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Abbas.

Taqiya - The shia Concept

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Salams

In our everyday life, the concept of taqiyyah makes sense. Many of my sunni associates have had no issue with the concept in itself until after they realised it is one of those 'evil' shias practices which the sunnis are against.

If we forget the shia-sunni debate for a sec, what exactly is wrong with the idea of Taqiyyah ? Can a sunni muslim kindly explain it to me in light of Quran and hadith and ofcourse some common sense ?

Thankyou

Fi-Amanillah

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The problem rises when 12rs make such statements.

We don't curse the sahaba, but we only curse those deserve to be cursed.

We don't curse the calipahs, but we say may Allah curse the enemies of Ahlul Bayt.

We don't consider the 3 calipahs to be kaffir, in fact they are Muslim. However, let's not forget there are Monafiqs among Muslims.

In Ziarat Ashura there are no names mentioned, so please don't be offended.

Edited by Abdaal

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The problem rises when 12rs make such statements.

We don't curse the sahaba, but we only curse those deserve to be cursed.

We don't curse the calipahs, but we say may Allah curse the enemies of Ahlul Bayt.

We don't consider the 3 calipahs to be kaffir, in fact they are Muslim. However, let's not forget there are Monafiqs among Muslims.

In Ziarat Ashura there are no names mentioned, so please don't be offended.

Salams Abdaal

We can discuss the problems within shia societies of today some other time. At the moment, I am trying to understand if sunni muslims agree or disagree with the concept of taqiya, as per the definition of shia school of thought. So we are not talking about what a bunch of shias say or do on shiachat or elsewhere in the world. We are looking at the definition of taqiya provided by Shia school of thought, and we are assessing whether this concept is right or wrong according to Islam (backed by Quran, ahadith and reasoning).

Fi-Amanillah

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As for Taqiyah yes its part of Islam.

bismillah.gif

salam.gif

Your comments of late, have had me wondering a bit.........not that i am complaining. None the less, is there a major shift occuring in the sunni mindset viz a viz , understanding the history of Islam, and certain previously taboo issues ? Or are people like you the exceptions? In recent times preachers like Syed Ninowy , Imam al-Asi, Tahir Qadri have more or less supported the classical Shi'"i position in regards to various doctrines and historical occurances, people like Muawiya, Uthman , Aisha are increasingly coming under the scanner by scholars like the aformentioned preachers . Is this trend a mainstrem phenomena in the contemporary sunni populace or are these just isolated incidents. By the way, is Syed Ninowy a Zaidi ? And do scholars like these have a substantial following among the sunnis ?

Wasallam

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All these scholars you mention rely on Sunni sources to provide evidence. They don't rely on any other history books from other sects when it comes to beliefs.

As for Muawiyah his rule is was taken by force. His government is not considered to be legitimate due to this.

For Aisha (ra) and Uthmaan (ra) I believe are still momins even after their errors. The reason is a major sin in the Sunni aqeeda doesn't take make a believer to be a non believer. Unless of course they commit shirk.

Syed Ninowy is not a Zaydi. Zaydis are very close to Sunnis but the also have differences. Also, Syed Ninowy follows Sufi Tariqah which is no longer existent among the Zaydis.

As for my views I guess learning is a continuous process.

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The problem rises when 12rs make such statements.

We don't curse the sahaba, but we only curse those deserve to be cursed.

We don't curse the calipahs, but we say may Allah curse the enemies of Ahlul Bayt.

We don't consider the 3 calipahs to be kaffir, in fact they are Muslim. However, let's not forget there are Monafiqs among Muslims.

In Ziarat Ashura there are no names mentioned, so please don't be offended.

100% correct, i challenge anyone to prove these are wrong.

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Taqiya as taught by many Shias today is a major corruption and killer to the Deen.

What has made you say so ? The doctrine and its explination is the same, after all, we are Shias of today, ................what makes you say so ?

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(salam)

I never understood the problem with taqiyya as a doctrine. I do agree it can be misused, but I think the lack of taqiyya is partly what has gotten us into the sectarian mess we are in today. Taqiyya is for the greater good - it is not something we can ever abandon. Taqiyya is an obligatory duty (farida wajiba), whoever abandons it has opposed the religion of the Imamiyyah and has separated from it.

Here's some ahadith: http://www.*******.org/hidaya/taqiyya

"He (as) said, “One who prays in the first row with them is as though he had prayed in the first row with the Messenger of Allah (sawas).”

Taqiyya is a barrier against unnecessary and immoral fitnah.

Edited by Qa'im

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(salam)

Think of it like this, brother. Allah has told us in the Qur'an to abstain from mocking the gods of the idolaters - why? So that they do not mock Allah unknowingly. If mocking something as evil as shirk in front of the mushrikeen has been recommended against, then logically, mocking something MUCH less harmful than shirk should not be accepted by us.

It's true that we do not share the same opinions concerning certain historical figures with our Sunni brethren. If you are sitting with a group of Sunnis at school, or in a masjid with them, is it better to bring up the topics that cause fitnah, or is it better to just not say anything? The former risks a divide from within the believers, creating more enmity in the Ummah, and a possible hate for our ways and our A'immah (as). Keeping your mouth shut is a form of taqiyya, and in this scenario it keeps Muslims united and open to our madhab.

Edit: Oops, looks like the brother deleted his post before my reply.

Edited by Qa'im

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Taqiyya has always been, is and will always be part of Islam. No Sunni can dispute this. If they do or are ignorant to the concept, then it is out of a continuing ignorance of Islamic history. It perfectly follows why Taqiyya is such a developed concept in Shia Islam because of what the Ahlul-Bayt and their followers had to deal with throughout the centuries. They had to employ taqiyya against fellow Muslims, which is a real shame, whereas Sunnis rarely had to do it against non-Muslims.

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Taqiyya has always been, is and will always be part of Islam. No Sunni can dispute this. If they do or are ignorant to the concept, then it is out of a continuing ignorance of Islamic history. It perfectly follows why Taqiyya is such a developed concept in Shia Islam because of what the Ahlul-Bayt and their followers had to deal with throughout the centuries. They had to employ taqiyya against fellow Muslims, which is a real shame, whereas Sunnis rarely had to do it against non-Muslims.

Taqiya as practiced by the blessed companions was the proper Taqiya.

Quran shows where it's appropiate and where the application of "Don't fear men but fear me" is appropiate to the extent it abrogates it although it never really contradicted it and scholars are particularly emphasized things others are not, and Shias were suppose to do one type of specific Taqiya at certain times and conditions with certain people for certain things, not the Taqiya they did to justify the cowardice and abandonment of Quran and Ahlebayt (as) and also then accuse Ahlebayt (as) of hidding the truth despite God says "you shall make it known to men" and warns of concealing it, the garbage Taqiya preached by so many Shias is nothing but cowardice, Nifaq, and rejection of the true Ahlebayt (as).

Like Muqatadal Al-Sadr (ha) mocks, even when the Jews will come and take over the houses and etc, etc,, what will they say "Taqiya, Taqiya".

"while the cowards abandon you" to Imam Mahdi (as) in Du'a Nudba

What does it mean cowards abandoned him? What was bravery needed for?

If we been told to do Taqiya as in don't say anything, don't rise against oppressors, don't fight, then what the hell is the bravery expected here, what were they cowards of?

Imam Hassan (as) fought to his last breath (and how can he not when the treaty was broken and the very people he was trying to protect were being attacked anyways??) and I even hear so called lovers of Al-Haider (as) use his name (Al-Hassan (as)) to say we should not fight and destory the DAMN Zionist Jinn Worshipping Kabalastic Killers of the Prophets (as) ....They had a poster of Israel and Palestine in a univesity with "peace" and saying something baout Imam Hassan (as) teaching "peace"...yeah it's peace to sign a treaty and then sit do nothing while the other says I will not keep one of these conditions and goes on a killing spree of the very people you were tyring to protect, and sit any do nothing, this is "peace", their Islam,...this is not my Imam (as)..I follow different Imams (as) then they do... "what will you not fight a people whom broken their treaty..." (something a long that line in Quran, you guys ever think, hey these verses apply to our Imams (as) and their Shia to???)

We believe in two different Hassans (as) and the name Hassan (as) has two different meanings, and I will never ever accept your meaning, nor ever love but the true Hassan (as) I know of. Not the one you want to protray.

If you read the sermon of mina, not only does it clarify Imam Hussain (as) stance, but it shows a struggle that was already undertoken by blessed true knowers of the deen and God (to be opposed by Wussy Coward Scholars ofcourse like today), lead ofcourse by no one but Imam Hassan (as), the Betrayed Warrior tilled today.

Edited by Awakened

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(salam)

Think of it like this, brother. Allah has told us in the Qur'an to abstain from mocking the gods of the idolaters - why? So that they do not mock Allah unknowingly. If mocking something as evil as shirk in front of the mushrikeen has been recommended against, then logically, mocking something MUCH less harmful than shirk should not be accepted by us.

Since when is this taqiyah ? This is just practicing good character. Taqiyah is when you present your belief and you'll get killed as a result.

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Since when is this taqiyah ? This is just practicing good character. Taqiyah is when you present your belief and you'll get killed as a result.

That's just one side of it. As you see in the link I posted, part of taqiyya is even praying in the first row at Sunni masajid, visiting their homes and funerals, etc. The point is we cannot be openly against what you believe as the majority, because that risks the bond between Muslims and sometimes it even risks our lives. Many of the early Shi'ah even had kept it a secret that they were Shi'i.

Edited by Qa'im

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Since when is this taqiyah ? This is just practicing good character. Taqiyah is when you present your belief and you'll get killed as a result.

Why does it have to be so black and white?

What if you present your faith, and you are to receive a non fatal beating etc?

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^ not really.

Anyone can pick up our books and read them, just as I have, and see what we believe, there is no sugar coating there at all.

The only ones that make this claim (that shia lie all the time etc), are the non shia who claim to know more about the shia than the shia themselves, and say things like:

" You beleive Ali Ibn Talib is Allah! "

When you reply, no, they just say that you are doing taqiyah. This kind of conversation illustrates that the non shia here is completely ignorant of the truth, and they are so arrogant, that they will be unwilling to actually go and learn about it, thus remaining at this primitive level.

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This is why 12rs get accused of lying all the time. They use taqiyah to sugar coat their aqeeda.

No, they are protecting the lives of other mu'mineen and mu'minaat. I wish that more Shi'ah on this board practiced taqiyyah, because the internet is a global forum and their statements can be used by Sunni extremists to fuel hatred and incite violence against us.

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No, they are protecting the lives of other mu'mineen and mu'minaat. I wish that more Shi'ah on this board practiced taqiyyah, because the internet is a global forum and their statements can be used by Sunni extremists to fuel hatred and incite violence against us.

What would you like Shi'ahs to use Taqiya for? What exactly is it that Shi'ah say that causes Sunnis to jump the gun?

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No, they are protecting the lives of other mu'mineen and mu'minaat. I wish that more Shi'ah on this board practiced taqiyyah, because the internet is a global forum and their statements can be used by Sunni extremists to fuel hatred and incite violence against us.

So let me get this straight. You are allowed to lie so we don't hate you ?

We got to learn to love each other like Quran commands humanity to.

Yes, but some people only love those who agree with them. They hate others for having different beliefs.

The Jews and Christians will never be satisfied with you until you follow their way of life." [Holy Qur'an, Al-Baqarah (2):120]

Likewise the extreme among the Sunnis and Shias are just like this group of people who have a limited way of thinking.

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So let me get this straight. You are allowed to lie so we don't hate you ?

Not if that hatred wasn't so commonly turned into mass slaughter...

Btw, taqiyya can also involve not volunteering information rather than lying. Shi'ah who start threads here with headings like, " 'Aisha was a munaafiq!", are doing their co-religionists no favours.

Edited by Abdul Qaim

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That's what I've been trying to tell Qaim. I don't consider such actions to be a form of Taqiyah. In fact, if you start a topic like that then it just means you are ill mannered. Honestly you don't need taqiyah to cover that up. Instead what a person needs in those situations is to control their egos (nafs).

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I do not think it is fair or right to equate or refer to taqiyyah as "lying". to put it simply it is remaining firm in your heart while saying otherwise with your tongue... or as someone pointed out, not saying anything at all. hypocrisy is the opposite of this which would using the same example of the heart and mouth be saying one thing and pretending to be of steadfast faith, while the heart is not at all convinced of what the tongue claims. Look at the example of Nabi Ibrahim when he was asked about who broke the Idols.. he did not lie, he simply diverted their attentionand questions to their idols and did not disclose the full information that he had. THAT was the taqiyyah of not divulging information. That of Ammar bin Yassir (ra) was that of saying something contrary to his unshakeable and steadfast belief.

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(salam)

That's what I've been trying to tell Qaim. I don't consider such actions to be a form of Taqiyah. In fact, if you start a topic like that then it just means you are ill mannered. Honestly you don't need taqiyah to cover that up. Instead what a person needs in those situations is to control their egos (nafs).

Though what we're saying is, keeping your mouth shut about matters that cause fitna falls under the umbrella of taqiyya. Taqiyya by definition is not "lying" like many Sunnis conspire, it means "fear". As a minority, with our own Caliphate, own beliefs and opposition to the Caliphs of Bani Umayya, Abbasids and others, taqiyya is fully understandable. The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and sahaba even practiced taqiyya during the first years of Islam - the religion, its beliefs, membership, and opposition to the authority was mostly kept secretive.

The concept might be hard to grasp for Sunnis living in the Muslim world, but I'm sure Sunnis living in Christian or secular areas of the West may better understand what we mean.

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(salam)

The concept might be hard to grasp for Sunnis living in the Muslim world, but I'm sure Sunnis living in Christian or secular areas of the West may better understand what we mean.

I do live in the Western world. I am from Canada, and right now I am living in the US. Personally, I still don't understand your extended definition of taqiyah. The way you are explaining taqiyah, it seems like a marketing concept. For example a company is trying to sell a product. They will do whatever they can to make their product look appealing. This is what I can conclude from the your version of taqiyah.

Also, can you provide ahadith in regards to the other aspects of Taqiyah. I want the opinion of the Imams not the opinions of Shaykh Saduq, Shayh Mufid or the other major scholars of your school.

Also, can you explain these statements which shias usually make and get accused of deception.

We don't curse the sahaba, but we only curse those deserve to be cursed.

We don't curse the calipahs, but we say may Allah curse the enemies of Ahlul Bayt.

We don't consider the 3 calipahs to be kaffir, in fact they are Muslim. However, let's not forget there are Monafiqs among Muslims.

In Ziarat Ashura there are no names mentioned, so please don't be offended.

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Also, can you explain these statements which shias usually make and get accused of deception.

We don't curse the sahaba, but we only curse those deserve to be cursed.

We don't curse the calipahs, but we say may Allah curse the enemies of Ahlul Bayt.

We don't consider the 3 calipahs to be kaffir, in fact they are Muslim. However, let's not forget there are Monafiqs among Muslims.

In Ziarat Ashura there are no names mentioned, so please don't be offended.

1) Actually we do curse some of those whom you regard as sahaaba. Vermin like Mu'awiya et al deserve to be cursed and I don't think you will find many Shi'ah who hold back their feelings on these kind of personalities. We also generally do tabarra' of the enemies of the Ahl al Bayt without naming them specifically. There are ashaab like Talha over whom there is a difference of opinion. Some regard him as having repented and being forgiven by Imam 'Ali (as), whilst others do not. Generally disassociating from the enemies of the Prophet's Household is sometimes more prudent as you may be sending la'an on someone who is not deserving of it which has serious consequences in this world and the next.

2) The only time I've seen the first 3 khulafa cursed is online. Strangely enough, I've not met a Shi'i in person who curses them (aside from reciting Ziyaarat 'Ashura), so unless we're doing taqiyya amongst ourselves, something strange is happening. I have, however, met Shi'ah who vehemently criticise the 3 (particularly 'Umar), and some who undoubtedly despise them (again, No.2 is on the top of the list).

3) If you are a munaafiq, then you are not a Muslim - you are a munaafiq. There's no doubt the 3 were not mu'mineen as far as we are concerned, but to say they were not Muslims is a stretch. Rather, many regard them as having given in to their nafs and its hawaa', no doubt driven by their jealousy of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (as). Shaytaan can make evil fair-seeming in the minds of those who cannot control their base desires and emotions. I'm sure ibn Abi Quhafa and ibn al Khattab convinced themselves that their usurpation of the rights of the Prophet's family was done in order to safeguard God's religion, but that won't ease for them in the slightest the hisaab they will face.

4) We all know who Ziyaarat 'Ashura is referring to when it talks about the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. That said, I'm sure you are aware of the controversy re: the authenticity of that part of the Ziyaarah.

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Jazakallah for your replies. Ita straightforward!

I wanted to also point out that the Quran mentions three types of people. The monafiqeen, the momineen, and the kaffireen. Where did shias come up with a 4th category ? Can they use the Quran to justify this ?

Edited by Abdaal

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(salam)

I wanted to also point out that the Quran mentions three types of people. The monafiqeen, the momineen, and the kaffireen. Where did shias come up with a 4th category ? Can they use the Quran to justify this ?

There will always be people who will believe a part of the message, and leave the rest of it. For example, if you find a Muslim who eats something haram (like animals that were not slaughtered Islamically), that person is still a Muslim, but he is committing a sin by eating that food. Someone who leaves a part of the message is not necessarily a kafir or munafiq (which both deny the person their Islamic identity), they could be ordinary Muslims who are committing sin through one or more ways.

Edited by Qa'im

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Jazakallah for your replies. Ita straightforward!

I wanted to also point out that the Quran mentions three types of people. The monafiqeen, the momineen, and the kaffireen. Where did shias come up with a 4th category ? Can they use the Quran to justify this ?

Salam, it's been shown to you before, verses implying different then these three categories. For example, a Mustaadaf whom has no way to believing or disbelieving is one example. Mulafi qulabihim is another example of neither these categories... I have no idea why you insist on these 3 classification.

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