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Alpha_Female

Bashed for being too picky

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And yes, I do intend to write it down on the marriage contract that I don't want to share my husband...I do realize that he'll be able to marry others if I don't. But hopefully he'll not be the type of guy who considers other women anyway...inshallah.

Alakum salam,

Just to point out something (maybe I'm misunderstanding you) just so you're clear on it. You DO have right to specify that your husband cannot marry any other women while he is married to you and he must follow this as part of the marriage contract. If he marries another women (despite this being specified) while married to you then the contract is voided. If this is what you want, I would just make sure that this is actually written (not just spoken) in the marriage contract and that you discuss the implications of this with your local Imam (Islamic scholar) before you make the final decision.

May Allah (s.w.a.) bless you with the best husband, and may your future marriage be a blissful one that leads you both closer to Allah (s.w.a.)

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Why do anything in life if we trust that Allah will make everything happen? Does any effort put forth in life constitute distrust of Allah? Certainly not. Allah does not say to abandon logic and reason when he says to trust him. It is very logical to want a financially stable husband, since that is his Islamic duty.

I did not say that we should put no efforts into earning a living. It is wajib for a man to strive to earn a living. Distrust in Allah is when you don't admit that your sustenance is guaranteed with effort.

I have no disagreement with anyone wanting a husband that they find to be intelligent, attractive, kind etc... because these need to be established before you marry and unlike sustenance they are not guaranteed.

It is not me who is saying that sustenance is guaranteed. It is the representatives of Islam. Why dont you quote those ahadith and provide your own understanding of them?

Btw in many non Islamic cultures, men look for wealthy women to marry. Even here in the west some men look for a woman who earns good money. which of course is not islamic.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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My main requirements for a guy (besides Muslimness) is that he's intelligent, educated (schoolwise), stable and independant (financially), spontaneous, funny, interesting, loving and kind, loyal, takes me seriously - aaand has NO past with women; no emotional or sexual baggage whatsoever. I don't have any of that myself, and I'm too jealous of a person to deal with a man who has it, so I feel like it isn't at all an unfair requirement to make. But what do you think? AM I being unrealistic?

I think you aren't too picky and I agree that a man should have all those qualities except one which, according to me, isn't that important. If you are gonna marry young, then you cannot expect the guy to be in a very good financial position. Most of the times, men get into a good financial position after working for sometime and someone who is just out of uni cannot be expected to have loads of money.

Apart from that, I think you are pretty much right on.

And I completely agree with you that a girl with no sexual past deserves a man who doesn't have a past either. There are many non-virgins for the men who aren't virgins themselves and they are better suited for each other.

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Salaaam,

A few things....

First & Foremost Allah (swt) is Master of all that is big & small.....

1. Allah (swt) 3aQuli Shaian Qadeer.....(has power over all things)

He (swt) can give you whatever you desire; you just need to ask.

Many people think your requirements are impossible?! With patience, pray

& most of all FAITH IN Allah (SWT) it is more than possible.

2. You must change your belief system.

3. Consider the source when receiving advice from people.

4. Always pray; every moment you have pray to Allah (swt) with the intention of wanting a

successful marriage & most of all FisabAllah. It is our duty that we create good marriages and children.

5. Allah (swt) created you with a unique mind, personality, etc...he will only match you with someone of

common attributes. He(swt) created things in pairs.

6. Have faith, have faith and never stop having faith in your Creater (swt) ----He (swt) has the power to give you whatever you desire!

May He(swt) bless you with what you desire and keep you on the straight path......

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Salam.

I do realize that I'm limiting the selection of men down to a minimum when I require a virgin man. But that's what I want: a small selection of men who're right for me. Not a huge selection of men who're wrong for me. I think men like to have a huge selection of women to choose from, regardless of how right or wrong they are for them...but I think women are a bit different. We don't need a big selection to choose from...

How are they "Wrong" for you? simply based on the fact that hes been in a halal relationship before? Okay I even understand when some women come forward and scream ew honestly hes a great man but I am not physically attracted to him but his past relationship does not even factor into the mans attractiveness so I don't know where this is coming from. I also understand why some women would PREFER a past relationship free man considering they are virgins themselves but to outright hold that as s condition is unfair. As I said, you are not eliminating a large pool of men who are WRONG for you, rather simply cutting your options short with respects to men who could perfectly satisfy all your needs. You can choose to be however picky you want to be, that is your problem, but if you think about it, this may not be whats best for YOU in the end.

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Alakum salam,

Just to point out something (maybe I'm misunderstanding you) just so you're clear on it. You DO have right to specify that your husband cannot marry any other women while he is married to you and he must follow this as part of the marriage contract. If he marries another women (despite this being specified) while married to you then the contract is voided. If this is what you want, I would just make sure that this is actually written (not just spoken) in the marriage contract and that you discuss the implications of this with your local Imam (Islamic scholar) before you make the final decision.

May Allah (s.w.a.) bless you with the best husband, and may your future marriage be a blissful one that leads you both closer to Allah (s.w.a.)

The highlighted information is not true. If he breaks what he agreed to in the contract the marriage does not become void.

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The highlighted information is not true. If he breaks what he agreed to in the contract the marriage does not become void.

If a clause in the marriage contract explicitly states that the marriage will be null and void as soon as the husband marries another women, then the marriage will become void if the condition is met? Perhaps they still have to say the seegha for divorce?

I think the more proper clause should be that the wife will get the right to divorce the husband if he marries another. It gives the woman time for reflection and she can exercise her right if so she wishes.

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(salam)

Alpha_Female,

I don't think it is wrong to desire positive qualities in your future spouse. But a religious, rich, successful, funny, virgin man may want to marry a religious, rich, funny virgin, gorgeous and a very successful girl. So I think it is important to ensure that we have the qualities that we seek/desire in others.

Secondly, what if he has some amazing qualities that is not in your list? Are you sure you want to be that inflexible? :unsure:

Third, Are you sure you want to wait for Mr Right forever, when you can have Mr Almost Right tomorrow. What is the guarantee that Mr A will make a better husband than Mr B?

Edited by Zareen

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If a clause in the marriage contract explicitly states that the marriage will be null and void as soon as the husband marries another women, then the marriage will become void if the condition is met? Perhaps they still have to say the seegha for divorce?

I think the more proper clause should be that the wife will get the right to divorce the husband if he marries another. It gives the woman time for reflection and she can exercise her right if so she wishes.

You are right in that if the female puts in the contract that in the case that the mentioned happens she has the right to divorce, then she can practice this right and divorce, however if in the contract the man is not allowed to marry a second wife and he does, it is a complicated matter and does not automatically allow for her to divorce him or nullify the marriage. The details of exactly what happens im not sure of, but i am sure that the marriage does not become void.

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Salam all.

I'm not interested in getting married yet; I don't have the desire or the will right now to take on the responsibilities that marriage would impose on me. With that said though, I would like to get married some day so I obviously do think about what qualities I'd like a significant other to possess. I know I have an unusual amount of requirements and demands - that I am very picky about men...but I honestly don't think I'm being unrealistic or unfair at all; I'm not asking for anything that I can't "offer" or "put on the table" for a man myself, you know? However, my surroundings seem to be ridiculing me, laughing at me and saying things like, "good luck, Babe, you'll never find a guy like that". At first, I was able to convince myself that my surroundings just meet a "certain" type of people, NOT my type of people, and therefor don't know/haven't experienced any better. But since then I've talked to some guys that I've been interested in (seriously, of course) who all turned out to not live up to my requirements. I therefore rejected them...and had to hear from them as well that I'm basically dellusional, unrealistic and unfair in my requirements...that I'm never going to meet the type of man that I require because such man doesn't exist. I've come to the point where I've actually started to believe it...I guess I'm writing this thread to hear what other Muslims think (since people around me aren't Muslims), and maybe tell me something that will make me feel that I'm not being unrealistic as everyone tells me I am...

My main requirements for a guy (besides Muslimness) is that he's intelligent, educated (schoolwise), stable and independant (financially), spontaneous, funny, interesting, loving and kind, loyal, takes me seriously - aaand has NO past with women; no emotional or sexual baggage whatsoever. I don't have any of that myself, and I'm too jealous of a person to deal with a man who has it, so I feel like it isn't at all an unfair requirement to make. But what do you think? AM I being unrealistic?

(salam)

Peace

EDITED

Mod's Note: We encourage members to be courteous to others, and treat fellow members the way they wish to be treated. Intelligent discourse and freedom of expression is encouraged, as long as it is exercised with responsibility. Insults made against other members on this board are not tolerated, even those made via PM. Warnings will be issued to offending members.

Edited by Zareen

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Salam.

Alakum salam,

Just to point out something (maybe I'm misunderstanding you) just so you're clear on it. You DO have right to specify that your husband cannot marry any other women while he is married to you and he must follow this as part of the marriage contract. If he marries another women (despite this being specified) while married to you then the contract is voided. If this is what you want, I would just make sure that this is actually written (not just spoken) in the marriage contract and that you discuss the implications of this with your local Imam (Islamic scholar) before you make the final decision.

May Allah (s.w.a.) bless you with the best husband, and may your future marriage be a blissful one that leads you both closer to Allah (s.w.a.)

Thank you very much for making things clear to me and advicing me to make the marriage contract with the involvement of an imam. That's absolute a very wise thing to do IMO. I do think that deals have to be written and signed, not just spoken words. I know that in the worst case scenario I could be stuck with a husband who'll simply lie and say he made no such deal with me, that he wouldn't marry anybody else but me. I would have no chance of proving that he has if our deal was only oral, and not written.

I personally think it's incredibly naive to rely on trust completely. You obviously have to have it towards your spouse but I think the "what-ifs" should always be in the back of anybody's minds. It's important to be prepared for everything life trows at you, goods and bads. If he's not going to fool you then a marriage contract with specific deals written on it shouldn't be an issue of trust - just something you'd do to ease each others' minds.

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Salam.

How are they "Wrong" for you? simply based on the fact that hes been in a halal relationship before? Okay I even understand when some women come forward and scream ew honestly hes a great man but I am not physically attracted to him but his past relationship does not even factor into the mans attractiveness so I don't know where this is coming from. I also understand why some women would PREFER a past relationship free man considering they are virgins themselves but to outright hold that as s condition is unfair. As I said, you are not eliminating a large pool of men who are WRONG for you, rather simply cutting your options short with respects to men who could perfectly satisfy all your needs. You can choose to be however picky you want to be, that is your problem, but if you think about it, this may not be whats best for YOU in the end.

Why do you understand it when women choose men over their looks and on basis of whether or not they're someone they'd potentially sleep with, but not when women choose men over their morals? When it comes down to it, in most cases, it really is a matter of morals, and getting a spouse whose morals matches your own. I honestly can't imagine living with a man whose sexual morals aren't similar to my own. I don't need a spouse to break my morals down and argue with me on them...telling me I'm wrong, a prude, a snob or whatever. I want a man who feels the same as me about sexuality, and supports me rather than disencourage me, and makes me feel like I'm the wrong to value virginity and having ONE single sexual partner throughout life (inshallah). I don't think that a man who's had sex with women prior to marriage with me is someone who'd support me at all. I have never expereinced that a non-virgin man understand - and why would he? If he understood, he would have complied to the same morals as I have.

I mentioned my jealousy towards non-virgin men, which is definitely also the issue...but the jealousy is triggered by ^that.

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To the OP...............

In an age when many Muslim women are converts who do not have the benefit of Muslim parents to help them in matters related to marriage, women have to be extra-cautious when choosing their life-partners. This list of questions can help a woman identify the issues which are important to her before agreeing to marriage.I guess you better take a look here: http://jannah.org/sisters/queshusbands.html

As De Niro said O Greece I Love the Sea.........

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Salam Fahim.

Barakallahu feek, thank you very much. Very useful sheet for any sister to read and get inspiration from.

Salam Zareen.

I don't think it is wrong to desire positive qualities in your future spouse. But a religious, rich, successful, funny, virgin man may want to marry a religious, rich, funny virgin, gorgeous and a very successful girl. So I think it is important to ensure that we have the qualities that we seek/desire in others.

Oh, absolutely happy.gif. As I mentioned right in the beginning, I'm not requiring anything in a man that I can't put on the table myself. I wouldn't be requiring a man who's stable if I wasn't stable myself. I wouldn't be requiring a man who has no relationship and sexual baggage if I had a load of it myself...that would definitely be very hypocritical and wrong.

Secondly, what if he has some amazing qualities that is not in your list? Are you sure you want to be that inflexible? unsure.gif

Hehe, my "list" can always be added to! I welcome any amazing qualities that I might not have thought about before myself. So it's not that I know I want this and this and that, and close my eyes to eveything else. Not at all. I just require certain things; things that I will not compromise with - not even for other amazing qualities. For instance, I'm not going to accept a non-virgin man just because he's better looking than the average man. I have never really prioritized physical appearance that highly before but who knows...maybe some man could make me do it! But I'd still need for him to be a virgin wink.gif.

Third, Are you sure you want to wait for Mr Right forever, when you can have Mr Almost Right tomorrow. What is the guarantee that Mr A will make a better husband than Mr B?

I'm not looking to get married as soon as possible. Time is not the issue, the man is. So no, I wouldn't settle with being half-content when I can be fully content. I have trust in Allah, and I'm thinking that it's impossible that I should be the only person in the world who values virginity, and can wait with certain things until married. I refuse to believe it.

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Salam,

Sorry I did not read all of the replys, so not sure if anyone else passed on this advice but here goes:

First of all, I don't think your requirements are too picky. Those are all vaild qualities to look for in a spouse. However, for someone to possess all of the qualities is hard to find though not impossible. My suggestion would be to categorize your requirements. Since there are certain things in that list which is a must requirement (no previous baggage) while with something like spontaneous you can live without.

So:

Category 1: A must requirements

Category 2: Preferred requirements

Catergory 3: Preferred requirements but could live without

So if you find someone who fits the items in category 1 and 2 and is missing one or two in category 3, you should give him a good consideration.

Also, like i stated before, these are all common things we look for in a spouse, sometimes you may not be able to see all the qualities in the outfront of an individual. For example, people think my brother is a very serious guy, to a point when one person saw him laugh, they asked his wife, oh he laughs too? but hes quite the contrary and actually the joker of our family sooo..... lol..

and last but not least... since all your requirements are valid, perhaps you are looking at a wrong place or locations for such individuals? perhaps drilling at a wrong place for oil?

and finally lol.. ( i promise this is the last one) do keep in mind. Just like how you have a big list of things you are looking for, so is the person you are looking for..... he has a big list of requirements also.... food for thoughts

Salam all.

I'm not interested in getting married yet; I don't have the desire or the will right now to take on the responsibilities that marriage would impose on me. With that said though, I would like to get married some day so I obviously do think about what qualities I'd like a significant other to possess. I know I have an unusual amount of requirements and demands - that I am very picky about men...but I honestly don't think I'm being unrealistic or unfair at all; I'm not asking for anything that I can't "offer" or "put on the table" for a man myself, you know? However, my surroundings seem to be ridiculing me, laughing at me and saying things like, "good luck, Babe, you'll never find a guy like that". At first, I was able to convince myself that my surroundings just meet a "certain" type of people, NOT my type of people, and therefor don't know/haven't experienced any better. But since then I've talked to some guys that I've been interested in (seriously, of course) who all turned out to not live up to my requirements. I therefore rejected them...and had to hear from them as well that I'm basically dellusional, unrealistic and unfair in my requirements...that I'm never going to meet the type of man that I require because such man doesn't exist. I've come to the point where I've actually started to believe it...I guess I'm writing this thread to hear what other Muslims think (since people around me aren't Muslims), and maybe tell me something that will make me feel that I'm not being unrealistic as everyone tells me I am...

My main requirements for a guy (besides Muslimness) is that he's intelligent, educated (schoolwise), stable and independant (financially), spontaneous, funny, interesting, loving and kind, loyal, takes me seriously - aaand has NO past with women; no emotional or sexual baggage whatsoever. I don't have any of that myself, and I'm too jealous of a person to deal with a man who has it, so I feel like it isn't at all an unfair requirement to make. But what do you think? AM I being unrealistic?

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I am assuming you are in the age group 18-22 and It is normal for girls in this age group to be more selective. Girls usually get most of the proposals when they are between the ages of 18-23. And if they r lucky enough, they can find their dream guy.

Age.jpg

Hope this chart helps!

Edited by dan_rafi

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I don't see what's wrong in having had sex before a certain marriage?

Having sex can also be done in a halal way without being permanently married y'know? There's nothing wrong in that.

But if you mean a man who's been dangling around partying for a time, then I totally understand you and you have every right to be that way. I know I would.

But still, just pointing out, a brotha can change and deeply regret what he has done in the past y'know?

Peace

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(salam)

My main requirements for a guy (besides Muslimness) is that he's intelligent, educated (schoolwise), stable and independant (financially), spontaneous, funny, interesting, loving and kind, loyal, takes me seriously - aaand has NO past with women; no emotional or sexual baggage whatsoever. I don't have any of that myself, and I'm too jealous of a person to deal with a man who has it, so I feel like it isn't at all an unfair requirement to make. But what do you think? AM I being unrealistic?

Everyone has standards and that's absolutely fine; what's probably best though is to have a few specific standards in mind that you feel are most important, and then put the rest on the side. To be honest I don't find too many people that 100% fulfill your requirements (Muslim, intelligent, educated, independent, spontaneous, funny, interesting, loving, kind, loyal, takes you seriously and has no history with women). I'm sure many guys reading this would think that they fulfill all of these requirements, but everyone has a different opinion of what's funny, what's interesting, what kind of education is legitimate, how far spontaneousness can go, etc. All I'm saying is, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the knight in shining armour that everyone likes does not really exist - especially one with no emotional/sexual history with women.

I'm not telling you to look for a less than perfect guy, or someone who you think you can change, but have some priorities over others. What's most important to me in a wife is her loyalty to Allah and Islam (because if she is not loyal to her Lord, I cannot expect he to be loyal to me) as well as someone I can comfortably talk to/inquire/joke with, without feeling nervous or uneasy. I think that's the key - and as soon as I find someone I'm comfortable with personally, who shares an emotional bond, I will marry that person.

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Men with sexual experiences do carry baggage and that baggage could be reall difficult for you to deal with. I also have a personal theory that a man with sexual experiences may not be satisfied with his wife - always looking for the best bits of each of those in his past. That would make if very difficult for you as well.

I hold the same theory and as I age I observe so many cases proving my theory to just be completely correct!

A person with no experience can definitely make the (first time) marriage work very well. I am not saying it can't happen. But some of us can have totally unrealistic expectations of a relationship with a woman, or not fully aware of our own selves, and thus fail at building a healthy marriage. I am only reporting my observations. I am also not saying that one has to go through a full-blown relationship. It's more about an experience, call it infatuation, crush, love etc, where you try to build a dynamic with the beloved, and discover many things along the way.

I don't think bringing up examples of the Prophet and the Imam is meaningful in this case - us guys are not infallibles. Not to mention that we live in a radically different world than the people of the past lived in.

You'd be surprised how many young men (mid twenties) do fit in the criteria the OP described. They do exist, men who have not been involved in a physical or emotional relationship (I'm talking about real emotional relationships not high school crushes and these stuff) just like women like this exists too. They are not the majority perhaps but they are not very few either. And don't think they did not get involved because they could not but like some women, they chose to save it all up for the one because they have their own theory of happiness or love. It is only fair for women who worked very hard on themselves and saved even their emotions for the permanent commitment to seek men who worked as hard on themselves. I'm not saying it is wrong to be involved in relationships before marriage but I am saying that it is very rational for this woman or any other woman to seek someone like her. It is not selfish nor it is looking for something close to impossible.

This one however may be unislamic ------> independant (financially),. Imam Ali[a] wasn't financially stable.

I'm not sure if you read about marriage criteria in Islam but remember aside from mahar, it says that the man should be able to support his wife, shelter, clothing, nutrition and give provide her with a life similar to what she used to have prior to marriage so her financially independent criteria is totally Islamic. Not that you can compare Imam Ali to nowadays men but still who told you Imam Ali married women when he was not financially stable? Would he marry a women knowing he cannot feed , dress, shelter her and support her? I think not.

The label 'unIslamic' should be used parsimoniously and only where it is suited.

Exactly!

I dont understand the male response here - I have read so many threads where it is accepted without question that many men only want untouched girls for potential mates. But for a woman to state the same is seen as unrealisitc. What is the difference in thinking??

It's always like this. Just remember what is a women who's done 5 mutahs before permanent marriage is called by men(ehem yes that word)? While men who who have had zillion mutahs and perhaps even fornicated a few times before marriage but then they stop right before marriage are men who have exercised their "mashallah" Islamic right(mutah) and they repented from fornication so another "mashalah" so we should grow up and look past these details! Yes I know you're probably saying "Hypocrites!!!!!!!!!!", that's what they are.

Well I only said what I did since I wouldn't hold it against a girl myself. The way he dealt with his past relationships is a very relevant and critical issue but having problems solely with the fact he was in a relationship before is unfair in my opinion.

That is the first time I hear this from a man. Kudos(for allowing to your best half what you allow to yourself)! Not many people, let alone men, can get past their spouse's sexual past. If both spouses had a past it's fine for me but if one of them worked their life up and abstained from so many tempting chances it's just unfair(in my dictionary) to life up with a spouse who's done it all, took advantage of every chance they got, been with so many(or even one) emotional/sexual partners ! In my dictionary again, these two are NOT compatible and I can foresee the failure of these types of marriages .

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Oh and to the OP, your not being too picky at all. You're looking for general requirements anyone looking for marriage would require either the same or probably more requirements. Also, you mentioned that you're not looking for marriage right now, then remember than people's conditions change as they age, they think a little differently every year, things that might be very important to you now in a spouse might seem not too important in a few years and things you're neglecting now might seem number one requirement in a few years so it's fine to think about what you want but keep in mind that it's NOT a check list- especially in choosing a spouse or accepting a proposal, it is NOT a check list as sometimes the person in question might have an overwhelming quality that will cross down some of the less significant or even significant conditions you have and the opposite is also true. Also love is a whole different story too, it can cross down half your requirements list -sometimes it's very good and you're grateful and sometimes you'd wish you were an emotionless creature.

Edited by Calm

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I'm going to put in my two cents here because i am noticing a pattern that i am not liking. Is it perfectly okay for somebody to choose to be with somebody who hasn't had a relationship or sexual intercourse before? Ofcourse it is, people can choose to do whatever they want and think whatever they want, HOWEVER, people are trying to justify this choice by degrading people that do not fall into the category.

Using words, labels, and tones that make people who have had relationships or had sex seem like the worst kind of people, completely forgetting that islamically, a girl who has had 5 mutahs before a permanent marriage can still be more religious and mo2mena than a virgin girl, and a man who has had 1000 similarly can be more religious than many. I know that nobody logically believes this to be false, but apparently emotionally wise many of you do not see this.

A female in this situation has done absolutely nothing wrong, she is still pure, has not erred or sinned against Allah swt and is not LESS than a girl who is still a virgin in ANY way.

Now as for some peoples theories that a man who has had sexual partners, even one, will judge their new wife according to previously set standards, etc, im sure there are some men who will fall into this category but sex isn't something that can really be very comparable. A man might have been with a woman with a certain quality that he liked, but that doesn't mean when he is with his current wife he will be dissatisfied and go and look for another woman with the quality that is missing. Even amongst two virgins they may not be satisfying each other and so they need to communicate what they want and fix themselves so they can have a very healthy and good experience in that area of their married life.

If a man is good in so many aspects, even so that a girl would agree to marry him, chances are he will also be the nice sweet guy in the bedroom that is helpful and communicative as to what he wants, not ditch her and go look for a girl to satisfy his desires.

Also, if a man had a mutah with only one female and he was emotionally involved with her as well, once time passes, and he finds a wife whom he also loves, he creates an entirely new relationship and life with this female and is not thinking about any other female when with her, because she is his love and he wouldn't be satisfied with anybody else.

And finally, i know of several women who married men who had previously been in mutahs with other women and they have advised other sisters that this is a very good thing to have in a husband and they are glad that they fell into such a situation because they were inexperienced, the first time for a female can be very difficult, and its good to have a man who knows what he is doing so that minimal discomfort is present, plus that area of life is better for the female as the man knows what he is doing.

I hope my post wasn't too erm.. inappropriate :unsure: i tried to use as appropriate language as i could to get across the ideas that i wanted to.

Edited by 3ashiqat-Al-Batoul

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I'm going to put in my two cents here because i am noticing a pattern that i am not liking. Is it perfectly okay for somebody to choose to be with somebody who hasn't had a relationship or sexual intercourse before? Ofcourse it is, people can choose to do whatever they want and think whatever they want, HOWEVER, people are trying to justify this choice by degrading people that do not fall into the category.

Using words, labels, and tones that make people who have had relationships or had sex seem like the worst kind of people, completely forgetting that islamically, a girl who has had 5 mutahs before a permanent marriage can still be more religious and mo2mena than a virgin girl, and a man who has had 1000 similarly can be more religious than many. I know that nobody logically believes this to be false, but apparently emotionally wise many of you do not see this.

A female in this situation has done absolutely nothing wrong, she is still pure, has not erred or sinned against Allah swt and is not LESS than a girl who is still a virgin in ANY way.

Now as for some peoples theories that a man who has had sexual partners, even one, will judge their new wife according to previously set standards, etc, im sure there are some men who will fall into this category but sex isn't something that can really be very comparable. A man might have been with a woman with a certain quality that he liked, but that doesn't mean when he is with his current wife he will be dissatisfied and go and look for another woman with the quality that is missing. Even amongst two virgins they may not be satisfying each other and so they need to communicate what they want and fix themselves so they can have a very healthy and good experience in that area of their married life.

If a man is good in so many aspects, even so that a girl would agree to marry him, chances are he will also be the nice sweet guy in the bedroom that is helpful and communicative as to what he wants, not ditch her and go look for a girl to satisfy his desires.

Also, if a man had a mutah with only one female and he was emotionally involved with her as well, once time passes, and he finds a wife whom he also loves, he creates an entirely new relationship and life with this female and is not thinking about any other female when with her, because she is his love and he wouldn't be satisfied with anybody else.

And finally, i know of several women who married men who had previously been in mutahs with other women and they have advised other sisters that this is a very good thing to have in a husband and they are glad that they fell into such a situation because they were inexperienced, the first time for a female can be very difficult, and its good to have a man who knows what he is doing so that minimal discomfort is present, plus that area of life is better for the female as the man knows what he is doing.

I hope my post wasn't too erm.. inappropriate :unsure: i tried to use as appropriate language as i could to get across the ideas that i wanted to.

Just to clarify because it seems you missed my point. I am NOT saying a girl who's done mutah is bad at ALL I am saying the complete opposite in fact. I am saying many men are NOT fair when it comes to judging this very woman who's done NOTHING wrong Islamically . I am saying men should be fair and regard a mu2minah woman who has be with other men halal-lly l;ike any other mu2ninah just like they allow this to themselves (males being in Islamic relationships). I clearly said people who talk ill of these women but allowing it to themselves are hypocrites! Hope that clarifies a little. Edited by Calm

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Salam.

No one is claiming that a person who's had 5 mut'ah marriages is a bad person or a bad Muslim. However, if your attitude towards sex is that you only need and WANT one partner throughout life then someone who's had 5, and doesn't view sex as something they should limit themselves on (even when done in halal circumstances), is not someone who shares the same mentality as yourself. Obviously one can't bash that person for having halal sex but...just because you can have it, doesn't mean that you should just do it, and not think about what the future with-holds.

Qa'im,

You're right, it's better to have somemain points to focus on, and leave some of the rest more open. I believe that that's what I'm doing...there's only about 4-5 things that I don't compromise on at all...the rest is negotiable :).

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You'd be surprised how many young men (mid twenties) do fit in the criteria the OP described. They do exist, men who have not been involved in a physical or emotional relationship (I'm talking about real emotional relationships not high school crushes and these stuff) just like women like this exists too. They are not the majority perhaps but they are not very few either. And don't think they did not get involved because they could not but like some women, they chose to save it all up for the one because they have their own theory of happiness or love. It is only fair for women who worked very hard on themselves and saved even their emotions for the permanent commitment to seek men who worked as hard on themselves. I'm not saying it is wrong to be involved in relationships before marriage but I am saying that it is very rational for this woman or any other woman to seek someone like her. It is not selfish nor it is looking for something close to impossible.

If both spouses had a past it's fine for me but if one of them worked their life up and abstained from so many tempting chances it's just unfair(in my dictionary) to life up with a spouse who's done it all, took advantage of every chance they got, been with so many(or even one) emotional/sexual partners ! In my dictionary again, these two are NOT compatible and I can foresee the failure of these types of marriages.

While I understand the sentiment and respect peoples choices of what they want in their spouses, I should nonetheless point out that the whole notion of "saving oneself" for someone who is not even remotely on the screen, and to abstain from all emotional, especially sexual indulgences [that is; halal ones], has very little [or nothing] to do with Islam as much as it has to do with feudal culture. Although staying abstinent for your future spouse who you long, but whom you have never met and never seen (just like Wordsworth's cuckoo) is a romantic and very sweet idea but logically as well as Islamically, you only reserve and submit yourself to your spouse once you are committed, that is, either you have agreed to get married or properly married.

I know why someone would like to fully abstain from emotional/sexual encounters before the permanent marriage. It can really hurt and result in unintended negative consequences. You don't want any limiting factors and stay free of the shadows of the past when you enter into a full-time permanent marriage with the intention of building a family. I lean towards this idea. But that's one possibility if you were involved previously. It does not mean, I think in most cases, that a person with a past experience (once, say) is no longer suitable for and compatible with potential virgin spouses. There are far important things to consider in a marriage. As long as you knew your spouse's previous relationships before you got married, you should put them behind your back and move on.

Virginity of a suitable spouse especially among men and traditional families is to the point of obsession. I like to downplay its importance. Many girls who want to have an experience without being tied to a man forever can't exercise this halal option due to the problems it can cause them later even if they had zillion chances to do that.

If I were to give a heading to my post, it would be this:

Why being virgin is a virtue?, or, in other words: Why staying virgin till your permanent marriage is such a good thing?

That is the first time I hear this from a man. Kudos(for allowing to your best half what you allow to yourself)! Not many people, let alone men, can get past their spouse's sexual past.

Really? Then hear it second time. I thumbs up bonafide. I am willing to consider a girl who is not a virgin or been in mutah if she meets my 'necessary requirements', and as long as all relevant information is disclosed. My take on this issue is completely independent of me being a virgin or non-virgin.

Edited by Marbles

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Salam.

I suppose people who think virginity is a virtue have different reasons for thinking so. For me personally there are two elements in this whole wanting-a-virgin issue (and none of them has to do with the actual virginity/hymen - which men obviously don't possess):

1) giving and recieving first/last/only time experiences...giving and recieving "exclusivity"

2) being with somebody who shares your morals, and values your morals...someone who acknowledge you for being respective of your own body as well as their's. A virgin is most likely literally pure...free from STDs. I'd personally like to be treated special because I'm a virgin and not putting my partner at risc like non-virgin women are (especially those who've had unprotected sex with men). I personalle believe that only a virgin values virginity, and would treat a virgin differently from a non-virgin. It really offends me when people say, "virginity, who cares?". Why would I want to be with someone who equates me to women who've slept with 30 men? If it makes no difference to them they might as well take the women who've been with the 30 men. I'm not saying women who've had a lot of sexual partners are bad people but they obviously don't have the same morals as a virgin. Nor the same health, possibly. Jsut because people use condoms doesn't mean that they're safe. Condoms can break, and often do.

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Salam.

I suppose people who think virginity is a virtue have different reasons for thinking so. For me personally there are two elements in this whole wanting-a-virgin issue (and none of them has to do with the actual virginity/hymen - which men obviously don't possess):

1) giving and recieving first/last/only time experiences...giving and recieving "exclusivity"

2) being with somebody who shares your morals, and values your morals...someone who acknowledge you for being respective of your own body as well as their's. A virgin is most likely literally pure...free from STDs. I'd personally like to be treated special because I'm a virgin and not putting my partner at risc like non-virgin women are (especially those who've had unprotected sex with men). I personalle believe that only a virgin values virginity, and would treat a virgin differently from a non-virgin. It really offends me when people say, "virginity, who cares?". Why would I want to be with someone who equates me to women who've slept with 30 men? If it makes no difference to them they might as well take the women who've been with the 30 men. I'm not saying women who've had a lot of sexual partners are bad people but they obviously don't have the same morals as a virgin. Nor the same health, possibly. Jsut because people use condoms doesn't mean that they're safe. Condoms can break, and often do.

A woman who was slept with 30 guys before settling down in a permanent marriage has serious issue with her believe me. No thinking person, let alone a virgin, is going to accept her. But this not the point. I mean, for the sake of an example, I'd reject such a woman NOT for being a non-virgin but for her erratic relationship history :squeez: As I said before, if a woman has been involved once or reasonably more than once, then according to some peoples criteria, it makes her unsuitable and incompatible for a virgin guy. There might be issues related to past relationship(s) which should be taken into consideration but I believe that the non-virginity of a woman per se doesn't make her any less suitable than she was as virgin. This does not mean "virginity, who cares?". People may care a lot but may not be obsessed with it. :)

It all comes down to individual preferences, of course, but I should warn against the extraordinary emphasis on sexual innocence, negative consequences that it may create and horrible practices that spin from it.

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While I understand the sentiment and respect peoples choices of what they want in their spouses, I should nonetheless point out that the whole notion of "saving oneself" for someone who is not even remotely on the screen, and to abstain from all emotional, especially sexual indulgences [that is; halal ones], has very little [or nothing] to do with Islam as much as it has to do with feudal culture. Although staying abstinent for your future spouse who you long, but whom you have never met and never seen (just like Wordsworth's cuckoo) is a romantic and very sweet idea but logically as well as Islamically, you only reserve and submit yourself to your spouse once you are committed, that is, either you have agreed to get married or properly married.

I know why someone would like to fully abstain from emotional/sexual encounters before the permanent marriage. It can really hurt and result in unintended negative consequences. You don't want any limiting factors and stay free of the shadows of the past when you enter into a full-time permanent marriage with the intention of building a family. I lean towards this idea. But that's one possibility if you were involved previously. It does not mean, I think in most cases, that a person with a past experience (once, say) is no longer suitable for and compatible with potential virgin spouses. There are far important things to consider in a marriage. As long as you knew your spouse's previous relationships before you got married, you should put them behind your back and move on.

Virginity of a suitable spouse especially among men and traditional families is to the point of obsession. I like to downplay its importance. Many girls who want to have an experience without being tied to a man forever can't exercise this halal option due to the problems it can cause them later even if they had zillion chances to do that.

If I were to give a heading to my post, it would be this:

Why being virgin is a virtue?, or, in other words: Why staying virgin till your permanent marriage is such a good thing?

Really? Then hear it second time. I thumbs up bonafide. I am willing to consider a girl who is not a virgin or been in mutah if she meets my 'necessary requirements', and as long as all relevant information is disclosed. My take on this issue is completely independent of me being a virgin or non-virgin.

Again I did not explain myself well it seems. My issue was not obsession with marrying a virgin . My concern or my belief is that if this person has been with women(halal relationship and it's totally halaal and all again my point was not whether it is Islamic or not I'm speaking about my own preferences and why do I think so) will be different with his wife than the one who has not being involved in either a serious emotional relationship or a sexual one. I'll be more specific, someone who has slept with many women before have experienced a diversity, have seen many, have done a lot and thus his expectations are different than one who has not touched a woman before. He has different expectations, he is not satisfied easily, a kiss would not "feel" so deep he's been kissed so many times by women before(let's leave it to that). Again every thing I say is in my opinion and I do not claim it's facts. So in my opinion a man who has not been with women before will appreciate all the small things from than bride, he's never hugged a woman so even that first hug is a big deal to him, I like to see that in my man I like to be the one who gave him all these new sensations. And aside from the physical sensations I'd like to give him also the new emotional sensation too and likewise I'd love that we're at the same level of experiencing all these emotions at the same time, first time for both of us. Another remark is that I noticed men who have been with women before marriage tend to regularly compare his wife to the others, meaning if on his ex dressed in a particular way or did something else in an experienced way, he will not be content with that new wife who is new to everything and is making effort learning . Women don't like being compared. You say put it behind, even if the wife puts it behind, the husband cannot press delete and empty trash from his memory and as long as he remembers he will compare and things will be different. I'm not obsessed with marrying a virgin but I am concerned on the effects it leaves on the person's character and expectations that will form the new relationship. Also is it more difficult for one who's been with many to commit to one for the rest of his life, than one who has not tasted being with a diversity and is more likely to be content with one life partner? I hope I'm making myself clearer. So I'm not saying being a virgin is a virtue I am sayings two virgins are more likely to get a long with each other.

As I said before, if a woman has been involved once or reasonably more than once, then according to some peoples criteria, it makes her unsuitable and incompatible for a virgin guy. There might be issues related to past relationship(s) which should be taken into consideration but I believe that the non-virginity of a woman per se doesn't make her any less suitable than she was as virgin. This does not mean "virginity, who cares?".

I agree to that too. My issue is not with virginity itself but I did not explain myself eloquently it seems. Also I am VERY against thinking a non virgin woman is any less than a virgin, in fact I despise people who think like this. Like I said before, I just think it's normal for someone who has not been with men before to wish to the same from the potential spouse. I also said that many times we cross down many criterias even the most important ones when we meet someone whom we're interested in...What's wrong with having a preference ? Ah I gave up hope on explanation my point so people would understand.

Edited by Calm

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Again I did not explain myself well it seems. My issue was not obsession with marrying a virgin . My concern or my belief is that if this person has been with women(halal relationship and it's totally halaal and all again my point was not whether it is Islamic or not I'm speaking about my own preferences and why do I think so) will be different with his wife than the one who has not being involved in either a serious emotional relationship or a sexual one. I'll be more specific, someone who has slept with many women before have experienced a diversity, have seen many, have done a lot and thus his expectations are different than one who has not touched a woman before. He has different expectations, he is not satisfied easily, a kiss would not "feel" so deep he's been kissed so many times by women before(let's leave it to that). Again every thing I say is in my opinion and I do not claim it's facts. So in my opinion a man who has not been with women before will appreciate all the small things from than bride, he's never hugged a woman so even that first hug is a big deal to him, I like to see that in my man I like to be the one who gave him all these new sensations. And aside from the physical sensations I'd like to give him also the new emotional sensation too and likewise I'd love that we're at the same level of experiencing all these emotions at the same time, first time for both of us. Another remark is that I noticed men who have been with women before marriage tend to regularly compare his wife to the others, meaning if on his ex dressed in a particular way or did something else in an experienced way, he will not be content with that new wife who is new to everything and is making effort learning . Women don't like being compared. You say put it behind, even if the wife puts it behind, the husband cannot press delete and empty trash from his memory and as long as he remembers he will compare and things will be different. I'm not obsessed with marrying a virgin but I am concerned on the effects it leaves on the person's character and expectations that will form the new relationship. Also is it more difficult for one who's been with many to commit to one for the rest of his life, than one who has not tasted being with a diversity and is more likely to be content with one life partner? I hope I'm making myself clearer. So I'm not saying being a virgin is a virtue I am sayings two virgins are more likely to get a long with each other.

No, I completely understood your point. My post was not a critique on your or opening poster's personal preferences. Two virgins sharing the most precious moments with each other for the first time is indeed something very special and unique. In fact, on a personal level, I pretty much favour the idea. Hope it doesn't sound as if I am contradicting myself LOL. I was just attempting to look at the matter in impersonal and more mundane terms. And for this reason, referring to the emboldened parts above, I think that the answers can go either way. A virgin who gets a virgin spouse may or may not be content with the same person for the rest of their life. The sweet and unique experience for a virgin to be with a virgin evaporates when real issues take on married life. Not only men, who are less grounded in this philosophy, women also tend to loose interest when the 'honeymoon' period is over. I was thinking of couples I personally know of and I couldn't find a stable pattern affirming the hypothesis that two virgins in a marriage are more likely to get along with each other than virgin-nonvirgin couple. There isn't any empirical evidence to suggest that either?

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No, I completely understood your point. My post was not a critique on your or opening poster's personal preferences. Two virgins sharing the most precious moments with each other for the first time is indeed something very special and unique. In fact, on a personal level, I pretty much favour the idea. Hope it doesn't sound as if I am contradicting myself LOL. I was just attempting to look at the matter in impersonal and more mundane terms. And for this reason, referring to the emboldened parts above, I think that the answers can go either way. A virgin who gets a virgin spouse may or may not be content with the same person for the rest of their life. The sweet and unique experience for a virgin to be with a virgin evaporates when real issues take on married life. Not only men, who are less grounded in this philosophy, women also tend to loose interest when the 'honeymoon' period is over. I was thinking of couples I personally know of and I couldn't find a stable pattern affirming the hypothesis that two virgins in a marriage are more likely to get along with each other than virgin-nonvirgin couple. There isn't any empirical evidence to suggest that either?

No , no evidence just personal observations. You are right things might work or not with both scenarios however in my observations of the couples I know, it seems the man who has been with a few often compares his wife to his ex ones. Also it also seem in these sames couples that whenever a problem occurs the man leans to his past temporary relationships and sometimes actually goes back to one of them as a run from reality door rather than solving the real issue. Also with the couples who have been with only one partner before it's much less problematic than those who have been with many but still many times they want to stay "friends" with the ex, which also troubles the relationship. Some of them don't connect back to their past at all(they remember them but can manage not making their wives suffer from these memories) which are very very few among the rest. Again both relationship types can work or not work but I prefer the unique feeling and would feel more secure with that one than with someone who's been with few women before. That been said, again love(falling in love) can change all our preference list and cross everything down. As I said before it's just a preference not a check list.

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Folks... don't wait forever for the perfect person to come along..... cuz there isn't any!

I have seen that some ppl are so materialistic that they would reject any proposal that is even slightly below their status quo.

And I have seen a lot of religious girls rejecting proposals just cuz the guy has done something stupid in the past and he truly regrets it !

Time is flying by so fast... n we r growing older by each passing day! As you grow older, your chances of finding a more compatible spouse goes down.

Think a100 times before rejecting a proposal !!!

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Salam Marbles.

There's nothing wrong on putting emphasis on sexual innocence as long as it remains a private, rather than social, matter. An individual can prioritize sexual innocense in a partner but that partner's innocence should not be advertized and objectified to the rest of society. I totally agree with that...

Salam Dan_Rafi.

And I have seen a lot of religious girls rejecting proposals just cuz the guy has done something stupid in the past and he truly regrets it !

Well, seeing people bagatelizing "stupid pasts", and showing no understanding for how pasts influences futures, just goes to show how "truly regretful" that person is. A person who "truly regrets" his "stupid past" would not dare ask of a woman to accept it, and bash her for not being able to do it so easily (like you do here; you make it out to be that it's the women there's something wrong with rather than those with the "stupid pasts"). It really pisses me off that people who've done "stupid pasts" expect forgiveness and get defenssive and angry when they don't get it. Unfortunately, forgiveness is not something you're entitled to, it's something you can only hope to get through actually showing remorse and understanding the other person's disappointment. Bagatelizing what you've done, making it out to be "nothing serious" and making the woman out to be the neurotic, senseless one...it probably doesn't score points with the woman who's supposed to forgive you. At least, I would kick such a man who has the nerve to demand forgiveness from me, and talks down to me because I don't give it to him, right to the curb.

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^ ^ ^ Okay so here is another person who is perfect... has neva fallen in love .... neva had any kinda crush on anyone... neva talked to a guy unless it was absolutely necessary..... wow!

Just pat urself on the back!!!!! I wish every muslim can be like u!

N btw, no one in their right mind would send an apology letter for the things he did in the past along with the marriage proposal.... if u have a problem with his/her past.... u simply move on. Next person and the next person ..... till u find ur "perfect" spouse.

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Mr. Right can turn out to be Mr. Right Total Nightmare

Perfection can also mean you end up in perfect hell.

Alpha_Female...

Just to point out that its great to have ideals and requirements, and there is nothing wrong with what you have laid out as perfect for you. But a person may have the required qualities today, however the real test lies in how will they maintain those qualities when put in less than ideal circumstances. A person with a great sense of humour can drop it like a sack of hot potatoes (and I dont mean temporarily) if backed up against a corner. An educated man may not be able to find a decent job in these economic times. Or a financially stable person may lose his job or business. A loving and kind person may just turn out to be loving and kind to others as well. How would you deal with all that?

My point is everything changes or becomes less pronounced as the relationship progresses. You need to find out if you are indeed a flexible person who will be able to stand by and support and perhaps help rectify such changes. So try and examine yourself first above all. See the support system of your potential spouse is his social and family and friend structure. A good relationship with them means that there will be outside help should the need ever arise.

Every relationship goes thru good and bad times and every personality changes accordingly. Are you also going to be dynamic or remain static?

Wish you all the best :)

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Salam.

Dan_Rafi,

I'm not saying people should apologize for their pasts, but they do need to show remorse. Not that it personally changes my mind that a man regrets his actions but I become more sympathetic towards him if I can see he really does regret his past. Someone with a defenssive, arrogant attitude about his past, such as you're showing now, just makes me vomit.

And if you read my post, you would have read that I can deal with men having had crushes...but not having loved other women. And yes, it is possible to go through a big part of your life without having loved anybody. And yes, that is way better than a man with a [Edited Out]ty past.

Muskaan,

I do realize that there's a marriage that need to work after the wedding - when things change and you experience ups and downs.

Salam.

I am assuming you are in the age group 18-22 and It is normal for girls in this age group to be more selective. Girls usually get most of the proposals when they are between the ages of 18-23. And if they r lucky enough, they can find their dream guy.

Age.jpg

Hope this chart helps!

Not really. What's the source of this chart? Who's executed the research scientifically?

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