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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunni Ali(ra) and Shia Ali(as)?

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lotfilms

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(bismillah)

(salam)

As we know, there are a number of differences in fiqh, aqeeda, and a number of other issues between Sunnis and Shia (as well as a number of similarities).

The Shia claim to largely get their Sunnah from the 12 Imams (as) going through Imam Ali (as). Though, there are some instances of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) quoting Jabir ibn Abdullah (ra), one of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh)

And the Sunnis claim to largely get their Sunnah from the Companions.

However, when examining Sunni and Shia ahadith we find a "Sunni Imam Ali" and a "Shia Imam Ali", where the Imam is quoted as saying contradictory things. In Sunni books, he largely says things that conform to the Sunni school of thought and in Shia books he largely says things that conform to the Shia school of thought. Same thing with Jabir bin Abdullah (ra), Ammar bin Yassir (ra), and a number of other Shias.

For example, in Sunni books, the Imam (as) folds his hands during prayer, forbids muta, and is a normal person. In the Shia books, he is the opposite.

Also, what the Imam (as)is quoted as saying in Sunni books largely conforms with what the other Companions are quoted as saying.

So, some questions I have:

For the Sunnis, what do attribute the differences to?

and for the Shias, do you know of any in-depth research that discusses depth and scope of the Umayyid's involvement in the tinkering of the Sunnah?

I have been very interested in researching my question to the Shias.

ahadith, historical books, etc are all welcome.

Inshallah we can have an interesting discussion.

wa salam

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However, when examining Sunni and Shia ahadith we find a "Sunni Imam Ali" and a "Shia Imam Ali", where the Imam is quoted as saying contradictory things.

For example, in Sunni books, the Imam (as) folds his hands during prayer, forbids muta, and is a normal person. In the Shia books, he is the opposite.

Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman banned hadith so that the people would forget. Then when Mu'awiya took over, he first ordered imams to curse Imam Ali (as) in every khutba. Later he tried a different strategy, giving rewards to people who could fabricate pleasant sounding hadith about Uthman. After that, he started paying people to write down all sorts of things about the first 4 Caliphs, but when it came to Ali (as) for every hadith regarding him they had to fabricate something contradictory.

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It is a fact that Abu Bakr, Umer and Uthman hated Imam Ali; it is unfortunate that most hadiths do come from the "companions" of the Prophet (pbuh) because it is obviously coming from those who hated and were jealous of the Imam.

I think it is rather difficult to know right from wrong because of all the fabrication of hadiths. Noone is to blame but the fabricators themselves, the so called "companions", because if i didn't know any better, I would probably be quoting from those same made up hadiths.

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(bismillah) (salam)

regarding all this what i dont understand but i think it is linked. is when shia (i use the term loosely to anybody here for example) explain compaions they judge them according to strictest... no problem but they dont judge Ali SA to strictest or follow his example.

e.g muta banned by a companion kufr etc

not reinstated by Ali... wouldnt that be kufr too?

or else you dont reinstate ..with all the implications.

having the best argument for the path to Allah does not save you and it does not mean you own it either. the truth isnt owned by anyone it is bestowed by Allah SWT so when sunni and shia get to the bottom of this OP for example and they agree. what then? do we create a new sect because we agree now? :wacko:

(10) Of those who split up their religion (i.e. who left the true Islamic Monotheism), and became sects, [i.e. they invented new things in the religion (Bid'ah ), and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.

( سورة الروم , Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #32)

the problem is not even religious it is psychological: ingroup out group mentality, and projection is all it is.

we keep labelling it as a religious problem but the problem is we want status for our group and a social group identity more than anything. the devil is cunning us in thinking the 2 Ali SA is theological it is only fulfilling a social need he instigates.

but we need to get to the bottom of it in the way we see it... theological (not my way of seeing it)

so excuse me and i am eager to see if we can agree :) (on the personality, sayings,doings of Ali SA)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman banned hadith so that the people would forget.

Well, their reason was because they didn't want people putting the hadiths on the same level as the Quran and then neglect the Quran.

And actually, many Shias try to portray 'umar as some satanic villain (same with Abu Bakr) who is trying his best to destroy Islam, but I think when one examines the life of 'umar, one finds that many of his innovations had good intentions that he genuinely believed in. For instance, he removed "haya ala khayril amal" because he didn't want people to abandon jihad (and he wanted people to think that jihad is "khayriil amal", he made the tarawih in congregation because he wanted to unite the scattered Muslims in the mosque under one leader to show their unity and solidarity, he banned muta because he thought it was being abused and he thought it was no longer necessarily.

Many of his innovations look harsher in hindsight, but probably didn't seem so bad at the time. For instance, many Shia add the third shahada (without the intention of it being in the adhan/iqama) and a bunch of other innovations and they don't even bat an eye about it.

Of course, 'umar was still incorrect in his actions because they were against the Sunnah.

Later he tried a different strategy, giving rewards to people who could fabricate pleasant sounding hadith about Uthman. After that, he started paying people to write down all sorts of things about the first 4 Caliphs, but when it came to Ali (as) for every hadith regarding him they had to fabricate something contradictory.

This makes sense and conforms with history, but I was wondering if there was any research proving this beyond a shadow of a doubt? I was thinking of doing such research but my Arabic (especially Classical Arabic) is not at the level I would like it to be for such a task, so I'm spending the next couple years learning and attempting to master the language. In the meantime, I'm wondering if any scholar did some work examining the effects of the Umayyids on the Sunnah?

Really ? Can you bring proof ?

In the Sunan of Abu Dawud, there are these hadiths:

It has been related that 'Ali bin Abu Talib said:

"It is from the Sunnah to place the right hand on the left during Salat under the naval"

But there are questions about 'Abd al-Rahman bin Ishaq in the chain. He is said to be weak.

And another one from Sunan Abu Dawud:

Muhammad bin Qaddama-ibn A'een-Abi Badr-Abi Taloot-Ibn Jareer, from his father, Abu Juhayfah, who said:

"Ali said that it is a sunnah to place one hand on the other below the naval"

Again, problems with the chain.

But something I am curious of, is how do Sunnis think so many differences occurred in the ahadith? Do they say that the Shia just completely made stuff up about Ali (as) and Ja'far al-Sadiq (as) and is there any research to back this up?

wa salam

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he made the tarawih in congregation because he wanted to unite the scattered Muslims in the mosque under one leader to show their unity and solidarity

Was he not aware of the Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib, and Isha prayers? If he hadn't been putting people in jail for narrating hadith of the Prophet (saws) he might have known that the Prophet (saws) said that "the best prayer of a man is in the home, except for the obligatory prayer," and "the superiority of the optional prayer prayed at home over being prayed in the masjid is like the superiority obligatory prayer over the optional prayer."

Most people claim they banned hadith to protect the Quran from having hadith mixed with it. Allah himself swore to protect the Quran, so do these people have no faith that they have to take matters into their own hands? Do they think Allah needs their help? The reality is they banned repeating the words of the Prophet (saws) because if the general public was really familar with the Sunnah they would have seen the errors their leaders made and the contradictions in their rulings vs. the Prophets (saws) rulings.

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For example, how do you think things would have turned out for the empire they were building if the Ghadir Khumm speech spread amongst the people? Or what would the people have thought of Umar as their leader if they all knew about the fight he started when the Prophet (saws) wanted to write his will? What would the people have thought of Abu Bakr as their leader when he fabricated a false hadith "Prophets do not leave inheritance" and angered Fatima (as), if they had all known that "Whoever angers Fatima (as) angers the Prophet (saws), and whoever angers the Prophet (saws) angers Allah?" This is why they banned hadith.

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(bismillah)

i am putting a piece of this here it is very long but if you seriously wanted to get to the bottom of hadeeth it is a good start. you can pm me for the full writing

A critical evaluation with argument and counter-Argument

by sheikh mohammed ali

The advocates (speak in favour) of Hadeeth, unfortunately the vast majority of those who call themselves 'Muslim', consider it to be necessary to elucidate (throw light on, explain) the Qur'an and shed light on those areas where It is silent. Their belief is based on the allegation (assertion, unproved) that the Qur'an does not state the times prescribed for offering the 'salat', prayers, their number, their method or the number of 'rak'a', bowings and kneeling, of each. Hadeeth, they claim, teaches them these things.

Their argument is that the Qur'an is analogous ( partially similar) to a constitution (method of composition) which lays down broad guidelines leaving it to the legislature to fill in the necessary detail in the form of laws, application rules and interpretation bulletins needed to implement the intent (purpose) of the constitution. To them, Hadeeth fills in the detail for their constitution.

Ironically, this is only partially true. They stumbled ( find by chance ) upon this partial truth, misconstrued (interpret wrongly ) it and based it on the wrong rationale ( logical basis ), as we shall, Allah willing, see later.

Hadeeth is claimed to be a 'science' by its advocates, though there is nothing in it that might be amenable (responsive ) to scientific testing. Nonetheless, the 'aHadeeth - of a specific format of which more later - that were reduced to writing have been sorted into two major categories and several sub-categories depending upon the researcher.

Briefly, the two major classifications are 'Hadeeth Shareef' and 'Hadeeth Qudsi'. The vast majority of 'aHadeeth fall into the first category which is defined as the sayings and acts of the Prophet Muhammad as reported verbatim (in exactly the same words), by word of mouth, by his immediate companions. Although derived from the same source, the sayings have come to be known as 'al-aHadeeth an-nabawiya', whereas the acts constitute what is known as 'Sunna Muhammad' roughly translated as Muhammad's 'method'. It is this category of 'aHadeeth that concerns us in this article.

The second classification comprises short sayings - reported verbatim by Muhammad's closest companions - said to be Allah Himself speaking in the first person but issuing from the mouth of Muhammad. They are alleged to be divine revelation outside of the Qur'an. We shall, Allah willing, show later that these allegations are totally contrary (oppose in nature of tendency) to the Qur'an.

The 'aHadeeth ash-shareefah' are further classified into three - though both Al-Bukhari and Muslim recognize two, the first and last only - sub-classes, 'saheeh' (intact or integral), 'ahassan' (good) and 'da'eef' (weak or defective)

'Saheeh' describes those 'aHadeeth reported, in the first person, by an unbroken transmission chain of reporters whose integrity is judged, by the compilers, to be beyond reproach.

'aHassan' refers to those 'aHadeeth that do not conform to the conditions laid down for 'saheeh' in that their transmission chains are good but contain one weak but honest reporter.

'Da'eef' describes the bulk of 'aHadeeth, and which do not meet the requirements for the other two classes. The 'aHadeeth ad da'eefah' may have one or more defects in the transmission chain and are classified into several sub-classes ranging from the 'acceptable' to the 'fraudulent', depending on the type and gravity of the defect in the transmission chain.

It is to be emphasized that the above classification of the 'aHadeeth is based exclusively on the 'sanad', transmission chain, and does not address the 'matn', content or substance of the Hadeeth.

Ironically, there are several 'aHadeeth, traceable to the Prophet himself, that prohibit the recording of anything from him except the Qur'an;

thus in Ahmad Ibn Hanbal as well as in Muslim we find an identical (absolutely alike) Hadeeth stating "Abi Sa'eed Al-Khudri, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of Allah, may peace be upon him, said, 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT the Qur'an. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Qur'an shall erase it'..." Obviously the Prophet's prime motivation was Allah 's imposition of the Qur'an upon him; chapter 28, Al-Qassas, verse 85 states "Surely, the One who decreed the Qur'an upon you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say 'My Lord is fully aware of those who uphold the guidance, and those who have gone astray.'", but also being the astute (shrewd), intelligent man endowed (provide with talent ability) with foresight that he undoubtedly was, he had foreseen the problems that such writing might engender, hence the prohibition on anything from him but the Qur'an, not least because Allah Himself has undertaken to preserve It as stated at chapter 15, Al-Hijr, verse 9, which assures "We have revealed the Reminder and We shall preserve it." Allah says nothing about preserving Hadeeth.

The ban on writing Hadeeth remained in effect till the end of the first century A.H. when Umar Ibn Abdil-Azeez, the great grandson of the illustrious Umar Ibnil-Khattab, became khalifa. This pious and righteous man instituted several memorable 'reforms'. First, he banned the despicable custom of cursing Ali Ibn Abi-Talib from the pulpits (preachers collectively) of the empire - which custom had been imposed by the usurper (seize, throune or power) Mu'awiya Ibn Abi-Sufyan - and attempted to eliminate the ongoing disputes regarding the companions of the Prophet by decreeing that none of them is to be maligned (speak ill of) from the pulpits; they were to be praised instead. Then he lifted the ban on reducing the 'aHadeeth writing. This was a fatal mistake! Umar's intentions are not in question, but in this particular case the road, literally, to Hell is paved (make preparations) with good intentions

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It is a fact that Abu Bakr, Umer and Uthman hated Imam Ali; it is unfortunate that most hadiths do come from the "companions" of the Prophet pbuh.gif because it is obviously coming from those who hated and were jealous of the Imam.

Imam Ali (as) hated them too:

sahih of Muslim, vol. 3 p.1378, No. 1757:

ÝóáóãøóÇ ÊõæõÝøöìó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- ÞóÇáó ÃóÈõæ ÈóßúÑò ÃóäóÇ æóáöìøõ ÑóÓõæáö Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- ÝóÌöÆúÊõãóÇ ÊóØúáõÈõ ãöíÑóÇËóßó ãöäó ÇÈúäö ÃóÎöíßó æóíóØúáõÈõ åóÐóÇ ãöíÑóÇËó ÇãúÑóÃóÊöåö ãöäú ÃóÈöíåóÇ ÝóÞóÇáó ÃóÈõæ ÈóßúÑò ÞóÇáó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- « ãóÇ äõæÑóËõ ãóÇ ÊóÑóßúäóÇ ÕóÏóÞóÉñ ». ÝóÑóÃóíúÊõãóÇåõ ßóÇÐöÈðÇ ÂËöãðÇ ÛóÇÏöÑðÇ ÎóÇÆöäðÇ æóÇááøóåõ íóÚúáóãõ Åöäøóåõ áóÕóÇÏöÞñ ÈóÇÑøñ ÑóÇÔöÏñ ÊóÇÈöÚñ áöáúÍóÞøö Ëõãøó ÊõæõÝøöìó ÃóÈõæ ÈóßúÑò æóÃóäóÇ æóáöìøõ ÑóÓõæáö Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- æóæóáöìøõ ÃóÈöì ÈóßúÑò ÝóÑóÃóíúÊõãóÇäöì ßóÇÐöÈðÇ ÂËöãðÇ ÛóÇÏöÑðÇ ÎóÇÆöäðÇ.

[imam Ali (as) and Abbas went to see umar for some matters. This is what Umar said to them]: "After the Prophet (pbuh) passed away Abubakr said: 'I am the successor of the Prophet (pbuh). Then you two people (Ali and Abbas) came and you Abbas asked for what your nephew (i.e. the prophet PBUH) had left (as inheritance) and you Ali came and asked for what had been left for Fatimah (as) as inheritance. Then Abubakr said: 'I heard the Prophet (pbuh) say we (prophets) leave nothing (as inheritance) and what is left from us is sadaqa.' Then you two announced him as A LIAR, A SINNER, A CHEATER AND A BETRAYER and Allah knows!!! that he was an honest faithful and follower of the truth!!! After the death of Abubakr I became the successor of him and the Prophet (pbuh) and again you two announced me as a A LIAR, A SINNER, A CHEATER AND A BETRAYER (as well)."

Would you love two people who you regard as: "A LIAR, A SINNER, A CHEATER AND A BETRAYER"?

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Imam Ali (as) hated them too:

sahih of Muslim, vol. 3 p.1378, No. 1757:

ÝóáóãøóÇ ÊõæõÝøöìó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- ÞóÇáó ÃóÈõæ ÈóßúÑò ÃóäóÇ æóáöìøõ ÑóÓõæáö Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- ÝóÌöÆúÊõãóÇ ÊóØúáõÈõ ãöíÑóÇËóßó ãöäó ÇÈúäö ÃóÎöíßó æóíóØúáõÈõ åóÐóÇ ãöíÑóÇËó ÇãúÑóÃóÊöåö ãöäú ÃóÈöíåóÇ ÝóÞóÇáó ÃóÈõæ ÈóßúÑò ÞóÇáó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- « ãóÇ äõæÑóËõ ãóÇ ÊóÑóßúäóÇ ÕóÏóÞóÉñ ». ÝóÑóÃóíúÊõãóÇåõ ßóÇÐöÈðÇ ÂËöãðÇ ÛóÇÏöÑðÇ ÎóÇÆöäðÇ æóÇááøóåõ íóÚúáóãõ Åöäøóåõ áóÕóÇÏöÞñ ÈóÇÑøñ ÑóÇÔöÏñ ÊóÇÈöÚñ áöáúÍóÞøö Ëõãøó ÊõæõÝøöìó ÃóÈõæ ÈóßúÑò æóÃóäóÇ æóáöìøõ ÑóÓõæáö Çááøóåö -Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã- æóæóáöìøõ ÃóÈöì ÈóßúÑò ÝóÑóÃóíúÊõãóÇäöì ßóÇÐöÈðÇ ÂËöãðÇ ÛóÇÏöÑðÇ ÎóÇÆöäðÇ.

[imam Ali (as) and Abbas went to see umar for some matters. This is what Umar said to them]: "After the Prophet (pbuh) passed away Abubakr said: 'I am the successor of the Prophet (pbuh). Then you two people (Ali and Abbas) came and you Abbas asked for what your nephew (i.e. the prophet PBUH) had left (as inheritance) and you Ali came and asked for what had been left for Fatimah (as) as inheritance. Then Abubakr said: 'I heard the Prophet (pbuh) say we (prophets) leave nothing (as inheritance) and what is left from us is sadaqa.' Then you two announced him as A LIAR, A SINNER, A CHEATER AND A BETRAYER and Allah knows!!! that he was an honest faithful and follower of the truth!!! After the death of Abubakr I became the successor of him and the Prophet (pbuh) and again you two announced me as a A LIAR, A SINNER, A CHEATER AND A BETRAYER (as well)."

Would you love two people who you regard as: "A LIAR, A SINNER, A CHEATER AND A BETRAYER"?

If it was Imam Ali SA and Abbass then yes i would love them

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Great opening post.

So, some questions I have:

For the Sunnis, what do attribute the differences to?

I linked a friend to this thread a couple of days ago. In his attempt to answer the question, he said that one of the two sides is obviously fabricating hadiths in their favor and that there is no way around it. The easiest way of coming to that conclusion would be to blame the authors of the hadith compilations, like Al-Kulaini, Al-Saduq, and Al-Tusi, or the authors of the Saheehain, the four Sunan, and Imam Ahmad. Of course, as you've suggested, one could just as well blame Bani Ummayah and assume that they had so much of an influence on Ahlul Sunnah that we've lost all the ahadeeth regarding the fada'il of Ahlul Bayt.

Anyways, I figured that the answer to your question would require more research and one should avoid blanket statements like those above without providing proper evidence to back them up.

What I did next was go to the root of the problem, in other words, the closest links to Ali and the differences between Ahlul Sunnah and Shias in the light of the opinions of scholars. My method was to go back to Rijal Al-Tusi and go through the companions of Ameer Al-Mu'mineen. Then, I filtered out the thiqaat from the majaheel and dhu'afaa, and finally compared them with opinions from the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah. I'm sure that my list isn't perfect and is missing a few narrators, so, I'd appreciate it if someone helped out with the inclusion of Shia thiqaat that narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Be aware that I didn't include any narrators that were authenticated due to being in Tafseer Al-Qummi or Kamil A-Ziyaraat.

-----------------------

Al-Hassan bin Ali:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet, Ali bin Abi Talib, and Al-Hussain bin Ali in the four Sunan.

Shia view – Infallible Imam. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and Ali bin Abi Talib.

Al-Hussain bin Ali:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet, Omar bin Al-Khattab, Ali bin Abi Talib, Fatima bint Mohammed. His hadith can be found in the Saheehain and the four Sunan.

Shia view – Infallible Imam. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and Ali bin Abi Talib.

Salman Al-Farsi:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the Prophet in the Saheehain and four Sunan.

Shia view – One of the four foundations. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and Ali bin Abi Talib.

I only found one hadith in which he narrates through Ali, in Baab Al-Haidh from Man la Yahtharahu Al-Faqeeh.

Note: His lack of narrations through Ali is probably because he died before Ali by a few years during the reign of Uthman.

Abu Thar Jundub bin Janabah:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the Prophet in the Saheehain and four Sunan.

Shia view – One of the four foundations. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and Ali bin Abi Talib.

Note: His lack of narrations through Ali is probably because he died before Ali by a few years during the reign of Uthman.

Al-Miqdaad bin Aswad Al-Kindi:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet in the Saheehain and four Sunan. Ali bin Abi Talib also narrated a hadith through Al-Miqdaad up to the Prophet in Saheeh Muslim.

Shia view – Narrated the hadith of the Prophet.

Note: His lack of narrations through Ali is probably because he died before Ali by a few years during the reign of Uthman.

Ammar bin Yasser:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and Huthaifa bin Al-Yaman in the Saheehain and four Sunan.

Shia view – One of the four foundations. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet.

Note: His lack of narrations through Ali is probably because he died before Ali at Siffeen.

Huthaifa bin Al-Yaman:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and Omar bin Al-Khattab in the Saheehain and four Sunan.

Shia view – Some considered him to be a part of the four foundations. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet.

Abdullah bin Al-Abbas:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and several Sahabis including Ali bin Abi Talib in the Saheehain and four Sunan.

Shia view – Narrated the hadith of the Prophet, Ali bin Abi Talib, and Al-Hussain bin Ali. He is a thiqa due to several narrations that speak well of him.

Sa’ad, the servant of Ali:

Sunni view – N/A

Shia view – Al-Barqi states that he was one of the khawaas of Ali.

Hajr bin Adi:

Sunni view – He heard the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Shia view – Thiqa. One of the companions of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Note: Some Ahlul Sunnah scholars disagree regarding his name and his status, from thiqa to sadooq to majhool. Yet, the all agree that he narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Jabir bin Abdullah:

Sunni view - Narrated the hadith of the Prophet, several companions including Ali bin Abi Talib.

Shia view – Al-Khoei states in Mu’jam Al-Rijal that Jabir under the name Jabir bin Abdullah Al-Ansari narrates 17 hadiths from the Prophet. However, he also narrates 11 hadiths that are shared through the Prophet, Ali bin Abi Talib and Fatimah bint Mohammed.

Mohammed bin Abi Bakr:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. He narrated the hadith of his mother Asma bint Umais and a mursal narration through Abu Bakr.

Shia view –Al-Mufid describes him as one of the asfiya’a.

Abdullah bin Abi Ja’ad:

Sunni view – Tabi’ee and maqbool according to Ibn Hajar. Thiqa according to Ibn Hibban. Did not narrate the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Shia view – A companion of Ali. He narrated a single hadith in Tahtheeb Al-Ahkaam. Thiqa according to Al-Najashi.

Note: The tawtheeq of Ibn Hibban is based on his view on asl al-adala, which is why Ibn Hajar didn’t consider the narrator to be at a higher level. As for the term maqbool by Ibn Hajar, it means that the narrator is weak when he is the only person narrated the hadith, according to Al-Albani.

Ziyad bin Abi Ja’ad:

Sunni view – Tabi’ee and maqbool according to Ibn Hajar. Thiqa according to Ibn Hibban. Did not narrate the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Shia view – A companion of Ali. Thiqa according to Al-Najashi.

Note: The tawtheeq of Ibn Hibban is based on his view on asl al-adala, which is why Ibn Hajar didn’t consider the narrator to be at a higher level. As for the term maqbool by Ibn Hajar, it means that the narrator is weak when he is the only person narrated the hadith, according to Al-Albani.

Lut bin Yahya:

Sunni view – Narrated the hadith of Mujalid and Jabir Al-Ju’fi. Has been condemned as weak or a fabricator by Ibn Ma’een, Al-Daraqutni, Ibn Adi, Abu Hatim, and Al-Thahabi.

Shia view – A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib according to Al-Kishi, but rejected by Al-Tusi, for only Yahya was a companion of Ali. Al-Khoei states that he didn’t meet Ali bin Abi Talib either. Thiqa according to Al-Najashi.

Hakeem bin Sa’ad Al-Hanafi:

Sunni view – Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib. Laysa bihi ba’s according to Ibn Ma’een. Sadooq according to Abu Hatim.

Shia view – A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib. Authenticed due to being a part of Shurtat Al-Khamees.

Habeeb bin Mathahir:

Sunni view – N/A

Shia view – A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib. Deemed as trustworthy due due to being a part of Shurtat Al-Khamees.

Saleem bin Qais:

Sunni view – N/A

Shia view – One of the awliya according to Al-Barqi. Narrated several hadiths of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Sahl bin Haneef:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) and Zaid bin Thabit.

Shia view - A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib. Deemed as trustworthy due to being a part of Shurtat Al-Khamees.

Amir bin Wathila:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) and several Sahabis including Ali bin Abi Talib.

Shia view – A companion of the Prophet and of the khawaas of Ali. He narrated a single narration in Al-Tahtheeb.

Abaya bin Rab’ee:

Sunni view – A Tabi’ee. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib. Abu Hatim refers to him as a sheikh, which is the weakest form of ta’deel according to his son Ibn Abi Hatim.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib. Narrated a single hadith in Al-Kaafi.

Note: Mu’jam Al-Rijal includes this form of tawtheeq yet identifies him as majhool.

---------------------------------------------------

Sunni sources:

Al-Jarh wal Ta'deel by Ibn Abi Hatim

Taqreeb Al-Tahtheeb by Ibn Hajar

Tahtheeb Al-Tahtheeb by Ibn Hajar

Al-Taareekh Al-Kabeer by Al-Bukhari

Mizan Al-I'itidal by Al-Thahabi

Al-Thiqaat by Ibn Hibban

Shia sources:

Rijal Al-Tusi by Al-Tusi

Mu'jam Rijal Al-Hadith by Al-Khoei

Al-Mufeed by Al-Jawahiri

Naqd Al-Rijal by Al-Tafrishi

Takmilat Al-Rijal by Al-Kathimee

Any thoughts...?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

First off, I'd like to apologize for my late replies. My laptop died (I think its something with the bios), so I can only sneak onto my dad's computer ever few days at best lol.

Mohammed-W, I'll try to respond to your post in due time inshallah

The easiest way of coming to that conclusion would be to blame the authors of the hadith compilations

I had thought about this at first, but we often find the same hadith in numerous books (and often with different chains), so it may be possible, but unlikely.

Anyways, I figured that the answer to your question would require more research and one should avoid blanket statements like those above without providing proper evidence to back them up.

Agreed, I have thought about going through every narration of al-Bukhari (and then moving on to the other books) and examine the chains and see how much of an effect Banu Umayya really had on Sunni ahadith and see if we are exaggerating their impact. And I was thinking of doing a similar thing with Shia books, but I wasn't sure what criteria I should use. It's easy if there is a government institution like Banu Umayya (because I can just get the names of the people), bu it's harder in our books because we're largely dealing with laypeople or 'ulema.

What do you think about this?

What I did next was go to the root of the problem, in other words, the closest links to Ali and the differences between Ahlul Sunnah and Shias in the light of the opinions of scholars. My method was to go back to Rijal Al-Tusi and go through the companions of Ameer Al-Mu'mineen. Then, I filtered out the thiqaat from the majaheel and dhu'afaa, and finally compared them with opinions from the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah. I'm sure that my list isn't perfect and is missing a few narrators, so, I'd appreciate it if someone helped out with the inclusion of Shia thiqaat that narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib.

As I implied in the first post, I don't think its as simple as this. Because we often see the companions of Ali (as) saying things that conform to the Sunni school of thought in Sunni books and saying things that conform to the Shia school of thought in Shia books. Of course, there are many exceptions, but this is the general trend. Especially with the "top companions" of the Prophet (pbuh) who were also companions of Imam Ali (as).

I haven't tested this scientifically, but this is the general trend I see when I read both books.

There is also another flaw in this; your method is good if we got our hadiths the Sunni method, where the Prophet (in this case, Imam Ali) is the "base person" (the person whom all of the ahadith are directly quoted from) and we get hadiths from the "base person" through the companions.

So your method would be good if we got our ahadith about Imam Ali from the companions of Ali (as.

But this is not the case with us. Most of our ahadith about Imam Ali or the Prophet (pbuh) come from his descendants (the Imams); mostly Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (as) and we get ahadith from al-Sadiq from his companions and the people that came after them, etc (down the line until we reach al-Kulayni)

So, looking at the companions of Ali (as) won't do much good for us since most of the hadiths we have about him from from his descendants (and we know they're thiqat).

In such research, I don't think one can just look at the direct companions of the Prophet (pbuh) or of Ali (as). Rather, we must look at everyone in the chains and see if there is a pattern (ie a pattern of Umayyid distortions in the Sunni books or a pattern of ghulat distortions in Shia books).

And since one of the key differences is the presences of the Imams (as) on our books, I think it would be interesting to see how they are quoted in both sets of books.

For example, in THIS thread, avjar posts these hadiths:

ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÈßÑ ÞÇá ÃäÇ ÍÇÊã Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Úä ÌÚÝÑ Úä ÃÈíå æãÓáã Èä ÃÈí ãÑíã Ãä Úáí Èä ÍÓíä ßÇä íÄÐä ÝÅÐÇ ÈáÛ Íí Úáì ÇáÝáÇÍ ÞÇá Íí Úáì ÎíÑ ÇáÚãá æíÞæá åæ ÇáÃÐÇä ÇáÃæá

Hatim ibn Ismail from Ja'far ibn Muhammad (Ja'far al-Sadiq), from his father (Muhammad al-Baqir) and Muslim ibn Abi Mariam that Ali ibn Hussein, when he gave the adhan, when he reached hayya 'ala al falah, he said hayya 'ala khayr al amal, and he said that this is the first adhan.

If anyone already has research on this subject, it would be nice of them to present it :)

Otherwise, I would say that this is a good chance for some brain-storming for such a project.

wa salam

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I had thought about this at first, but we often find the same hadith in numerous books (and often with different chains), so it may be possible, but unlikely.

Indeed, the chances of that happening due to some sort of major conspiracy regarding hadith narrators is pretty unlikely. Especially when some of those that narrate similar hadiths lived in different eras and locations.

Agreed, I have thought about going through every narration of al-Bukhari (and then moving on to the other books) and examine the chains and see how much of an effect Banu Umayya really had on Sunni ahadith and see if we are exaggerating their impact. And I was thinking of doing a similar thing with Shia books, but I wasn't sure what criteria I should use. It's easy if there is a government institution like Banu Umayya (because I can just get the names of the people), bu it's harder in our books because we're largely dealing with laypeople or 'ulema.

What do you think about this?

I think you should go for it. I suggest starting with Musnad Ahmed though. The chains are usually shorter and Ali's (raa) hadiths come in succession. I believe there are about eight hundred of them in a row, so you don't have to go through the whole book. As for those that were associated with Bani Ummayah, you'd probably have a harder time digging their names up. If you are starting to have a hard time finding links between narrators and Bani Ummayah, I suggest you look up those that were accused of being Nawasib.

There is also another flaw in this; your method is good if we got our hadiths the Sunni method, where the Prophet (in this case, Imam Ali) is the "base person" (the person whom all of the ahadith are directly quoted from) and we get hadiths from the "base person" through the companions.

So your method would be good if we got our ahadith about Imam Ali from the companions of Ali (as.

But this is not the case with us. Most of our ahadith about Imam Ali or the Prophet (pbuh) come from his descendants (the Imams); mostly Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (as) and we get ahadith from al-Sadiq from his companions and the people that came after them, etc (down the line until we reach al-Kulayni)

So, looking at the companions of Ali (as) won't do much good for us since most of the hadiths we have about him from from his descendants (and we know they're thiqat).

Yes, I do agree with what you've mentioned here. However, I see it as more of an issue than just a matter of methodologies. You see, Shias believe in "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is it's gate/door." Due to this, one would assume that Ali's eight hundred or so narrators/companions would be more useful than they are in reality. My brief research above proved to me that almost everyone that was associated with Ali bin Abi Talib was majhool. While Ahlul Sunnah shines in comparison, or at least, that is what my research so far has proven to me. I think I will continue investigating this trend before reaching a final conclusion.

Otherwise, I would say that this is a good chance for some brain-storming for such a project.

Mmm... that's what I had in mind as soon as I read the opening post. This thread is not a place for redundant claims that we've all heard before, but a place for us to come together and shed new light on the reasons of differences between Sunni Ali (raa) and Shia Ali.

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Direct narrators of Ali bin Abi Talib according to Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a:

1) Al-Ahnaf bin Qais:

Sunni view – Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee. Thiqah according to Al-Ajali, Ibn Sa’ad, and Ibn Hajar.

Shia view – Narrated the hadith of the Prophet and Ali bin Abi Talib. No tawtheeq has been attributed to him.

2) Al-Aswad bin Yazeed Al-Nakha’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqa from the major tabi’een. His hadith can be found in the Saheehain and four Sunan.

Shia view – Majhool.

3) Aws bin Abi Al-Aws Al-Thaqafi:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Majhool.

4) Iyas bin Amer Al-Ghafqi:

Sunni view – A difference of opinion between tawtheeq and slight weakening has been attributed to him. Sadooq according to Ibn Hajar. Narrated hadiths in Sunan Abi Dawud and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Narrated a hadith in Al-Tahtheeb and is majhool.

5) Al-Bara’a bin Aazib Al-Ansari:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet that narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – One of the asfiya’a. A companion of the Prophet and Ali bin Abi Talib.

6) Bishr bin Suhaim Al-Ghafari:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated hadiths in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Majhool.

7) Bilal bin Yahya Al-Absi:

Sunni view – Sadooq. Narrated hadiths in the four Sunan.

Shia view – N/A.

8) Jabir bin Samara:

Sunni view – Sahabi. Narrated hadith in the Saheehain and four Sunan.

Shia view – A companion of the Prophet, but majhool.

9) Jariya bin Qudama Al-Sa’adi:

Sunni view - Sahabi.

Shia view – A companion of the Prophet and Ali bin Abi Talib, but is majhool.

10) Ja’ada bin Hubaira Al-Makhzoomi:

Sunni view – Sahabi and nephew of Ali bin Abi Talib according to Al-Hafith Al-Mizzi.

Shia view – A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib, but no authentication has been attributed to him.

11) Al-Harith bin Suwaid Al-Taymi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the Saheehain and Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A.

12) Haritha bin Madrab Al-Koofi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – I found a “Haritha bin Masrab” in Mujam Al-Rijal and it states that he was one of the trustworthy companions of Ameer Al-Mu’mineen. However, the narration is weak.

13) Harmala:

Sunni view - Sadooq according to Ibn Hajar. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Al-Bukhari.

Shia view – N/A.

14) Hussain bin Qubaisa Al-Fazari:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A.

15) Hudhain bin Munthir Al-Raqashi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Muslim, Sunan Abi Dawud and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – One of the asfiya’a according to Al-Barqi.

Note: Shias refer to him as Hussain bin Munthir.

16) Haneen:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet (pbuh). Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A.

17) Khalifa bin Hussain bin Qais bin Aasim Al-Manqari:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi.

Shia view – N/A.

18) Rabi’I bin Harash:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib, according to Al-Barqi.

19) Riyah bin Al-Harith Al-Nakha’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqah.

Shia view – Majhool.

20) Zaadaan Abu Omar Al-Kindi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abu Dawud and Sunan Ibn Majah.

Shia view – One of the khawaas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

21) Zur bin Hubaish Al-Asadi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali in the six books with the exception of Al-Bukhari.

Shia view – A close companion of Ali bin Abi Talib. Ibn Tawoos narrates that he was a thiqah but the narration is weak.

22) Ziyad bin Hadeer Al-Asadi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – N/A.

23) Zaid bin Al-Arqam Al-Ansari:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib. He narrates a single narration of the Prophet in Al-Kafi.

24) Zaid bin Wahb Al-Jahani:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the Saheehain and Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Tirmithi.

Shia view – Majhool.

25) Zaid bin Yathba’a Al-Hamadani:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi

Shia view – N/A.

26) Al-Sa’ib:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – N/A.

27) Sa’eed bin Hayyan:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi.

Shia view – N/A.

28) Sa’eed bin Al-Musayab:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi, Al-Nasa’ee and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Majhool.

29) Sa’eed bin Wahab Al-Hamadaani:

Sunni view – Thiqah.

Shia view – A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib. Majhool.

30) Safeena:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

31) Suwaid bin Ghafala Al-Ju’fi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the Saheehain, Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Narrated the hadiths of Ali bin Abi Talib in Tafseer Al-Qummi. One of his awliya according to Al-Barqi.

32) Shateer bin Shakl bin Hameed Al-Absi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Muslim and Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – One of the khawaas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

33) Shuraih bin Al-Harith Al-Qaadi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Narrated the hadiths of Ali bin Abi Talib.

34) Shuraih bin Al-Nu’maan Al-Saandi:

Sunni view – Sadooq. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the Sunan.

Shia view – Majhool.

35) Shuraih bin Hani’I Al-Harthi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Muslim, Sunan Al-Nasa’ee and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Majhool.

36) Shareek bin Hanbal Al-Absi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A.

37) Shaqeeq bin Salama Al-Asadi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Majhool.

38) Sa’sa’a bin Sawhaan Al-Abdi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – One of the khawaas of Ali.

39) Suhaib bin Sinaan Al-Rumi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – A bad servant that cried on Omar. (?!)

40) Tariq bin Asheem Al-Ashja’ee:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

41) Tariq bin Shihab Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

42) Aabis bin Rabee’a Al-Nakha’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Majhool.

43) Aasim bin Dhamara Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Sadooq. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the four Sunan.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

44) Aasim bin Amr Al-Hijazi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A.

45) Amer bin Sharaheel Al-Sha’abi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Khabeeth fajir kathaab.

46) Abdullah bin Abi Ahmed Al-Qurashi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – N/A

47) Abdullah bin Tha’laba Al-Madani:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

48) Abdullah bin Ja’far bin Abi Talib:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books with the exception of Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – He was in a high position and Ali bin Abi Talib guarded him as if he was one of his sons. He narrated a narration in Al-Tahtheeb and another in Al-Khisaal.

49) Abdullah bin Al-Harith bin Nawfal Al-Qurashi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Majhool.

50) Abdullah bin Haneen Al-Qurashi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books with the exception of Saheeh Al-Bukhari.

Shia view – N/A.

51) Abdullah bin Al-Zubair bin Al-Awaam:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

52) Abdullah bin Zurair Al-Ghafqi:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud, Al-Nasa’ee and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – N/A.

53) Abdullah bin Salama Al-Muradi:

Sunni view – Sadooq taghayara hufthahu according to Ibn Hajar and suwailah according to Al-Thahabi. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the four Sunan.

Shia view – N/A.

54) Abdullah bin Shadaad Al-Had:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books with the exception of Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

55) Abdullah bin Omar bin Al-Khattab:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – There have been negative reports about him.

56) Abdullah bin Mu’qil bin Muqrin:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Al-Bukhari.

Shia view – N/A.

57) Abdullah bin Nafi’I Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Sadooq. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – N/A

58) Abdullah bin Abi Huthail Al-Inzi:

Sunni view – Thiqah.

Shia view – N/A.

59) Abd Khair bin Yazeed Al-Hamadani:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the four Sunan.

Shia view – Majhool.

60) Abdul-Rahman bin Abzi Al-Khuza’ee:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – N/A

61) Abdul-Rahman bin Harith bin Hammam Al-Makhzoomi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – N/A.

62) Abdul-Rahman bin Abi Layla Al-Ansaari:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – He was an loyal to Ali bin Abi Talib according to a narration in Al-Kishi.

63) Abdul-Mutalib bin Rabee’a Al-Qurashi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

64) Ubaidullah bin Abi Rafi’I

Sunni view – Thiqah. A writer of Ali bin Abi Talib, narrated his hadith in the six books.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

65) Ubaid bin Umair Al-Laithi:

Sunni view – Thiqah.

Shia view – N/A.

66) Ubaida bin Amr Al-Salmaani:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – One of the awliya’a of Ali bin Abi Talib. Al-Khoei also mentions that he was considered a thiqah by Ibn Hajar in his Taqreeb.

67) Ujair bin Abd Yazeed Al-Matlabi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – N/A.

68) Ikrimah:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Al-Kishi narrates a hadith that points to his weakness.

69) Ilqima bin Qais Al-Nakha’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqah.

Shia view – One of the thiqaat that was associated with Ali bin Abi Talib.

70) Ali bin Rabee’a Al-Walbee:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the four Sunan with the exception of Ibn Majah.

Shia view – A worshipper and a companion of Ali bin Abi Talib.

71) Amara bin Ruwayba Al-Thaqafi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

72) Omar bin Ali bin Abi Talib:

Sunni view – The son of Ali bin Abi Talib, narrated his hadith in the four Sunan.

Shia view – There is no evidence for his trustworthiness according to Al-Khoei.

73) Amr bin Huraith Al-Makhzoomi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – An enemy of Allah according to Al-Barqi.

74) Umair bin Sa’eed Al-Nakha’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the Saheehain, Sunan Abi Dawud and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – Majhool.

Note: He is known as Umair bin Sa’ad amongst Shias.

75) Qais bin Abi Hazim:

Sunni view – Thiqah.

Shia view – N/A.

76) Qais bin Abbad Al-Dab’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia – Mamdooh.

Note: I am assuming that this is Qais bin Abbad Al-Bakri.

77) Karaz Al-Taymi:

Sunni view – Thiqah.

Shia view – N/A.

78) Kulaib bin Shihab Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Sadooq.

Shia view – A companion of Ali bin Abi Talib.

79) Malik bin Aws Al-Madani:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Muslim and the four Sunan with the exception Ibn Majah.

Shia view - N/A

80) Malik bin Al-Harith Al-Nakha’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqa according to Ibn Hibban and Al-Ajali. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – One of the closest companions to Ali bin Abi Talib.

81) Mohammed bin Ali bin Abi Talib:

Sunni view - A son of Ali, known as Ibn Al-Hanafiya. Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of his father in the six books.

Shia view – An authentic hadith in Al-Kafi proves his belief in the Imamah of his father.

82) Masrooq bin Al-Ajda’a Al-Hamadani:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A.

83) Mas’ood bin Al-Hakam Al-Ansaari:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books with the exception of Saheh Al-Bukhari.

Shia view – N/A.

84) Muslim bin Natheer Al-Sa’adi:

Sunni view – Maqbool according to Ibn Hajar, but salih according to Al-Thahabi.

Shia view – N/A

85) Mutrif bin Abdullah Al-Basri:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Muslim.

Shia view – N/A

86) Najiya bin Ka’ab Al-Asadi:

Sunni view – Thiqah according to Ibn Hajar, however, he seems to be more of a sadooq due to the opinions of other scholars.

Shia view – N/A

87) Nafi’ bin Jubair Al-Madani:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi.

Shia view – N/A

88) Al-Nazal bin Subura Al-Hilali:

Sunni view – Thiqah. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Sunan Abu Dawud, Al-Nasa’ee and Ibn Majah.

Shia view – N/A

89) Hani’, the mawla of Ali bin Abi Talib:

Sunni view – La ba’as bihi. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the four Sunan.

Shia view – N/A

90) Wahb bin Al-Ajda’a Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Majhool.

91) Yahya bin Ya’mar Al-Basri:

Sunni view – Thiqa.

Shia view – N/A

92) Yazeed bin Shareek Al-Taymi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books with the exception of Ibn Majah.

Shia view – N/A

93) Ya’ala bin Murra Al-Thaqafi:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Majhool.

94) Abu Ishaaq (Amr bin Abdullah) Al-Subai’ee:

Sunni view – Thiqa ikhtalata fee akhir umirihi. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud. However, there is a difference of opinion whether he really heard from him.

Shia view – Majhool.

95) Abu Aswad (Thalim bin Amr) Al-Du’ali:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the Sunan with the exception of Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Majhool.

96) Abu Umamah (Sada bin Ajlaan) Al-Bahilee:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Al-Khoei states that he seems to be hasan.

97) Abu Burdah (Amer bin Abdullah) Al-Ash’ari:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – N/A

98) Abu Bakr (Amr bin Abdullah) Al-Ash’ari:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – N/A

99) Abu Juhaifa (Wahb bin Abdullah) Al-Sawani:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

100) Abu Hasaan (Muslim bin Abdullah) Al-A’araj Al-Basri:

Sunni view – Sadooq. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A

101) Akhdar/Al-Nu’aman (Abu Rashid) Al-Habrani:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Ibn Majah.

Shia view – N/A

102) Umraan bin Malhaan (Abu Raja’a) Al-Atarudi:

Sunni view – Thiqa.

Shia view – Majhool.

103) Masud bin Malik (Abi Ruzain) Al-Hashimi:

Sunni view – Thiqa.

Shia view – Majhool.

104) Huthaifa bin Usaid (Abu Sareeha) Al-Ghafari:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – A companion of the Prophet.

105) Sa’ad bin Malik (Abu Sa’eed) Al-Khudari:

Sunni view - A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – One of the asfiya’a.

106) Abdul-Rahman bin Qais (Abu Salih) Al-Hanafi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A

107) Sa’eed bin Abdul-Rahman (Abu Salih) Al-Ghafari:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – N/A

108) Hussain bin Jundub (Abu Thubyaan) Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Majhool.

109) Abdul-Rahman bin Aseela (Abu Abdullah) Al-Sanabhi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – N/A

110) Abdullah bin Habeeb (Abu Abdul-Rahman) Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the six books.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

111) Sa’ad bin Ubaid (Abu Ubaid) Al-Madani:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in the Saheehain and Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – N/A

112) Abdul-Rahman bin Mil (Abu Uthman) Al-Nahdi:

Sunni view – Thiqa.

Shia view – N/A

113) Sa’eed bin Allaqa (Abu Fakhita) Al-Hashimi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Tirmithi.

Shia view – One of the khawas of Ali bin Abi Talib.

Note: He is known as Sa’eed bin Jahman among Shias.

114) Qais (Abu Mariam) Al-Thaqafi:

Sunni view – Thiqa according to Al-Nasa’ee and Al-Thahabi. Majhool according to Ibn Hajar. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – Majhool.

115) Abdullah bin Sakhbara (Abu Ma’mar) Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view – Majhool.

116) Abdulla bin Qais (Abu Musa) Al-Ash’ari:

Sunni view – A companion of the Prophet.

Shia view – Yakfeehi khizyan khal’hi Ameer Al-Mu’mineen min al-khilafa.

117) Amr bin Sharahbeel (Abu Maysara) Al-Hamadani:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud and Al-Nasa’ee.

Shia view –N/A

118) Al-Munthir bin Malik (Abu Nadhira) Al-Basri:

Sunni view – Thiqa.

Shia view – Majhool.

119) Hayyan bin Hussain (Abu Hayyaj) Al-Kufi:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Saheeh Muslim and the Sunan with the exception of Ibn Majah.

Shia view – N/A

120) Abbad bin Naseer (Abu Al-Wudh’i) Al-Sahtani:

Sunni view – Thiqa. Narrated the hadith of Ali bin Abi Talib in Sunan Abi Dawud.

Shia view – N/A

121) Mu’atha bin Abdullah Al-Adawiya:

Sunni view – Thiqa.

Shia view – N/A

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes: Most of my Sunni information comes from Tahtheebul Kamal by Al-Mizzi and Tahtheebul Tahtheeb by Ibn Hajar. I didn't include narrators that narrated mursal narrations. I also didn't include narrators that are considered to be maqbool by Ibn Hajar due to the tawtheeq of Ibn Hibban, since that would perhaps add an extra one hundred narrators that I wasn't all that confident about. Keep in mind that most of these narrators are only found in the six books. I didn't include anything from Musnad Imam Ahmad, however, I'm thinking of updating this list with just that later on. I have arrived at a few conclusions due to my search, however, I'm more interested in some feedback before I go on. Also, keep in mind that those that are considered to be companions of the Prophet (pbuh) by Ahlul Sunnah are considered to be thiqaat, however, this isn't the case with Shias. Companionship to the Prophet (pbuh) or Ali (raa) isn't sufficient for tawtheeq or tahseen.

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Salam

Companionship to the Prophet (pbuh) or Ali (raa) isn't sufficient for tawtheeq or tahseen.

Can you tell me which of theme were of the poor Muhajareen kicked out of their homes..

I think we can assume at least those people are Thiqah by Quran and don't need Tawthiq from scholars regarding that.

wa salam

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Can you tell me which of theme were of the poor Muhajareen kicked out of their homes..

I think we can assume at least those people are Thiqah by Quran and don't need Tawthiq from scholars regarding that.

I agree. However, this isn't about our opinions. This is about Sunni views vs Shia views, and they represent our sects much better than either of us.

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I agree. However, this isn't about our opinions. This is about Sunni views vs Shia views, and they represent our sects much better than either of us.

Salam

Can you tell me anyways, I want to know how much of these sunni rely on. I guess maybe make a new thread but I think it's related to this whole issue anyways (ie. if they were not the main ones relied on, then why not?).

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Can you tell me anyways, I want to know how much of these sunni rely on. I guess maybe make a new thread but I think it's related to this whole issue anyways (ie. if they were not the main ones relied on, then why not?).

I didn't get your question. Please rephrase it.

Are you asking, "Which of these narrators that have narrated the hadith of Ali are accepted by Sunni scholars?" If so, then are you talking about the first or second list?

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I didn't get your question. Please rephrase it.

Are you asking, "Which of these narrators that have narrated the hadith of Ali are accepted by Sunni scholars?" If so, then are you talking about the first or second list?

Salam

I want to know how many narrators (in fact forget the list for just Ali (as) but include narrators of the Nabi (pbuh)) are known to be of the Poor Muhajareen that were forced out of their homes. Not simply "companion" or did baya at the hudaifa thing.

If it's hard for you to find out, I understand if you don't. But I think it relates to this topic and seeing if they are the bulk of "Sahabas" narrated from or not, might be important. Also then how many Sahih narrations come from them. If you have more Sahih hadiths to a person whom converted for two years (Abu Huraira) then all of poor Muhajareen whom were forced out of their homes, this begs some questions.

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If you have more Sahih hadiths to a person whom converted for two years (Abu Huraira) then all of poor Muhajareen whom were forced out of their homes, this begs some questions.

You can rest assured that most of what Abu Huraira narrates has been narrated by another Sahabi. Narrations in which he is the sole Sahabi that narrates the hadith is very rare. I suggest you make a new thread for this if you'd like to test the theory. Try quoting a random set of twenty Abu Huraira hadiths and I'll look up how many are also attributed to other Sahabis.

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You can rest assured that most of what Abu Huraira narrates has been narrated by another Sahabi. Narrations in which he is the sole Sahabi that narrates the hadith is very rare. I suggest you make a new thread for this if you'd like to test the theory. Try quoting a random set of twenty Abu Huraira hadiths and I'll look up how many are also attributed to other Sahabis.

Salam

It may be the case, you know better, but this not the point. And I am not so interested how many "Sahabis" narrate the same things so much of whether the poor of the Muhajareen whom were kicked out of their homes have narrated the same thing. What I what to know is the following:

how much they have narrated (Sahih traditions) (ie. the poor of the muhajareen whom were forced out of their homes) ?

How much of them are narrators (in Sahih traditions) ? (ie. the poor of the Muhajareen whom were forced out of their home)

I think these are crucial questions.

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how much they have narrated (Sahih traditions) (ie. the poor of the muhajareen whom were forced out of their homes) ?

How much of them are narrators (in Sahih traditions) ? (ie. the poor of the Muhajareen whom were forced out of their home)

I think these are crucial questions.

I agree these are good questions, but I don't believe that this is all that related to the thread. This question should be asked Shias as well though.

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I agree these are good questions, but I don't believe that this is all that related to the thread. This question should be asked Shias as well though.

We barely narrated from Imam Hassan (as), what then you expect of narating from companions? Most of what we got comes from Imam Jaffar (as), then Imam Baqir (as).

There are better questions for Shias my friend then this, questions that I have seen very illogical answers (specially with the the usool books collection thing (I forget the huge number something times 10 000 I think?) and then picking from it and then have these small collections from it, but ofcourse full non scattered type inheritance was not possible cause of "prosecution", we can collect scattered sayings tons from fabricators but not write down everything one learned from an Imam (as) (and it being passed down like that so we left with many of these chains with beautiful unscattered wisdom untained with garbage)?).

wa salam

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  • Banned

At least for the case of Hanafi Sunnis, they have rigorously authenticed ahadith as proof detailing the exact form of the adhan and the iqama, from none other than Imam 'Ali karamallahu wajjhu himself and numerous of his students and companions including Sayyidna Bilal radiallahu anhu, mostly 'Iraqis and not under the umayyads. See Fath al-Qadir of Imam ibn Humam. Sunnis also deny the reason that has been given for beginning tarawih,

Sunnis do not believe Imam Ali is a "normal" person. Sunnis will take an offence to that expression. A Sunni, who loves the Ahl al-Bayt will take such an expression as an insult against Mawla Ka'inaat karamallahu wajhu, and then an insult towards himself and all of Islam. Most of us common men are not even normal men. There are so many meanings we can ascribe to the word "normal". A better expression would be he is a man unlike all others after the Prophets and Messengers, an extra-ordinary man, whose state and maqam we normal men cannot comprehend. Just imagine, the blessed rays from the blessed eyes of the Prophet alaihisaalam continuously on Mawla's heart. How could then such a man be a "normal" man. No way.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

As we know, there are a number of differences in fiqh, aqeeda, and a number of other issues between Sunnis and Shia (as well as a number of similarities).

The Shia claim to largely get their Sunnah from the 12 Imams (as) going through Imam Ali (as). Though, there are some instances of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) quoting Jabir ibn Abdullah (ra), one of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh)

And the Sunnis claim to largely get their Sunnah from the Companions.

However, when examining Sunni and Shia ahadith we find a "Sunni Imam Ali" and a "Shia Imam Ali", where the Imam is quoted as saying contradictory things. In Sunni books, he largely says things that conform to the Sunni school of thought and in Shia books he largely says things that conform to the Shia school of thought. Same thing with Jabir bin Abdullah (ra), Ammar bin Yassir (ra), and a number of other Shias.

For example, in Sunni books, the Imam (as) folds his hands during prayer, forbids muta, and is a normal person. In the Shia books, he is the opposite.

Also, what the Imam (as)is quoted as saying in Sunni books largely conforms with what the other Companions are quoted as saying.

So, some questions I have:

For the Sunnis, what do attribute the differences to?

and for the Shias, do you know of any in-depth research that discusses depth and scope of the Umayyid's involvement in the tinkering of the Sunnah?

I have been very interested in researching my question to the Shias.

ahadith, historical books, etc are all welcome.

Inshallah we can have an interesting discussion.

wa salam

The answer is very simple to your question. It's the chain of transmission. There are two chains of transmissions. The sunni one and the shia one. People like us didn't meet Ali or Jabir bin Abdullah. We have received information passed down to us generation after generation. And the two chains were split because of ethnic, political and religious differences. Shias and sunnis are different on all these 3 grounds, not just religious aspect. Shias are shias because they didn't belong to Madinah or Makkah. If you read the history of Christianity, you will find almost the same reasons of the split of Christians into different sects.

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Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman banned hadith so that the people would forget. Then when Mu'awiya took over, he first ordered imams to curse Imam Ali (as) in every khutba. Later he tried a different strategy, giving rewards to people who could fabricate pleasant sounding hadith about Uthman. After that, he started paying people to write down all sorts of things about the first 4 Caliphs, but when it came to Ali (as) for every hadith regarding him they had to fabricate something contradictory.

Information like the above was passed down to shias through 'shia chain of transmission', as I said, which is quite different from the sunni transmission. The shia chain is largely Persian, Non-Arab, different from the sunni chain ethnically, politically and on sectarian basis.

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