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In the Name of God بسم الله
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AliSaleh

why is smoking weed so bad?

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Let me put this another way.

If you want to prevent a young person from touching marijuana in the first place, maybe exaggerated scare stories will work. I don't like the approach, I think it's dishonest, and these days there is enough info out there for kids to see through it, but maybe it will work.

But suppose you have a young person who has tried it, or is regularly using it, and you want to convince him to quit. If you come at him with this "Reefer Madness" style exaggerations, lies, and general hysterics (it makes you crazy, it makes you violent, it makes you apathetic, it makes you lazy, it causes hallucinations, it blasts you out of reality, you lose your morals while on it, you don't know what you are doing, etc) then they will know from their personal experience with the plant that you:

1. Are lying to them, and therefore not worth listening to

2. Have no clue what you're talking about, and are therefore not worth listening to.

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'In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit.'

right baradar, so if it does not fit this description then it must not be the same thing

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And for the record baradar_jackson, it is not fair to accuse me or anyone else of encouraging its use. its use is already established, it is just that many of the muslims who do use it wouldn't openly talk about it at the mosque or on an internet forum.. this scenario allows the ulema to maintain their misconceptions about the effects of cannabis. if cannabis use really is a sin i would like to know, because as it stands now, even if I never smoked it again i would not be able to seek tawbah because i am not convinced that its use is sinful. seeking forgiveness would be insincere.

there is much science to do about the benefits of cannabis to the human populations. When you consider both its industrial uses in the form of hemp and its medicinal uses, cannabis deserves to be fully explored scientifically. not doing so is unnecessarily restrictive.

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why so much arguing on something that is HARAM brothers and sisters.

Some people in here might as well argue over the issue of alcohol. Benefits shmenefits man, its a drug, its a narcotic, its HARAM. Why is everyone trying to reassure themselves with these benefits in an attempt to outweigh the haram?

Some are arguing against others with the benefits of this deviating drug. It doesnt take a 'alim or a marja to sort it out for you, I dont even think you would need to dig up the ayah in the quran, this is something thats common sense in Islam.

Im amazed at the people who consider it good, who say it helps their prayer and say oh its not so bad after all. Wow ,really? you need to feel euphoric while you pray i see, otherwise its not as "ROBOTIC". Dont you see what rules and WHO'S rules your going against here? Or?........

Sorry if i seem so blunt at the moment but this thread has left me shaking my head.... What has it come down to now seriously.

peace.

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Why do you always have to be so dishonest when you debate? Just keep it clean.

I don't smoke it. Haven't regularly smoked it in close to a decade, and the last time I touched it was a number of years ago.

I've actually argued against it.

Here.

In this thread.

In multiple posts written in clear English.

My point of contention is that I am a stickler for truth and I hate dishonesty, even when it is a "Noble Lie." My point is that you need to honestly and completely analyze the question from all the angles.

Let's be honest here. The fact of the matter is that you are lazy, and can't really hack the discussion, so and you're plotting a course to the escape hatch.

You're not able to argue effectively on this matter. You don't have the requisite knowledge to bring argument from the realm of facts. So you get emotional, you try to browbeat and insult your opponents instead, pretending that their perspective is absolutely unimaginable.

Unfortunately it's not. Their perspective is argubly incorrect, and I have argued this, with verifiable facts and sober argument. However, it is not self-evidently so from an Islamic perspective. There's no specific text about the substance. There is a question of whether the substance fits the definition of the category of banned reason-inhibiting substances. It's not poisonous. It doesn't normally make people crazy. There is the question of what negative effects it has, and whether these effects are greater than the positive effects.

This is not a trivial set of questions. It is a set of questions that deserve to be asked and answered in a truthful, evidence based fashion.

You don't have any first hand experience of the effects. What you apparently have been told about the effects is not completely accurate. But you insist on commenting. Why?

If your stance is based on a vague feeling based on a priori notions and what minimal amount of half-true reports you have uncritically assimilated, such that it just doesn't "feel right," then just say so. I can respect that.

All this self-righteous posting, and it is only now you admit that your basis is "it just doesn't smell right."

Fine. Just be brave enough to admit that.

If your stance is based on "my marja told me so, that's all I need to hear," then just admit that. I can respect that too.

And let people like myself who know what they're talking about lead the balanced, evidence-based argument against the recreational use of this plant.

Because, honestly, you're just mucking it up.

As for the childish comparisons to Irshad the Hedgehog, well, to quote an ignorant man, I'm just left shaking my head.

LOL @ you trying to paint my anti-weed comments as the nonsensical rantings of an irrational person.

You're the one who is going against the grain on this one. The entire Islamic scholarship is against you on this issue. So you're gonna have to do better than simply post your own thoughts and reflections.

I posted an ayah to support my view. That ayah is enough to convince me. You, who wants to twist the words of the Quran on itself -- and, in the words of Marshal Zhukov, "turn the Bible against God" -- have not even posted that much. So you have no place telling me I haven't brought any evidence.

Anyway, I have an open mind. If I felt that there were compelling evidence for your position, I would be ready to change my position. But you people haven't brought any [islamic] evidence for your position. You have just posted your personal thoughts and reflections and opinions (which, oddly enough, other people may not feel obliged to believe). Which is what you always do (of course, while accusing the opposing side of not producing any evidence). I already confessed that I am no alim. But neither are you. If you can't produce textual evidence for your stance, then stop being so smug about it (remember, I am taking the conventional stance; you are going rogue).

why so much arguing on something that is HARAM brothers and sisters.

Some people in here might as well argue over the issue of alcohol. Benefits shmenefits man, its a drug, its a narcotic, its HARAM. Why is everyone trying to reassure themselves with these benefits in an attempt to outweigh the haram?

Some are arguing against others with the benefits of this deviating drug. It doesnt take a 'alim or a marja to sort it out for you, I dont even think you would need to dig up the ayah in the quran, this is something thats common sense in Islam.

Im amazed at the people who consider it good, who say it helps their prayer and say oh its not so bad after all. Wow ,really? you need to feel euphoric while you pray i see, otherwise its not as "ROBOTIC". Dont you see what rules and WHO'S rules your going against here? Or?........

Sorry if i seem so blunt at the moment but this thread has left me shaking my head.... What has it come down to now seriously.

peace.

+10000000000000000000000

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You're the one who is going against the grain on this one. The entire Islamic scholarship is against you on this issue. So you're gonna have to do better than simply post your own thoughts and reflections.

Sorry, what?!?! The scholarship is against me? Against my arguments that people should NOT be smoking pot? You smoking crack, baradar? Are you arguing that the entire Islamic scholarship is IN FAVOR of marijuana legality? That's news to me, LOL.

Or did you just get rather embarassingly caught out NOT reading before posting?

I posted an ayah to support my view.

But you didn't justify that it applies to the subject at hand.

Anyway, I have an open mind. If I felt that there were compelling evidence for your position, I would be ready to change my position.

Do you even understand my position? Because I get the impression you think I'm promoting marijuana use. In which case, no, you didn't understand my position.

You have just posted your personal thoughts and reflections and opinions (which, oddly enough, other people may not feel obliged to believe). Which is what you always do (of course, while accusing the opposing side of not producing any evidence).

I brought up my first hand observations, this is true. I also referenced actual scientific research. Research about links of THC to schizophrenia in particular sub-populations, about use of cannabidiol as an anti-psychotic. What research did you reference?

Oh, right, none.

If you can't produce textual evidence for your stance, then stop being so smug about it (remember, I am taking the conventional stance; you are going rogue).

For the 20th time, I am not arguing that marijuana use is legal. STOP LYING, baradar.

For those who do, however, the textual argument would be that:

1. There are no direct, explicit textual evidences against it

2. It is not clear that comparison with alcohol or the labelling of marijuana as a muskir/intoxicant used typically to argue against marijuana by analogy is an appropriate analogy.

Anyway, as I've said already, the more subtle points of argument are moot, for the current time at least, because it is illegal by current laws of the land, and therefore illegal from the perspective of Islam as well.

Oh, and just to add a bit, so that you will be able to mentally process properly:

You shouldn't smoke marijuana.

You shouldn't smoke marijuana.

You shouldn't smoke marijuana.

You shouldn't smoke marijuana

You shouldn't smoke marijuana.

.

Edited by kadhim

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Hmm.. sorry Haji, cant be bothered replying to you, kinda more interested in discussing the issue at hand....

'In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit.'

Yes, but the whole thing is does weed fit into this catergory in the first place. If you get time watch the link i posted. It seems that maybe only skunk fits this category, not so much weed.

Edited by _jen_

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Yes, but the whole thing is does weed fit into this catergory in the first place. If you get time watch the link i posted. It seems that maybe only skunk fits this category, not so much weed.

Tell me why it doesn't.

To me, it seems to be at least as detrimental to a person's health (mental and physical) as alcohol, and it alters ones senses just as alcohol does.

Now a lot of "experienced" folks on here might say that I have no right to pass judgment because I know nothing about weed's effects in comparison to alcohol. To them I reply: you are correct that I don't know through any direct experience. But direct experience is not necessary in order for one to know that something is haraam. (If this were the case, then we would all have to commit a sin to know that it is a sin, which makes no sense).

So yeah... I don't see the distinction between weed and alcohol. Of course there are surely different effects, but different effects does not make weed not subject to that ayah. It simply means that it detriments a person in a slightly different way than alcohol. (There are, after all, more than one way to damage oneself).

And Kadhim, you are very smug and it makes me impatient to discuss anything with you. But I will make one point:

Anyway, as I've said already, the more subtle points of argument are moot, for the current time at least, because it is illegal by current laws of the land, and therefore illegal from the perspective of Islam as well.

Illegal by the current laws of the land and THEREFORE illegal from the perspective of Islam?

That makes utterly no sense. Anything that is illegal by the current laws of the land is illegal from the perspective of Islam?

Ya Hagh

Edited by baradar_jackson

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baradar,

I'm kind of talking down to you because you're being dishonest with my posts or just stubbornly refusing to understand.

I agree with considering marijuana for recreational use forbidden, religiously. (Medical use is another matter, and as you know the scholars accept this) I don't smoke it, haven't for years, and don't intend to, for various reasons. I have children to set an example for, a wife that wouldn't approve, a job and good standing to think about in terms of legal risk, concerns about religious permissibility, and besides that I don't have any contacts anymore that use it anyway. So I have no dog in this fight.

Actually, I come to the same conclusion as you, ultimately, that Muslims should not smoke it. And I've argued such.

I just don't think you and some others have done a good job in justifying yourselves in your own arguments. In fact, a lot of your justifications don't hold water because you rely too much on half-truth and exaggerations rather than hard data. And therefore, it's best for you to simply say, "It doesn't feel right to me, and marjas speak against it." And then let others discuss science and rational reasons beyond this.

Where I think your brain is getting confused by my posts is that I don't take a polemical approach, but a balanced, intellectual, evidence based approach.

So I don't just state my positive points, and ignore or minimize everything my opponent can bring in favor of his argument. If my opponent has a point in certain respects, I acknowledge this. I notice that Easterners seem to have a lot of trouble understanding this balanced approach. "Oh my God, he agreed that the other guy has some valid points; it must mean he agrees with him on EVERYTHING."

Another point. The problem is not that you have no direct experience. It is true that you do not need direct experience to speak about something. But if you use indirect reports from others, you do need to make sure you are using authentic, valid information. If a source tells you things about the marijuana experience, and all the people who have actually experienced it tell you that the information is not accurate, you need to reconcile that.

As for the final point, yes, it is an established Islamic legal principle, as far as I know accepted by all maraja today that Muslims are obligated to follow the law of the land, with ver few exceptions. (We cannot obey, for example, a law telling us not to pray, not to be Muslim, not to fast, etc) This is related, as I understand it, to teachings that we must honor our covenants and agreements.

Committing criminal acts is haram in Islam. Since most jurisdictions ban marijuana possession and consumption, it is haram on those grounds alone. I mention this because this is the simplest, most black and white approach to arguing marijuana is haram. Beyond that it gets more complicated, as I have elaborated in some detail earlier.

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(salam)

Can someone please ask their marjas the following two questions?

1. Can we use marijuana for recreational purpose (or simply enjoying like we do with smoking cigarettes/hookah)?

2. Can we use marijuana if the doctor has prescribed marijuana as an alternative form of medicine for treating muscular ache or other ailment? The use of the marijuana for medicinal purposes will be stopped as soon as the condition improve or upon following the doctor’s order.

See, if the rules are any different.

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(salam)

Can someone please ask their marjas the following two questions?

1. Can we use marijuana for recreational purpose (or simply enjoying like we do with smoking cigarettes/hookah)?

2. Can we use marijuana if the doctor has prescribed marijuana as an alternative form of medicine for treating muscular ache or other ailment? The use of the marijuana for medicinal purposes will be stopped as soon as the condition improve or upon following the doctor’s order.

See, if the rules are any different.

Yes, the answers from fiqhi scholars are generally:

1. No

2. Yes

This is not in dispute by anybody here. Now the response of many would be, "well, that basically settles it then, doesn't it? You think you know better than them?"

To which those who defend the recreational use - if I can dare to speak for them, though not one of them - would reply, "no offense to the marajas, I understand they ban it as an "intoxicant," but I think they're basing this on inaccurate information, because it doesn't really fit the definition."

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Tell me why it doesn't.

To me, it seems to be at least as detrimental to a person's health (mental and physical) as alcohol, and it alters ones senses just as alcohol does.

Now a lot of "experienced" folks on here might say that I have no right to pass judgment because I know nothing about weed's effects in comparison to alcohol. To them I reply: you are correct that I don't know through any direct experience. But direct experience is not necessary in order for one to know that something is haraam. (If this were the case, then we would all have to commit a sin to know that it is a sin, which makes no sense).

So yeah... I don't see the distinction between weed and alcohol. Of course there are surely different effects, but different effects does not make weed not subject to that ayah. It simply means that it detriments a person in a slightly different way than alcohol. (There are, after all, more than one way to damage oneself).

Hi Bardar

Well where we differ, is that I dont believe that weed is detrimental to ones health because I dont believe that any of these effects we speak about are bad. I talk from personal experience, and honestly I have not noticed any bad effect this particalur drug has had on my life. Skunk is detrimental - and I can therefore accept this to be haraam. I think,that on this thread, we are mixing up the types of cannabis out there. Some types will be haraam but the pure natural stuff without the added chemicals etc, I really dont believe is. Unless, of course, it results in addiction which like all addictions, are haraam.

But then with this in mind, I dont understand why weed is allowed Islamically to improve physical health (eg MS) but not allowed to improve emotional/mental health. Why is the happy feeling a depressed person gets from smoking a joint less important than the pain relief an MS sufferer gets from doing the same thing?

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Hi Bardar

Well where we differ, is that I dont believe that weed is detrimental to ones health because I dont believe that any of these effects we speak about are bad. I talk from personal experience, and honestly I have not noticed any bad effect this particalur drug has had on my life. Skunk is detrimental - and I can therefore accept this to be haraam. I think,that on this thread, we are mixing up the types of cannabis out there. Some types will be haraam but the pure natural stuff without the added chemicals etc, I really dont believe is. Unless, of course, it results in addiction which like all addictions, are haraam.

But then with this in mind, I dont understand why weed is allowed Islamically to improve physical health (eg MS) but not allowed to improve emotional/mental health. Why is the happy feeling a depressed person gets from smoking a joint less important than the pain relief an MS sufferer gets from doing the same thing?

Let's assume, Jen, that marijuana has no detrimental effects whatsoever on your health personally.

Is that enough to declare it halal?

I don't believe so. Halal and haraam are determined based on general outcomes, not on individual ones. Perhaps one strong-willed person can be a better Muslim when he is surrounded by corruption than when he is surrounded by virtue (and some people are certainly like this; corruption sparks this reaction in them). That does not mean that we must make society as corrupt as possible to accomadate that individual.

From my experience talking with people (non-Muslim acquaintances) who smoke weed, I have determined its haraamness. Firstly, because these people seem hella dumb. They are generally consumed with frivolity. It leads me to believe that weed is yet another distraction; an obstacle in the way of excellence (which is Islam's goal for each and every human being). Also, according to their testimony, weed makes them hungry. They have often woken up from weed slumbers to an empty fridge. Just for this increased food consumption alone (disregarding the health detriments which supposedly don't exist), can't we determine its haraamness? Is this not considered israf (eating so much food simply because of ones intoxication)?

These are just some thoughts to consider.

The reason we pray, the reason we try so hard to become close to God, is because we want to experience this feeling of ecstasy without the use of such things. These things only distract us and create illusions. They deviate us from the truth. One cannot have complete political and religious consciousness while not even having consciousness to begin with.

Ya Ali

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baradar,

What you describe is, to my experience, often true for heavy, chronic users.

Basically people who never "come up for air," so to speak. Lives tend to stall with this sort of usage.

Strangely, though, when it is used as a once in a while thing, like once a month or so, there is something to the notion that it can help one in his path. To explain.

In the busyness of our lives, it is easy to get so focused on the secondary matters (money, job, wife, kids, bills, vacation plans, this and that) that you lose sight of the big perspective. Your attention is so focused on certain things that other things arguably more fundamental and important fade to the background.

One of the positive effects of marijuana, again when used as a once in a while thing, is that it for a few hours gives you a different set of eyes, a slightly different perspective. Often this gives you an ability to step back from yourself and look critically at what you've been up to, notice some things that you had ignored with your focus on other things. This enables some recalibration for those who have the self-awareness to make use of the insight.

Of course, as I said at the start of the post, if you're always stoned, the altered perspective ceases to be something different; it becomes a new normal, and as a result it has its own crippling effect in terms of losing sight of certain things.

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