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In the Name of God بسم الله

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(bismillah) (salam)

Most sunnis think prophet muhammad (saw) wasnt infaliblle, and they think that about other prophets too, one main reason is because in the quran it quotes them repenting to Allah, well first of all, if people followed this, quran according to those people would be contradicting itself, heres proof to his infalibillity,

53:2 - Your companion (Muhammad) did not err, nor did he go astray.

53:3 - And he does not say anything by his own desire.

53:4 - It is but a divine revelation, which is revealed to him

so clear proof of his infallibility, and if you still dont believe this....

theres a ayat in the quran (i searched for it, cant find it! :( ) that says "do not obey one who has erred or is ungrateful", so if prophet muhammad (pbuh) erred, we couldnt obey him, and therefore according to those who dont think he is infaliblle, the quran would be contradicting itself! because it says numerous places in the quran "obey Allah and his messenger" as of below

O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4: 59).

Notice the part i made in bold, according to shia that part refers to ahlul bayt (Prophet muhammad, Fatima, and 12 imams) peace be upon them, so it says obey him (the prophet) AND those charged in authority among you, who would also need to be infaliblle (since it says in quran somewhere:dont obey someone who has erred...), and umar, abu bakr, and the sunni caliphs are not infaliblle, it says in shia and sunni books in authentic hadiths that abu bakr and umar stole fadak from fatima zahra (sa), and Umar lit her house on fire, and therefore, angered her. Remember the authentic hadiths in sunni and shia sources saying prophet muhammad (saw) said "he who angers fatima angers me, and he who angers me, angers Allah", so obviously one who angers Allah has sinned, therefore not infallible, and its horrible, some sunnis have said Umar is superior to prophet (saw), and that Umar would say: If Allah knew my greatness, he would have made me prophet", so saying practically that Allah doesnt know something??? he knows everything! I have noticed also sunni scholars try to make their followers avoid shia books, but the shias dont do that, we let them explore the religions, heres a few books i would like to mention

1. To be with the truthful (written by a sunni who converted to shia)

2. Nights of peshawar (sunni/shia debate)

3. a movie produced from ONLY sunni resources about imam ali (as), you would think it would turn out different then how shia resources would make the movie, but nope, cause sunni books do have true things, but there are also many fabricated things, so they only took out the true parts, and it made it into a movie that turned out to be just like how shias depict the life of Imam Ali (as), and over 2 million sunnis converted to shia after seeing the movie. (i dont quite know the name of it, not on youtube though, and it was made by iranians)

One more thing i would like to say, as we know, of all muslims, 95 percent are sunni, and 15 percent are shia, listen, the number isnt what matters, its the quality of their people, and their beliefs, many times it has happened the truth is small, while the false is big, but im not trying to say the smaller the people, the more truthful, or the bigger the more truthful, dont judge by number.

(wasalam)

Edited by FatimaZahra
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(wasalam)

You shouldn't confuse what Sunnis ignorant of their own sect's beliefs say as being representational of actual Sunni doctrines. Or generalize Sunnism from Salafism (which the rest of the latter's scholars would largely regard as a deviation from orthodoxy).

From al-Fiqh al-Akbar of Abu Hanifa:

7. The Prophets, peace and blessings be upon them, are free of all sins, major and minor, of unbelief, and of all that is repugnant. It may be, however, that they commit insignificant lapses and errors. Muhammad the Messenger of God – may God's peace and blessings be upon him! – is His Prophet, His Bondsman, His Messenger and His Chosen One. He never worshipped idols, he never assigned partner to God, even for an instant, and he never committed a sin, major or minor.

You could also read this article of theirs: http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/infallibility_of_prophets.htm

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(bismillah) (salam)

Most sunnis think prophet muhammad (saw) wasnt infaliblle, and they think that about other prophets too, one main reason is because in the quran it quotes them repenting to Allah, well first of all, if people followed this, quran according to those people would be contradicting itself, heres proof to his infalibillity,

53:2 - Your companion (Muhammad) did not err, nor did he go astray.

53:3 - And he does not say anything by his own desire.

53:4 - It is but a divine revelation, which is revealed to him

I am not questioning his infallibility, rather I am wondering how this proves his infallibility ?

It says Muhammad did not err or go astray, and what comes out of his mouth doesn't come from his own desire but comes from God ( divine revelation )

To me these verses prove he's not a crazy madman and that what comes out of his mouth is from God, not from a mad man, nothing more.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

what about Prophet Adam (as)? Mistake not equal to sin?

This appears to say that he forgot:

وَلَقَدْ عَهِدْنَا إِلَى آدَمَ مِن قَبْلُ فَنَسِيَ وَلَمْ نَجِدْ لَهُ عَزْمًا

And certainly We gave a commandment to Adam before, but he forgot; and We did not find in him any determination.(20:115)

And we know in Islam, you don't get punished if your sincerely forgot.

Also, he was tricked by the shaytan(la)

We find a lot of Shia saying that the Prophets (pbuh) NEVER made mistakes and I think this is inaccurate. Yes, they never sinned, but to say they never made mistakes goes against the Quran because we find many examples in the Quran of Prophets (pbuh) making little honest mistakes here and there.

Of course, they never sinned, but to say they did everything absolutely perfectly and never ever made even the slightest of mistakes is stretching it a bit.

wa salam

Edited by lotfilms
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^Imami scholars (such as Shaykh Mufeed and majority of his time) believed that Prophets (as) [except Muhammad (saw)] were not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their prophetic mission.

إن جميع أنبياء الله - صلوات الله عليهم - معصومون من الكبائر قبل النبوة وبعدها وما يستخف فاعله من الصغائر كلها، وأما ما كان من صغير لا يستخف فاعله فجائز وقوعه منهم قبل النبوة وعلى غير تعمد وممتنع منهم بعدها على كل حال، وهذا مذهب جمهور الإمامية، والمعتزلة بأسرها تخالف فيه.

Imams of Ahlul Bayt (as) were also not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their Imamah.

إن الأئمة القائمين مقام الأنبياء (ص) في تنفيذ الأحكام وإقامة الحدود وحفظ الشرائع وتأديب الأنام (1) معصومون كعصمة الأنبياء، وإنهم لا يجوز منهم صغيرة إلا ما قدمت ذكر جوازه على الأنبياء

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi
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^Imami scholars (such as Shaykh Mufeed and majority of his time) believed that Prophets (as) [except Muhammad (saw)] were not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their prophetic mission.

Åä ÌãíÚ ÃäÈíÇÁ Çááå - ÕáæÇÊ Çááå Úáíåã - ãÚÕæãæä ãä ÇáßÈÇÆÑ ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÈÚÏåÇ æãÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ãä ÇáÕÛÇÆÑ ßáåÇ¡ æÃãÇ ãÇ ßÇä ãä ÕÛíÑ áÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ÝÌÇÆÒ æÞæÚå ãäåã ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÚáì ÛíÑ ÊÚãÏ æããÊäÚ ãäåã ÈÚÏåÇ Úáì ßá ÍÇá¡ æåÐÇ ãÐåÈ ÌãåæÑ ÇáÅãÇãíÉ¡ æÇáãÚÊÒáÉ ÈÃÓÑåÇ ÊÎÇáÝ Ýíå.

Imams of Ahlul Bayt (as) were also not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their Imamah.

Åä ÇáÃÆãÉ ÇáÞÇÆãíä ãÞÇã ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ (Õ) Ýí ÊäÝíÐ ÇáÃÍßÇã æÅÞÇãÉ ÇáÍÏæÏ æÍÝÙ ÇáÔÑÇÆÚ æÊÃÏíÈ ÇáÃäÇã (1) ãÚÕæãæä ßÚÕãÉ ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ¡ æÅäåã áÇ íÌæÒ ãäåã ÕÛíÑÉ ÅáÇ ãÇ ÞÏãÊ ÐßÑ ÌæÇÒå Úáì ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ

w/s

(bismillah)

References please. As well as opposing views around this time period?

Jazakallah.

(salam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

^Imami scholars (such as Shaykh Mufeed and majority of his time) believed that Prophets (as) [except Muhammad (saw)] were not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their prophetic mission.

Åä ÌãíÚ ÃäÈíÇÁ Çááå - ÕáæÇÊ Çááå Úáíåã - ãÚÕæãæä ãä ÇáßÈÇÆÑ ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÈÚÏåÇ æãÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ãä ÇáÕÛÇÆÑ ßáåÇ¡ æÃãÇ ãÇ ßÇä ãä ÕÛíÑ áÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ÝÌÇÆÒ æÞæÚå ãäåã ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÚáì ÛíÑ ÊÚãÏ æããÊäÚ ãäåã ÈÚÏåÇ Úáì ßá ÍÇá¡ æåÐÇ ãÐåÈ ÌãåæÑ ÇáÅãÇãíÉ¡ æÇáãÚÊÒáÉ ÈÃÓÑåÇ ÊÎÇáÝ Ýíå.

Imams of Ahlul Bayt (as) were also not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their Imamah.

Åä ÇáÃÆãÉ ÇáÞÇÆãíä ãÞÇã ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ (Õ) Ýí ÊäÝíÐ ÇáÃÍßÇã æÅÞÇãÉ ÇáÍÏæÏ æÍÝÙ ÇáÔÑÇÆÚ æÊÃÏíÈ ÇáÃäÇã (1) ãÚÕæãæä ßÚÕãÉ ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ¡ æÅäåã áÇ íÌæÒ ãäåã ÕÛíÑÉ ÅáÇ ãÇ ÞÏãÊ ÐßÑ ÌæÇÒå Úáì ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ

w/s

Interesting, interesting stuff brother jazakallhu khair.

It's very interesting to see the differences between the early scholars and the current scholars.

wa salam

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(salam)

^Imami scholars (such as Shaykh Mufeed and majority of his time) believed that Prophets (as) [except Muhammad (saw)] were not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their prophetic mission.

Åä ÌãíÚ ÃäÈíÇÁ Çááå - ÕáæÇÊ Çááå Úáíåã - ãÚÕæãæä ãä ÇáßÈÇÆÑ ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÈÚÏåÇ æãÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ãä ÇáÕÛÇÆÑ ßáåÇ¡ æÃãÇ ãÇ ßÇä ãä ÕÛíÑ áÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ÝÌÇÆÒ æÞæÚå ãäåã ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÚáì ÛíÑ ÊÚãÏ æããÊäÚ ãäåã ÈÚÏåÇ Úáì ßá ÍÇá¡ æåÐÇ ãÐåÈ ÌãåæÑ ÇáÅãÇãíÉ¡ æÇáãÚÊÒáÉ ÈÃÓÑåÇ ÊÎÇáÝ Ýíå.

Imams of Ahlul Bayt (as) were also not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their Imamah.

Åä ÇáÃÆãÉ ÇáÞÇÆãíä ãÞÇã ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ (Õ) Ýí ÊäÝíÐ ÇáÃÍßÇã æÅÞÇãÉ ÇáÍÏæÏ æÍÝÙ ÇáÔÑÇÆÚ æÊÃÏíÈ ÇáÃäÇã (1) ãÚÕæãæä ßÚÕãÉ ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ¡ æÅäåã áÇ íÌæÒ ãäåã ÕÛíÑÉ ÅáÇ ãÇ ÞÏãÊ ÐßÑ ÌæÇÒå Úáì ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ

w/s

In the opinion of al-Mufeed, were the Prophet (pbuh) and A'immah (as) protected from mistakes during their time as hujjah? Other prophets weren't, but was the exception made for them?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

(salam)

In the opinion of al-Mufeed, were the Prophet (pbuh) and A'immah (as) protected from mistakes during their time as hujjah? Other prophets weren't, but was the exception made for them?

I'd like to hear this and I would love to hear ahadith from the Imams (as) about this.

Because whenever I look at 66:1 and a couple other verses, it looks like Allah(swt) is gently correcting Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for a slight mistake. Obviously he didn't sin, but he appears to have done a couple things that he shouldn't have been doing (like praying too much or fasting too much) out of love of Allah(swt) but then Allah(swt) corrects him. It appears to show that he didn't do every little thing 100% completely perfectly; he was the most perfect human being but to say he never made a single honest mistake in his life appears to contradict the Quran.

Unless of course there are sahih ahadith from the Imam (as) that say that he never made a mistake.

wa salam

Edited by lotfilms
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  • Advanced Member

(bismillah)

(salam)

This appears to say that he forgot:

And we know in Islam, you don't get punished if your sincerely forgot.

Also, he was tricked by the shaytan(la)

We find a lot of Shia saying that the Prophets (pbuh) NEVER made mistakes and I think this is inaccurate. Yes, they never sinned, but to say they never made mistakes goes against the Quran because we find many examples in the Quran of Prophets (pbuh) making little honest mistakes here and there.

Of course, they never sinned, but to say they did everything absolutely perfectly and never ever made even the slightest of mistakes is stretching it a bit.

wa salam

so am I right to say that the Holy Prophet is exceptional and also the 14 Imams?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

so am I right to say that the Holy Prophet is exceptional and also the 14 Imams?

Of course the Prophet (pbuh) and the 12 Imams (as) are exceptional. The Prophet (pbuh) was the most perfect human being and the Imams (as) were among the most perfect people in the history of mankind and they have all been exalted over God's creation.

When we miss Salatul Layl, we don't think of it as a big deal, but if they missed Salatul Layl, it would be a big catastrophe to them because of how much importance they put in their worship. I remember reading a hadith from an Imam (as) that said something along the lines of "The Prophet (pbuh) used to seek forgiveness from Allah 70 times a day, even though he never sinned!"

Without a doubt, the Prophet (pbuh), Fatimah al-Zahra (as) and the 12 Imams (as) are amongst the most exceptional of God's creations.

The only question I have is whether they might have made little mistakes here and there. Of course, these mistakes didn't take away from their greatness at all.

And it wasn't that the Prophet or the Imams COULDN'T sin. It's that they DIDN'T . Their iman was so high that they didn't dare disobey Allah(swt) even in the slightest of ways.

wa salam

Edited by lotfilms
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  • Advanced Member

The infallibility of Imams (as) is same as the infallibility of Prophets (as) except Muhammad (saw). The infallibility of Prophet Muhammad (saw) is of higher degree than other Prophets and Imams as he (saw) was protected from the minor sins even before the time of his prophetic mission. This a/c to Mufeed (ar) is the belief of Imamiyah.

(salam)

In the opinion of al-Mufeed, were the Prophet (pbuh) and A'immah (as) protected from mistakes during their time as hujjah? Other prophets weren't, but was the exception made for them?

If you mean mistakes/negligence/forgetfulness related to religious duty, then a/c to Shaykh Mufeed (ar), all Prophets (as) and Imams (as) are protected from such mistakes during the time as hujjah.

However, Shaykh Saduq (ar) and his teacher Shaykh Muhammad b. Hasan al- Walid (ar) believed in the absentmindedness (sahv) or forgetfulness (nisyan) of Prophet (saw) and Imams (as). Shaykh Saduq mentioned an authentic hadith in al-Faqih related to this:

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi
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The infallibility of Imams (as) is same as the infallibility of Prophets (as) except Muhammad (saw). The infallibility of Prophet Muhammad (saw) is of higher degree than other Prophets and Imams as he (saw) was protected from the minor sins even before the start of his prophetic mission. This a/c to Mufeed (ar) is the belief of Imamiyah.

How about Isa (as) whos Nubuwa started from birth?

How Imam Mahdi (as) whom was Imam at age 3?

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(salam)

Imams of Ahlul Bayt were also not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their Imamah.

Is there ahadith to prove this? Because to be honest, if a scholar says something that does not seem to go in line with Qur'an and ahadith, then I will not take it into account without proof.

As far as I know, the Qur'an itself says that the Ahlulbayt is infallible. To be part of the Ahlulbayt doesn't require them to be an Imam. So to infer that they committed any sins at all is false because it says in the Qur'an that they are free of sin and all impurities. They do not sin in their life ever, whether minor or major (period).

wa salaam

Edited by YaZahra
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