) . I suggest you put me in my place before I become any more of an embarrassment to my gender or my poor grandmother in Iraq who thinks my brazen, feminist tendencies are a direct ticket to hell.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam

[Bonafide Hustler]

who needs women when a brother can cook like yours sincerely, check out my sophisticated recipes in the cooking threads, secret ingredients shall be revealed as I level up on rep points

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

who needs women when a brother can cook like yours sincerely, check out my sophisticated recipes in the cooking threads, secret ingredients shall be revealed as I level up on rep points

Blithering imbecile.

[Marbles]

but we should be addressing these comments as inappropriate as they appear - and I think Marbles anger is justifiable here. He does address male comments against women quite regularily. It is a big point that women do not address ugly things women say about men on those threads and view it as a joke justified as payback for the horrible things men say. It is wrong and leads to a lot of hostility,

Oh I’m glad you finally addressed the issue instead of dancing like a whirling dervish chanting “women, women” in ecstasy. Riggghtt, the thing is that I value your opinion and was distressed to see you so easily throw out my thoughts. It was a serious issue and you were being dismissive and arrogant. I was really rude and mean to you wasn’t I? But I’m glad it worked for you LOL. Soo am I sorry for being rude? NO. Should you apologise for taking million years to get to the point? DEFINITELY YES :P

I knew that you know I am not made at you for real - your cool and calm reaction proved that. :angel:

Dair aayed durust aayed [i’m not translating this one for you]

[Maryaam]

who needs women when a brother can cook like yours sincerely, check out my sophisticated recipes in the cooking threads, secret ingredients shall be revealed as I level up on rep points

Men who can cook are hot commodities - I hear it all the time - you will be beating them off... :Hijabi:

[Bonafide Hustler]

thanks for the compliment maryam sis, i added another recipe

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Men who can cook are hot commodities - I hear it all the time - you will be beating them off... :Hijabi:

The idea that bonafide wannabe will ever have one woman interested in him romantically (let alone enough to require him to beat them off) has me literally rofl'ing.

[Maryaam]

Oh I’m glad you finally addressed the issue instead of dancing like a whirling dervish chanting “women, women” in ecstasy. Riggghtt, the thing is that I value your opinion and was distressed to see you so easily throw out my thoughts. It was a serious issue and you were being dismissive and arrogant. I was really rude and mean to you wasn’t I? But I’m glad it worked for you LOL. Soo am I sorry for being rude? NO. Should you apologise for taking million years to get to the point? DEFINITELY YES :P

I knew that you know I am not made at you for real - your cool and calm reaction proved that. :angel:

Dair aayed durust aayed [i’m not translating this one for you]

Read into what you wiil.......but

actually, my timing is impeccable and yes, apology accepted.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Maryaam

[Shia & Proud]

^More than likely.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

^More than likely.

Clue #1: Who could possibly be mean to maryaam?

I smell something fishy

Edited December 14, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam