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sayedzeeshan

Switzerland votes on Muslim minaret ban

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the real win win is to leave the west if you are a muslim.

or build your minaret when you have taken over the country. ( dark humour intended)

pay attention below for complete synthesis it may avert problem but like i said they did this in bosnia and it didnt work

You've got to be kidding me.

You think the Swiss government or Swiss people will be any more tolerant towards the "similar feats of architectural synthesis"? It's not the buildings they are fearful or insensitive towards, it's the people inside.

Why stop at buildings? Why don't immigrant Muslims in Western lands dye their hair blonde, change their names, change their accents, change their food preferences? Wouldn't all that work towards making our religion "more attractive"?

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it's their country. if they don't want minarets the muslims there can adapt to it or go somplace else. I don't see the big deal

No Problem,

But let them stop bragging about freedom and religous tolerance.

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(salam)

Personally, I wouldn't care if my mosque looks like the image below (gingerbread house).

diy%20homemade%20gingerbread%20house.png

Why would the Swiss wage a war against Minaret since it is not even an Islamic symbol. :wacko: Some folks over there must really be ignorant.

Edited by Zareen
adding spaces

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(salam)

Personally, I wouldn't care if my mosque looks like the image below (gingerbread house).

Like your house - it is verrry....Swiss looking :) and you would never go hungry.

Why would the Swiss wage a war against Minaret since it is not even an Islamic symbol. :wacko: Some folks over there must really be ignorant.

Muslims (formerly including me :blush: ) think it is an Islamic symbol so why would non-Muslims be any more aware.

Edited by Maryaam

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After really thinking this through, I have to say the situation is comical in a strange way. Very grim and rather infuriating, but kind of funny as well.

The only indirect thing I can say in support of the SPP is that through their own ethnocentrism, they might inadvertently chip away at Arab ethnocentrism (no offense, guys!)... I mean, a mosque doesn't have to look like something out of Aladdin and/or Saudi in order to be a legitimate and revered place of worship- it would be nice to see an evolution of design that reflects the diversity of the modern Muslim ummah- and minarets aren't functionally important as they once were. Of course, I'm gravely offended at the obvious implications... yes, minarets are beautiful and resplendent symbols of Islamic worship-centers and this ban is a clear (albeit throughly passive-agressive and wussified) effort to undermine what they represent, and yes, I'd love to see how the Swiss would react to a proposal to ban crosses or bell towers, but I'm almost grateful that this move has been made, because hatred made apparent is easier to resist than the kind that parades as tolerance.

I think we all know that architectural design clearly isn't the issue here, but I'm going to reserve my outrage for when those loonbats attempt to place a blanket ban on Muslim places of worship, period, or something similarly gutsy. I know they're probably thrilled with themselves over this, but it's going to take a lot more than forcing us to remodel buildings if they want to shake our resolve.

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Muslims should not be outraged over this decision since we need places of prayer and worship not minarets. After all the first minaret was constructed during the reign of the accursed Muawiyah. He, may Allah's curse be upon him and his fathers, encouraged the construction of minarets, as they were supposed to bring mosques on par with Christian churches with their bell towers.

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the muslims in switzerland are recent immigrants, the one in xian has and the hui people been there since nearly the begining of islam itself!

That mosque was first built in the 7th-8th centuries, though. Very early in the arrival of Muslims in China.

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It's not to do with the minarets so people reacting with either a "who cares?" or a "good for them, we shouldn't have minarets anyway" are missing the point. The point of this is that the Swiss people (yes, the people, not the government (for once)) have given Muslims a clear message that their "kind" is really not welcome there. Oh sure, if they'll just assimilate and give up their beliefs and practices, relegating religion to the background (if anywhere) like most of today's secularized Europeans, then fine. Otherwise, they aren't welcome. In a dark way I think this is actually good for Muslims, so that they see how hypocritical these people really are with all their nice talk of tolerance and openness. Just imagine the outrage there'd be if been legislation passed saying that synagogues would be disallowed from displaying menorahs or stars of David, putting up sinister looking posters of the hook nosed "kike" sticking a fork in the nation's flag devouring it's resources in his usurious greed.

To see Muslims though actually defending these anti-Muslims (not just "non-Muslims") is beyond the pale though. They've passed legislation targeting your houses of worship, with acts of vandalism being taken against them, and you have the gall to defend these people? Do you really think our Imam (as) would be happy with this, that you support kuffar in their display of spite against other Muslims? That you try to make excuses for them, saying that Muslims need integrate themselves to a culture that hates them? Are you really that hateful and ashamed of your own kind, desperate to separate yourself from them and ingratiate yourself to those who hate you and your religion? It disgusts me.

How true Allah's words are.

æóáóä ÊóÑúÖóì Úóäßó ÇáúíóåõæÏõ æóáÇó ÇáäøóÕóÇÑóì ÍóÊøóì ÊóÊøóÈöÚó ãöáøóÊóåõãú Þõáú Åöäøó åõÏóì Çááøåö åõæó ÇáúåõÏóì æóáóÆöäö ÇÊøóÈóÚúÊó ÃóåúæóÇÁåõã ÈóÚúÏó ÇáøóÐöí ÌóÇÁßó ãöäó ÇáúÚöáúãö ãóÇ áóßó ãöäó Çááøåö ãöä æóáöíøò æóáÇó äóÕöíÑò

Never will the Jews be satisfied with thee, neither the Christians, not till thou followest their religion. Say: 'Allah's guidance is the true guidance.' If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, thou shalt have against Allah neither guardian nor helper. (2:120)

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It's not to do with the minarets so people reacting with either a "who cares?" or a "good for them, we shouldn't have minarets anyway" are missing the point. The point of this is that the Swiss people (yes, the people, not the government (for once)) have given Muslims a clear message that their "kind" is really not welcome there. Oh sure, if they'll just assimilate and give up their beliefs and practices, relegating religion to the background (if anywhere) like most of today's secularized Europeans, then fine. Otherwise, they aren't welcome. In a dark way I think this is actually good for Muslims, so that they see how hypocritical these people really are with all their nice talk of tolerance and openness. Just imagine the outrage there'd be if been legislation passed saying that synagogues would be disallowed from displaying menorahs or stars of David, putting up sinister looking posters of the hook nosed "kike" sticking a fork in the nation's flag devouring it's resources in his usurious greed.

To see Muslims though actually defending these anti-Muslims (not just "non-Muslims") is beyond the pale though. They've passed legislation targeting your houses of worship, with acts of vandalism being taken against them, and you have the gall to defend these people? Do you really think our Imam (as) would be happy with this, that you support kuffar in their display of spite against other Muslims? That you try to make excuses for them, saying that Muslims need integrate themselves to a culture that hates them? Are you really that hateful and ashamed of your own kind, desperate to separate yourself from them and ingratiate yourself to those who hate you and your religion? It disgusts me.

How true Allah's words are.

وَلَن تَرْضَى عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى حَتَّى تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَى وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلاَ نَصِيرٍ

Never will the Jews be satisfied with thee, neither the Christians, not till thou followest their religion. Say: 'Allah's guidance is the true guidance.' If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, thou shalt have against Allah neither guardian nor helper. (2:120)

Macisaac, a sad reality is that they have grown to feel uncomfortable with us largely because of the intolerant and insular rantings of folks like you. This is the end consequence of the attitude of "Islam is the truth, everything else be damned, let's call a spade a spade and a dirty kaffir a dirty kaffir and to hell with what they think." If you openly speak of the people that surround you as najis animals, and go out of your way to not reach out to them, eventually they will begin to take offense. It's not rocket science, but simple human nature. We are largely reaping what we ourselves have sown.

Edited by kadhim

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Macisaac, a sad reality is that they have grown to feel uncomfortable with us largely because of the intolerant and insular rantings of folks like you. This is the end consequence of the attitude of "Islam is the truth, everything else be damned, let's call a spade a spade and a dirty kaffir a dirty kaffir and to hell with what they think." If you openly speak of the people that surround you as najis animals, and go out of your way to not reach out to them, eventually they will begin to take offense. It's not rocket science, but simple human nature. We are largely reaping what we ourselves have sown.

maybe that is your sad reality history records many reasons for the uncomfortable-ness you fondly describe, another perpective is hatred which have nothing to do with the attitude of muslims......since most dont live alongside them and get worse treatment.

so how about accepting accept what Allah says.

æóáóä ÊóÑúÖóì Úóäßó ÇáúíóåõæÏõ æóáÇó ÇáäøóÕóÇÑóì ÍóÊøóì ÊóÊøóÈöÚó ãöáøóÊóåõãú Þõáú Åöäøó åõÏóì Çááøåö åõæó ÇáúåõÏóì æóáóÆöäö ÇÊøóÈóÚúÊó ÃóåúæóÇÁåõã ÈóÚúÏó ÇáøóÐöí ÌóÇÁßó ãöäó ÇáúÚöáúãö ãóÇ áóßó ãöäó Çááøåö ãöä æóáöíøò æóáÇó äóÕöíÑò

Never will the Jews be satisfied with thee, neither the Christians, not till thou followest their religion. Say: 'Allah's guidance is the true guidance.' If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, thou shalt have against Allah neither guardian nor helper. (2:120)

what do you say after considering these verses?

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Macisaac, a sad reality is that they have grown to feel uncomfortable with us largely because of the intolerant and insular rantings of folks like you. This is the end consequence of the attitude of "Islam is the truth, everything else be damned, let's call a spade a spade and a dirty kaffir a dirty kaffir and to hell with what they think." If you openly speak of the people that surround you as najis animals, and go out of your way to not reach out to them, eventually they will begin to take offense. It's not rocket science, but simple human nature. We are largely reaping what we ourselves have sown.

They have always been intolerant of us. The actions of sunni extremists have only made it more apperant these days. They have ridiculed us and our beliefs for hundreds of years. They have put down Islam and muslims in every facet of their culture since the middle ages.

And by the way I did not notice Macisaac calling any one a dirty najis kaffir.

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Macisaac, a sad reality is that they have grown to feel uncomfortable with us largely because of the intolerant and insular rantings of folks like you. This is the end consequence of the attitude of "Islam is the truth, everything else be damned, let's call a spade a spade and a dirty kaffir a dirty kaffir and to hell with what they think." If you openly speak of the people that surround you as najis animals, and go out of your way to not reach out to them, eventually they will begin to take offense. It's not rocket science, but simple human nature. We are largely reaping what we ourselves have sown.

I am sorry but I cannot agree with you on this. Its the media hype and xenophobia at play here. Muslims, to my knowledge, haven't committed any acts of terror in Switzerland that the Swiss people (natives) should be afraid of them. I cannot imagine any sane person voting for such obviously foolish thing. It just shows that Switzerland needs some serious soul searching to do. I am just cringing at the thought of living at a place where minarets would be thought of as hostile.

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I am sorry but I cannot agree with you on this. Its the media hype and xenophobia at play here. Muslims, to my knowledge, haven't committed any acts of terror in Switzerland that the Swiss people (natives) should be afraid of them. I cannot imagine any sane person voting for such obviously foolish thing. It just shows that Switzerland needs some serious soul searching to do. I am just cringing at the thought of living at a place where minarets would be thought of as hostile.

the other possibility is that a lot of people didnt care enough to vote for it but enough cared to vote no.

besides this it seems some muslims show exact same behaviour as women who suffer domestic abuse...............they say love is blind maybe all the muslims are just "falling down the stairs",and "bumping into walls" all the time. :unsure:

Edited by Mohammed-W

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It's not to do with the minarets so people reacting with either a "who cares?" or a "good for them, we shouldn't have minarets anyway" are missing the point. The point of this is that the Swiss people (yes, the people, not the government (for once)) have given Muslims a clear message that their "kind" is really not welcome there. Oh sure, if they'll just assimilate and give up their beliefs and practices, relegating religion to the background (if anywhere) like most of today's secularized Europeans, then fine. Otherwise, they aren't welcome. In a dark way I think this is actually good for Muslims, so that they see how hypocritical these people really are with all their nice talk of tolerance and openness. Just imagine the outrage there'd be if been legislation passed saying that synagogues would be disallowed from displaying menorahs or stars of David, putting up sinister looking posters of the hook nosed "kike" sticking a fork in the nation's flag devouring it's resources in his usurious greed.

To see Muslims though actually defending these anti-Muslims (not just "non-Muslims") is beyond the pale though. They've passed legislation targeting your houses of worship, with acts of vandalism being taken against them, and you have the gall to defend these people? Do you really think our Imam (as) would be happy with this, that you support kuffar in their display of spite against other Muslims? That you try to make excuses for them, saying that Muslims need integrate themselves to a culture that hates them? Are you really that hateful and ashamed of your own kind, desperate to separate yourself from them and ingratiate yourself to those who hate you and your religion? It disgusts me.

How true Allah's words are.

وَلَن تَرْضَى عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى حَتَّى تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَى وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلاَ نَصِيرٍ

Never will the Jews be satisfied with thee, neither the Christians, not till thou followest their religion. Say: 'Allah's guidance is the true guidance.' If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, thou shalt have against Allah neither guardian nor helper. (2:120)

Any idea about rulings of Imami scholars regarding the height of the minaret?

How relevant is this hadith. . .

وبإسناده عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن البرقي ، عن النوفلي ، عن السكوني ، عن جعفر ، عن أبيه ، عن آبائه ( عليهم السلام ) ، أن علياً ( عليه السلام ) مر على منارة طويلة فأمر بهدمها ، ثم قال : لا ترفع المنارة إلا مع سطح المسجد

http://alkadhim.org/other/mktba/hadith/wasael-05/w10.html

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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maybe that is your sad reality history records many reasons for the uncomfortable-ness you fondly describe, another perpective is hatred which have nothing to do with the attitude of muslims......since most dont live alongside them and get worse treatment.

so how about accepting accept what Allah says.

æóáóä ÊóÑúÖóì Úóäßó ÇáúíóåõæÏõ æóáÇó ÇáäøóÕóÇÑóì ÍóÊøóì ÊóÊøóÈöÚó ãöáøóÊóåõãú Þõáú Åöäøó åõÏóì Çááøåö åõæó ÇáúåõÏóì æóáóÆöäö ÇÊøóÈóÚúÊó ÃóåúæóÇÁåõã ÈóÚúÏó ÇáøóÐöí ÌóÇÁßó ãöäó ÇáúÚöáúãö ãóÇ áóßó ãöäó Çááøåö ãöä æóáöíøò æóáÇó äóÕöíÑò

Never will the Jews be satisfied with thee, neither the Christians, not till thou followest their religion. Say: 'Allah's guidance is the true guidance.' If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, thou shalt have against Allah neither guardian nor helper. (2:120)

what do you say after considering these verses?

Inherent bigotry can explain why this referendum got enough signatures to go to ballot. It does not explain how it got 57% support. If people believe that, especially people who live there, I have to ask what they are doing there. If you think seriously think 57% are inherently bigoted toward you, no matter what you do or how you present yourself or reach out to them, than what are you doing in the country? Get lost; go somewhere else. Make hijra in the earth. If you believe that the 57% figure is changeable, and based simply on propaganda, then what is the objection to making some efforts to counter that propaganda that go beyond simply shouting "Islamophobe!" to actually building bridges with people.

As for the Quran verse, this is probably the most abused and misused verse around when it comes to relations between Muslims and others. This verse is constantly trotted out to scuttle any suggestion that Muslims have a responsibility to present themselves in a positive way to bring people to the faith and maintain good relations with outsiders, even the most obvious, simple things. "What do you mean I shouldn't beat myself with swords in the streets? What's next, give up prayer? Maybe you should worry more about pleasing Imam Hussain than these dirty kuffar!" The verse does not apply here. Who is telling you to "follow their religion?" What Islamic principle is sacrificed to not have minarets or crescents on the mosques? To open the mosques up and operate them in the language of the land? To make efforts to reach out to the people around to show them you are human beings who strive to good morals and good relations with people?

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They have always been intolerant of us. The actions of sunni extremists have only made it more apperant these days. They have ridiculed us and our beliefs for hundreds of years. They have put down Islam and muslims in every facet of their culture since the middle ages.

And by the way I did not notice Macisaac calling any one a dirty najis kaffir.

It's a mutually reinforcing dialectic. Both have been writing savage polemics for centuries. The Christians launched their crusades; before that the Moors advanced up to the Pyrenees and after that the Ottomans advanced to the gates of Vienna.

This is history. It is written and done. The question is what we can do to write a better future.

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I am sorry but I cannot agree with you on this. Its the media hype and xenophobia at play here. Muslims, to my knowledge, haven't committed any acts of terror in Switzerland that the Swiss people (natives) should be afraid of them. I cannot imagine any sane person voting for such obviously foolish thing. It just shows that Switzerland needs some serious soul searching to do. I am just cringing at the thought of living at a place where minarets would be thought of as hostile.

Media bells are being rung, yes. But why does the ringing resonate with these people? Europe has a number of right wing crackpots, and usually this sort of sound just goes dead in the air.

Local observers were surprised by this, as normally such noise doesn't go anywhere. Why are people responding to this? That's a question you have to ask. I recognize that it is very easy to externally attribute the causes, to pin it on some inherent European bigotry. But this explanation rings hollow to me, and comes off as a copout. You can explain part of it with this, but not nearly all of it. How many here have actually sat down with these people to discuss why they feel afraid?

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Inherent bigotry can explain why this referendum got enough signatures to go to ballot. It does not explain how it got 57% support. If people believe that, especially people who live there, I have to ask what they are doing there. If you think seriously think 57% are inherently bigoted toward you, no matter what you do or how you present yourself or reach out to them, than what are you doing in the country? Get lost; go somewhere else. Make hijra in the earth. If you believe that the 57% figure is changeable, and based simply on propaganda, then what is the objection to making some efforts to counter that propaganda that go beyond simply shouting "Islamophobe!" to actually building bridges with people.

As for the Quran verse, this is probably the most abused and misused verse around when it comes to relations between Muslims and others. This verse is constantly trotted out to scuttle any suggestion that Muslims have a responsibility to present themselves in a positive way to bring people to the faith and maintain good relations with outsiders, even the most obvious, simple things. "What do you mean I shouldn't beat myself with swords in the streets? What's next, give up prayer? Maybe you should worry more about pleasing Imam Hussain than these dirty kuffar!" The verse does not apply here. Who is telling you to "follow their religion?" What Islamic principle is sacrificed to not have minarets or crescents on the mosques? To open the mosques up and operate them in the language of the land? To make efforts to reach out to the people around to show them you are human beings who strive to good morals and good relations with people?

lol a dishevelled asylum seeker who does not speak english abuses verses ok, if you say so.

you must be aware that these discussions are just damage control since muslim nations are impotent mostly and converts have no other place they call home.

but what about truth some people want solace and closure so they discuss what they see ( being inherently social beings) and they use verses that are non negotiable in context in an effort to exhort to the truth. Allah is the truth so muslims feel they will get closer to Allah with agreement upon truth.

so you disagree with the literal way Allah has said they will never be pleased with you in essence. And you believe (or propogate) they can be pleased. (i percieve)

what would you do if a whole lot of the muslims who 'misuse verses' settled around you and tarnished your image dramatically, what would you do to remedy it?

and if you say you wouldnt you would just leave, where do you think is a good place to go to?

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I recognize that it is very easy to externally attribute the causes, to pin it on some inherent European bigotry. But this explanation rings hollow to me, and comes off as a copout. You can explain part of it with this, but not nearly all of it.

So saying it's bigotry is a copout, but putting the blame on Muslims for poorly "integrating" is a-okay? And you do realize that more than half the Muslim population of Switzerland is composed of people from the former Yugoslavia (e.g. Bosnians and Kosovans) while a further 20 some percent is Turkish, in other words, people who are European themselves or whose culture is already heavily secularized and westernized. What further integration would you propose that they might win the acceptance of their oh so fearful Swiss neighbors?

In terms of the bigotry of these people, here's another poster that same party put out, which by the way is the largest party in Switzerland having captured the largest share of votes in 2007 so hardly some fringe sideline organization:

post-34193-12596044550384_thumb.jpg

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lol a dishevelled asylum seeker who does not speak english abuses verses ok, if you say so.

you must be aware that these discussions are just damage control since muslim nations are impotent mostly and converts have no other place they call home.

but what about truth some people want solace and closure so they discuss what they see ( being inherently social beings) and they use verses that are non negotiable in context in an effort to exhort to the truth. Allah is the truth so muslims feel they will get closer to Allah with agreement upon truth.

so you disagree with the literal way Allah has said they will never be pleased with you in essence. And you believe (or propogate) they can be pleased. (i percieve)

What does a verse about not compromising core religious principles, and one specifically revealed in the context of the Prophet's historically specific struggles with the Jews of Medina have to do with the present situation. If Christians are inherently bound to be "displeased" with Muslims, then why did the early Muslims seek assylum in Abbysinia? Why does history record that the king there was very pleased with the Muslims who came to him?

what would you do if a whole lot of the muslims who 'misuse verses' settled around you and tarnished your image dramatically, what would you do to remedy it?

I'm working on it here, I'm working on it elsewhre.

and if you say you wouldnt you would just leave, where do you think is a good place to go to?

I'm not going anywhere. This is my country.

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Why are people responding to this? That's a question you have to ask. I recognize that it is very easy to externally attribute the causes, to pin it on some inherent European bigotry. But this explanation rings hollow to me, and comes off as a copout. You can explain part of it with this, but not nearly all of it. How many here have actually sat down with these people to discuss why they feel afraid?

which part is inherent european bigotry and which part isnt?

well actually sitting down with another person of european descent who is a possible bigot will have many different outcomes depending on your identity, the power relations,class,race gender the group you belong to (or attribute to yourself)

so unless you develop a hypothsis that is operational and provide a sample that fits your theory you cant even throw this question out can you? since we are not researchers and our answers will not represent the group in disscussion in anyway (muslims).

so perhaps we could ask why hasnt the government "...actually sat down with these people to discuss why they feel afraid?"

why do you think they havent?

Edited by Mohammed-W

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Media bells are being rung, yes. But why does the ringing resonate with these people? Europe has a number of right wing crackpots, and usually this sort of sound just goes dead in the air.

Local observers were surprised by this, as normally such noise doesn't go anywhere. Why are people responding to this? That's a question you have to ask. I recognize that it is very easy to externally attribute the causes, to pin it on some inherent European bigotry. But this explanation rings hollow to me, and comes off as a copout. You can explain part of it with this, but not nearly all of it. How many here have actually sat down with these people to discuss why they feel afraid?

Well, I can only speculate about their point of view sitting thousands of miles away but it seems that you have discussed this issue with a lot of concerned people. Why don't you tell us what their fears are?

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which part is inherent european bigotry and which part isnt?

well actually sitting down with another person of european descent who is a possible bigot will have many different outcomes depending on your identity, the power relations,class,race gender the group you belong to (or attribute to yourself)

so unless you develop a hypothsis that is operational and provide a sample that fits your theory you cant even throw this question out can you? since we are not researchers and our answers will not represent the group in disscussion in anyway (muslims).

so perhaps we could ask why hasnt the government "...actually sat down with these people to discuss why they feel afraid?"

why do you think they havent?

You don't have to build a research study. You just have to sit down and talk to people one human being to another. I don't understand what is so complex about this.

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You don't have to build a research study. You just have to sit down and talk to people one human being to another. I don't understand what is so complex about this.

ok simply put possible european bigots will pick and choose who they answer truthfully,depending largely on appearance religion,race, and rank in society. so your question cannot be answered from an 'outsider' sitting down frankly with the insider and asking them if /and/or why they have a bigoted european mentality.

the government should look into bigotry not the people who feel discriminated against. And they cannot be expected to.

I appreciate this discussion and I cannot knock you if you feel comfortable and have a purpose and outlook that is not ridden with fear and feel you can work with the people in your community muslims and non for peaceful co exsistance. which is after all an acceptance of your day to day life isnt it?

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ok simply put possible european bigots will pick and choose who they answer truthfully,depending largely on appearance religion,race, and rank in society. so your question cannot be answered from an 'outsider' sitting down frankly with the insider and asking them if /and/or why they have a bigoted european mentality.

the government should look into bigotry not the people who feel discriminated against. And they cannot be expected to.

I appreciate this discussion and I cannot knock you if you feel comfortable and have a purpose and outlook that is not ridden with fear and feel you can work with the people in your community muslims and non for peaceful co exsistance. which is after all an acceptance of your day to day life isnt it?

What I am saying is that I do not think most are bigots. Most of the people who voted for this referendum are just people who are either scared of the unknown or put off by certain things that a lot of Muslims believe in or practice which they view as out of tune with their own culture and values. Killing apostates. Stoning adulterers. Amputating thieves. Controlling or disrespecting women. Believing non-Muslims to be unclean. Believing in slavery and concubinage. Killing homosexuals. Giving unequal weight to testimony of men and women, regardless of the knowledge of the woman. Giving unequal value in civil damages for men and women. Giving unequal weight in testimoney and damages between Muslims and non-Muslims. Differing tax systems for Muslims and non-Muslims. Preventing women from being judges, top Islamic scholars, and political leaders. They don't perceive the Muslims in their country as objecting to these practices and beliefs, and so they have a fear that if the Muslim population continues to grow in proportion to the point where they someday become a majority, they will enforce these beliefs and practices on the Europeans. The Europeans find the thought of this intolerable, because, historically, their ancestors believed in and did many of the same things, and the Europeans believe that a move away from those earlier practices was progress, and thus that a move back to those things would be a regress. A lot of us Muslims complain about the European overreactions toward Muslims, and say things like "these Europeans are intolerant towards us; this shows that their claims to be tolerant are empty hypocrisy." But from their perspective, because of some of the beliefs and practices above, it is the Muslims who are intolerant. From their point of view, there is no inconsistency or hypocrisy, because as they see it, tolerance does not mean tolerating intolerance itself.

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What I am saying is that I do not think most are bigots. Most of the people who voted for this referendum are just people who are either scared of the unknown or put off by certain things that a lot of Muslims believe in or practice which they view as out of tune with their own culture and values. Killing apostates. Stoning adulterers. Amputating thieves. Controlling or disrespecting women. Believing non-Muslims to be unclean. Believing in slavery and concubinage. Killing homosexuals. Giving unequal weight to testimony of men and women, regardless of the knowledge of the woman. Giving unequal value in civil damages for men and women. Giving unequal weight in testimoney and damages between Muslims and non-Muslims. Differing tax systems for Muslims and non-Muslims. Preventing women from being judges, top Islamic scholars, and political leaders. They don't perceive the Muslims in their country as objecting to these practices and beliefs, and so they have a fear that if the Muslim population continues to grow in proportion to the point where they someday become a majority, they will enforce these beliefs and practices on the Europeans. The Europeans find the thought of this intolerable, because, historically, their ancestors believed in and did many of the same things, and the Europeans believe that a move away from those earlier practices was progress, and thus that a move back to those things would be a regress. A lot of us Muslims complain about the European overreactions toward Muslims, and say things like "these Europeans are intolerant towards us; this shows that their claims to be tolerant are empty hypocrisy." But from their perspective, because of some of the beliefs and practices above, it is the Muslims who are intolerant. From their point of view, there is no inconsistency or hypocrisy, because as they see it, tolerance does not mean tolerating intolerance itself.

can we agree some of the things you mention are in the quran (not delving into their interpretation) and what you say is also true :)

the choice to live with them lies with them (muslims) its like a marriage that isnt working. if it starts to get violent they will end the love affair or be in denial.

I will leave the other truths (that surround the mob mentality,false flag operations, and involves conspiricy of supremist lucifarians and world domination to another time! :D

Edited by Mohammed-W

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

Macisaac, a sad reality is that they have grown to feel uncomfortable with us largely because of the intolerant and insular rantings of folks like you. This is the end consequence of the attitude of "Islam is the truth, everything else be damned, let's call a spade a spade and a dirty kaffir a dirty kaffir and to hell with what they think." If you openly speak of the people that surround you as najis animals, and go out of your way to not reach out to them, eventually they will begin to take offense. It's not rocket science, but simple human nature. We are largely reaping what we ourselves have sown.

Sure.. but we can recognize the origins of European paranoia without given this vote a stamp of legitimacy. It contradicts the European Convention on Human Rights, it is pushed forth by religiously intolerant groups, and it has absolutely no legitimacy outside of "well I understand why they don't like us.. lets just do what they say now for the sake of moving forward."

Also, lets discuss who we are referring to when we say "them." Close minded, intolerant Muslims and close minded, intolerant Christians are warring against each other. The sane people think this is stupid and, more importantly, that it undermines the principles on which countries like Switzerland are built on and champion globally.

They have always been intolerant of us. The actions of sunni extremists have only made it more apperant these days. They have ridiculed us and our beliefs for hundreds of years. They have put down Islam and muslims in every facet of their culture since the middle ages.

And by the way I did not notice Macisaac calling any one a dirty najis kaffir.

Yeh he may not have used those exact words.. but Macissac is known for his intolerant, close minded views on virtually anything and everything. I can pretty much guess his opinion before any discussion takes place because he exhibits the same pattern of intolerance that is exhibited by Sunni Extremists, Christian extremists, and YES Shia extremists.. they exist too.

Shiachatter: What is the role of women?

MacIssac: Haddith tell us that women are incapable, weak, *insert negative adjective here*

Shiachatter: But wait.. grading of haddith? Um.. context?

Macissac: Who are you to question my literal interpretation of haddiths?

Shiachatter: But um.. critical thinking?

Macissac: be quiet you liberal apologetic, stop trying to change Islam!

It's a mutually reinforcing dialectic. Both have been writing savage polemics for centuries. The Christians launched their crusades; before that the Moors advanced up to the Pyrenees and after that the Ottomans advanced to the gates of Vienna.

This is history. It is written and done. The question is what we can do to write a better future.

I assure you it is not suppressing religious freedoms because of paranoia. It is not voting on a ban of minarets that was funded and aided by Christian extremists and propagated by posters that single out Muslims as the "dark, evil, others." History is there and we can both accept acts of religious intolerance, but the solution will not be found in even MORE religious intolerance. The beauty of Western governments is that this should not even be an option, which is why I am sure this law will soon be s[Edited Out]ed and called out for the bigoted piece of paranoid trash it really is.

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(salam)

The Europeans are absolutely right in banning the hijab, banning the niqab, and now banning minarets. Politicians like Geert Wilders and the BNP have every right to speak against the Qur'an, or call for the banning of immigration, because it's ruining the oh-so-perfect values of the European secular society. Although secularism is to not mix politics and religions, and to teach tolerance over all religions, the Muslims have reaped what they've sewn, and don't deserve to practice elementary parts of the religion. They don't hate Muslims, they hate Islam, and that's perfectly fine. How dare we question their authority? Questioning it is downright racist, and if you even dare question or dismay Europe's anti-Islamic decisions on a public forum, you are an ignorant bigot who should cease to exist.

:squeez:

[/sarcasm]

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