Utterly Confused

[89jghur32]

I was listening to a Majalis held by Dr. Tahir ul-Qadri of Pakistan. What I'm confused about is that he seems to be Imami, yet he is Hanafi Sunni? What does this mean?

[Aabiss_Shakari]

He is Hanafi Brailvi Sunni. You can call him and other who follow him and many others to be Imami Sunni. I was attending the funeral of a woman belonging to Sunni Hanafi school and the man who lead the prayer belonged to "Dawat e Islami" group. He prayed "May Allah forgive this woman for the sake of Muhammad (pbuh), Ahl ul bait (as), Twelve Imams, and Sahaba Karaam (ra).

[gogiison2]

the way i usually reply to the likes of this or when people say i'm only muslim not sunni or shia. i usually give this parable; there is a man that goes out at night and 'takes' things. the next night he 'takes' a car not belonging to him and without permission. that same car he chops up like a chicken and sells the parts. now he may call himself a taker but i dont care what you say he is a thief to me lol.

Edited November 13, 2009 by gogiison2

[Abdaal]

I was listening to a Majalis held by Dr. Tahir ul-Qadri of Pakistan. What I'm confused about is that he seems to be Imami, yet he is Hanafi Sunni? What does this mean?

There is only a slight difference between what we believe about the 12 Imams and what the 12rs believe about them. The 12rs say these 12 Imams were appointed by God to rule over the Ummah. While we believe they were the spiritual heirs of the Prophet (pbuh).

[89jghur32]

There is only a slight difference between what we believe about the 12 Imams and what the 12rs believe about them. The 12rs say these 12 Imams were appointed by God to rule over the Ummah. While we believe they were the spiritual heirs of the Prophet (pbuh).

This is the first I've heard of this. Could you please give me some proof?

[Marbles]

I was listening to a Majalis held by Dr. Tahir ul-Qadri of Pakistan. What I'm confused about is that he seems to be Imami, yet he is Hanafi Sunni? What does this mean?

Tahir-ul-Qadari et al belong to a Hanafi (non-Salafi) group of Sunnis whose beliefs about the twelve Imams and related doctrines are very much similar to a historic group of Sunnis which was dubbed as Ithna 'Ashari Sunnis. They have sufi persuasion and believe that spiritual leadership (as opposed to temporal/political leadership) was bestowed on Ahalul bayt especially the twelve Imams, starting from Imam Ali. They are proper Sunnis in their all other beliefs.

[A true Sunni]

Tahir-ul-Qadari et al belong to a Hanafi (non-Salafi) group of Sunnis whose beliefs about the twelve Imams and related doctrines are very much similar to a historic group of Sunnis which was dubbed as Ithna 'Ashari Sunnis. They have sufi persuasion and believe that spiritual leadership (as opposed to temporal/political leadership) was bestowed on Ahalul bayt especially the twelve Imams, starting from Imam Ali. They are proper Sunnis in their all other beliefs.

There was recently a lecture on an Islamic Channel purporting to be Tahir al Qadri. He definitely was not Tahir al Qadri . Unless his facial features have changed significantly. I think there was a mistake in the labelling of the programme

Not sure who he was but he i suspect was Shiah. Tahir al Qadri as has been said is a Brelvi Hanafi Sunni who is a Mohibe-e-Ahlebait. Look up pic of Tahir Al Qadri and see if he was the same man

There is of course a Tahir Ghadiri ( I think his first name is Tahir) who is definitely Shiah

[Abdaal]

This is the first I've heard of this. Could you please give me some proof?

http://www.minhajbooks.com/english/control/btext/cid/2/bid/248/btid/758/read/txt/Preface-The%20Ghadir%20Declaration.html

Tahir ul Qadri just gave a few references. There are Sufis saints such as Shaykh akbar mohiyodeen ibn arabi, hazrat mojaddid alaf sani shaykh ahmed sirhindi, Imam abdul wahab shorani, Abdurrahnman Jami, shah wali Allah dehlavi, hazrat mehmood aloosi, hazrat mazher e janey jana, khuwaja gaiso daraz, Hazrat khuwaja gharib nawaz Moin uddeen chishti ajmeri- just to name a few- there is agreement amongst most that twelve imams are SPIRITUAL SUCCESSORS of Sarwar e konain(S). all batini-rohani uloom and marifa after the Prophet in an unbroken chain comes from the twelve Imams.

[Wahhabism4All]

Tahir ul Qadri just gave a few references. There are Sufis saints such as Shaykh akbar mohiyodeen ibn arabi, hazrat mojaddid alaf sani shaykh ahmed sirhindi, Imam abdul wahab shorani, Abdurrahnman Jami, shah wali Allah dehlavi, hazrat mehmood aloosi, hazrat mazher e janey jana, khuwaja gaiso daraz, Hazrat khuwaja gharib nawaz Moin uddeen chishti ajmeri- just to name a few- there is agreement amongst most that twelve imams are SPIRITUAL SUCCESSORS of Sarwar e konain(S). all batini-rohani uloom and marifa after the Prophet in an unbroken chain comes from the twelve Imams.

Bro Abdaal, most of Sunnis like myself don't believe in sufi saints. I don't agree with Tahir ul Qadri's views.

[A true Sunni]

Bro Abdaal, most of Sunnis like myself don't believe in sufi saints. I don't agree with Tahir ul Qadri's views.

salaam

Depends if you are a Wahhabified Sunni heavily influenced by petrodollar Islam or you are a Sunni who actually independently and critically evaluates information.

salaam

[Hassan2jz]

Bro Abdaal, most of Sunnis like myself don't believe in sufi saints. I don't agree with Tahir ul Qadri's views.

salaam

Depends if you are a Wahhabified Sunni heavily influenced by petrodollar Islam or you are a Sunni who actually independently and critically evaluates information.

salaam

WaSalaam.

Spot on.

The issue is, Wahabi Islam deliberately attempts to codify itself within mainstream Sunni Islam, whereby the clear picture becomes muddied.

Thankfully, as of recent we are witnessing a bit of a Sunni fightback and they are beginning to distance themselves from the Wahabbi Ideology,

this is particularly the case in terms of the anthropomorphism of Allah (swt) which is absurd in every aspect.

[Abdaal]

Bro Abdaal, most of Sunnis like myself don't believe in sufi saints. I don't agree with Tahir ul Qadri's views.

Yes, all sufis are sunnis, but all sunnis are not sufis. Just like all Sunnis are Muslim, but all Muslims are not Sunnis.

[Wahhabism4All]

salaam

Depends if you are a Wahhabified Sunni heavily influenced by petrodollar Islam or you are a Sunni who actually independently and critically evaluates information.

salaam

You're Shia, of course you will have this incorrect view: Play the blame game on "salafis". Just accept that we are orthodox.

Spot on.

The issue is, Wahabi Islam deliberately attempts to codify itself within mainstream Sunni Islam, whereby the clear picture becomes muddied.

Thankfully, as of recent we are witnessing a bit of a Sunni fightback and they are beginning to distance themselves from the Wahabbi Ideology,

this is particularly the case in terms of the anthropomorphism of Allah (swt) which is absurd in every aspect.

Actually, I'm noticing growing orthodoxy in Sunni Islam. Just because Sunnis don't believe in intercession doesn't mean we are "Salafi".

[A true Sunni]

You're Shia, of course you will have this incorrect view: Play the blame game on "salafis". Just accept that we are orthodox.

Actually, I'm noticing growing orthodoxy in Sunni Islam. Just because Sunnis don't believe in intercession doesn't mean we are "Salafi".

Actually I agree with you . Orthodoxy view means the 'majority view' . The majority view is unfortunately petrodollar Islam. It is intersting how petrodollar Islam has subverted Islam using the power of the mighty dollar.

[eThErEaL]

if Sunnism is not Sufism, then it is nothing but the cult of Ibn Taymiyyah which is not really Sunnism but a corruption of it.

[Marbles]

if Sunnism is not Sufism, then it is nothing but the cult of Ibn Taymiyyah which is not really Sunnism but a corruption of it.

Yes. The historical father-like figure-head for Wahhabis is Ibn Taymiyyah who was banished from his Syria before being beaten up by the Sunni scholars for his corrupted views.

[Wahhabism4All]

if Sunnism is not Sufism, then it is nothing but the cult of Ibn Taymiyyah which is not really Sunnism but a corruption of it.

You're a sad case. Vast majority of Sunnis do not believe in saints. Thank goodness. At the same time, we do not follow Ibn Taymiyyah.

We are the orthodox group of the world, not believing in man-made concepts such as intercession and Imamate.

[89jghur32]

You're a sad case. Vast majority of Sunnis do not believe in saints. Thank goodness. At the same time, we do not follow Ibn Taymiyyah.

We are the orthodox group of the world, not believing in man-made concepts such as intercession and Imamate.

How do you explain the incident when Imam Shafi'i went to the grave of Imam Abu Hanifa and used Abu Hanifa's great deeds in intercession in his own dua'a?

There is Imamate in Sunni Islam too, but our scholars have not expounded upon it out of the belief that doing so isn't necessary.

[Hassan2jz]

You're a sad case. Vast majority of Sunnis do not believe in saints. Thank goodness. At the same time, we do not follow Ibn Taymiyyah.

We are the orthodox group of the world, not believing in man-made concepts such as intercession and Imamate.

Really? Because last time I checked, the majority of Sunnis adhered to a madhab, each single one approving of intercession. See below.

You can't be half baked in your ideology, either you are a Salafi or you follow a madhab and are a Sunni.

How do you explain the incident when Imam Shafi'i went to the grave of Imam Abu Hanifa and used Abu Hanifa's great deeds in intercession in his own dua'a?

There is Imamate in Sunni Islam too, but our scholars have not expounded upon it out of the belief that doing so isn't necessary.

And there are countless other narrations in support of intercession. Therefore, if one follows a madhab, you must believe that intercession is permissible

(although you do not need to engage in it if you are not comfortable.)

[Wahhabism4All]

Really? Because last time I checked, the majority of Sunnis adhered to a madhab, each single one approving of intercession. See below.

You can't be half baked in your ideology, either you are a Salafi or you follow a madhab and are a Sunni.

Please don't define to me about Ahl-as-Sunnah to suit your tastes. It's like me saying you are either a Ghulat or a Zaidi Shia who believe in the first 3 Caliphs. Not fair, right?

And there are countless other narrations in support of intercession. Therefore, if one follows a madhab, you must believe that intercession is permissible

(although you do not need to engage in it if you are not comfortable.)

I've never met a Sunni who performs intercession. NEVER. In every single prayer that you perform, you recite Surah al-Fatiha (1:5 You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help) which clearly states there is no intercession. Right after that you perform duas asking for intercession from the Imams. This is hypocrisy. Do you value intercession more than Allah's(swt) word?

[89jghur32]

I've never met a Sunni who performs intercession. NEVER. In every single prayer that you perform, you recite Surah al-Fatiha (1:5 You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help) which clearly states there is no intercession. Right after that you perform duas asking for intercession from the Imams. This is hypocrisy. Do you value intercession more than Allah's(swt) word?

I don't agree with you. What about the intercession through the attributes of Allah? What about the intercession through the great deeds of great personalities? Both are allowed according to the majority of Sunni scholars. The blanket prohibition that you've mentioned is something that I've heard mainly from Salafi and Wahhabi scholars who are NOT representative of Ahlus Sunnah.

[89jghur32]

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4767&CATE=24

Clarification.

[Hassan2jz]

Please don't define to me about Ahl-as-Sunnah to suit your tastes. It's like me saying you are either a Ghulat or a Zaidi Shia who believe in the first 3 Caliphs. Not fair, right?

I've never met a Sunni who performs intercession. NEVER. In every single prayer that you perform, you recite Surah al-Fatiha (1:5 You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help) which clearly states there is no intercession. Right after that you perform duas asking for intercession from the Imams. This is hypocrisy. Do you value intercession more than Allah's(swt) word?

First point, well, I'm defining you according to what you say, what you say isn't the majority consensus. If I said, oh Imam Ali (as) should have been Caliph, Abu Bakr made a mistake, but

he was still the Caliph and should be respected, feel free to call me a Zaidi!

Second point, it doesn't matter who you have met or haven't met, what matters is scholarly consensus. Anecdotal evidence means nothing.

Third point, do you even understand tawassul? We still ask Allah for help THROUGH A MEDIUM. So yes, I agree with the verse you supplied, we only ask Allah (swt) for help, either directly or through a medium because:

"Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by his permission" (2:255); "Surely your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firmly established on the throne, regulating the affair; there is no intercessor except after His Permission."

Edited November 15, 2009 by Hassan2jz

[eThErEaL]

You're a sad case. Vast majority of Sunnis do not believe in saints. Thank goodness. At the same time, we do not follow Ibn Taymiyyah.

We are the orthodox group of the world, not believing in man-made concepts such as intercession and Imamate.

Everybody believes in saints. even nonmuslims. They dont necessarily have to call them "saints" but its implied. instead of the saints being the ahlul bayt (a.s) or the prophets or other holy men, people replace them for people like ibn taymiyyah, Jay-Z, Madonna, Obama, or Satan. Its in our blood to believe in saints. see?

Edited November 16, 2009 by eThErEaL

[zaigham abbas]

There is only a slight difference between what we believe about the 12 Imams and what the 12rs believe about them. The 12rs say these 12 Imams were appointed by God to rule over the Ummah. While we believe they were the spiritual heirs of the Prophet (pbuh).

This is the first time i am hearing of beleif in "12th" Imam by Sufis. DO they also beleive he is in occultation?

[Abu Tufayl]

This is the first time i am hearing of beleif in "12th" Imam by Sufis. DO they also beleive he is in occultation?

(bismillah)

Yes, at least Ibn Arabi did. He believed that al-Mahdi (aj) is ibn-al Hassan al-Askari (as) and is in ghaybah and shall return at the end of times - insha'Allah very soon.

(salam)

[zaigham abbas]

^Can you give me reference of this?

[Abdaal]

Its in his book titled the Meccan Revelations. Also, some Naqshbandis sufis believe in the 12th imam to be Imam Muhammad bin Hassan Al Askari (as). They claim he is in occultation. If I were to pick a Sufi group of today in terms of closeness, I would have to say the Naqshbandi/Haqqani sufis are closest to the 12r shia in their belief of the Mahdi.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Abdaal