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In the Name of God بسم الله

How Different Are Lebanon's Martyrs From Our Own?

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Salaam

An interesting thought is: are hizbullah a religious party covered with nationalistic symbols, or are they a nationalistic party covered in religious garb...?

The article by Austin Mackell reports:

Hezbollah's secretary general Hassan Nasrallah take time to point out that they honoured that day not just their fighters, but all who had died defending the Lebanese nation, thereby including the Christians, communists and other fighters that participated in the struggle?

What is this nonsense? HezbAllah, despite its name (Party of Allah) is mired in nationalism. They parade with the Lebanese flag, sit in the Lebanese parliament and even share power in its kufr Government. No wonder its original founders have disowned them!

Nationalism is not - and never can be - a part of Islam. It's like pork, riba and zina: haraam. The Holy Prophet (S), who was not known for using such language usually, compared nationalism to maggots crawling around in camel dung. He (S) used such graphic language to indicate his extreme disgust with this phenomenon.

Please note that I am NOT asserting that it is prohibited to defend oneself against enemies (especially against Israeli imperialism). But that is NOT the same as the Godless ideology of nationalism. HezbAllah will never achieve any lasting good until it breaks from this ideology and resolves to base itself SOLELY on the Aqeeda (basic beliefs)of Islam - its Qur'an and Sunna

Nor do I deny that HezbAllah has countless courageous martyrs, who died with the intention of serving Allah (SWT). But my point is that HezbAllah does not honour these martyrs by refusing to break from nationalism, which is 100% based in kufr. This is NOT the same as saying that HezbAllah and its members and leaders are kuffar, simply that the organisation is animated in part by ideas alien to Islam. It is Allah (SWT) alone who decides who is a kafir, based on their intentions.

* We're often told that Islam promotes a 'martyrdom culture' completely foreign to our humanist, life-celebrating tradition. After spending Remembrance Day in Beirut, Austin G Mackell is not so sure

It's the eleventh of the eleventh. A few thousand people are gathered in an auditorium to remember those lost in battle. The front few rows are reserved for veterans, a small roped-off section for journalists tucked behind them, followed by row upon row of ordinary people who have come to pay their respects. Behind the stage are pictures of the fallen, leaders and ordinary fighters, one of them has such young features — he couldn't have been more than a teenager. Alongside the pictures of the fallen are some doves in flight and the image of a nameless fighter, a rifle hanging from his shoulders and a floppy hat upon his head, silhouetted against a blue sky with a scattering of puffy white clouds.

A prayer is read. A commander barks orders and the band starts up (it does not play Waltzing Matilda). They march their way to the front to the rhythm of a boisterous military tune. The music stops long enough for a wreath to be laid. Every one stands for the national anthem, then sits down and readies themselves for the over-long speeches praising the courage of those who made the ultimate sacrifice so that we may live in peace.

The scene is Martyrs' Day, held yearly in Lebanon on 11 November to mark the anniversary of the 1982 suicide mission of Ahmad Jaafar Qassir, the baby-faced killer who was pictured behind the stage. At 10 minutes to seven in the morning, as Israeli soldiers were returning from night patrols, the 19-year-old Qassir drove a Peugeot loaded with explosives to the Tyre headquarters of the Israeli military's occupation force in south Lebanon, killing 75 soldiers, border policemen, and Shin Bet agents as well as an unconfirmed number of Lebanese (probably between 14-27) being held prisoner within. It was the first of a long string of suicide attacks, that along with conventional guerrilla war tactics and international and internal pressure on the Israeli government, lead to the withdrawal of Israeli forces from almost all Lebanese territory in 2000.

It can be assumed that the date of the attack was not chosen to coincide with the "Remembrance Day" that we celebrate, and so the timing of the ceremony can be thought of as a coincidence. However the other similarities — the flowers, the marching band, the elevation of sacrifice — cannot be so easily dismissed.

Many so-called experts on the Middle East like to go on at length about an obsession with martyrdom that they say is unique to Islam. Once they've finished denouncing the depravity of this position, they generally use it as a reason why negotiation is impossible: You can't talk to these people — they're crazy. You can read such rants, here and here. These accounts usually fail to mention the fact that suicide bombing was a tactic pioneered by the primarily Hindu Tamil Tigers. They also fail to mention the culture of celebrating martyrs present in all societies, and indeed their own.

There is nothing foreign or incomprehensible about honouring those who died for their country. It's what we in Australia do as a nation twice a year. On ANZAC Day, in which I have marched many times wearing my grandfather's medals, rememberance of the dead is only part of the ceremony — the part where we lower the flags as the march passes the cenotaph — but on Remembrance Day it is the main event.

Some may object to this comparison, saying that the promises of paradise and virgins fed to the young Muslim men and women who choose to become human delivery systems for rudimentary but powerful bombs rob their actions of the respectability of those who died for the secular cause of their nation. Why then does it say on my grandfather's Military Cross "for God and Empire"? And, if martyrdom is such a Muslim thing, why, when he spoke to the Martyr's Day crowd, did Hezbollah's secretary general Hassan Nasrallah take time to point out that they honoured that day not just their fighters, but all who had died defending the Lebanese nation, thereby including the Christians, communists and other fighters that participated in the struggle?

The truth is that in both cases there is a mix of nationalist and religious symbolism used to justify these sacrifices. Hezbollah and their supporters may emphasise the religious element more than we do, but existing as they do in a much more religious society, it would be strange if they did not. That greater emphasis seems to me, however, to be more a difference in symbolism and rhetoric than one of emotional content, which fundamentally celebrates the same thing.

People who would cling to the idea that our martyrs are different to theirs may argue that suicide bombers do not, as such, die fighting — rather they fight by dying. But in Lebanon the term martyr is not reserved for suicide bombers, it applies to all who die for the cause. Besides, does choosing to fight with little or no chance at personal survival make your act less heroic? The number of Victoria Crosses awarded posthumously suggests Australians don't think so.

Of course it is not just Australia and Hezbollah who dedicate a day each year to their fallen. There are martyrs days in India, Burma, Panama, Uganda, Tibet, Kashmir Azerbaijan and other places. As Baruch Kimmerling writes in his article on Israel's own culture of martyrdom "Nations like to imagine themselves as unique, but one belief they have in common is that it is noble to die in their name."

To be fair, however, I must admit I have been focussing so far on the similarities, rather than the differences between these two traditions, and there were differences. There was no one minute's silence for the fallen — on the contrary there were times when the crowd rose to its feet and began chanting slogans. The wreath, rather tackily, was a Hezbollah flag composed of yellow flowers and green plastic. Nasrallah's speech was far longer and more overtly political than would have been acceptable at an Australian Remembrance Day ceremony. And the marching band weren't that good.

The difference that struck me most however, was the absence of a reference to "our brave young men and women" fighting today on the battlefields of some far-off country. This difference, of course, can be attributed to the fact that Hezbollah's fighters, unlike Australia's soldiers, are not, at time of writing at least, waging war against anyone.

http://newmatilda.com/2009/11/18/how-different-are-lebanons-martyrs-our-own

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Salaam

An interesting thought is: are hizbullah a religious party covered with nationalistic symbols, or are they a nationalistic party covered in religious garb...?

The article by Austin Mackell reports:

Hezbollah's secretary general Hassan Nasrallah take time to point out that they honoured that day not just their fighters, but all who had died defending the Lebanese nation, thereby including the Christians, communists and other fighters that participated in the struggle?

What is this nonsense? HezbAllah, despite its name (Party of Allah) is mired in nationalism. They parade with the Lebanese flag, sit in the Lebanese parliament and even share power in its kufr Government. No wonder its original founders have disowned them!

Nationalism is not - and never can be - a part of Islam. It's like pork, riba and zina: haraam. The Holy Prophet (S), who was not known for using such language usually, compared nationalism to maggots crawling around in camel dung. He (S) used such graphic language to indicate his extreme disgust with this phenomenon.

Please note that I am NOT asserting that it is prohibited to defend oneself against enemies (especially against Israeli imperialism). But that is NOT the same as the Godless ideology of nationalism. HezbAllah will never achieve any lasting good until it breaks from this ideology and resolves to base itself SOLELY on the Aqeeda (basic beliefs)of Islam - its Qur'an and Sunna

Nor do I deny that HezbAllah has countless courageous martyrs, who died with the intention of serving Allah (SWT). But my point is that HezbAllah does not honour these martyrs by refusing to break from nationalism, which is 100% based in kufr. This is NOT the same as saying that HezbAllah and its members and leaders are kuffar, simply that the organisation is animated in part by ideas alien to Islam. It is Allah (SWT) alone who decides who is a kafir, based on their intentions.

* We're often told that Islam promotes a 'martyrdom culture' completely foreign to our humanist, life-celebrating tradition. After spending Remembrance Day in Beirut, Austin G Mackell is not so sure

It's the eleventh of the eleventh. A few thousand people are gathered in an auditorium to remember those lost in battle. The front few rows are reserved for veterans, a small roped-off section for journalists tucked behind them, followed by row upon row of ordinary people who have come to pay their respects. Behind the stage are pictures of the fallen, leaders and ordinary fighters, one of them has such young features — he couldn't have been more than a teenager. Alongside the pictures of the fallen are some doves in flight and the image of a nameless fighter, a rifle hanging from his shoulders and a floppy hat upon his head, silhouetted against a blue sky with a scattering of puffy white clouds.

A prayer is read. A commander barks orders and the band starts up (it does not play Waltzing Matilda). They march their way to the front to the rhythm of a boisterous military tune. The music stops long enough for a wreath to be laid. Every one stands for the national anthem, then sits down and readies themselves for the over-long speeches praising the courage of those who made the ultimate sacrifice so that we may live in peace.

The scene is Martyrs' Day, held yearly in Lebanon on 11 November to mark the anniversary of the 1982 suicide mission of Ahmad Jaafar Qassir, the baby-faced killer who was pictured behind the stage. At 10 minutes to seven in the morning, as Israeli soldiers were returning from night patrols, the 19-year-old Qassir drove a Peugeot loaded with explosives to the Tyre headquarters of the Israeli military's occupation force in south Lebanon, killing 75 soldiers, border policemen, and Shin Bet agents as well as an unconfirmed number of Lebanese (probably between 14-27) being held prisoner within. It was the first of a long string of suicide attacks, that along with conventional guerrilla war tactics and international and internal pressure on the Israeli government, lead to the withdrawal of Israeli forces from almost all Lebanese territory in 2000.

It can be assumed that the date of the attack was not chosen to coincide with the "Remembrance Day" that we celebrate, and so the timing of the ceremony can be thought of as a coincidence. However the other similarities — the flowers, the marching band, the elevation of sacrifice — cannot be so easily dismissed.

Many so-called experts on the Middle East like to go on at length about an obsession with martyrdom that they say is unique to Islam. Once they've finished denouncing the depravity of this position, they generally use it as a reason why negotiation is impossible: You can't talk to these people — they're crazy. You can read such rants, here and here. These accounts usually fail to mention the fact that suicide bombing was a tactic pioneered by the primarily Hindu Tamil Tigers. They also fail to mention the culture of celebrating martyrs present in all societies, and indeed their own.

There is nothing foreign or incomprehensible about honouring those who died for their country. It's what we in Australia do as a nation twice a year. On ANZAC Day, in which I have marched many times wearing my grandfather's medals, rememberance of the dead is only part of the ceremony — the part where we lower the flags as the march passes the cenotaph — but on Remembrance Day it is the main event.

Some may object to this comparison, saying that the promises of paradise and virgins fed to the young Muslim men and women who choose to become human delivery systems for rudimentary but powerful bombs rob their actions of the respectability of those who died for the secular cause of their nation. Why then does it say on my grandfather's Military Cross "for God and Empire"? And, if martyrdom is such a Muslim thing, why, when he spoke to the Martyr's Day crowd, did Hezbollah's secretary general Hassan Nasrallah take time to point out that they honoured that day not just their fighters, but all who had died defending the Lebanese nation, thereby including the Christians, communists and other fighters that participated in the struggle?

The truth is that in both cases there is a mix of nationalist and religious symbolism used to justify these sacrifices. Hezbollah and their supporters may emphasise the religious element more than we do, but existing as they do in a much more religious society, it would be strange if they did not. That greater emphasis seems to me, however, to be more a difference in symbolism and rhetoric than one of emotional content, which fundamentally celebrates the same thing.

People who would cling to the idea that our martyrs are different to theirs may argue that suicide bombers do not, as such, die fighting — rather they fight by dying. But in Lebanon the term martyr is not reserved for suicide bombers, it applies to all who die for the cause. Besides, does choosing to fight with little or no chance at personal survival make your act less heroic? The number of Victoria Crosses awarded posthumously suggests Australians don't think so.

Of course it is not just Australia and Hezbollah who dedicate a day each year to their fallen. There are martyrs days in India, Burma, Panama, Uganda, Tibet, Kashmir Azerbaijan and other places. As Baruch Kimmerling writes in his article on Israel's own culture of martyrdom "Nations like to imagine themselves as unique, but one belief they have in common is that it is noble to die in their name."

To be fair, however, I must admit I have been focussing so far on the similarities, rather than the differences between these two traditions, and there were differences. There was no one minute's silence for the fallen — on the contrary there were times when the crowd rose to its feet and began chanting slogans. The wreath, rather tackily, was a Hezbollah flag composed of yellow flowers and green plastic. Nasrallah's speech was far longer and more overtly political than would have been acceptable at an Australian Remembrance Day ceremony. And the marching band weren't that good.

The difference that struck me most however, was the absence of a reference to "our brave young men and women" fighting today on the battlefields of some far-off country. This difference, of course, can be attributed to the fact that Hezbollah's fighters, unlike Australia's soldiers, are not, at time of writing at least, waging war against anyone.

http://newmatilda.com/2009/11/18/how-different-are-lebanons-martyrs-our-own

He should look up the history books. When the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) enetered into Medina he formed treaties with the Jews living in Medina in order to form a defense pact against outside agressors.

Nationalism and Islam are not incompatible. Forming defense pacts and treaties with non-Muslims is not anti Islamic

Edited by A true Sunni
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(salam)

lol funny ! , A white guy will teach Hezbollah how to practice Islam ...

Peace

You mean only Black guys can teach Hezbullah how to practice Islam? Or maybe Brown ones? lol

With all due respect to Lebanese struggle against Israeli occupation, Hezbullah's closeness and friendship with Communists and drug-lords is sickening. God knows best.

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What Hezbollah has done for Lebanon is nothing that nay government is able to do for us. They have done a lot to help repair the damage done by the Isralies. Where the government sites and does nothing to help the people who need it.

Though I have never heard that nationalism is bad in Islam. If it is then why are so many Sheikh with hezbollah then?

Also I do think it is funny that a gut from outside is going to try and tech Hezbollah Islam and the right way! 8(

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Also I do think it is funny that a gut from outside is going to try and tech Hezbollah Islam and the right way! 8(

In certain issues there is no boundary............especially when a group claims to be Islamist and represent Islam. And being allied with communists and some other outlaws has nothing to do with nationalism...Nationalism does not recommend you to get along with criminals and puppets, because criminals and puppets endanger the interests of a nation at first and more than anyone else in a country.

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You mean only Black guys can teach Hezbullah how to practice Islam? Or maybe Brown ones? lol

With all due respect to Lebanese struggle against Israeli occupation, Hezbullah's closeness and friendship with Communists and drug-lords is sickening. God knows best.

Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make these kind of statements, and then fail to back them up with any evidence?

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With all due respect to Lebanese struggle against Israeli occupation, Hezbullah's closeness and friendship with Communists and drug-lords is sickening. God knows best.

"God knows best",is a good mimetic. Don't ya think that Ur analysis is based on Ur own assumptions?A pretty biased one.

Edited by saba fatima naqvi
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Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make these kind of statements, and then fail to back them up with any evidence?

"But while most Lebanese acknowledge Hezbollah's leading role in fighting Israel, what many Lebanese consistently refer to as the "national resistance" is a broad coalition that includes virtually all of Lebanon's most important political forces, including Amal, the other main Shi'ite movement, the Lebanese Communist Party (LCP), other left groups and liberal democrats - and even the right-wing Free Patriotic Movement of General Michel Aoun."

"The LCP, a leftist secular party whose membership cuts across the confessional lines, has itself been very close to Hezbollah and fought alongside it in the frontlines in the south. According to Hadadeh, at least 12 LCP members and supporters died in the fighting."

Asia Times

btw: I never asked you to take me seriously... for your information, this is a political forum and anyone has the right to express his/her opinions. I always wonder that, why Hizb never issued a single statement to condemn Baath (communist) party's atrocities, Abdullah Saleh (socialist-communist) atrocities? Because, when it comes to Muslim world the party issues 100s of statements in favor Salafi movements in Palestine. Plus, I do not want to focus much on details and evidences and discussion like these to question the legitimacy of a group who did some good works for the country.

saba fatima naqvi "God knows best",is a good mimetic. Don't ya think that Ur analysis is based on Ur own assumptions?A pretty biased one.

I guess the last time I remember discussing something with you was about Ayatollahs presence in Afghanistan, where you did not even know that Shias were exist in your neighboring country. You could probably know what an 'analysis' mean when you know some stuffs about some things in some times in the future, I mean beyond the Karachi city.

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I guess the last time I remember discussing something with you was about Ayatollahs presence in Afghanistan, where you did not even know that Shias were exist in your neighboring country. You could probably know what an 'analysis' mean when you know some stuffs about some things in some times in the future, I mean beyond the Karachi city.

wow,up-to my great curiosity.Man,i don't even know who are ya?I never ever had any such kinda debate with ya.Anyways,ya might be suffering with dementia that's why you're day dreaming that i ever had any discussion with ya.I don't mind that.Get yourself examined.You're just coming up with some lame excuses as i can easily see that you've nothing to backup Ur accusation with.

Edited by saba fatima naqvi
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So you have no evidence to back your claims?

Having an opinion is fine, but dont go around making wild statements as if they are FACTS, when it turns out you have no evidence to back them up, as that is slander.

What kind of evidence you are after? You did not read Asia Times reports I posted above? 12 communists were killed alongside Hezbollah? First, point out my accusation as you claim, then ask the type of evidence you need. Or you want me to physically book an airline ticket, go to Lebanon and collect physical evidence for ShiaChat forum? What we have as source of evidence, is the News, reports and what is available on the internet, this is the same with you too. Let me ask you this, do you have any evidence to proof otherwise? One more thing, you did not answer my question regarding 'Hizbollah never condemning Communist-Baathist Arabs atrocities against Shia civilians'.

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(salam)

someone5

"Irrespective of the fact that whether the "Maisaaq-e-Madina" [Peace Compact and Co operation Compact against external forces between Muslims and Jews of Madina under the leadership of Prophet (pbuh)] was complied or not, do you think that this was wrongly entered?

My brother it is easy to say something on the basis of surface based analysis but it is always hard to substantiate such allegations'

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(salam)

someone5

"Irrespective of the fact that whether the "Maisaaq-e-Madina" [Peace Compact and Co operation Compact against external forces between Muslims and Jews of Madina under the leadership of Prophet (pbuh)] was complied or not, do you think that this was wrongly entered?

My brother it is easy to say something on the basis of surface based analysis but it is always hard to substantiate such allegations'

(wasalam)

Brother! Prophet (pbuh) is followed as a guide, I agree, but in the right time and in the right manner as he did it. Lets not worship some groups in Iran or Lebanon because they did some good works. We should understand that "Leftists" are not our friends and never been. Today, in Iran, MKO (an extremist Leftists group) and Hezb-e Tudah (another Marxist group) are teaming up with Zionists and Jundullah Takfiris to target a Shia nation and bring down its government. Yesterday, in Iraq, the Baathist-communists killed Iraqis in 100s of thousands, targeted Shia Islam and in their war against Iran, everyone joined hands with them to target Islam.....even that Soviet Union and the West were fighting each others during the Cold War, but in Iraq-Iran war they had one goal. In Yemen, today, the socialists government who harbors 100s of Iraqi Baathists criminals and Alqaida are killing poor Shia Muslims in the north, while West is helping them...............Saudi Arabia, West and Alqaida are joining them.....CAN'T you see the message there? I don't see any benefit of getting close to communist parties who entirely reject religion, declare "religion and God" as the main source of problems for human society, following Carl Marx and Stalin's scriptures..etc... lets do not mix things, and lets not jump to conclusion before understanding the points...

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  • Advanced Member

You mean only Black guys can teach Hezbullah how to practice Islam? Or maybe Brown ones? lol

With all due respect to Lebanese struggle against Israeli occupation, Hezbullah's closeness and friendship with Communists and drug-lords is sickening. God knows best.

The only reason for the opening post is that - Hezbullah has delivered a death blow to the western imperialism and IT is something that Israel fears, something that supporters of West hate.

So they Slander Hezbullah from inside and make us look down on Hazbullah.

The fool who insult our intelligence should think again.

What has they done for Islam ? Can he do better than Hezbullah - IF NOT than SHUT UP.

Edited by Ali Fazel
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