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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is it halal to threaten to burn down a house....

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And it is rather childish to accuse the Sunnis of being among the Nawasib.

You state that we over use emotions, whereas it is you who gets all emotional whenever a fact is brought to light about the caliphs or the wrong actions against the Ahlul Bayt (as). What makes you think that we consider you guys "nawasib"?

Edited by abbas110
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I'll tell you what he had in in his mind, the Prophet said " Fatima (as) is part of me; whoever hurts her hurts me " because your masoom imam ( Ali ) angered his wife and decided to marry the daughter

As I said previously, there are other hadiths that go against this narration regarding of the authenticity of the chain. This is because Aslam wasn't around during this incident, so there is room for

Of course it doesn't, but that's not the point here. There are thousands of muslims who have committed grave sins, who are nonetheless still muslims, but their credibility takes a massive blow and th

7

Don't look forward to becoming a sunni. Instead look forward to becoming a better Muslim. As for Umar (ra) he never claimed he was a calipah from Allah (swt). Also, for Imam Ali (as) to be a calipah he needed the support of a strong majority. Unfortunately, he didn't have that support, so his calipate was delayed. He got military support for Abi Suyfan but support was illegitimate.

so your saying the majority of companions were wrong? what happened to ' my ummah will never agree on something wrong'

did abu bakr offer ali to be kalifat instead?

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However, the reality is the Ahlul Bayt have never cursed him or considered him outside the fold of Islam.

We have an entirely opposite view on this subject.

How would you know that Ahlul'bayt (as) never cursed `Umar? We are the ones who narrated the Ahadith of Ahlul'bayt (as), not the Ahlus'sunnah. It's more probable that you have an incomplete picture of who Ahlul'bayt (as) were since your Ahadith are not from them. And what little you do have from them is not even taken seriously. Ibn Taymiyya in Minhaj ul-Sunna, volume 7, page 529 even claims:

فليس في الأئمة الأربعة و لا غيرهم من أئمة الفقهاء من يرجع إليه في فقهه

"None of the Four Imams (Abu Hanifa, Shafi`i, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Malik ibn Anas) and none of the other Imams of Fiqh referred to him (`Ali (as)) in matters of Fiqh."

So I don't find it very convincing that your sources would really indicate much from Ahlul'bayt (as), especially since even your most revered collections of Hadith contain little from them - in fact, barely enough to even really know what they stood for by their own testimony. Instead, you should refer to our books for Ahadith from Ahlul'bayt (as). And then you will realize that the picture is painted quite different from our sources.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri
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You can ask your own brother who had the username of Wasil bin Ata about this matter. He says all those cursing ahadith are weak. He even cursed those shias who believed in such ahadith.

I recall on forum of islam when you had trouble answering some question he was there to back you up.

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You can ask your own brother who had the username of Wasil bin Ata about this matter. He says all those cursing ahadith are weak. He even cursed those shias who believed in such ahadith.

I recall on forum of islam when you had trouble answering some question he was there to back you up.

??

Who is Wasil ibn Ata?

And no, actually Ziyaarat `Ashura is the greatest proof of this. It is accepted unanimously by the great Maraaja' as being fully authentic and one of the great treasures from Allah that we have. I have been asking all the offices, and the reply is the same everytime. I recently got this in my inbox today:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

الجواب: زيارة عاشوراء من حيث السند هو حديث قدسي نزل به جبرئيل الامين من عند الله تعالى على الرسول الكريم، واللعن فيه مطابق للقرآن الحكيم حيث لعن من آذى الله في رسوله أو آذى رسوله في اهل بيته بقول الله سبحانه: «ان الذين يؤذون الله ورسوله لعنهم الله في الدنيا والآخرة وأعد لهم عذاباً مهيناً» الاحزاب/57 فينبغي ارشاده الى ذلك وفي ارشاده بالحكمة والموعظة الحسنة أجر كبير.

ملاحظة: جميع الاجابات صادرة من قبل مكتب المرجع الديني سماحة آية الله العظمى السيد صادق الشيرازي دام ظله.

مكتب الإمام الشيرازي ـ قم المقدسة

In this Ziyaarat, you very well know what Allah says about Abu Bak'r, `Umar, and `Uthman, and the others like Mu`awiya.

And no, the other Ahadith are not weak, because these people who weaken them are Dha'eef in Rijal themselves. How do they have the ability to authenticate and weaken Ahadith? Don't make me laugh.

Here is a Hadith Sahih by even their standards:

حدثنا محمد بن عيسى عن يونس عن عبدالصمد عن ابى جعفر عليه السلام قال سمعته يقول ان من ورآء هذه اربعين عين شمس ما بين شمس إلى شمس اربعون عاما فيها خلق كثير ما يعلمون ان الله خلق آدم اولم يخلقه وان من وراء قمركم هذا اربعين قمرا مابين قمر إلى قمر مسيرة اربعين يوما فيها خلق كثير مايعلمون ان الله خلق آدم اولم يخلقه قد الهموا كما الهمت النحل لعنة الاول والثانى في كل وقت من الاوقات وقد وكل بهم ملائكة متى مالم يلعنوها عذبوا

- كتاب بصائر الدرجات للصفار 1/506

9. From Muhammad ibn 'Isa ibn 'Ubaid from Yunus from 'Abd us-Samad from Abu Ja'far (a.s.). He ('Abd us-Samad) said: "I heard Abu Ja'far (a.s.) saying that: 'Behind this sun are forty such suns, and what is between a sun to another sun is forty years. Over there are many creations who do not know whether or not Allah created Adam (a.s.). And behind this moon of yours are forty such moons, and what is between a moon to another moon is forty days. Over there are many creations who do not know whether or not Allah created Adam (a.s.). They have been inspired, just like the Bee has been inspired, to curse the first and the second, all the time. And with them are Angels, who torture them when they do not curse the two."

Basaa'er ud-Darajaat of Saffaar (r.a.) 1/506

See here: http://www.u-of-islam.net/uofislam/maktaba/Hadith/Bsaer/a506.htm

Then we have two narrations from al-Rawdat min al-Kafi from Imam Baqir (as) where he curses Abu Bak'r and `Umar. Though they are not Sahih al-Isnaad, they are reliable chains according to Al-Majlisi in Miraat ul-`Uqool and by what is mentioned by Al-Khoe'i in Mu`jam about the primary problematic narrator (Sadeer ibn Hakeem), and in these two reports Imam Baqir (as), after mentioning them with disgust and narrating their misdeeds, invokes the curse of Allah, the Angels, and all of mankind upon the two. Not to mention there is an absolute consensus mentioned by Sheikh Tusi (ra) that `Umar killed Fatima (as). So don't teach me what our madhab believes in.

Anyway, back to the point - why the defense of `Umar by your Sunni brothers against the clear reality that he simply has a lack of Akhlaaq? Is this really a man that is considered a Khalifatullah by Ahlul'sunnah? You shouldn't insult your own intelligence by accepting this.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri
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You sure you don't know him ?

I've seen you guys work together on other forums like forum of Islam and yanabi.com.

Hmm, he seems familiar. But I don't think I've ever been on yanabi.com. Is this the same as the user Amilcar? If so, then yes I know him.

But this view is not accepted by our scholars... I don't know how you can trust a majhool person on the internet about our madhab rather than the Mujtahideen...

- Mansab

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Its simple. We love those people who you consider to be the enemies of ahlul bayt.

Well, its a free world and you are welcome to love whoever you like but when you call yourself a Muslim, do you not love the group more whose love is made obligatory by Allah (swt) himself and is called the wage of the mission of the whole risalat?

Edited by abbas110
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Anyway, back to the point - why the defense of `Umar by your Sunni brothers against the clear reality that he simply has a lack of Akhlaaq? Is this really a man that is considered a Khalifatullah by Ahlul'sunnah? You shouldn't insult your own intelligence by accepting this.

- Mansab

The reason is a grave sin does not make you a disbeliever.

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So according to that, they won't die as kafirs, but they'll die as rebels who are astray (`ala dalaal, `aasiyan)? So again, what's to happen to all those Sunnis living in kafir countries? Or those living under the governance of us rafidis?

Not necessarily either. As you are aware we don't believe that kuffar rulers are entitled to a bay'ah. All they are entitled to is for the Muslim to abide by the rules of their country.

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Not necessarily either. As you are aware we don't believe that kuffar rulers are entitled to a bay'ah. All they are entitled to is for the Muslim to abide by the rules of their country.

So, as long as they recognise the king of Bahrain as their Imam, they're OK, right?

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The reason is a grave sin does not make you a disbeliever.

Of course it doesn't, but that's not the point here. There are thousands of muslims who have committed grave sins, who are nonetheless still muslims, but their credibility takes a massive blow and they wouldn't be fit to run a small religious group let alone lead the whole ummah. This is simply common sense.

Small mistakes here and there are understandable, a grave sin would not make you a disbeliever but certainly deem you not fit to be trusted by the whole of muslim ummah 1400 years down the road, especially given the political chaos that ensued right after the prophets death.

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the sunnis (as usual) have completely avoided the question that the OP asked. he didnt ask whether the sanad was strong, he didnt ask anything about anyone. all he asked was whether its halal and haram.

the answer, is, of course it is haram, and tyrannical, and injust. "and our covenant does not include the unjust". lanat upon the tyrants.

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Of course it doesn't, but that's not the point here. There are thousands of muslims who have committed grave sins, who are nonetheless still muslims, but their credibility takes a massive blow and they wouldn't be fit to run a small religious group let alone lead the whole ummah. This is simply common sense.

Small mistakes here and there are understandable, a grave sin would not make you a disbeliever but certainly deem you not fit to be trusted by the whole of muslim ummah 1400 years down the road, especially given the political chaos that ensued right after the prophets death.

All I can say is the 12rs really have trouble differentiating between Umar (ra) and the Ummavi rulers like Muawiyah and Yazid. This is why I can never be a 12r. Also, in the sources the Mahdi needs only 313 supporters to start his mission. Yet out of 200 million Imamis shias those 313 are still not found after 1000 years. This really makes me wonder why this sect is pointing fingers at others.

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All I can say is the 12rs really have trouble differentiating between Umar (ra) and the Ummavi rulers like Muawiyah and Yazid. This is why I can never be a 12r. Also, in the sources the Mahdi needs only 313 supporters to start his mission. Yet out of 200 million Imamis shias those 313 are still not found after 1000 years. This really makes me wonder why this sect is pointing fingers at others.

lol, when you mention 313 and you compare with today's number of muslims...you really ask yourself who are those 313, where are they coming from and what their beliefs are. :)

truth will at first be represented by 313+Mahdi compared to the billions of muslims...quite impressive isn't it.

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I wonder who the Prophet (saww) had in his mind when he said that "Fatima (as) is part of me; whoever hurts her hurts me. And whoever hurts me angers Allah (swt)".

I'll tell you what he had in in his mind, the Prophet said " Fatima (as) is part of me; whoever hurts her hurts me " because your masoom imam ( Ali ) angered his wife and decided to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl !!

Edited by Tawazun
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the sunnis (as usual) have completely avoided the question that the OP asked. he didnt ask whether the sanad was strong, he didnt ask anything about anyone. all he asked was whether its halal and haram.

the answer, is, of course it is haram, and tyrannical, and injust. "and our covenant does not include the unjust". lanat upon the tyrants.

Is it halal to threat to burn down a house full of people !?

Yes it's pure political act

Is it halal to burn down a house full of people ??

No its not accepted, because your endangering the lives of inhabitants

Is it Halal for husband to see his wife gets beat up by foreign men without even trying to defend her ?

In Shiaism : Yes ..Ali did do anything ..so its ok

In Sunni Islam: No ..

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All I can say is the 12rs really have trouble differentiating between Umar (ra) and the Ummavi rulers like Muawiyah and Yazid. This is why I can never be a 12r. Also, in the sources the Mahdi needs only 313 supporters to start his mission. Yet out of 200 million Imamis shias those 313 are still not found after 1000 years. This really makes me wonder why this sect is pointing fingers at others.

Once more, you didn't answer the question ...

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All I can say is the 12rs really have trouble differentiating between Umar (ra) and the Ummavi rulers like Muawiyah and Yazid. This is why I can never be a 12r. Also, in the sources the Mahdi needs only 313 supporters to start his mission. Yet out of 200 million Imamis shias those 313 are still not found after 1000 years. This really makes me wonder why this sect is pointing fingers at others.

Quit trying to turn this whole thing around. This act is getting rather played out now. Let forget Kufr and Sin for a minute and focus on the issue

1) A threat like this showed his disrespect for Ahlulbayt especially towards Fatima (as). Since you are such a lover of Ahlulbayt i dont think i need to remind you of various hadith in regards to her.

2) A man like this is not fit to lead the ummah. Period.

Now for the rest like Why Ali didnt do anything etc etc.. Leave that for later, First either agree with this event of history or deny it.

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Once more, you didn't answer the question ...

I did.

However, you shias are accusing me of nisabism.

Quit trying to turn this whole thing around. This act is getting rather played out now. Let forget Kufr and Sin for a minute and focus on the issue

1) A threat like this showed his disrespect for Ahlulbayt especially towards Fatima (as). Since you are such a lover of Ahlulbayt i dont think i need to remind you of various hadith in regards to her.

2) A man like this is not fit to lead the ummah. Period.

Now for the rest like Why Ali didnt do anything etc etc.. Leave that for later, First either agree with this event of history or deny it.

Abu Sufyan is in agreement with you. He was even willing to support Imam Ali (as). However, the Imam (as) refused.

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All I can say is the 12rs really have trouble differentiating between Umar (ra) and the Ummavi rulers like Muawiyah and Yazid. This is why I can never be a 12r. Also, in the sources the Mahdi needs only 313 supporters to start his mission. Yet out of 200 million Imamis shias those 313 are still not found after 1000 years. This really makes me wonder why this sect is pointing fingers at others.

??????????????????????????????????

Listen homeslice, forget the 12er shias for a moment, what does that have to do with anything? You are purposely ignoring the question.

I am asking you a simple question

Is someone who committed such a pathetic and socially/morally unacceptable grave sin that frankly my own father would dare never commit against his worse enemies let alone bibi Fatima of all people fit to LEAD ALL OF THE MUSLIM UMMAH?

You know the answer to this question, your heart and your logic is telling you something that your stubbornness wont concede.

Why should we, 1400 years down the road follow the teachings of men with such severe character flaws when we have the prophets own family, who have no such shortcomings associated with them based on both sunni and ahia historical texts?

Again, commonsense would tell you that the prophets own family is the best source of his teachings and guidance ESPECIALLY considering the serious amount of uncertainty with respects to the character of many of his companions.

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I did answer it. In fact you are ignoring my answer.

First of all that doesnt in ANYWAY answer the question posed.

Secondly, If Imam Ali told him to save himself rather than letting him die in the Persian war, well that speaks highly of Imam Ali's character and has little to do with Umar's.

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All I can say is the 12rs really have trouble differentiating between Umar (ra) and the Ummavi rulers like Muawiyah and Yazid. This is why I can never be a 12r. Also, in the sources the Mahdi needs only 313 supporters to start his mission. Yet out of 200 million Imamis shias those 313 are still not found after 1000 years. This really makes me wonder why this sect is pointing fingers at others.

those 313 are the 313 in charge of his army i.e, each of them will control their own army, so your understanding is flawed here. shias dont believe that only 313 will rise, but that those 313 will be the best of the best.

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I never made such statements. This is only your assumption. The statement I made is that the 12rs shias are not infallible nor at they have such high ranks where they are sure that they are the legitimate opposition the imams (as) need(ed) to defeat the main opposition. For example in this clip below says that Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) could not even find 17 shias in his life time.

Does this mean the 12rs shias did not exist at the time ? No it doesn't mean that.

Edited by Abdaal
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