Mutah Marriage

[Awakened 17]

Salam

Guys I would appreciate because I don't trust what both Sunni and Shia have inherited, that when you bring a point, bring it from Quran. If you want to use the argument that it's ok to get slaves for the sole purpose of sex, then do so by Quran, and then also show how that changes anything about the definition of either of these two things in 5:55 that I mentioned. If Quran says not to seek for just lust and sex from believers and ahlul-kitab, then please don't say, but it's allowed to do that by this and that (and is not found with basis in Quran). Slaves serve the house, get work done, help out, etc.. In fact, isn't there a verse saying not to force slaves to sex with people when they want to remain chaste? So where does that leave buy for sex then sell to another guy for sex thing?

MacIsaac, for years, on forums, everywhere, I argued for Muta. I use sunni hadiths, I knew Shia hadiths supported it, I never had anything against it myself... I don't wish to go against what Thaqalain say, but I know the Quran is protected and I know our hadiths are not all Sahih... So you can say this is what Imams (as) taught but there is many contradictions I find that people say Imams (as) taught with Quran (for example, Quran teaching to show people what is revealed and not hide it)...

I know Shias have a hard time calling a spade a spade. I will show you here. Giving wealth away in Quran seeking God's face is said to be Zakat. It makes one pure or keeps one pure. Sadaqa also includes by definition (see the verse of what Sadaqa is for) giving money in the way of God also, that ameelan alayha are included... Khums as taught by Shias, would definely fit both Sadaqa and Zakat no matter if you say this 1/5, this is that, this for this, this for that, it by definition remains that and is so clear that it can't be any clearer. But they will never realize and see it completely different things.

Now seeking some time with a women just to have sex and then leaving here, this is what defines the thing. Not that it is illegal, whatever, this is the defintion here is what is haram, it's not that it's deemed haram that defines it. So adding different things to it but not changing in essence what that is, will not change it. You can recite the intention of doing, won't change it, you can give money for it, won't change it, and you can wait sometime just incase fo a kid, and it won't change it from that definition.

Same with seeking secret love relationship.

What does it do a difference to their form when the definition is both what they did and what Muta is.

Also regarding secret relationship. You know I read verses about if we turn on our backs, they will do fasad and cut of our relationships. And you know sometimes you lay down seeds, and one day, one day, they must just all begin to sproud. Future time, and imagine people having marriages without parents knowing, without brothers knowing, they have kids, and the Grandparents have no idea they have these grandkids and uncles have no idea of their neices and everyone just doesn't care for these relationships. Nothing Wrong! Why not! It's allowed to keep relationship secret! O but you need permission for first marriage? Ok, so what if people plan divorce, fight loop holes, or even, do muta by permission (it becomes socially acceptabel, parents easily say yes like parents in west allow dating), and people do muta, and then also get married without people knowing, etc....

Now this ugly image thankfully is not here, but you realize these things can become norm...

You can't see how this keeping marriage secret would be cutting off relationship and what is Ehsan to parents and relatives when you don't let them even know your married, getting kids, etc... This is called cutting off what God has commanded for their be connection, Allah (swt) wants family, friends, relationships, this is why marriage no doubt has to be known by people.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Awakened

[Mohammed-W 2]

That Shariah then lays down seeds that if ever sprouted can destroy society and one of the essential functions of family (ie. if this ever becomes acceptable by people and people do it). If they have a believing family, they should know. It's the stupidest thing imagine your duaghter or sister or brother or son married and you got no idea. Most ridiculous thing ever.

Even if disbelievers, maybe you don't need their permission, by they sure have a right to know!

agreed .

its all shameful lewdness.

Salam

Guys I would appreciate because I don't trust what both Sunni and Shia have inherited, that when you bring a point, bring it from Quran. If you want to use the argument that it's ok to get slaves for the sole purpose of sex, then do so by Quran, and then also show how that changes anything about the definition of either of these two things in 5:55 that I mentioned.

MacIsaac, for years, on forums, everywhere, I argued for Muta. I use sunni hadiths, I knew Shia hadiths supported it, I never had anything against it myself... I don't wish to go against what Thaqalain say, but I know the Quran is protected and I know our hadiths are not all Sahih... So you can say this is what Imams (as) taught but there is many contradictions I find that people say Imams (as) taught with Quran (for example, Quran teaching to show people what is revealed and not hide it)...

I know Shias have a hard time calling a spade a spade. I will show you here. Giving wealth away in Quran seeking God's face is said to be Zakat. It makes one pure or keeps one pure. Sadaqa also includes by definition (see the verse of what Sadaqa is for) giving money in the way of God also, that ameelan alayha are included... Khums as taught by Shias, would definely fit both Sadaqa and Zakat no matter if you say this 1/5, this is that, this for this, this for that, it by definition remains that and is so clear that it can't be any clearer. But they will never realize and see it completely different things.

Now seeking some time with a women just to have sex and then leaving here, this is what defines the thing. Not that it is illegal, whatever, this is the defintion here is what is haram, it's not that it's deemed haram that defines it. So adding different things to it but not changing in essence what that is, will not change it. You can recite the intention of doing, won't change it, you can give money for it, won't change it, and you can wait sometime just incase fo a kid, and it won't change it from that definition.

Same with seeking secret love relationship.

I don't care what their form of that was, but the definition is both what they did and what Muta is.

Also regarding secret relationship. You know I read verses about if we turn on our backs, they will do fasad and cut of our relationships. And you know sometimes you lay down seeds, and one day, one day, they must just all begin to sproud. Future time, and imagine people having marriages without parents knowing, without brothers knowing, they have kids, and the Grandparents have no idea they have these grandkids and uncles have no idea of their neices and everyone just doesn't care for these relationships. Nothing Wrong! Why not! It's allowed to keep relationship secret! O but you need permission for first marriage? Ok, so what if people plan divorce, fight loop holes, or even, do muta by permission (it becomes socially acceptabel, parents easily say yes like parents in west allow dating), and people do muta, and then also get married without people knowing, etc....

Now this ugly image thankfully is not here, but you realize these things can become norm...

You can't see how this keeping marriage secret would be cutting off relationship and what is Ehsan to parents and relatives when you don't let them even know your married, getting kids, etc... This is called cutting off what God has commanded for their be connection, Allah (swt) wants family, friends, relationships, this is why marriage no doubt has to be known by people.

(salam)

if you get the time brother please read my thread called whats the point in permanent marriage i am trying to do the exact same thing understand from quran first.

[Awakened 17]

BTw - how the heck can you keep a marriage secret?

You don't live in the same house, or not let anyone know you live in the same house?

You meet up secretly... I really don't even see how it's even possible for marriage by it's nature of what is for it not to be public. If it was possible that you don't need to mantain wife or kids, then why would quran says for those whom can't afford to marry(nikah)? Obviously marriage implies there is some responsibility of providing for example and is not just "sex" contract sorry to say! (and relatives of wives would at least need to know that you maintaining for the wife, or else you taking money from them if they provide for her (obviously they won't let her not be provided for!)).

Look at the things that is good for society to have - where does it leave room for this keep marriage a secret? Families won't visit each other? Brothers won't know their brother in law.. Father will not whom his offspring is lving with at all? Think about it! This is the establishing the rights of raham? This is not disconnection relationship (uncles not knowing of neices, etc)!

Allahul mustaan!

Edited December 1, 2009 by Awakened

[Zahra Ruhullah 3]

(salam)

How practical is the word "slave" to today's modern society? Is there a new term say for example. a maid?

4. Apart from Mutah marriage is there any other thing/practice which was allowed initially but later on it was rejected? I tried to find out but i could not find any. If you find any please tell me.

Sunnis' version of Mutah marriage is their Misyaar marriage. But that is still practiced by some... while some shunned it.

But shar'an it's not obligatory that family or people should know about your permanent marriage. So permanent marriage can also be kept as secret as temporary marriage.

It's not obligatory ..fair enough, but how long would one keep from his family or friends that he's married? It's like morally bad, the fact that any application forms you filled up will want to ask if you're married or not.. its a public thing. being socially aware of one's status ie.

[Abdaal 2]

With the legalization of Muta can't I get away with Zina ? For example If I commuted zina, and to cover my sin I tell the authority that I have done it under muta. Is this good enough of an excuse to defend my case ? How can the community take action against my transgression ?

[89jghur32 516]

Misyaar is not the same thing as Mut'a.

[Zahra Ruhullah 3]

Misyaar is not the same thing as Mut'a.

for all I know it's a contractual marriage which has a divorce 'function'.

[89jghur32 516]

for all I know it's a contractual marriage which has a divorce 'function'.

What does that even mean? Amongst the Sunni fuqaha, the Hanafis permit divorce only as a last resort while the Shafi'is, Malikis and Hanbalis permit it regardless of the circumstances. So, Misyaar having a divorce function doesn't matter.

Misyaar is a restricted marriage. Its completed the same way as a normal marriage is, except that the contract usually includes mutual cessation of rights or privileges possibly at the behest of a guardian (father, uncle, etc). For example, the couple may give up their rights to spend the night together at each other's places, possibly at the request of the wife's father who may not want it at the time. Of course, I'm not sure how often this is practiced. However, misyaar is not a fixed term marriage. We do not have such a thing.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that Mut'a would find its way into a religion like Islam. However, if there is such a thing, then only Allah knows the wisdom behind it and I cannot understand it. To me, it just seems like a way for a guy to get into a girl's pants with very little binding commitment, which is what makes it so appealing. I apologize for the language.

[Righteous 128]

questions from all the brilliant minds here

a) Is sex with slaves allowed or not?

B) What is a permanent marriage? Is it permanent because it cannot be broken? Is it permanent because an end date is not mentioned? Is there not termination possibility in it?

the first part will take care of "mut'a" promotes fornication argument. Sex by itself is the same in and out of marriage, what makes it halaal or haraam is mere saying of "I do" by both parties involved and following the rules set by God. Purely on logical grounds, the difference between Mut'a and (so called) permanent marriage is two

1. There is a time bound termination in Mut'a and open termination clause in the regular marriage
   
2. There is no inheritance from the spouse
   

Now lets see what is common between the two

1. Nikah
   
2. Termination clause
   
3. Iddah
   
4. Legitimacy of children
   
5. sex
   
6. Children's rights
   

[Righteous 128]

With the legalization of Muta can't I get away with Zina ? For example If I commuted zina, and to cover my sin I tell the authority that I have done it under muta. Is this good enough of an excuse to defend my case ? How can the community take action against my transgression ?

Bro Abdaal. you are an intelligent man. Can you get away with Zina by claiming it to be Mut'a from God? In this world, who cares with whom I sleep and fornicate? Isn't the purpose to cover yourself for the hereafter?

[Abdaal 2]

You are correct on that fact. However, Islam also demands the society to have a justice system.

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,403]

Mutah is islamic 100% Islamic and i firmly believe that it provides solution for many psychological, social and mental problems. Every type of vulgarity is going on in our society but so much so even Shia communities are not ready to accept Mutah as a solution of these problems.

The problem with Mutah marriage is the same which is with some other things. We often presume our cultural values as Islamic principles. Our cultural values have dominated many Islamic principles. Mutah is Islamic but our society does not accept it hence its value is undermined. In Pakistan it is impossible for someone to enter into Muttah marriage because it is not recognized even by Shia communities. On the other hand at what stage of life i am, i firmly believe that Mutah marriage provides an Islamic and legitimate method to satisfy sexual desire. But with whom i can do this? Because my society does not recognize it and I can not even dare to talk about it with others.

But this is a harsh fact that i tried hard to keep my life on track and lead a real full Islamic life and it was only this sexual desire and need of nature which came in my way and stopped my path. It was the reason i mentioned my mental state in another thread "Jihad Bil Nafs".

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,403]

With the legalization of Muta can't I get away with Zina ? For example If I commuted zina, and to cover my sin I tell the authority that I have done it under muta. Is this good enough of an excuse to defend my case ? How can the community take action against my transgression ?

Brother you are leaving an important point here. You know there is requirement of four witnesses to prosecute some one for committing Zina but do not you think it is illogical that someone would commit this sin before four witnesses? There was wisdom behind this ruling that there should not be open sining before every one (Fasq). It means if you are doing Zina but there are no witness you are save in this world but you will face the punishment in the day of judgment.

You may cover your sin of Zina by saying the authority that you had entered into Mutah but what answer will you have before Allah in the day of Judgment? You can avoid the punishment of the authorities by concealing your sin by telling them that you have done something legal but you can not deceive Allah and merely this thing will never make a valid Mutah marriage illegal and unislamic

[Abdaal 2]

Exactly ! This why a person can get away with zina. If he or she is caught with fornication there is no way to prove a case against them. They can just lie and say they are doing muta. Also, this is why in Iran they added more rules for muta which doesn't exist in the Imami fiqh.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Abdaal

[.InshAllah. 1,562]

^Similarly they can claim that they got permanently married and zina could not be proven.

Apart from this, there are two things. The first is that most fuqaha require permission from the father of the virgin girl. So if this permission was not taken, and they were caught, this would be evidence of zina (a/c to the majority opinion). The second thing is, not all people will claim they were doing muta. Some people (a small minority) will not lie and accept the punishment out of repentance. Not all criminals plead not guilty when they are caught. In this way the punishment can serve as a purification for those who are repentant, and those who lie will be punished in akhira.

A third thing that Im not sure about (insh someone can clarify...) is the punishment for a women and man who commit fornication whilst the woman is in here iddah from a previous marriage. Is that fornication or adultery? If its the former then that would be another situation where the punishment for zina could be proven.

Edited December 1, 2009 by .InshAllah.

[Abdaal 2]

I'm sure its treated at fornication which means they get lashed.

[.InshAllah. 1,562]

Sayid khoie says (base on hadith below) that in the case irrevocable divorce during the iddah the punishment is the same as that of a non married person, ie lashing:

قال: سألت أبا عبدالله (عليه السلام) عن امرأة تزوّجت في عدّتها «فقال : إن كانت تزوّجت في عدّة طلاق لزوجها عليها الرجعة فإنّ عليها الرجم، وإن كانت تزوّجت في عدّة ليس لزوجها عليها الرجعة فإنّ عليها حدّ الزاني غير المحصن ، وإن كانت تزوّجت في عدّة بعد موت زوجها من قبل انقضاء الأربعة أشهر والعشرة أيّام فلا رجم عليها ، وعليها ضرب مائة جلدة» الحديث (2) .

http://www.alkhoei.com/arabic/pages/book.php?bcc=563&itg=46&bi=102&s=ct

So this is another case where zina can be proven.

Edited December 1, 2009 by .InshAllah.

[Bonafide Hustler 67]

Man I miss the old chatroom where some dude usernamed mutah man used to pop in and drive sisters insane aahahahahahahahahahah that was jokes.