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Help regarding ziyarat-e-ashura

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Salaam

Someone I know suggested that I should read ziyarat-e-ashura, in order to solve a problem I`m having. My friend also gave me a link to the dua, but he was not able to answer some question I had about the dua. I dont understand the in-depht meaning of the verses that I have pasted below. Can anyone please take out some time and explain to me who is beeing referred to when it says

Ziyaad

Family of Marwan

BanuUmayyah

Son of marjana

Umar son of Saad

Shimr,

May Allah condemn and damn the family of Ziyaad and the family of Marwaan;

May Allah condemn and damn the group and the tribe of Umayyah, one and all, altogether;

May Allah condemn and damn the son of Marjaanah;

May Allah condemn and damn Umar son of Saad;

May Allah condemn and damn Shimr;

O my Allah condemn and damn the first tyrant who unjustly and wrongfully usurped that which rightly belonged to Mohammad and the children of Mohammad, and bring curse upon those who, after him, followed in his footsteps.

O my Allah, let the curse I call down on the head of the first tyrant stick like a leech; and stay put for ever on the first, then the second, the third and the fourth.

Who is beeing referred to in the least two sentences I have pasted? If I understand rightly, is this about when Abu Bakr when he became Caliph instead of Maula Ali?

I would make lots of dua for the one who helps me out with this, its really urgent.

Wassalam

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Salaam

Someone I know suggested that I should read ziyarat-e-ashura, in order to solve a problem I`m having. My friend also gave me a link to the dua, but he was not able to answer some question I had about the dua. I dont understand the in-depht meaning of the verses that I have pasted below. Can anyone please take out some time and explain to me who is beeing referred to when it says

Ziyaad

Family of Marwan

BanuUmayyah

Son of marjana

Umar son of Saad

Shimr,

May Allah condemn and damn the family of Ziyaad and the family of Marwaan;

May Allah condemn and damn the group and the tribe of Umayyah, one and all, altogether;

May Allah condemn and damn the son of Marjaanah;

May Allah condemn and damn Umar son of Saad;

May Allah condemn and damn Shimr;

O my Allah condemn and damn the first tyrant who unjustly and wrongfully usurped that which rightly belonged to Mohammad and the children of Mohammad, and bring curse upon those who, after him, followed in his footsteps.

O my Allah, let the curse I call down on the head of the first tyrant stick like a leech; and stay put for ever on the first, then the second, the third and the fourth.

Who is beeing referred to in the least two sentences I have pasted? If I understand rightly, is this about when Abu Bakr when he became Caliph instead of Maula Ali?

I would make lots of dua for the one who helps me out with this, its really urgent.

Wassalam

Salaam aliakum

Yes you are right, it is referring to those people.

Wasalaam

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Salaam

Someone I know suggested that I should read ziyarat-e-ashura, in order to solve a problem I`m having. My friend also gave me a link to the dua, but he was not able to answer some question I had about the dua. I dont understand the in-depht meaning of the verses that I have pasted below. Can anyone please take out some time and explain to me who is beeing referred to when it says

Ziyaad

Family of Marwan

BanuUmayyah

Son of marjana

Umar son of Saad

Shimr,

May Allah condemn and damn the family of Ziyaad and the family of Marwaan;

May Allah condemn and damn the group and the tribe of Umayyah, one and all, altogether;

May Allah condemn and damn the son of Marjaanah;

May Allah condemn and damn Umar son of Saad;

May Allah condemn and damn Shimr;

O my Allah condemn and damn the first tyrant who unjustly and wrongfully usurped that which rightly belonged to Mohammad and the children of Mohammad, and bring curse upon those who, after him, followed in his footsteps.

O my Allah, let the curse I call down on the head of the first tyrant stick like a leech; and stay put for ever on the first, then the second, the third and the fourth.

Who is beeing referred to in the least two sentences I have pasted? If I understand rightly, is this about when Abu Bakr when he became Caliph instead of Maula Ali?

I would make lots of dua for the one who helps me out with this, its really urgent.

Wassalam

Thank you for answering.

But who are these people:

Ziyaad

Family of Marwan

BanuUmayyah

Son of marjana

Umar son of Saad

Shimr,

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Thank you for answering.

But who are these people:

Ziyaad

Family of Marwan

BanuUmayyah

Son of marjana

Umar son of Saad

Shimr,

(bismillah) (salam)

I gotta get to school I will answer as many as I can in that time

Shimr (l.a)- The one who cut Imam Hussain's (as) holy head.

Family of marwan (l.a)- I guess that means yazeed and muawiyah and amr e aas. (watch the Imam Ali (as) movie to really get a sense of what he did)

Umarr ibn saad (l.a) - lead the side opposing Imam Hussain (as) on the day of Ashura

Hopefully someone else can answer the rest. I am off to school, and we get our mid term mark tommorow so I am kindda tense.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Salaam

Someone I know suggested that I should read ziyarat-e-ashura, in order to solve a problem I`m having. My friend also gave me a link to the dua, but he was not able to answer some question I had about the dua. I dont understand the in-depht meaning of the verses that I have pasted below. Can anyone please take out some time and explain to me who is beeing referred to when it says

Ziyaad

Family of Marwan

BanuUmayyah

Son of marjana

Umar son of Saad

Shimr,

May Allah condemn and damn the family of Ziyaad and the family of Marwaan;

May Allah condemn and damn the group and the tribe of Umayyah, one and all, altogether;

May Allah condemn and damn the son of Marjaanah;

May Allah condemn and damn Umar son of Saad;

May Allah condemn and damn Shimr;

O my Allah condemn and damn the first tyrant who unjustly and wrongfully usurped that which rightly belonged to Mohammad and the children of Mohammad, and bring curse upon those who, after him, followed in his footsteps.

O my Allah, let the curse I call down on the head of the first tyrant stick like a leech; and stay put for ever on the first, then the second, the third and the fourth.

Who is beeing referred to in the least two sentences I have pasted? If I understand rightly, is this about when Abu Bakr when he became Caliph instead of Maula Ali?

I would make lots of dua for the one who helps me out with this, its really urgent.

Wassalam

Not all of Ziyarat Ashura is authentic.

And to say "May God curse all of bani umayya entirely" is incorrect because we know there were some good people in bani umayya such as Muawyia bin Yazeed(rh) and 'Umar bin Abdul AzizÑÍãå Çááøå

And the people you listed (ale ziyad, ale marwan etc) were tyrants and abused the Quran and Sunnah and oppressed the family of the Prophet (pbuh).

wa salam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Not all of Ziyarat Ashura is authentic.

And to say "May God curse all of bani umayya entirely" is incorrect because we know there were some good people in bani umayya such as Muawyia bin Yazeed(rh) and 'Umar bin Abdul AzizÑÍãå Çááøå

And the people you listed (ale ziyad, ale marwan etc) were tyrants and abused the Quran and Sunnah and oppressed the family of the Prophet (pbuh).

wa salam

I`ve heard about Yazid ibn Muawiyah, but not Muawiyah ibn Yazid. Who was he??

If you condemn the whole of Banu Umayya, you also condemn Uthman ibn Affan ra???

Do you know where I can read more about Umar bin Saad, aale Marwan and aale Ziyad????

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I`ve heard about Yazid ibn Muawiyah, but not Muawiyah ibn Yazid. Who was he??

Muawiya bin Yazeed(rh) was the son of the satanic yazeed bin muawyia(la). Muawyia bin Yazeed abdicated his throne in favor of Ahlul Bayt, but was assassinated by other members of banu umayya because they wanted power.

Here is a brief Wiki article about him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27awiya_II

If you condemn the whole of Banu Umayya, you also condemn Uthman ibn Affan ra???

As I said, it is incorrect to condemn the whole of bani umayya, but most of them were scum.

As for Uthman, he is generally view by most Shia in a neutral way with slight pessimism.

Some of his positive attributes are:

1) He was one of the early converts of Islam

2) He gave a great deal of his money towards Islam

etc

and some of his negatives:

1) He appointed many of his relatives who were crooks and oppressors and hypocrites like walid and muawyia bin abi sufyan in various positisions

2) He was regarded as both a weak and an oppressive Caliph by the Ummah to the point that the Muslims set up a conspiracy to kill him.

However, I try to avoid judging Uthman because I have come across evidences that he spent his last months almost constantly in worship and asking for forgiveness. And Allah(swt) is al-Rahman and al-Raheem.

Do you know where I can read more about Umar bin Saad, aale Marwan and aale Ziyad????

Not off hand. What you can do is research marwan and his descendants, ziyad and his descendants, etc

wa salam

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Guys you wanna know about Ziarat Ashura you should read bout my great grandmother. I posted this about her

But yea seriously there must be something to it when Imam Jafar says recite it every day. Clearly the sawab and rewards in the Akhirah are immense. I wanted to get into habit of reciting Ziarat Ashura every night like my great grandma. Its just you start off great for a week, but then once you dont recite it once, you get lazy again.

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Not all of Ziyarat Ashura is authentic.

You may want to state that not all of Ziyarat Ashura is authentic; according to YOU.

Where as in fact over whelming majority of scholars state that it is authentic.

I suggest you read this article, which Alhamdulillah has been translated in to english :

Link

Ayatullah Jafar Subhani (ha) has done an analysis of five different chains related to Ziyarat Ashura and reward of visiting Imam Hussain and has shown how they are authentic (cursing of the criminals included).

People have witnessed miracles from Ziyarat Ashura, and our greatest scholars recite it on a daily basis.

Edited by Al-Mufeed

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Not all of Ziyarat Ashura is authentic.

And to say "May God curse all of bani umayya entirely" is incorrect because we know there were some good people in bani umayya such as Muawyia bin Yazeed(rh) and 'Umar bin Abdul AzizÑÍãå Çááøå

And the people you listed (ale ziyad, ale marwan etc) were tyrants and abused the Quran and Sunnah and oppressed the family of the Prophet (pbuh).

wa salam

(salam)

Actually, according to al-Maraaja' ul-'Adhaam, all of Ziyaarat 'Ashura is Hadith Qudsi. It is a great Ziyaarat, and its rewards are unimaginable.

There is unanimity in this regard. The main person who disagrees is Fadhlullah, and his ijtihad is problematic. So it is a fact that there is unanimity in this regard that Ziyaarat 'Ashura is authentic beyond a shadow of a doubt, and it is virtuous to recite it.

I find it frightening when people pass their own religious edicts on matters about which they don't know anything about, really. They should remember this Hadith Sahih:

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد وعبدالله ابني محمد بن عيسى، عن علي بن الحكم، عن سيف بن عميرة، عن مفضل بن يزيد قال: قال [لي] أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: أنهاك عن خصلتين فيهما هلاك الرجال: أنهاك أن تدين الله بالباطل، وتفتي الناس بما لا تعلم

Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad and 'Abdullah, the sons of Muhammad ibn 'Isa, from 'Ali ibn al-Hakam, from Sayf ibn 'Umayra, from Mufadhal ibn Yazeed, who said: "Imam Ja'far (as) said: "I prohibit you from two qualities which destroy men - Do not worship Allah with falsehood, and do not give religious verdicts to people about what you do not know."

- al-Kafi, volume 1, book on the virtue of knowledge, chapter on the prohibition of speaking without knowledge, hadith 1

In the future, refrain from imposing your subjective opinions upon our Madhab.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri

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Actually, according to al-Maraaja' ul-'Adhaam, all of Ziyaarat 'Ashura is Hadith Qudsi. It is a great Ziyaarat, and its rewards are unimaginable.

Not a great ziyarat, the GREATEST of all ziyarat. The amount of miracles people have seen from reciting Ziyarat Ashura is incredible. In fact you should read about what our great Ulamah have stated about ziyarat ashura to learn of its amazing benefits.

if your problem is with the cursing there are authentic narrations about cursing and they can be provided for you if you wish

Regarding Ziyarat Ashura there is no doubt in its authenticity.

In fact our scholars have stated that you cant even pray behind a person who considers Ziyarat Ashura unauthentic.

I have attached the fatwas of Ayatullah Tabrizi (ra) in that regard.

post-21325-12585098175844_thumb.jpg

post-21325-12585102323564_thumb.jpg

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Not a great ziyarat, the GREATEST of all ziyarat. The amount of miracles people have seen from reciting Ziyarat Ashura is incredible. In fact you should read about what our great Ulamah have stated about ziyarat ashura to learn of its amazing benefits.

if your problem is with the cursing there are authentic narrations about cursing and they can be provided for you if you wish

Regarding Ziyarat Ashura there is no doubt in its authenticity.

In fact our scholars have stated that you cant even pray behind a person who considers Ziyarat Ashura unauthentic.

I have attached the fatwas of Ayatullah Tabrizi (ra) in that regard.

Salaam, brother.

Mashallah, yes. Also, we have the Fatawa of Syed Sistani (ra), Sheikh Fadhil Lankarani (ra), al-Syed Muhammad Sadiq al-Ruhani (ra), and others about this.

It's only the pseudo-scholars who challenge this.

- Mansab

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(bismillah)(salam)

Guys, i really think you should calm down. He said a couple of words now you are bombarding him with fatwas and ahadiths. At least give him time to respond to each post.

(wasalam)

No need. We don't need another discussion on this from lay people.

- Mansab

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Not all of Ziyarat Ashura is authentic.

And to say "May God curse all of bani umayya entirely" is incorrect because we know there were some good people in bani umayya such as Muawyia bin Yazeed(rh) and 'Umar bin Abdul AzizÑÍãå Çááøå

And the people you listed (ale ziyad, ale marwan etc) were tyrants and abused the Quran and Sunnah and oppressed the family of the Prophet (pbuh).

wa salam

(salam)

There you go ... The Khoja thing again " NOT ALL OF ZIARAT-e-ASHURA IS AUTHENTIC" ... Rubbish

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(bismillah)

(salam)

You may want to state that not all of Ziyarat Ashura is authentic; according to YOU.

It is not according to me. Jondab provided a link and I have others. Certain people on this forum like to make up their own rules of rijl to "prove" that it is 100% authentic.

I suggest you read this article, which Alhamdulillah has been translated in to english :

Link

I've read it and it's irrelevant. Nobody says that it is not recommended to recite Ziyarat Ashura. Obviously there are many sahih ahadith stating the benefits of reciting it and what to do if you cannot be by the grave of Imam al-Hussein (as), etc. The question is "is the Ziyarat Ashura that the Imams (as) were talking about the same on in our hands today?" After all, there has been known tahreef with Sheikh al-Tusi's (ra) book.

As for Ayatollah Subhani's analysis with particular persons, Jondab has provided a link and I have more at home, if you are interested.

People have witnessed miracles from Ziyarat Ashura.

Christians say the same thing when they worship Jesus or when they do certain rituals. All religions claim to have miracles when one preforms certain actions. Of course, it is not unlikely that miracles would happen when one recites this Ziyarat, because one endeavors to draw him self near to God and near to one of His close servants.

But miracles aren't a criteria for authenticity.

(salam)

Actually, according to al-Maraaja' ul-'Adhaam, all of Ziyaarat 'Ashura is Hadith Qudsi.

Source? What are the proofs for this? Which version?

The main person who disagrees is Fadhlullah, and his ijtihad is problematic.

Instead of attacking him personally, why don't you counter what he says about the Ziyarat?

if your problem is with the cursing there are authentic narrations about cursing and they can be provided for you if you wish

There is no question that it is incorrect to say "May God curse all of Bani Umayya" if there are good people in Bani Umayya. It doesn't just say "May God curse Bani Umayya"; it also says "ajmaeen". You may be cursing good people in Bani Umayya.

And if you have sahih ahadith cursing the first 3, then present them.

In fact our scholars have stated that you cant even pray behind a person who considers Ziyarat Ashura unauthentic.

Sounds like something a wahabi would say.

There is only version of Ziyarata Aushura?

There are different versions.

(salam)

There you go ... The Khoja thing again " NOT ALL OF ZIARAT-e-ASHURA IS AUTHENTIC" ... Rubbish

I don't even know what a khoja is lol

Perhaps one of the esteemed scholars on this forum would like to reply to this?

wa salam

Edited by lotfilms

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It's only the pseudo-scholars who challenge this.

Salam

You know after crying and stuff, this Ziyarat let's out all our emotions and gives this feeling of peace... I went through it..

But we have to be careful of our emotions...

I read about many traditions (and you can also see the attitude of Imam Kathim (as) by which he earned the name "Kathim"), that we don't disconnect from the community and should not, and should work to bring people back...

When you read Imam Ali (as) letter after some battles discussing the unity of the religion of both sides, and how he treated all Muslims in his life, this doesn't add up.

Also to say for example, Uthman was the "thirst" THALIM to Ahlebayt (as), does not make sense. It's one of these things we repeat but we never think about it. There was others doing thulm to them, and Uthman was not the 3rd person to do it, and this measurement by whom gains the Caliphate is uniquely doing thulm to Ahlebayt (as), doesn't make sennse...

How did Yazeed become fifth and not the Khawarij? Why not the killer of Ameeral Momineen (as)? It's said he is the worse of the last, following the worse of the first. You'll find this something a person without logic would say, yes we know 1, 2, 3, 4,5, but it only makes sense to us because we don't think about the words, while if you really think about it, it's not logical sound thing to say. Illogical people say things that are not true and like to follow it (and I can show many examples of people doing this), but to say Imams (as) would say something that is not true, and by all norms of the language, cannot be true.. It's dumb....

Also cursing of entire families? What is that? When filled with hate of the big bad guys, yes, all this cursing and tabara this and I am with you this, makes you feel really good... and might feel special.. but if you really think about what your saying, I mean in the Du'a, we never even promise to help his cause..and it's all about waiting till the last Imam Mahdi (as) shows up...

I find it very sad that Sermon of Mina is virtually uknown among the masses, and it's show the True Banner and struggle fo ahlebayt (as) and their teachings as well frees Imam Hassan (as) of accusations.

This thing makes people do things that Imam Ali (as) through out warned not to do in his life, and was is emphasized message to khawarij as well, which applies to us, and we see anyone even under Ali's (as) banner calling to any disunity should be killed according to Imam Ali (as)...ofcourse this order is abrogated now as everyone calls towards disunity and it's become the community stand! As Imam Ali (as) said the community will unite on disunity..can Ahlebayt (as) be really attribtued this same attitude Imam Ali (as) condemns of the future and also warned about and also goe against the thing no one loved more then Ali (as).

There is other hadiths like "we connect with whom breaks from us" , etc...

And reality is a lot of people whom thought Abu Baker was good, etc, did also find Hussain (as) right and hated Yazeed, in fact, the community over all hated Yazeed, and what Ziyaratal Aushura is doing, is putting in all one basket, if you think Abu Baker was a Muslim leader and you accept him and support him, you are put in the same basket as people whom supported Yazeed...

Tell me what is missing in Ziyaratal Waritha that makes this better then it?

I use to read this Ziyarat all the time, till when I realized how people use it to go against principles of Quran and Ahlebayt (as), and i guess their arguments were true, from the point of view, (and forget all those hadiths), yeah we should totally disconnect from Sunnis, have nothing to do with them, no brotherhood, nothing... And you tell me what good that brings today?

Plant enough seeds of fitna and blindness, and it will grow and grow.

Before even looking at a hadith whether authentic by chain or not, you should think about it's implications, what it means for people at that time and for now, and if this is really a beautiful teaching or Satanic teaching?

I expereinced nahjul balagha wihout this tone crya thing and I experienced something beyond time and space in that, and this attitude of Imam Ali (as) is ingrained in my heart, and nothing can convince me otherwise.

Read Ziyaratal Aushura wihout crya, and without a tone thing, just read it for what it says QUIETLY, and maybe you will realize all this is imposed on it, by the tone, by the manner it said, etc, and it's emotions, but when you think about what it says, analyze what it means.. I don't see that it can be from Imams (as)...

It reaks everything a people wanting to destroy the cause of Ahlebayt (as) I believe in, and destroy the real meaning of Aushura, and plant seeds of fitna for the future and hatred to too many people whom God shows one should hope mercy in, call to unity as much as possible, and work to save from the clutches of the Mutakabareen, not seperate from them and seperate from people whom were not hostine themselves, especially when they follow some good.

One of the worst thing swe can do is fasad and fitna on earth and if a people unite on fasad and fitna (and at times some of our scholars would call every whom opposed them as KAffers), I certainly will not unite on it, and work to bring the opposite...

God says "God doesn't forbid you from those whom don't fight you..."... And being good to them means yes having love for them, that is why he says "God doesn't forbid you..", otherwise doing good and being justice even to people whom we are hostile towards is part of teachings of Islam, but this is clarifying this is part of goodness and justness people should have for others whom are not hostile for them.

In Quran, Mohammad (pbuh) is told to say "Salam" to non Muslims, Ibrahim (as) says it to non-Muslims, and blessed servants of God are also said to say it to ignorants... yet what do we inherit? We inherit to not say "Salam" to non-Muslims, and now that community doesn't consider each other Muslims often, different sects don't say Salam, and even within Shias, people whom see other Shias as "Kaffer" by w/e reason, will often avoid Salam...

Isn;t Imam Mahdi (as) working to shave off hate of people's hearts?

Putting people all sorts of people in one basket of the armies of Yazeed and his supporters - if I don't believe the Compassionate loving Source of peace, would ever say something like this and would teach the opposite - this makes me what? insincere to Ahlebayt (as), lack of loving Ahlebayt (as)? Have you not considered if the opposite was the attitude of Imam Ali (as), then you guys would be hating indirectly the light of Ali (as) (at least hating part of it)?

wa salam

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Read the entire thread that Jondab linked to all of the points that he raised were already addressed in that thread. I am not going to copy paste the various arguments.

If you have some specific issue with any of Ziyarat Ashuras chain, say it here.

Also refer to the thread posted by Afollower.

If you want to have a discussion about one specific narrator, please bring up the chain in question and the narrator.

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Read the entire thread that Jondab linked to all of the points that he raised were already addressed in that thread. I am not going to copy paste the various arguments.

The points raised in return have also been answered. Read the thread carefully again.

w/s

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Read the entire thread that Jondab linked to all of the points that he raised were already addressed in that thread. I am not going to copy paste the various arguments.

If you have some specific issue with any of Ziyarat Ashuras chain, say it here.

Also refer to the thread posted by Afollower.

If you want to have a discussion about one specific narrator, please bring up the chain in question and the narrator.

Last night I read parts of Tuhafaqal Uqool Again. I read how Imam JAffar (as) when asked about khums mentioned how Quran doesn't leave anything unclarified...so he went on to explanation of Quran by Quran, and also with histocal context that everyone acknowledges of these verses, and as in whatever you gain in this and that, (ie. battle talk), and saying the obvious we all know.... and after at the end, he said "so whomever changes God's words after clarification..".... and I realized all what he said is not something anyone can come to realize just by the words, not needing it to be authentic, he is saying "the clarifcation", not "my words", and his words clarifies, but it's not about it being his words, it's about what he showed. People may question whom exactly is the "Qarba" from Abdal Mulalib kids, at that time, they may not know whom will inherit this position or if the whole chosen family thing right away, but it means what it means. So he explained Khums and I thought of Imam Retha (as) words too.

And I have decided (for a while) I don't care about this system no more. I knew what it meant and know what it means..

I know what Quran teaches regarding an attitude towards people, in went into detail with this, it has different attitudes in different situations. Also I've realized the wisdom of Imam Ali (as) words in nahjul balagha regarding this, and realized this can't be denied to be his attitude just by historically looking at his life. But Nahjul Balagha contains a Spirit, a light, manifested, and is beyond time and space.. and doesn't matter chains or no chains... We get to know of Ali (as). Not saying every word in it is true, but there is truth to be experienced, and I know by that truth, that this Ziyarat was not by Ahlebayt (as). Not only that but it has incorrect false statemetns that everyone knows are not correct and I already explained those... What you make it mean in your head won't make it a possible for any sentence structured like that to every mean that...Ibrahim (as) shows the obvious, they know it and pretend they don't know... And everyone always knew there was not just 5 and it never made sense to say "thalim" in that sense.. maybe in english the word "tyrant" could have been used, but in Arabic, thalim is encompassing, and is not limited to that form... and we read of the killer of Imam Ali (as) being the worst of the last following the worst of the first...and we all knew it never made sense and it makes as if these 5, without these 5, this thulm would not have happened.

REality is Saqifa already taking place, Abu Baker and Umar hear abotu it, head there, and take it... There could have been worser peopel whom taken, maybe better, I highly doubt if they were going to elect Imam Ali (as), Abu Baker and Umar changed those people mind. Those few people were after all meeting for what? About 99.99 percent of community is missing ofcourse...

And Uthman, let's say it was not him, let's say Umar picked someone else for comiteee... WHAT THE HECK IS THE DIFFRENCE?

You see there isn't this pint pointing of five being the source of all of it..is just stupid and we all know it, time to waken up and realize what you always knew.

Yeah whom doubts God wants us to not love people not hostile to us and fighting us, as he said in Quran, he cannot be prayed behind. Anyone believing in the unity principles taught by Imam Ali (as) (and other Imams (as)) ofcourse cannot be prayed behind..

Redicolous.

When does an authentic chain prove something is true beyond doubt?

And MacIsaac once said (but doesn't stick to now), "look at the words being said, not whom is saying it", is reported by Imams (as)...

And now everyone says what? "Doesn't have ijtehad, pseude scholars, "Ahlul-Kibra"" all stuff and standards and things made up and having no sure basis... You acting like all insecure people and our scholars are acting like the past insecure scholars of other faiths...

Excommunication, etc.. it's cause their weak foundations, had they legs to stand on... this would not be their attitude... this attitude is of insecure people...

Edited by Awakened

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From that thread, some person said:

Wallah this just increases the thulm on Imam Husain (as). I can't believe after what Imam Husian (as) has done for us, some stupid shias are trying to destroy the only legacy left for the shia to honor Imam Husain (as).

See how stupid we become?

This is the legacy of Hussain (as) for us? This is the only way for Shia to honor him?

Some of the same people reciting this only legacy and honor go have dinner with current Yazeeds and sit with them and flatterize them...

And if anyone can't see that this Ziyarat part of the cause fo such attitude, it's quite simple, you read the Sermon of Mina (which barely anyone knows of the community), it's Eternal Truth told for all times and for all past times, but you read the ziyarat, it's about about so and so and so and so and all about loving and hating people (and including many people that wanted Hussain (as) to rule).. not only that but the rest of Ahlebayt (as) are said to have disconinued this holy Call of his on the day of Sermon of Mina..

All this is in fact has been a way to IGNORE the CLEAR message of Karbala, the ETERNAL MESSAGE, the HAQ in the Sermon of Mina, and has been dishonoring the real spirit of Karbala.

It's brought us to ignorance of the goals and attitudes of Ahlebayt (as)... we think we are honoring their struggle by disconnecting from people they struggled to free? For people they felt compassion and love for and wished to guide?

Edited by Awakened

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(salam)

(salam)

There you go ... The Khoja thing again " NOT ALL OF ZIARAT-e-ASHURA IS AUTHENTIC" ... Rubbish

What do Khojas have to do with this? :lol:

I find it hard to believe that our Imams ('a) would curse a pious man like 'Umar b. 'Abd al-Aziz for simply being part of the Banu Umayya. Also, didn't Sayyid Ibn Tawus (ra) challenge the present version of Ziyarat 'Ashura? He was certainly not a psuedo-scholar.

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(salam)

Wallah, this is very sad. You and Jondab are not scholars of Hadith or Rijal. Neither of you know what this is about except for a superficial understanding. You do not understand these rules that you try to cite. Our scholars have authenticated this Ziyaarat. Their opinions level your accusations to the ground. Your opinions mean nothing, really.

al-Syed ibn Tawus (ra) did not say that there was interpolation in the Ziyaarat.

You ask me for proof regarding the unanimity of acceptance of Ziyaarat 'Ashura. This is widely understood. Go and look at the Fatawa of the 'Ulema. I'm sure you know how to use google.

People like you try to take our Madhab into your own hands. Sorry, but get a life. Follow the Maraaja' and if you want to discuss this issue, go to the Hawza and study first.

- Mansab

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(bismillah)(salam)

Brother mansab, i agree with you but we don't treat our brothers in faith like foreigners. He has asked questions and it is up to you to answer them, not telling them to go to hawza. Is that the akhlaq ahlul bayt taught us? Or is that the akhlaq taught byu ahlul saqifa (LA). (note: ahlul saqifa is used by ayatallah qazwini (HA), so i didn't make it up)

(wasalam)

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(salam)

What do Khojas have to do with this? :lol:

I find it hard to believe that our Imams ('a) would curse a pious man like 'Umar b. 'Abd al-Aziz for simply being part of the Banu Umayya. Also, didn't Sayyid Ibn Tawus (ra) challenge the present version of Ziyarat 'Ashura? He was certainly not a psuedo-scholar.

(salam)

I have only heard Khojas talking about the Authenticity of Ziarat-e-Ashura...Wasnt Umar b.Abd Al-Aziz , the guy who took revenge of Imam Hussain's blood with Mukhtar-e-Saqafi ?.. When It says Curse be upon Bani Ummaiyah , it means not only Yazeed but people who stayed quiet at the time of Kerbala and preffered Haj over Kerbala or for some reason didnt go to do Imam Nusrat... so the conclusion is if you do not come out of your house to support Imam , then La'anah on you .. and I am sure there must thousands of people from Bani Ummaiyah who supported Yazeed ...

I hope I am making sense ...

Peace

Peace

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(bismillah)(salam)

Brother mansab, i agree with you but we don't treat our brothers in faith like foreigners. He has asked questions and it is up to you to answer them, not telling them to go to hawza. Is that the akhlaq ahlul bayt taught us? Or is that the akhlaq taught byu ahlul saqifa (LA). (note: ahlul saqifa is used by ayatallah qazwini (HA), so i didn't make it up)

(wasalam)

(salam)

Perhaps my words are sharp, but this has been going on long enough. If people don't speak up, I will.

The point is very simple to understand. People need to refer to the Maraaja' before speaking on behalf of our Madhab and making wild statements like "not all of Ziyaarat `Ashura is authentic" as if they know more than them. If you were here for past discussions, you would know what's going on. We have had a person accuse pretty much all of our `Ulema of extremism in beliefs and using double-standards, and he seems to imply always that the only one in our Madhab who is not a Ghali is Fadhlullah:

These people don't have any humility towards the `Ulema. They pass their own religious edicts when it goes against the famous opinion of the greatest of our scholars, and the accepted belief. When they are called out for this, they hide behind the garb of scholars who have problematic Ijtihad and who do not fall in line with the others. It really blows my mind. The worst, however, seems to be when they challenge the opinions of great Mujtahideen with their own pseudo-understanding of `Uloom ul-Hadith. Seems like everyone's becoming a Mujtahid on shiachat.com these days. I didn't know this was a Hawza.

I hope you guys understand the seriousness of this problem, and I hope I'm not the only one who is concerned with this on-going trend. There should be a rule against these sorts of posts, where the established opinions of Ahl ul-Khibra are attacked and tossed to the side for the sake of someone's own subjective reasoning.

Anyway, you're right about Akhlaaq. Thanks. And yes, may Allah curse Ahl ul-Saqifa, as Iblees was the first to give Bay'a there. In our belief, these people opened a door of oppression against Ahl ul-Bayt (as) that will not stop until the day of reckoning. Sadly, some of the Shi'a here on this site support the members responsible for this coup, and even offer excuses and justifications for them constantly.

Guard yourselves against these evils.

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ æÚÈÏÇááå ÇÈäí ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍßã¡ Úä ÓíÝ Èä ÚãíÑÉ¡ Úä ãÝÖá Èä íÒíÏ ÞÇá: ÞÇá [áí] ÃÈæÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: ÃäåÇß Úä ÎÕáÊíä ÝíåãÇ åáÇß ÇáÑÌÇá: ÃäåÇß Ãä ÊÏíä Çááå ÈÇáÈÇØá¡ æÊÝÊí ÇáäÇÓ ÈãÇ áÇ ÊÚáã

Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad and `Abdullah, the sons of Muhammad ibn `Isa, from `Ali ibn al-Hakam, from Sayf ibn `Umayra, from Mufadhal ibn Yazeed (Mazyad), who said: "Imam Ja`far (as) said: "I prohibit you from two qualities which destroy men - Do not worship Allah with falsehood, and do not give religious verdicts to people about what you do not know."

- al-Kafi, volume 1, book on the virtue of knowledge, chapter on the prohibition of speaking without knowledge, hadith 1

- Mansab

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The point about Umar bin Abdul Aziz and Muawiya ibne yazeed is a non issue.

Did quran not say this about son of Nuh

He said: "O Nuh (Noah)! Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge! I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants."

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You may then repeat the following words one hundred times:

اَللَّهُمَّ ٱلْعَنْ اوَّلَ ظَالِمٍ

ظَلَمَ حَقَّ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ

وَآخِرَ تَابِعٍ لَهُ عَلَىٰ ذٰلِكَ

اَللَّهُمَّ ٱلْعَنِ ٱلْعِصَابَةَ ٱلَّتِي جَاهَدَتِ ٱلْحُسَيْنَ

وَشَايَعَتْ وَبَايَعَتْ وَتَابَعَتْ عَلَىٰ قَتْلِهِ

اَللَّهُمَّ ٱلْعَنْهُمْ جَمِيعاً

You may then repeat the following words one hundred times:

اَلسَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ يَا ابَا عَبْدِ ٱللَّهِ

وَعَلَىٰ ٱلارْوَاحِ ٱلَّتِي حَلَّتْ بِفِنَائِكَ

عَلَيْكَ مِنِّي سَلاَمُ ٱللَّهِ ابَداً

`مَا بَقيتُ وَبَقِيَ ٱللَّيْلُ وَٱلنَّهَارُ

وَلاَ جَعَلَهُ ٱللَّهُ آخِرَ ٱلْعَهْدِ مِنِّي لِزِيَارَتِكُمْ

اَلسَّلاَمُ عَلَىٰ ٱلْحُسَيْنِ

وَعَلَىٰ عَلِيِّ بْنِ ٱلْحُسَيْنِ

وَعَلَىٰ اوْلاَدِ ٱلْحُسَيْنِ

وَعَلَىٰ اصْحَابِ ٱلْحُسَيْنِ

In ziyarat - e - Ashoorah, when reciting the ziyarat it is written that you recite the above two verses 100 times each. I would like to know if instead of reciting these verses 100 times each, can we recite them 5times each and by doing so, will the benefits of the ziyarat - e - ashoorah be reduced or will the sanctity of the ziyarate be deemed useless for reciting the ziyarat with the above two verses being recited 5 times each.

I would request your clarification on the above matter and guide me.

I would be highly obliged for the same.

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I am not against laanat, I myself say " Laaanat Beshumar on them "

I would like to know that instead of reciting the laanat 100 times as mentioned in the ziyarat what if we recite it 5 times each.

I would like to have clarification, explanation from some reputed maulanas.

I am looking forward for the clarification please.

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