Muslims must quit British Forces

[Thurston]

The Iranian Supreme Leader’s representative in Britain has told Muslim servicemen and women to quit the Armed Forces, saying that their involvement in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars is forbidden by Islam.

The cleric, personally appointed by Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, to be his special envoy to the UK, also urged Muslims to defeat the opposition to the Iranian regime and keep the 30-year-old Islamic Republic alive.

In his first interview with an English language newspaper, Ayatollah Abdolhossein Moezi, director of the Islamic Centre of England, said he regretted that protesters were killed by the Iranian security forces after the presidential election in June but that their deaths were “unavoidable”.

Ayatollah Moezi, the most senior Iranian spiritual leader in Britain with thousands of followers from the Shia sect, said that it was wrong for followers of Islam to serve in the Armed Forces, especially in Afghanistan and Iraq where Muslims were being killed.

“Not only do I not accept it for Muslims to go there, I don’t accept non-Muslims to go there as well,” Ayatollah Moezi told The Times through an interpreter provided by him. “We say that Muslims are not allowed to go and kill Muslims. Do you think that Christians are allowed to go and kill Muslims?”

The cleric, 65, condemned the massacre in Texas last week of 13 American soldiers at the Fort Hood base by a Muslim military psychiatrist and insisted that it should not be used to tarnish the image of the world’s 1.5 billion Muslim population.

He said the September 11 attacks and the London bombings were wrong but accused the forces of “Zionist imperialism” of using the atrocities to smear Islam and its followers.

Ayatollah Moezi, 65, added that he advocated freedom of speech. He was confident that the opposition to President Ahmadinejad’s Government, led by the failed presidential candidate Hossein Mousavi’s Green Movement, would not topple the Islamic Republic.

“I believe the Islamic revolution has been absorbed to the deepest parts of our society,” said Ayatollah Moezi, who has been in Britain since 2004 after serving as the Supreme Leader’s special envoy to Vienna for four years.

“Of course, in our community we have people who do not accept Islam as a social entity and do not accept the revolution certainly. But these are not the majority in our society in Iran. And I believe that if those people in Iran who have a commitment to Islam, if they fulfil their duty towards Islam, the revolution will go ahead.”

During the interview at the Islamic Centre of England’s headquarters in Maida Vale, West London, the Ayatollah expressed his unease with some of the questions put to him, including those about the political situation in Iran. But he insisted that he would answer such questions to set the record straight and show that he was not afraid of being transparent and accountable.

Asked his views on the deaths of protesters in Iran — 36 according to the Iranian Government’s records and 72 according to the opposition — he said: “I believe that demonstrations everywhere in the world are free and should be free according to the law of the land. I am against killing and Ayatollah Khamenei is also against killing. However, in such clashes some sort of these incidents are unavoidable when you try to stop people from sabotage, from the acts that we have seen. Killings took place on both sides. But if anyone on purpose has killed someone else, they are liable.”

Ayatollah Moezi said he regretted the death of Neda Soltan, 26, a student, who the regime believes was killed by its enemies. The opposition maintains that she was killed by Iranian security forces.

He said her killers should be brought to justice. Ms Soltan, an Iranian student shot in the chest on June 20, has been held by Iran’s opposition movement and many in the West as a symbol of the regime’s brutality and suppression of human rights.

Ayatollah Moezi said Iran was entitled to pursue its nuclear ambitions for peaceful purposes. “The fact that Iran is entitled to use atomic energy has been admitted by the whole world.”

Ayatollah Moezi believes that Islam and politics are “inter-mixed” because religion “could not be ignorant of social issues. And part of social issues is politics, therefore Islam should have some sort of eye on political issues.”

He insisted that his role in Britain was to provide spiritual advice to all Muslims, irrespective of their sectarian backgrounds, and encourage them to become more involved in British society through education and employment.

He said the centre worked with police and other authorities to improve relations between the Muslim community and wider Britain.

“My personal belief is if Muslim migrants are better Muslims in this society, they can shape their individual lives in a better way and could be better members to this society,” he said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6916382.ece

[Marbles]

The Iranian Supreme Leader’s representative in Britain has told Muslim servicemen and women to quit the Armed Forces, saying that their involvement in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars is forbidden by Islam.

Bullocks.

Now Iranian regime will tell British Muslims whether to join British armed forces or not. We already have a lot of troubles here with integration and we don't need this 'advice'.Thanks.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

I liked his condemnation of the Fort Hood Massacre and his points about the validity of Iran pursuing its nuclear ambition, but religious leaders have given varied opinions on the matter of joining the British/American army, so it is not something he can declare to be "against" Islam.

There are some whose involvement in these wars has done nothing but help Muslims in those regions. They are soldiers who can appreciate the complexities of war rather than make this a case of "muslims killing muslims." Honestly with all that has been going on and given the context and circumstances this guy should know better than to make such statements at a time like this.They are British/American citizens who do not owe the Iranian government anything at all. If they make the decision to not join the army and support Iran's foreign/domestic policy (and there are many valid reasons why one would make such a decision) that is another thing altogether.

Anyways, religious leaders from Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/etc always make me feel uneasy when they offer spiritual advice. There is a delicate mold and a radically different dynamic for Muslims who were born and raised in the West that they simply do not cater to very well. Maybe it is just a coincidence that most of the speeches on "womens rights" or women in general that are delivered by imported Imams make me walk out before they can "help a sista out."

anyhoos, I digress

btw, there are some EXCELLENT imams that I have had the privileged of listening to throughout my short, uneventful life

[shiasoldier786]

May Allah (swt) bless him for stating the obvious.

Bear in mind, it was an interview, and hence the answer may be in response to what the reporter asked him...

Here is how the British Army are liberating us...

"A former soldier yesterday broke the silence surrounding the brutal death of an Iraqi prisoner in British Army custody.

Garry Reader confessed that he saw two of his colleagues hitting and kicking the helpless, handcuffed prisoner.

Minutes later, 26-year-old hotelier Baha Mousa died despite desperate attempts to resuscitate him, a public inquiry into his death heard.

]http://www.septicisle.info/uploaded_images/bahamousa-715645.jpg (image)

^^ Baha Mousa

Read more: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1226396/Ex-soldier-admits-saw-colleagues-kicking-Iraqi-prisoner-minutes-died.html#ixzz0Wn3wVsUd

Edited November 14, 2009 by shiasoldier786

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

^ Please remove that photo immediately. You know better.

We could post pictures of dead people for hours because- if you can believe it- there are evil people out there in the world. That has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

I really do hope you don't think this type of exploitative behavior parallels your religious beliefs.

[shiasoldier786]

We could post pictures of dead people for hours because- if you can believe it- there are evil people out there in the world. That has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

This is one of the few reported examples of what is really happening...

It has EVERYTHING to do with the topic

You cant dismiss them as a few rogue soldiers. All this is happening under the eyes of senior army commanders.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

This is one of the few reported examples of what is really happening...

It has EVERYTHING to do with the topic

You cant dismiss them as a few rogue soldiers. All this is happening under the eyes of senior army commanders.

I appreciate you taking the pic down

Anyway, if you can use them to generalize millions I can dismiss them as a few rogue soldiers. I am not denying that this happens and that media can be biased (in soldiers favor when a war is popular and against them when it becomes unpopular), but this incident does not address the untimely/unnecessary comments.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam

[shiasoldier786]

I appreciate you taking the pic down

Anyway, if you can use them to generalize millions I can dismiss them as a few rogue soldiers.

Even the govt that they serve has "privately" legalized these practices. Take your mind back when it was discovered that the Heathrow Airport was being used to transfer "potential terrorists" lmao to secret CIA prisons.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Even the govt that they serve has "privately" legalized these practices. Take your mind back when it was discovered that the Heathrow Airport was being used to transfer "potential terrorists" lmao to secret CIA prisons.

I hate to shatter your "Iran can do no evil" world view but it is almost never pretty when ANY country pursues its foreign policy interests. It is all about power.

[shiasoldier786]

I hate to shatter your "Iran can do no evil" world view but it is almost never pretty when ANY country pursues its foreign policy interests. It is all about power.

Ok. So you agree that the British Govt allows all this to happen under their nose, be it the illegal transfer of so called "potential terrorists" to secret CIA prisons, or what happens in Iraq and Afganistan.

We all know that the British foreign policy interests is one that may very well be contradictory to the Sharia, hence why be surprised when asked not to serve their forces and further their goals.

Irans foreign policy has been consistent since 1979.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Ok. So you agree that the British Govt allows all this to happen under their nose, be it the illegal transfer of so called "potential terrorists" to secret CIA prisons, or what happens in Iraq and Afganistan.

We all know that the British foreign policy interests is one that may very well be contradictory to the Sharia, hence why be surprised when asked not to serve their forces and further their goals.

Irans foreign policy has been consistent since 1979.

Did anyone say I was surprised? Was I surprised that an Iranian representative asked Muslims not to join armies that go against the foreign policy interests of Iran? No.. I can't say this was much of a shocker.

My point was about the Muslims who feel that their presence is beneficial in restoring a broken Iraq/Afghanistan. There are Iraqi Muslims who are part of the American Department of Defense who are teaching American troops a lot and helping them deal with the sensitivities that come hand in hand with occupation of a land that is vastly alien. Iraqi Americans who are helping rewrite laws for a democratic Iraq that pay heed to the religious, cultural realities of the region, etc. I am not personally advocating the war or the inevitable abuses of power that occur, I am simply trying to get you to understand that the picture is not as black and white as you seem to be painting it.

Furthermore, I doubt I could have an honest, open dialogue about Iranian foreign policy with you so I won't even go there. Your opinions are so ingrained that I would have more luck trying to convince a palm tree to be reasonable.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam

[shiasoldier786]

Did anyone say I was surprised? Was I surprised that an Iranian representative asked Muslims not to join armies that go against the foreign policy interests of Iran? No.. I can't say this was much of a shocker.

This is a religious ruling, that has nothing to do with the Iranian foreign policy. Do you seriously think that a few muslim soldiers in Iraq or Afganistan are a threat to Iran? Or even whether the whole US Army stationed there is a threat?

Cummon, all the superpowers got together and armed Saddam to his teeth, provided him with atom bombs, latest weapons technology, etc, be it the US or Soviets, and all this while Iran was a weaked post-revolution State, and yet, they all got humiliated.

My point was about the Muslims who feel that their presence is beneficial in restoring a broken Iraq/Afghanistan. There are Iraqi Muslims who are part of the American Department of Defense who are teaching American troops a lot and helping them deal with the sensitivities that come hand in hand with occupation of a land that is vastly alien. Iraqi Americans who are helping rewrite laws for a democratic Iraq that pay heed to the religious, cultural realities of the region, etc. I am not personally advocating the war or the inevitable abuses of power that occur, I am simply trying to get you to understand that the picture is not as black and white as you seem to be painting it.

Furthermore, I doubt I could have an honest, open dialogue about Iranian foreign policy with you so I won't even go there. Your opinions are so ingrained that I would have more luck trying to convince a palm tree to be reasonable.

I wont doubt the fact that there are Iraqi Americans with pure intention to rebuild their Country, but this wont change the fact that the American government interests in Iraq are quite contradictory to theirs.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

This is a religious ruling, that has nothing to do with the Iranian foreign policy. Do you seriously think that a few muslim soldiers in Iraq or Afganistan are a threat to Iran? Or even whether the whole US Army stationed there is a threat?

Cummon, all the superpowers got together and armed Saddam to his teeth, provided him with atom bombs, latest weapons technology, etc, be it the US or Soviets, and all this while Iran was a weaked post-revolution State, and yet, they all got humiliated.

I wont doubt the fact that there are Iraqi Americans with pure intention to rebuild their Country, but this wont change the fact that the American government interests in Iraq are quite contradictory to theirs.

If you don't doubt that then there really is no debate here. America is in Iraq right now whether either of us like it or not and the current government system is neither autocratic nor democratic which is subjecting the Iraqi people to massive poverty, instability, and sectarian violence. The troops over there who are helping rebuild Iraq are not contradictory or "against" Islam but rather something that should stop being the subject of such unwanted interference, ESPECIALLY given what has recently happened in Fort Hood.

Again.. I am not going to discuss Iran with you because (as you demonstrated above) all you will do is spit back talking points.

[shiasoldier786]

If you don't doubt that then there really is no debate here. America is in Iraq right now whether either of us like it or not and the current government system is neither autocratic nor democratic which is subjecting the Iraqi people to massive poverty, instability, and sectarian violence. The troops over there who are helping rebuild Iraq are not contradictory or "against" Islam but rather something that should stop being the subject of such unwanted interference, ESPECIALLY given what has recently happened in Fort Hood.

Do you really think that American Soldiers give a tiny @@@@ about Iraq? Arent they the same ones who encouraged shias to rise up and get massacared in 1991, not backing them up as promised?

Take some advice from the noble Quran

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for protection) is of them..."

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Do you really think that American Soldiers give a tiny @@@@ about Iraq? Arent they the same ones who encouraged shias to rise up and get massacared in 1991, not backing them up as promised?

Take some advice from the noble Quran

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for protection) is of them..."

No.. that would be the American GOVERNMENT during that time :huh: Did you even read my post? You are on a random tangent that has nothing to do with the points I made.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Zahratul_Islam

[shiasoldier786]

The troops over there who are helping rebuild Iraq are not contradictory or "against" Islam but rather something that should stop being the subject of such unwanted interference

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

You said "wasnt it the american soldiers who promised the iraqis help, etc" and I said "no it was the American government"

What is that quote for?

[Rubaiyat]

/

We applaud the Iranian representative of Khamanei for his words.

This is not a matter of an Iranian man telling a British man to do so-and-so, It is a Muslim telling his brother, a Muslims not to fight under Koffar executive leadership, in particular because they attack, plot, brainstorm, take action against the Muslims and he will be directly participating in that. "Whoever is not concerned with the affairs of another Muslim is not from the Muslims."

Islam condemns ethnocentric, regiocentric or even polycentric mentalities

it is entirely geocentric or more simply universal and seeks loyalty among people with same beliefs, anywhere, any place

no culture, policial, social interest may stand in the way of Muslim wellbeing and ethical behaviour

Edited November 14, 2009 by Rubaiyat

[Guest]

Bullocks.

Now Iranian regime will tell British Muslims whether to join British armed forces or not. We already have a lot of troubles here with integration and we don't need this 'advice'.Thanks.

How is not joining the armed forces a threat to "integration"?

We should not ignore our own Muslim leaders and just follow our whims and desires, so we can become "Church of England" Muslims.

[Haji 2003]

This is not a matter of an Iranian man telling a British man to do so-and-so, It is a Muslim telling his brother, a Muslims not to fight under Koffar executive leadership, in particular because they attack, plot, brainstorm, take action against the Muslims and he will be directly participating in that. "Whoever is not concerned with the affairs of another Muslim is not from the Muslims."

:yaali:

Some points worth bearing in mind:

1. Britain's army is volunteer based. People choose whether or not to join. Not joining does not demonstrate lack of patriotism. I don't think many MPs children are in the Forces. I don't think many bankers, industrialists etc. have children in the Forces.

2. Arguably recent wars have not been about *defending Britain*, but they have been shown to be about promoting the interests of various industries and businessmen. There have been questions elsewhere whether or not these have been *moral wars*.

3. The execution of the conflicts e.g. *shock & awe* tactics and use of depleted uranium etc. have arguably meant that there are significant questions about the morality with which the conflicts have been undertaken.

4. Non-Muslims have raised questions about the ethics and morals of these wars, hence the calls for inquiries etc. (which will in fact take place).

Bearing all the above in mind, it is entirely reasonable for a community/religious leader to question whether or not members of their community should be taking part.

[Marbles]

Anyways, religious leaders from Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/etc always make me feel uneasy when they offer spiritual advice. There is a delicate mold and a radically different dynamic for Muslims who were born and raised in the West that they simply do not cater to very well. Maybe it is just a coincidence that most of the speeches on "womens rights" or women in general that are delivered by imported Imams make me walk out before they can "help a sista out."

+1 and an actual green one :D

[Noah-]

+1 and an actual green one :D

I thought it was 'orange' to salute Krishna! :D

[Hassan2jz]

Bullocks.

Now Iranian regime will tell British Muslims whether to join British armed forces or not. We already have a lot of troubles here with integration and we don't need this 'advice'.Thanks.

Troubles with integration? That is a bit of a lofty conclusion.

So you support the murder and rape of Iraqis and Afghanis?

True not all members of the armed forces would do this (for example, some help build shelter), but by and large the function of the kuffar armies is

to oppress the Muslim in the furtherance of their political and material aspirations. As Muslims we should avoid anything to do with the armies of the kuffar.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Hassan2jz

[Z.M]

whats wrong with what he said, why are some of you critisizing it...

Muslims should not be fighting in illegal wars, which only serve the purpose of stealing resources of western asia :angel: , killing muslims, and scarring their image to the world,

These wars in the Middle East are just morern day British and American Imperialism!!!! Why the hell would any muslim wanna fight in these wars anyway!

[Haji 2003]

You do a search on google and there's nothing (that I can see) about how many British parliamentarians have sons/daughters serving in Iraq/Afghanistan. No numbers, no percentages, nothing. Curiously there are links to comment pieces in newspapers where ordinary people ask this question - but there are never any answers. The closest you come to for an answer is with reference to Canadian parliamentarians.

Today, on the first anniversary of the decision to extend Canada's mission in Afghanistan to 2009, only a handful of the MPs who cast votes have personal ties to the Canadian Forces. None, as far as CanWest News Service can determine, is sharing directly in the burdens of Afghanistan. The same is true in the United States, where a provocative book titled AWOL: The Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service -- And How It Hurts Our Country, has questioned why no American politicians or leading opinion makers have sons or daughters serving in Afghanistan or Iraq, and why so few even have family in the military.

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=9e5be33a-9545-4a85-816c-f1356c083af8&sponsor=

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Non-Muslims can recognize these wars as oppressive.

Unfortunately, Shias, who echo the slogans of Imam Hussain (as) against the oppressor have no problems with aiding this oppressive war?

Even if it just to help these murderers understand the culture and religion, it is simply making it easier for the oppressive government to carry out its objectives. Instead of forcefully oppressing, they can now do it "nicely" due to Muslim sell-outs.

This is pathetic, and I swear, those of you who support this army, or those who agree nothing is wrong with joining these dhalim armies, by Allah (swt) you will get what you deserve on the day of judgment.

May Allah (swt) raise you with those you support, the enemies of Ahlul Bait (as) and Allah (swt).

Hasan Sajjad

President

I love how people on this forum try to justify their lack of reading comprehension by making it a matter of good vs evil. I guess that is the sign of a good Muslim nowadays.. making your stupidity a virtue.

Good people won't be afraid to face Allah (swt) on the day of judgement, they won't need labels or stamps of approval from people whose entire perception of reality comes from a few loaded youtube videos that supplement their ingrained biases. You can pray all you want that they are raised with "the enemies of ahlul bait" but it will be irrelevant because you yourself are irrelevant. ^_^

[shiasoldier786]

You said "wasnt it the american soldiers who promised the iraqis help, etc" and I said "no it was the American government"

What is that quote for?

Armies serve government interest.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Armies serve government interest.

The army did not lie to the people, the government did to serve its own interests in that region. That was my point.

[Marbles]

Troubles with integration? That is a bit of a lofty conclusion.

So you support the murder and rape of Iraqis and Afghanis?

True not all members of the armed forces would do this (for example, some help build shelter), but by and large the function of the kuffar armies is

to oppress the Muslim in the furtherance of their political and material aspirations. As Muslims we should avoid anything to do with the armies of the kuffar.

Excuse me but we are not talking about the ghazwa of Uhud. I do not see the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as a conflict between Muslims and 'kuffars'. That is a tad bit hoary given the political and social realities of modern nation states. True, Iraq was an illegal war, completely unnecessary and unjust, due to the result of which countless lives have been lost. I have never supported Iraq war and I will never support it. But needless to say that the invasion of Afghanistan was justified [but it took the wrong course]. Knowing what sort of people ruled there it wouldn't be hard for you to conclude who was more oppressive to the populace. The invaders or the invaded.

And No, the 'kuffar' armies are not there to murder and rape. Whoever has told you that has told a lie. I am not denying that abuse didn't take place or it does not take place but it is not a special case than any other cases of abuse (of innocents, including unjust killings) wherever a war breaks out. At least we know about Abu Gharaib. There are many little Abu Ghraibs in every tin pot sheikhdom in the ME - and no one knows about them. Talk about oppression mate, talk about it.

As a Muslim, and a practicing one, I am content with making an alliance with the armies of 'kuffar' against the so-called Muslims who ruled the country we know as Afghanistan.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Marbles

[AbdullaQ]

This is another clear example to any believer why the followers of the Imams from Ahl Al Bait, are the Muslims whom are actually acting on the teachings of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)

As a brother said before me: Why would a (believing) muslim even want to join this war?

Islam at it's basic level is Speaking the Oneness of the True God (Allah). Then faith enters the heart thus the more they learn from Allah, the more they reply "I hear and Obey! we seek your forgiveness oh our Lord!" (Sami3na wa Ata3na ghufranaka rabbana). This is a believing Muslim. Then there is the Muslims whom have heard, obeyed, and submitted fully. No Question. No doubt. Absolute certainty and belief. This is the Islam of Prophet Ibrahim as he was ready to slaughter his son, Prophet Ismail. This is the true Islam Prophet Israel (Yaqoob) followed and asked his children to follow. This is the highest level of Islam. The Islam as taught by The Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his Holy Household.

The A3rab (Nomads, or unlearned) said "We believe!". But no they have not. There will come a time if Allah wills it, and that will be true. For now say: "We Are Muslim".

Anyone whom has reached the point of "believe" (Eman) level of Islam will realize joining an ARMY against other muslims is NOT an option. May Allah strengthen the believers and ready us with the tools we need to support the believers TODAY and keep us patient until we see victory with the Imam (as) or in Paradise.

Peace.

[Rubaiyat]

Islam teaches us to look beyond any primitive oriented and superficial nation-state mentality outside of the box towards the ideological unity

in this case it is a matter of Kuffar versus Muslim

these armies go there to rape

Of course they will not tell this to you

they have PR men in nice suits and ties pleading the exact opposite

they will argue they are there for freedom, democracy, self protection, etc.

but anyone will understand this is a vicious empire expansion in addition to social and political dominance of the people they invade

when this is done a war of ideas takes place in order to sustain this dominance

Mcdonaldisation, publication of sexual tinted videos and media, homosexuality conflicts, segmentation of population into various ethnic factions that must either work together on this basis always wary of each other or wage war on this basis, introduction of consumer goods from america to propagate primitive buying urges and materialist lifestyles including open kitchens, plastic sexual accessories, eminem, boyfriend-girlfriend relationship discussions, halfnaked women on national televisions, setting up domestic porn industry, 2pac, playboy, burger king, etc.

Imam Khomeini was asked by Gorbachev his assistance in Afghanistan, he pleaded to the Imam that this surely would be beneficial as a nation-state. Imam refused and said he will not assist against Muslims in such a way, even if there are radical monkeys among them, he refused to allow a foreign, atheist body into this land of Muslims.

.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Rubaiyat

[Hassan2jz]

Excuse me but we are not talking about the ghazwa of Uhud. I do not see the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as a conflict between Muslims and 'kuffars'. That is a tad bit hoary given the political and social realities of modern nation states. True, Iraq was an illegal war, completely unnecessary and unjust, due to the result of which countless lives have been lost. I have never supported Iraq war and I will never support it. But needless to say that the invasion of Afghanistan was justified [but it took the wrong course]. Knowing what sort of people ruled there it wouldn't be hard for you to conclude who was more oppressive to the populace. The invaders or the invaded.

And No, the 'kuffar' armies are not there to murder and rape. Whoever has told you that has told a lie. I am not denying that abuse didn't take place or it does not take place but it is not a special case than any other cases of abuse (of innocents, including unjust killings) wherever a war breaks out. At least we know about Abu Gharaib. There are many little Abu Ghraibs in every tin pot sheikhdom in the ME - and no one knows about them. Talk about oppression mate, talk about it.

As a Muslim, and a practicing one, I am content with making an alliance with the armies of 'kuffar' against the so-called Muslims who ruled the country we know as Afghanistan.

The issue isn't an issue of, getting rid of ''so called Muslims'' etc. I am no Taliban supporter, read my posts if anything, I am anti-Taliban.

That said, I am not pro US/UK, it is one thing to say, oh they are doing the right thing, it is another do join their ranks and kill other Muslims (innocents who shock, horror aren't always the Taliban.)

And they most certainly do murder and rape! Not all of them, but these are issues within their ranks. To join an army that destroys innocent Muslims is clearly haram and doomed for failure, look at Afghanistan, it is worse than before the invasion, look at Iraq, it might not be worse, but look at all the lives lost.

If you are so keen to form an alliance, go join the UK army then, go to Afghanistan and fight for your cause.

[kadhim]

This is another clear example to any believer why the followers of the Imams from Ahl Al Bait, are the Muslims whom are actually acting on the teachings of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)

As a brother said before me: Why would a (believing) muslim even want to join this war?

Islam at it's basic level is Speaking the Oneness of the True God (Allah). Then faith enters the heart thus the more they learn from Allah, the more they reply "I hear and Obey! we seek your forgiveness oh our Lord!" (Sami3na wa Ata3na ghufranaka rabbana). This is a believing Muslim. Then there is the Muslims whom have heard, obeyed, and submitted fully. No Question. No doubt. Absolute certainty and belief. This is the Islam of Prophet Ibrahim as he was ready to slaughter his son, Prophet Ismail. This is the true Islam Prophet Israel (Yaqoob) followed and asked his children to follow. This is the highest level of Islam. The Islam as taught by The Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his Holy Household.

The A3rab (Nomads, or unlearned) said "We believe!". But no they have not. There will come a time if Allah wills it, and that will be true. For now say: "We Are Muslim".

Anyone whom has reached the point of "believe" (Eman) level of Islam will realize joining an ARMY against other muslims is NOT an option. May Allah strengthen the believers and ready us with the tools we need to support the believers TODAY and keep us patient until we see victory with the Imam (as) or in Paradise.

Peace.

They're not fighting Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're fighting the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and the former Ba'ath party membership.

None of these groups qualify as human, let alone Muslim.

But, alright, suppose we have a coalition of Muslim military forces (no, I'm actually serious, why are you laughing?!) go in to keep the peace? Just curious; who's volunteered so far?

Hey! Actually, there's a strategy for withdrawal. The NATO countries pull out, but in doing so, make a clear declaration - "Since the Muslim nations are so offended by the Dirty Kuffar doing peacekeeping in a Muslim nation, we consider it the responsibility of all Muslim nations to keep Afghanistan and Iraq from instability and extremism.

It is up to individual Muslim nations to decide whether to chip in to keep the peace, but know that if attacks are ever launched on us from Afghanistan or Iraq in the future, we will consider it a declaration of war by any of the nations who did not pitch in. Consider yourselves forewarned. Enjoy the fun."

Edited November 16, 2009 by kadhim

[Haji 2003]

They're not fighting Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're fighting the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and the former Ba'ath party membership.

And each one of those groups is one that they have supported, at one time or another. If foreign involvement in these countries was genuinely about giving power to the ordinary people, more of us would be supporting it.

However, it is clear that foreign involvement is not just about getting rid of the bad guys, but also one of putting someone in their place who the foreign powers approve of. That is a much trickier proposition to support.

But, alright, suppose we have a coalition of Muslim military forces (no, I'm actually serious, why are you laughing?!) go in to keep the peace? Just curious; who's volunteered so far?

Yes but it isn't just about "keeping the peace" is it? If it were, there would be NATO/Coalition involvement in far many more countries around the world.

but know that if attacks are ever launched on us from Afghanistan or Iraq in the future, we will consider it a declaration of war by any of the nations who did not pitch in. Consider yourselves forewarned. Enjoy the fun."

I can't believe a non-American actually wrote this. I thought Canadians were North Americans, with brains. There have never been any attacks launched on any one from Afghanistan or Iraq.

I wonder how many flying schools there are in Afghanistan? Oh yes of course, it wasn't about flying schools, Afghanistan provided the ideology. And precisely what infrastructure do you need to create an ideology that occupation will deal with?

It is true that Iraq has provided a fantastic training ground in urban warfare for extremists, but that's been after the American invasion, not before.

[kadhim]

Bottom line: if the Westerners move out, the Muslim nations are going to have to do more than their usual impotent fist waving, and actually take some respondibility for doing something productive to assist with the building of Afghanistan and Iraq and preventing a backsliding into chaos. I agree to Westerners getting out. Sounds good. I'm getting rather sick of my countrymen and women risking their lives and limbs for people who don't appreciate their risk and sacrifice. But the question remains: who is going to pick up the slack from the Muslim world to hold back al-Qaeda, the Ba'athis, and the Taliban?