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In the Name of God بسم الله

Solider Malik Hassan kills 12 marines in Texas

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Dear Iman,

I think that some members are finding your posts confusing. It would be good if you very clearly state your points (for instance, "X is Y") so that no one misunderstands.

Also, since you are new here, please remember that members come from various backgrounds (ethic, racial, religious,etc) and have many different perspectives. We have members from countries around the world. Remember that people in different countries have different views of the world. For instance, I wouldn't expect someone in Thailand to understand the racial problems in the US. What we can do is explain.

All we see here is a screen name - for instance, you do not know what country I am in or what color my eyes are. We sometimes imagine we know the people we see online and are surprised when we realize our ideas were wrong.

I would like to thank you for reminding the members that the n-word is insulting and not a joke. Like I said, everyone here does come from different backgrounds, so it is good to share our experiences and understanding with others.

However, just as you do not want to be insulted, please remember not to insult. "Blue eyed darling" might insult some people.When I read the verse about the hypocrites, I assumed you were calling EVERYONE a hypocrite. Please be specific about why you are citing verses, and also please be careful not to insult people.

followers of ahl ul bayt?

You disassociate from so and so because of Quran?

Finally, please stop reminding people "You say you follow Ahl al-Bayt but you dissociate from...." The site staff respect all the choices of belief of the members; however, we do not appreciate it when people come and make judgments. Also, "you" is very general as there are thousands of members registered at ShiaChat.

Sincerely

BintAlHoda

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Also, Arabs, north Africans, Iranians, and south Asians are every bit as Caucasian as "white" people. These terms are practically meaningless. It's a physical description, not a statement about what people believe. I once met a "black" family in which one of the daughters had blond hair, blue eyes, and skin as light at mine. (Recessive traits, I guess.) I thought that was super-cool because it was a reminder that there is not one person on earth who is not a mix of various races and ethnicities, so all y'all racist folks (including the ones who deny being racist) get over your self-righteous selves. If I'm guilty of the crimes of ancient white folks, you are too.

Bingo, smiley.

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(bismillah)

sister bint al hoda you have been very accomodating to me thank you :)

again i ask how can I possibly discuss every odious,shameful hypocritical,racist,lying,attention seeking,superior complex action without calling it that.

If I do it may seem as evil being noised abroad. So what will happen? it is likely I will be rebuked as you have done.

(bismillah)

(1) Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, except where injustice hath been done; for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things.

( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #148)

shia should be familiar with this concept since shia take the bold step of disasociation,and further lanat.

Now let me be very clear when I say that the bold step of disassociation means 'shia' have raised iman to high level perhaps the highest then made yourselves the lowest of creatures by aligning yourselves with people and concepts that are not deserved of the title you gave yourselves. i.e shia.

You have understood me perfectly and I am throwing back the chance to 'redeem myself' I have no need to explain myself since I have said nothing wrong.

I have been very clear in everything.

I will not de humanize myself to belong to shia chat, I am worth more than that. I came and I saw for myself what Allah permits me to see,and I have understood wht Allah has permitted me to understand.

what i have seen is grimey and odious

to the very silly people who practise group hostility are at loss for my removal (I am requesting at present) from them it is not the other way around go play with your tiny tears dolls. your mentality is abhorrant. :D

Edited by imanbeautysoap
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I agree and I stated this. He is accountable for his own actions. However, I'm in the habit of trying to understand. There is no justice without mercy and no mercy without justice.

On a positive note, his actions did open the door to some very fruitful conversation with my mother (who hates that I am Muslim and distrusts all "non-white" people until she gets to know them. Let's try to turn this into an open door, not an excuse to spread more hatred and mistrust.

Regarding the racial side-debate that this topic has diverged into: power corrupts all but the best of humans. It doesn't matter what race, color, or ethnicity they are. If they have power, they will eventually oppress those who are "different" if they are not guided. Those who desire power are the worst suited for it, and those who take it upon themselves as a burden are the best suited for it. Remember that before you start saying "If MY people were in power things would be different. . . "

Also, Arabs, north Africans, Iranians, and south Asians are every bit as Caucasian as "white" people. These terms are practically meaningless. It's a physical description, not a statement about what people believe. I once met a "black" family in which one of the daughters had blond hair, blue eyes, and skin as light at mine. (Recessive traits, I guess.) I thought that was super-cool because it was a reminder that there is not one person on earth who is not a mix of various races and ethnicities, so all y'all racist folks (including the ones who deny being racist) get over your self-righteous selves. If I'm guilty of the crimes of ancient white folks, you are too.

Sis again I think we need to draw the distinction between biological race and social/cultural race.

Race is negligible in biological terms. It is far from negligible in social/cultural terms. In biological terms, there are three races: caucasoid, negroid, mongoloid. In social/cultural terms, racial distinctions can be drawn based on the smallest of differences.

Biologically, of course Arabs, Iranians, North Africans, Desis (not to mention most of the people living in Latin America) are racially 'caucasian.' Culturally and socially, they are not.

Race is irrelevant in biology. It only gains important as a social construct. And therefore, by talking about biology in a discussion about race we miss the target all together.

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I agree and I stated this. He is accountable for his own actions. However, I'm in the habit of trying to understand. There is no justice without mercy and no mercy without justice.

On a positive note, his actions did open the door to some very fruitful conversation with my mother (who hates that I am Muslim and distrusts all "non-white" people until she gets to know them. Let's try to turn this into an open door, not an excuse to spread more hatred and mistrust.

Regarding the racial side-debate that this topic has diverged into: power corrupts all but the best of humans. It doesn't matter what race, color, or ethnicity they are. If they have power, they will eventually oppress those who are "different" if they are not guided. Those who desire power are the worst suited for it, and those who take it upon themselves as a burden are the best suited for it. Remember that before you start saying "If MY people were in power things would be different. . . "

Also, Arabs, north Africans, Iranians, and south Asians are every bit as Caucasian as "white" people. These terms are practically meaningless. It's a physical description, not a statement about what people believe. I once met a "black" family in which one of the daughters had blond hair, blue eyes, and skin as light at mine. (Recessive traits, I guess.) I thought that was super-cool because it was a reminder that there is not one person on earth who is not a mix of various races and ethnicities, so all y'all racist folks (including the ones who deny being racist) get over your self-righteous selves. If I'm guilty of the crimes of ancient white folks, you are too.

Your habit of trying to understand is not only good but rather very important, not many people think about the motives. And you're right regarding the racial side debate, your comment should be the closure of this side of the debate.

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^I didn't mention biology. ;)

Culture does influence a person's character development, but it doesn't define a person. Am I "white" to you?

Sis you're above the fray

I don't count you as belonging to a race because clearly you do not identify with any particular race

But race and nationalism are important for less reasonable people like myself (and we constitute a majority, unfortunately)

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"Beware the perfidious albion"- a really famous French dude said this and he was referring to the Anglo-Saxon race. Allah created everyone equal BUT gave us Free Will so we decide which side we follow. However, Allah also mentions several times in the noble Quran that there are ppl He deliberately drives astray (the zalimun) and He guides those whom He will. Now, OBVIOUSLY every blue-eyed person is not evil BUT...you know what...to be honest, I'm very hesitant/cautious abt befriending a blue-eyed, light-skinned person. Just like I avoid fights with very slim ppl. For some reason, very fragile looking ppl always turn out to be the most vicious and strong inside. Also, I'm more suspicious of men than women. 4 out of 5 men have a mild degree of sociopath traits, whereas in women it's like 1 out of several 1000. Look at the REALLY sicko serial killer pervs in history- white-skinned males! Jeffrey Dahmer used to pick on Asian boys specifically. white-skinned, blue-eyed non-Muslims see Muslims men with beards and think "terrorist" whereas those in Muslim parts of the world look at white-skinned, blue-eyed men and think "bi-fag, perv, genocide etc etc etc..." Also, I honestly believe if someone does you a lot of harm, it'll always turn out to be a relative/close friend- ie one of your own kind. Basic point is: be cautious. Learn from history. Give the benefit of the doubt but be cautious. Stereotypes exist and there is usally good reason behind them. Not everyone fits the stereotype but ....So. That's my 2 cents. Btw we're like waaaay off-topic here???

Edited by Shia Butterfly
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Look at the REALLY sicko serial killer pervs in history- white-skinned males!

Yazid and Shimr were Arabs, and hence real sickos, does that make all arabs bad? I'm sorry but this is the worst argument I've ever heard!

I've lived among "white people" here in the UK, and have had them as teachers, neighbours, friends, etc, and they are very welcoming people

ps.. im sure they are worse pervs in different parts of the World, but these go unreported, not having the media sensationalism there.

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Lanati yazid&co were the equivalent of modern-day Wahhabis and I wouldn't befriend them anymore than I'd befriend Jeffrey Dahmer!!!! Of course, many white ppl are "welcoming." The point is to use your brain, be cautious, and befriend those who follow your path! Keep old words of wisdom (the words of the noble Quran, the Imams, ppl of wisdom) in your mind when dealing with a stranger. this si no longer the good ol' safe 80's and 90's when ppl coexisted happily with each other. I mean, how do I know who shiasoldier786 or anyone really is, who they work for etc? Shaisoldier could be sitting on his computer listening to that other lanati Zakir Naik right now, for all I know! Even when you come across a Muslim- keep in mind there's a BIG diff between being born into Islam and actually being a Muslim. You'll find most real-life Muslims don't even bother going on Muslim forums because one doesn't know who is posing as what to spread what agenda....and quite frankly, I for one, do not care. Keep suspicion in the back of your mind when dealing with strangers, until the person proves him/herself reliable. Just btw fyi- as for the perv issue- I think you'l find most ppl in 3rd world countries are too busy working 12 hrs a day to make just a few dollars to buy a little food for their children to really be pervs. You'll find most real sickos come from educated, middle-to-upper class families and therefore most ppl from villages in 3rd world countries are neither pervs nor terrorists. I'm not here to convince anyone my stereotypes and methods are the ones to choose- I'm just saying this is what I go by, ya know?

\

Yazid and Shimr were Arabs, and hence real sickos, does that make all arabs bad? I'm sorry but this is the worst argument I've ever heard!

I've lived among "white people" here in the UK, and have had them as teachers, neighbours, friends, etc, and they are very welcoming people

ps.. im sure they are worse pervs in different parts of the World, but these go unreported, not having the media sensationalism there.

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Lanati yazid&co were the equivalent of modern-day Wahhabis and I wouldn't befriend them anymore than I'd befriend Jeffrey Dahmer!!!! Of course, many white ppl are "welcoming." The point is to use your brain, be cautious, and befriend those who follow your path! Keep old words of wisdom (the words of the noble Quran, the Imams, ppl of wisdom) in your mind when dealing with a stranger. this si no longer the good ol' safe 80's and 90's when ppl coexisted happily with each other. I mean, how do I know who shiasoldier786 or anyone really is, who they work for etc? Shaisoldier could be sitting on his computer listening to that other lanati Zakir Naik right now, for all I know! Even when you come across a Muslim- keep in mind there's a BIG diff between being born into Islam and actually being a Muslim. You'll find most real-life Muslims don't even bother going on Muslim forums because one doesn't know who is posing as what to spread what agenda....and quite frankly, I for one, do not care. Keep suspicion in the back of your mind when dealing with strangers, until the person proves him/herself reliable. Just btw fyi- as for the perv issue- I think you'l find most ppl in 3rd world countries are too busy working 12 hrs a day to make just a few dollars to buy a little food for their children to really be pervs. You'll find most real sickos come from educated, middle-to-upper class families and therefore most ppl from villages in 3rd world countries are neither pervs nor terrorists. I'm not here to convince anyone my stereotypes and methods are the ones to choose- I'm just saying this is what I go by, ya know?

\

Too many sterotypes and baseless assumptions. I urge you to go outside your house for once and meet new people for yourself.

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I did notice, though, that apparently hijab cancels out whiteness in the public perception.

This is true, but white muhajabahs generally benefit a lot from 'white privilege' and generally carry all the social advantages of being white even though they may face surface prejudice when they wear hijab.

for those not familiar with the phrase, here is a link to a famous article on white privilege, i'll just quote a couple parts

(Ok, i've gven up on staying 'on topic myself....')

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

I have often noticed men's unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged.They may say they will work to women's statues, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening men's. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women's disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended.

Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there was most likely a phenomenon of while privilege that was similarly denied and protected. As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage.

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.........

<Many paragraphs later>

Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

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Your assumption that anything you urge anyone to do would be taken seriously is really what gives you low credibility in my book. in case you haven't noticed- to me at least, you're a nobody. Just another face behind a monitor. Your other assumption (that I formed these stereotypes by NOT leaving my house and meeting ppl) gives you even lower credibility in my book. These are the stereotypes I go by, I've based them on good experiences and words of wisdom. They work for me, and I will continue to go with them. As I said- I'm not here to insist everyone must go by the same stereotypes. I'm just saying they work for me and it would take more than a "Shiasoldier786"" to change them. Also, aren't you the dude who invented some story about how US congress sent you some silly letter of warning but you conveniently trashed it before you could copy&print it? I'm thinking "fruuuuuuuitcake!" As I said, I know what works for me and what path I follow. I really can't be bothered to sit around pushing it on random strangers. (I honestly don't really care what agenda anyone is pushing. It has zero impact on me. The fact my words often make ppl inadvertently reveal their true intentions is a diff matter.I do have that effect in real life, too. Weird but again- who cares? I know where I stand) End of debate.Oh wait- there was no debate coz no one really cares.

Too many sterotypes and baseless assumptions. I urge you to go outside your house for once and meet new people for yourself.

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Also, aren't you the dude who invented some story about how US congress sent you some silly letter of warning but you conveniently trashed it before you could copy&print it?

LOL! WTF? you high on crack or summin?

I'm thinking "fruuuuuuuitcake!" As I said, I know what works for me and what path I follow. I really can't be bothered to sit around pushing it on random strangers. (I honestly don't really care what agenda anyone is pushing. It has zero impact on me. The fact my words often make ppl inadvertently reveal their true intentions is a diff matter.I do have that effect in real life, too. Weird but again- who cares? I know where I stand) End of debate.Oh wait- there was no debate coz no one really cares.

I aint pushing no agenda. All I was doing was pointing out that from my first hand experiance, that most "light skinned blue eyed people" I've come across are welcoming and plesant people, contrary to you labelling them as "pervs"

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LOL this reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother. She was saying that Muslims are dangerous and blow things up etc, you know all the stuff that people here have been brainwashed to believe. I said "what about me?" to which she replied "you're not the same because you don't come from a Muslim background." I then said "what about so-and-so your friend who you work with?" She said "Oh, she's different. She's alright." And each individual I mentioned was ok, but she still clung to the stereotype, saying that those people she knew were different somehow from the majority. Isn't it funny how people are different from the stereotype when you know them as individuals, and yet somehow, people can manage to hold on to the stereotype?

BTW, I'm about the whitest white person I know. I'm so pale I look light blue. Furthermore, I talk white, I like to eat white people food, and all my known ancestors were white, mostly "white trash" subsistence farmers and factory workers (i.e. illiterate hillbillies and rednecks). Most of my ancestry is unknown due the the fact that most of my ancestors were illiterate and poor, but of the known ones, they are German, English, and Welsh. I don't think a person can be more white than that. :P I did notice, though, that apparently hijab cancels out whiteness in the public perception.

Humans are such strange creatures!

I wasn't saying you were above other white people, I was saying that you were above other people in general.

Most people genuinely care about race and nationality. You are one of the few who does not.

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I said that bhai because many of them are under the impression that they have a lot of concern for their fellow man when in fact they justify some of the most horrific crimes.

Every decent person regardless of race has concerns for the oppressed and needy. Powerful nations, due to their greater influence, are naturally in a position to mediate/intervene to end conflicts if so they wish. But that normally doesn't happen because policies in the corridors of power are dictated by self-interest not justice. It doesn't mean that today's powerful nations, who are mostly run and inhabited by whites, do what they do because of their light skin colour relative to the less powerful.

And I never said anything was inherent so I don't know why you're bringing up China. I will be the first to admit the Japanese crimes against China were among the worst in history (and neither of them are white). That would only be relevant if I were arguing that whites are inherently oppressors (which I am not).

Please re-read your very first reply in response to my post.

I am not confusing them with attacks on the non-Western world. They ARE attacks on the non-Western world. They define who is civilized based on who best imitates them.

I know where you are coming from and I disagree. Democracy, rights of an individual, equality among citizens, freedom of choice and other ideas, as we understand them today, were born in the West but they are no longer Western. They are universal. There is general international agreement on these values. Just like modern medicine, information technology, masterpieces of engineering, which also originated in the West, are no longer exclusively Western.

Edited by Marbles
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I know where you are coming from and I disagree. Democracy, rights of an individual, equality among citizens, freedom of choice and other ideas, as we understand them today, were born in the West but they are no longer Western. They are universal. There is general international agreement on these values. Just like modern medicine, information technology, masterpieces of engineering, which also originated in the West, are no longer exclusively Western.

Indeed. It is "human" knowledge, just as algebra, coffee drinking, and rational theology are no longer "Arab" or "Muslim" culture, but human culture.

The question is not, "where does it come from," but "does it work, consistently, over the long run?" There's a lesson to be learned by us in how the Europeans amalgamated Arab thought in the pre-Renaissance period, echoing the history of how Muslims amalgamated and incorporated the thought of Persians, Indians, Greeks, Egyptians. They looked at it, sifted out what didn't work, and grabbed wholehertedly what did worl and ran with it. We should not be afraid of an idea that originated in the West if it works. God wants us to succeed and thrive, so if an idea or technique works over the long run (not just a temporary cheating), thatis a sign that God approves, that it is somehow in tune with the correct way of things.

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Whether this dude's actions were halal or haram is NOT the question. The question is: how does the US military allow harrassment of Muslims in the first place? Why haven't the "harrassers" been charged and thrown in jail? If I'm not mistaken, a person can be thrown in the slammer for 5 yrs for denying the holocaust. So how do they allow a high-ranking officer to be put through such severe harrassment that he shoots ppl? This reflects on the US military far more than it reflects on this individual. It doesn't sound to me like this man was anywhere near mentally ill. I think he was just sick of the hypocrisyand the bull[Edited Out] called "US military." Also, the US military's harrassment of Muslim officers fits right in with ehtier policies of torture, raping children, etc. It really seems as tho the US military is one biiiiig SINKING SHIP! This whole story stinks of "Staged" to me. Sounds too much like their l'il conspiracy theory of "19 hijackers from the caves of Afghanistan attacked our twin towers." uh...okay. Also, having been on other forums (mainly Yahoo) I can tell you for a FACT there are certain indiviuduals who seem to be online 24/7, on those forums, just so they can harrass Muslims who come on the forum. Like, they are on there 24/7 and all they are doing is bashing Islam/harrassing Muslims/talking about hwo they are glad US soliders rape&kill Muslim children etc etc. Obviously, someone's paying them to spread this hatred. Obviously, this is not how the average American civilian is. In fact, I still have many fo the harrassment mssgs they sent me saved, along with their id's. These ppl are very similar to Nazis and like their predecessors they WILL be tried for war crimes 5-10 yrs. So anytime you come across ppl targetting you for being muslim, don't go on a shooting spree- just save their messages and report when the time is right!

P.S just btw- isn't it amusing how the views of 90% of the users on Muslim forums do NOT represent regular Muslims anwyhere in the world?

[Lol, I TOTALLY just posted the SAME thing, sis! Then went back and read the other posts and saw "ohhhh a cute little beauty soap thinks like me!" (just btw- why Iman? why not Dove or Pears?) Also sis, you're right abt the blue-eyed ppl being the zalimun. It's in the Quran. Imam Hussain also insulted one of the lanati soliders of lanati's army by calling him "the son of a blue-eyed woman." In Asia&ME ppl often say "beware of those with blue ro green eyes." There's also what the West refers to as the Nephilim race etc etc...yeah, there's def a connection b/ween blue-eyes and inherent evil. Not saying eVERYONE with blue eyes is that way- just that maybe they have a higher propensity towards it? Also, dont' forget- they say Munqar and NAqir have blue eyes and that is another sign of "fallen angels" ...and if I'm not mistaken, the fallen angels are the ones who disobeyed God? SO yeah, you have a point! No, you have two points: instead of wondering whether thsi major did right ro wrong, wonder WHY and HOW they allowed his colleagues to harrass him to this point? What a sinking ship the US Military and their cohorts are. Anyoen who is friends with them si pretty much sunk, too.

quote name=imanbeautysoap' date='06 November 2009 - 08:39 AM' timestamp='1257514759' post='1982343]

(bismillah) (salam)

CIA dont put it past them to give him some best buddies who yapped on and on about injustice, and some mind altering stuff in his tea, then target him with outgroup hostility to get his alienated and oppressed juices going then voila! they have another reason to take away more liberties and more hate for muslims.

Its always a conspiricy! :unsure: ( it always is) :squeez: they probably had some agents talking day and night about how they are going to kill iraqis and undress and rape muslims etc.etc to push his mind into previously unthinkable acts.

funny how he studied for a degree in an institution then suddenly went awol in the military. The question is what did they do to him, that he became extreme?

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No, you're wrong Marbles. Many times I read very insensitive racist comments about Arabs on SC and it stays as it is, no mod interfere, but I guess you have to be Arab to notice these comments(that are let go loosely) as much I do. Just a few days ago, a very offensive post was made against Arabs. I usually don't waste my feelings to get offended so I never report these posters however that does not mean I don't notice them.

If I can smell racism against whites being a non-white, I am sure I can also notice racist diatribes against Arabs as a non-Arab :P - Nah really, I am not oblivious to racially/ethnically motivated remarks against Arabs on SC, both explicit and implicit. I was speaking to my friend the other day about an Iranian ex-mod who considered Arabs as trash and believed that they were unfit to rule themselves. He thought that Arabs 'behaved' well so long as Iranians (and Turks et al) ruled them. Anyway - But it not unreasonable to conclude that while racism against Arabs and South Asians (who are most visibly Muslims) gets a censor, racism against whites is not taken seriously. This is perhaps because we as Muslims are more sensitive to racist and prejudiced slurs directed at us than at 'the outsiders.' It kind of validates your point that you have to belong to that race/ethnicity to notice those slurs.

A few ignorant and racists on SC doe not speak for most Muslims just like a few hundred Canadian racists do not speak for the majority of Canadians. I am a Muslim who hold A LOT of respect for converts and NOT because they're interesting objects or "interesting pets"(like smiley said) but because I admire their sincerity in searching for the true path, whether these converts are white American or black African it makes no difference to me. It has nothing to do with the interesting blue eyed wearing Hijab(my own sister, born Muslim and Arab from both parents is a blond with blue eyes, it's NO big deal), no it's all about them finding Islam with their own effort and sincere intentions, it's just ADMIRABLE , why is this feeling bad towards them? Why is this feeling or respect translates to "are interested like their interest for interesting objects" ?? I don't get it really.

I agree that it is naive to believe that the sample on SC is representative of the wider Muslim world. I also don't think that most Muslims in the West, at least in Western European countries, represent the wider Muslim world. I would not worry if the behaviour that we have seen from some Muslims in this thread was indeed rare and came out of the blue. But this isn't the case. There are masses of "little Englander" sort of people among us who are politically bitter, caving in history, culturally exclusive and have a prejudiced view of 'the others' - and I feel like banging my head against the nearest wall when I see them justifying their nonsense with hiding behind Islam.

As for the white converts, it is more than just having the feeling of respect. It is a unique opportunity to see a white (not even a black) convert. Not many such folks around are they? But they are only good from a distance. They are unwelcomed the moment they show intention to marry your son or daughter. Why? because they are 'different.' This is taking white converts as objects not as equal humans and Muslims. I have also observed that the intrigue fueled interest that Muslims show towards white converts evaporates when it comes to non-white converts. A Hindu or African or South East Asian convert is not likely to attract the same level of interest from born Muslims as white converts. Perhaps a feeling of some sort of inferiority still sits deep in the subconscious of some (non-white) Muslims. Don't be surprised. We have a couple posters here who have admitted discomfort at their background and wished they were white. I have people in my extended family who think whites are beautiful, we and blacks ugly. So there. . .

Edited by Marbles
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As for the white converts, it is more than just having the feeling of respect. It is a unique opportunity to see a white (not even a black) convert. Not many such folks around are they? But they are only good from a distance. They are unwelcomed the moment they show intention to marry your son or daughter. Why? because they are 'different.' This is taking white converts as objects not as equal humans and Muslims.

Alhamdullilah I do not think like this about converts, and I'm sure most Muslims of our generation don't think like this either. It is very hypocrite to welcome them from distance only etc, again maybe people from my grand mother's generation might have a different opinion but not us. Also , we hold an equal respect and "waw mashallah" feelings towards convert whether they are white or black, the same "waaw mashallah" feeling we hold towards example an Arab sunni who converts to Shiism . Maybe the "waaw" is less when it's a Christian Arab converts to Islam, because it is easier for someone who comes from a Muslim country, surrounded by Muslims, share a lot of the same culture etc to become Muslim, in other words the effort "seem" to be less for them(Arab converts) than it is for someone who lived in a completely different culture, who's values/culture are very different, who lived in a non-Muslim country etc etc to actually convert to Islam, the effort is obviously more- or so I think. Point is, the interest in them is related to their spirituality and effort rather than their color because as you said some Iranians can be as white as Germans, some Arabs and some Kashmiris too .

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TNN recently taken a short interview hours after Major recovered from coma:

TNN: As you know so far state apparatus failed to produce any link to terror network, no one has said any negative words against your personality/ character, can you briefly tell us the main motive of your holy hostile mission? This is multimillion dollar question and American tax payers can save this money to boost falling economy by curtailing budget expenditure on FBI investigation on your trial.

NMH: As our freinds and brothers know since several decades what's going on around this globe , how facts are twisted to launch wars on false accusations. Iused to listen shock and horror stories from my Dad/Mom. they were never short of stories and each night they have enlighten me with a new true story from their fatherland. Moreover , my comrades, colleagues have humiliated me , my religion, my holy book on several instances, being a soldier and a Doctor, I am fed up of the false and evil propaganda. I can absorb/tolerate humiliation about my personality , but not against the religion. How can you expect forces stand united if we curse others religion at cofee/dinner time while on official duty? Is this what are we paid for? Recently I became enraged when Bush armed Al-Qaeda in Iraq and Obama armed Taliban in Afghanistan/ Pakistan to fight Israel's wars. My question is how can you trust the enemies, how can you arm terrorists, how can you deal with militants. Moreover, Obama-Clinton on-going support for Israei atrocities and the change in their position regarding Israeli illegal settlements, was one of the main factors behind my outrage.

TNN: What do you want to say about British colonial tactics to talk with the devils?

NMH: As you know we have a military proverb: "If you can't kill them make them friends" Like us, Britishers failed to restore peace in and around their bases, locals don't want to see them policing their farmlands, what do you feel if a foreign force land in homeland and start killing us britally, off course we will too fight and resist foreign intervention. Despite Britain lost more then 200 soldiers, but most of the time they say its freindly fire , may I ask are Americans/NATO forces playing a friendly client game with Karzai? Their own poll shows majority of Britons oppose Afghan war and in the same way you can see what percent of Americans like wars.

TNN: Major tell us then why people line up and want to go for war?

NMH: As you know American economy is rapidly suffered due to heavy investment in war , war machinery and on the name of reconstruction billions of dollars drained out of border, in this worst finacial crisis, people need money to pay for day to day expenses, they have good offers/packages as country is in dire need of soldiers to finish Unfinished wars, how can we open another front without winning Iraq.

TNN: Major, with utmost honor , this is not your business being a soldier?

NMH: I know military rules, SOPs, protocols more then you. As per consitution I have rights to think independently out of my working hours. If I spent my days and nights treating severely wounded soldiers, how can you deny rights to such a serviceman?

TNN: Irrespective of your unjust operation on Novth 05th Do you hope fair trial being beseiged from all angles by heavy amount of reinforcement around you?

NMH: Being a soldier and a Doctor, I don't feel alien among the country men protecting me. They are paid for to do this job.

If you guys know I am dedicated military doctor since several years and I am used to work in hospital environment for long hours, I came across 100s of security men ,army teams at all times, so it doesn't matter to me and I am not under any pressure looking the strict security around me in the history of American Armed Forces.

As long as they give access to my lawyer/military attorney, I am very much confident to expose roots of evil in our system and regime. They can kill me, shoot me in fake fight , poison me, hang me , but there is no Gurantee, tomorrow there will be another 115.

TNN: What are your marriage plans?

NMH: My youth age passed serving the nation, moreover I didn't find a suitable girl from our homeland , who is hejabi and prays 5 times daily, I hope I may get some golden matches as shoe thrower got after his lovely action.

TNN: What do you want to say about Obama?

NMH: I don't see any difference between G.W. Bush and Obama impotence in facing Israeli crimes and violations. Terrorist Netanyahu has already defied Obama and Bush calls to dismantle the settlements in the occupied West bank. Obama is the black face of Jewish-controlled America. briefly, no-one can challenge the Jewish lobby!

TNN: Do you think America is against Islam?

NMH: “Only a fool thinks others are fools”. The humiliation a person receives with a Muslim name at the US border checkpoints pulls the rug from under the feet of all what the CIA is tying to promote. This has diverted thousands of Muslim students away from US high education institutions. I can tell to the CIA campaigners by asking the following questions:

1.Why the Americans are not imposing economic sanctions or invading Israel for being in breach of 39 UN Security Council resolutions the way they did to Muslim Iraq?

2.Why the Americans are not sending weapon inspectors to disarm Israel huge stockpile of all types of Weapons of Mass Destruction, including 400 nuclear war head, the way they disarmed Saddam and their current campaign against Muslim Iran.

3.Why the Americans are not asking the Israeli to leave occupied Arab territories the way they did to free Kuwait from Saddam army?

4.Why the Americans are not insisting on Israel to free the 12500 prisoners currently languishing in Israeli desert concentration camps while campaigning to free the arrested dissidents in Muslim Iran?

5.Why the Americans are not asking the International court of justice to prosecute Israeli Nazi Generals for their crimes in Gaza, the way they prosecuted Muslim President Omar Al-Bashir for the crimes in Darfur?

TNN: Thanks Major for your time and your views, we hope your soon recovery and best health and will invite you to our Sadr/Saada City studios soon.

NMH: You all welcome.

Edited by Honorable Army Doctor
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I know where you are coming from and I disagree. Democracy, rights of an individual, equality among citizens, freedom of choice and other ideas, as we understand them today, were born in the West but they are no longer Western. They are universal. There is general international agreement on these values. Just like modern medicine, information technology, masterpieces of engineering, which also originated in the West, are no longer exclusively Western.

Meh...

What has democracy done that's so great? Likewise to technology and modern medicine?

Yeah democracy is great for rich white folks but it's a non-issue for someone who is starving to death in Niger. Information technology makes life easier for you or me (although even that could be debated considering that it adds some unnecessary complications), but not for the vast majority of people (who don't have access to it). Modern medicine makes life expectancy high in the Western countries, but not in Swaziland (where it's below 40 years).

It seems to me that these things only serve to improve the lives of certain people (i.e. us) while ignoring (or exploiting) the masses.

Even looking strictly at the Western world, we see that the majority of East Germans think their lives were better BEFORE the reunification. Think about that: most of East Germans prefer a communist dictatorship to a liberal democracy!

The 'goodness' of these things is hardly self-evident.

Moreover, the 'universalization' of these values was not a result of the people of the world embracing them with open arms! No no no... it was a result of cultural imperialism.

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I'm more concerned about prejudice from so many other Muslims than from the ignorant people. We have Islam: we know better.

it's not about 'knowing better' or being 'racist'. but acknowledging that being white gives a person a lot of privileges in society - beginning with the idea that one's way of thinking is standard and valid, and everyone else's is 'minority' - and well basically going through most of the above list.

islam itself does not deny the existence of races or ethnicities (after all, the verse says 'we divided you into tribes') but teaches us the right philosophy to have about those real divisions. it is not possible to make racial or cultural conflicts disappear just by saying that race is not important.

every single muslim person - even if they follow the islamic philosophy of racial and cultural equality - still comes with a cultural background of some kind that informs their view of the world. it may be a very complex background (for instance, someone who has lived in many different countries or is multilingual) but everyone still HAS some kind of background.

one of the things that is generally listed as 'white privilege' is 'being able to feel as if one has no race or no culture' - because one is not obviously different from the majority around them, so one does not have to distinguish one's culture. in contrast, let's say the US were 90% mexican, then white people would not be able to feel 'cultureless' because their culture and lifestyle would be different than the majority people.

most of those advantages are there whether someone is muslim or not muslim. for instance, most whites have access to better education, better health care, etc, than other groups in the us. 'modern standard english' is defined as 'english the way middle class white people speak it'. etc. the literature and history at school is largely white european literature and perspective, etc.

the prejudice that white muslims face in the us from non muslims is surface prejudice, not institutionalized prejudice.

this is just reality, i'm not saying one has to feel morally guilty because one has the majority advantage. but it is a moral thing to acknowledge it and recognize that others don't have it. and then to make sure that one person's advantage does not unintentionally lead to another person's disadvantage.

that lack of recognition is what can cause arguments like the dispute on this thread which seemed to be more of a disagreement in worldview and experiences, rather than ideas.

'white privlege' definitely does extend into the immigrant muslim community in the US, especially thanks to colonialism.

a sister wrote a blog about this a while back. i'll post it here because she has some good points.

This is just a collection of my reflections. A lot of it is just observations or thoughts I had from watching myself or people around me, and also from reading some other carnival posts or their respective comments and reflecting a bit. A lot of it comes from just taking basic anti-racism rhetoric about white privilege and adding a white Muslim convert twist to it. So here you have it.

1. White Western Muslims are highly valued in Muslim communities. Yep, I know we face flack, too. We do talk about that a lot, don’t we? I am not talking about the downside here though. I am talking simply about white privilege and the Ummah. We are valued above converts of color, for sure. And although our presence may be of trivial value in the big picture of our personal Muslim communities, we are often selected to be the faces of these communities in the public sphere. In other words, highly public representatives of our community, motivational speakers, organization leaders and so forth are often white, while our communities are mostly of color. We are valued because of White Supremacist structures that say White is Right, so if a White Person chooses Islam as Right, it validates Islam. It means Islam is Right. I know Islam can stand on its own with no validation. But The Ummah has been under stress from The West for a long time, making Muslims weak and in need of self-validation sometimes. And this is a world in which everything Powerful and everything deemed as modern and good is driven by white people. Where is the best science, medicine, technology, popular culture like movies, music, fashion, trends, etc. coming from? It is from Whiteness due to a white supremacist global hegemony that has persisted since white colonialism in and on top of nations of people of color, including in Muslim lands. That is why we are trophy converts. When we are taken as trophy converts, our mere presence confirms White Supremacy by legitimizing Islam with White Approval for native Muslims, especially during times when Islam is under suspicion or attack.

2. We bring all of the previous benefits of whiteness that we have accumulated before Islam with us on our journey as Muslims. This point here is paramount to how we still benefit from white privilege though we may be very cut off from mainstream white societies. Even if we grew up dirt poor, ate free lunch at school, dad was in prison, mom was an alcoholic, dropped out of high school, dealt drugs…whatever our back story is…whiteness benefits us whites beyond class because of the White Supremacist system. Because of white privilege, we have doors opened for us that might never open for people of color who share our economic class. If we are upper middle class or elite, those cumulative benefits do not disappear when we become Muslim because they made us who we are today. That is part of what having white privilege means. It is what the Knap Sack is about…the fact that our World as We Know It was designed by and for white people, even poor ones. And those designed benefits are a boost propping us up even when we enter the Other category as Muslims. Even as we face prejudice as Muslims from broader non-Muslim and white society, a big sack of white privilege follows us into the Muslim community when we take our Shahadahs. While we face the social downsides of being white converts, of which there are many, we are still boosted by white privilege in other ways.

3. The way individual white Western Muslims interact with The Exotic Other Muslim majority cultures (South Asian, Arab, African, South East Asian, whatever the Other may be) often reeks of white privilege. Sometimes it is so bad, it seems like we are colonial madams and sirs on some safari. White Muslims are frequently in spaces where we are exposed to ‘foreign’ and ‘exotic’ cultures. Our white privilege permeates the way we interact with native Muslims. We get to know these cultures, analyze them, marry into them, pick up cultural habits from our native co-religionists. Still, we so often don’t fully respect these cultures. We refuse to accept that Other people naturally differ from us simply because they are different. We feel that they differ from us because they and their ways are inferior. Often in narratives of the frustrations of dealing with “natives,” be they Sisters at the mosque, in-laws, or other community members, we whites cannot accept that people do things differently from us. The way They raise children is inferior to Our Way. They way They treat punctuality is inferior. They don’t value literacy as much as us. The Other women are manipulative. The Other men tell lies. They are disorganized. They lack critical thinking skills. Whites subconsciously bring in attitudes that White is Right and that Our Way is the Right Way. We have a very hard time accepting that people from other countries and cultures function just fine with the way They do things, different from Us as They may be. We overlook that there may be other factors at work in a situation than manipulation and lies. We are always so ready to criticize the Other. What we don’t see in our criticisms is that we position Their Way against Our (White) Way. With the White Way being the dominant Way in the global scheme of things, we perpetuate white supremacy. Our way of raising children (which is supported by Our globally dominant books and Our websites and Our family ways) is better than Theirs. Here is a thought: Our way works for Us, it is better for Us and Their Way works for Them. Let it be. And it is natural that if we are white and live in the spaces of communities of color, we will have people of color criticize our ways (say of something we do with our children…like I have been chastised by neighbors or in-laws for encouraging my toddler to feed herself when They hand feed children the same age as my toddler. I know very well that these personal criticisms sting!). But it is okay for us to keep our culture without putting down the culture of the Other. Isn’t that what true tolerance is about? It is important to resist getting stuck in the rut of constantly criticizing the Other because our white culture is dominant and privileged above their non-white cultures. In the end, we have the upper hand in that game because in the big picture White is Right.

4. We whites have tendencies to blame all of people’s faults on their culture and race, not on individuals, despite the fact that we claim to be colorblind and to see everyone as unique individuals. It is more like this: We see Ourselves and other whites as unique individuals, but we see native Muslims as part of Their cultures and blame any contentions we have with them on cultural deficits. This is a very deep issue with white privilege. It is something I struggle with myself as I live among people of color surrounded by people of several foreign cultures. But I have seen white Muslims descend into very racist thinking when coming into cultural conflict, even referring to all of the women in their husband of color’s culture as “manipulative [Edited Out]es” and so forth. If that isn’t racist, then I don’t know what is.

5. We are still white and we still have white privilege after our Shahadah. This should be obvious, but many white Muslims seem to be delusional about this. Despite the fact that we become Other and separate from our mainstream white Western society, and that we can face severe discrimination, even threat of physical attack for being Muslims. We are STILL white. Even though when we wear hijab people do not “read us” as white, and mistake us for people of color. Strangers do treat us as people of color. Meaning non-Muslim strangers sometimes treat us badly. But with people who know us, being white is still a major factor in our interactions with others, just as it is for all whites, because of white privilege. As I say above, this impacts the way we interact with non-white native Muslims and converts of color. So we may become pariahs in larger white society. But we have our white speshul status among Muslims. It doesn’t matter if people of color say to you “You don’t act white,” “I never think of you as white,” “You are an honorary Arab,” “You are practically a Pakistani,” “You sound just like a Nigerian,” or whatever. We are still white.

6. White Muslims are just as bad as non-Muslim whites in both denying that we are white and down playing white privilege. We use the same tactics. All of my friends, my husband, and my children are people of color. I am Irish/Jewish/Italian so I faced prejudice before Islam, so I have less white privilege. I grew up poor in America so I am not really white. (This one is really bad because it aligns American people of color with poverty, and you can just guess which people the white Americans who say this have in mind when they create this alignment) There is no such thing as “white,” I hate labels, I don’t see race. It is The Muslims who make the Muslim community so racist. Immigrant Muslims are so racist, We are colorblind, and They are the racists. We basically fall back on the same lame excuses and deflections of white privilege that mainstream non-Muslim whites do when these discussions arise. Word for word.

7. Yes, I know a lot of native Muslims, either in Muslim countries or immigrant Muslims, are very openly racist. They are not politically correct. Whatever group it is, they think they are better than other groups and they often make comments about other groups as if their opinions were fact. They are shocked and think you are crazy if you point out their racism because they view their racist opinions as fact. “But such and such group IS miserly!” “But they really ARE dirty!” and so forth. Their home countries did not have a civil rights movement or a political correctness movement that altered the way that people talked publically about race, and it shows very often in the comments they make. In the American context, they also tend to filter, concentrate and repeat racist ideas that are part of American racism, such as dislike and fear of black Americans, thinking of Latinos as low class, etc. (and non-Americans get these stereotypes of Americans of color from the globally dominant American pop-culture) This is terrible, too, and very worth addressing. We as white Muslims enter these communities and become privy to these kinds of racist discussions. Well, it leads back to basic anti-racist principles: People of color do say racist things and are indeed prejudiced. But systematic, institutional, power bearing structured racism is White like Us. Though the native Muslim racism does have implications in immigrant mosques, and abroad very deeply in Muslim majority countries, the most powerful face of racism is still white. So it is simply more dangerous for whites to be racist. Not to mention that whatever racist hierarchies persist in the Muslim countries, or within immigrant communities whites are still on the top of the heap. When whites are in these spaces of people of color and hear the open racism spewed about, while in polite white Western society racism is very present but not so direct, whites tend to feel smug and superior to these Muslims because whites think “We are not the racists, They are so very racist.” I will reiterate that our communities in the Ummah have a lot of work to do on racism in general. But white Westerners are not better than them just because we generally use more politically correct language. And any white readers know that in the privacy of white spaces, anti-Jewish, anti-black, anti-Chinese, etc. racist stuff has been said overtly in front of us before at some point in our lives, too. So maybe whites are politically correct in polite company more than some immigrant Muslims of color, but privately white people can often sound the same as if there were no such thing as political correctness invented as a concept. Another observation is that I have seen white Muslim converts intermarried with men of color who pick up an repeat some of the same prejudices that they get from their adopted communities. Where I live there is a hierarchy in which Arabs are above South Asians, and some white women married to Arabs feel superior to white women married to South Asians, for example. Or a white woman married to a Lebanese starts to dislike Egyptians because she hears Lebanese people talking [Edited Out] about Egyptians. I have seen this. This is really sad because it means that despite being raised to be politically correct in polite society, we seem to pick up these racist habits without even recognizing it.

8. We can fall back on being white in times when being a visible Muslim is a threat. We can take off our hijabs and just go back to being white. I know a lot of Sisters who do this when they go home from a Muslim country to visit their families. It is too much of a struggle to face the world being “read” as a person of color, so we take the easy way out and remove our hijabs in our home countries. Now, a person of color can remove her hijab, too and she won’t be hated as a visible practicing Muslim anymore. But she will still face all of the other discrimination that is directed at whatever community of color to which she belongs. When we whites take off our hijabs, we blend right back into whiteness and get our knap sacks back on fully loaded as if their weight had never been slightly lessened by being a visible Muslim. That is a huge privilege. And I KNOW that most of us would not do that because of what hijab means to us and our faith…but since it theoretically could happen, the whole issue is laced with white privilege. That is irksome to Muslims of color who are conscious of issues of white privilege.

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(bismillah)

sister bint al hoda you have been very accomodating to me thank you :)

again i ask how can I possibly discuss every odious,shameful hypocritical,racist,lying,attention seeking,superior complex action without calling it that.

If I do it may seem as evil being noised abroad. So what will happen? it is likely I will be rebuked as you have done.

(bismillah)

(1) Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, except where injustice hath been done; for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things.

( ÓæÑÉ ÇáäÓÇÁ , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #148)

shia should be familiar with this concept since shia take the bold step of disasociation,and further lanat.

Now let me be very clear when I say that the bold step of disassociation means 'shia' have raised iman to high level perhaps the highest then made yourselves the lowest of creatures by aligning yourselves with people and concepts that are not deserved of the title you gave yourselves. i.e shia.

You have understood me perfectly and I am throwing back the chance to 'redeem myself' I have no need to explain myself since I have said nothing wrong.

I have been very clear in everything.

I will not de humanize myself to belong to shia chat, I am worth more than that. I came and I saw for myself what Allah permits me to see,and I have understood wht Allah has permitted me to understand.

what i have seen is grimey and odious

to the very silly people who practise group hostility are at loss for my removal (I am requesting at present) from them it is not the other way around go play with your tiny tears dolls. your mentality is abhorrant. :D

"The first opinion of the person of intellect is the last opinion of an ignorant person."

peace

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^ Iman has unreigstered so there is no point in replying to her posts on here.

I do feel bad that she left on bad terms. Although I think there was some miscommunication going on, I think it is regrettable that she did leave with such an unhappy perspective and it might have been worthwhile to try to understand what she was saying and why she was saying it (on issues other than Shi'ism) and discuss the things that we disagree with compassionately rather than getting into arguments. Just because one person is upset does not mean the other needs to react that way.

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^ Iman has unreigstered so there is no point in replying to her posts on here.

I do feel bad that she left on bad terms. Although I think there was some miscommunication going on, I think it is regrettable that she did leave with such an unhappy perspective and it might have been worthwhile to try to understand what she was saying and why she was saying it (on issues other than Shi'ism) and discuss the things that we disagree with compassionately rather than getting into arguments. Just because one person is upset does not mean the other needs to react that way.

(bismillah)(salam)

Yes, so much oppression from both sides.

(wasalam)

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this is ridiculous i cannot believe that people are asking to get unregistered over a single thread and because of some posts against a particular race or in favor of them. I think they haven't been to youtube comment section or even been to websites where things get real rough.


(bismillah) (salam)

Brother what are we animals? She is a girl and everyone knows girls are more emtional. (no offence to anyone) She deserves to have a meaningful discussion with her fellow members and not get thrown in a mud slinging match. It is a shame to see members disrespect others beacause of their views on a particular subject and that includes myself.I hope she wasn't too hurt by the crackheads opposite.

(wasalam)


are we not supposed to be on the same side/


(bismilah) (salam)

If you knew who i am, then you would have understood the statement.

(wasalam)
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this is ridiculous i cannot believe that people are asking to get unregistered over a single thread and because of some posts against a particular race or in favor of them. I think they haven't been to youtube comment section or even been to websites where things get real rough.


YourFuture........ I don't know how to say this nicely, but that is a very immature statement. I will just leave it at that.
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islam itself does not deny the existence of races or ethnicities (after all, the verse says 'we divided you into tribes') but teaches us the right philosophy to have about those real divisions. it is not possible to make racial or cultural conflicts disappear just by saying that race is not important.

(salam)

This is how it should be but obviously it is not. Of course people have different colours different looks however it is exactly these differences that has created so much problems in the world. Race is not just important it is also unavoidable. But this does not mean to give superiority of one race over another. Here is a quote from wikipedia on white people.

The term "white race" or "white people" entered dictionaries of the major European languages in the later 1600s, originating with the racialization of slavery at the time, in the context of the Atlantic slave trade. The term white came into wide use in the British colonies in America from the 1680s.

No one has problem with "white people" but it is the "white" bit that has created so much fitna. Of course this has nothing do with the white people in today's world and I don't see why anyone would get offended from this sort of discussions. If you read British/American history books you will see how they have drawn races of the world. I don't need to give their descriptions but anyone seeking knowledge would know how they were painted. Once upon a time, Russia was a superpower but they never claimed that they were "white race", and even today they are know as just "Russians". But I guess they couldn't reach South Asia or Africa for this sort of racial claim to have taken any effect for them. I was reading something on the internet where a person described themselves as "British Indian" and everyone was criticising them that there is no such thing as British Indian, it is either British or indian. But apparently for a native british "British" is not enough until it has "white" attached to it. Marble in his earlier post said that to say "white" is a "statement of fact". Now this statement of fact, apparently, does apply for other races in the same context. For example, no one here in the UK would call an Indian "brown" but rather they usually refer to them as Indian or by some racist names. And I wonder if Marble would consider these names as "statement of fact" as well. You are right that western people are more previlaged than other people but this has nothing to do with their race. People are dying on daily basis, getting killed, turtured, rubbed, invaded, etc for no reason. Why? If it is not from these superiorities then what is it from? Yes power and greed are two factors but everything has an origin. Isn't The US going around dictating to people that how much they are wrong and how righteous and rightful they themselves are? So this based on what? They ridicule Muslims for "arranged marriages" "wife beating" etc etc etc. Why should it even be their business? Sorry I am not referring to anyone here.

^ Iman has unreigstered so there is no point in replying to her posts on here.

I do feel bad that she left on bad terms. Although I think there was some miscommunication going on, I think it is regrettable that she did leave with such an unhappy perspective and it might have been worthwhile to try to understand what she was saying and why she was saying it (on issues other than Shi'ism) and discuss the things that we disagree with compassionately rather than getting into arguments. Just because one person is upset does not mean the other needs to react that way.

Yes, definately a lot of miscommunication! and it is not just sad that someone leaves their "community" but it also shows how much people have respect for one another. She was basically, I think, referring to those things above. but unfortunately, to an average western person, it seems offensive, somehow. anyway, hope she comes back to share her thoughts with us cause, without any doubt, she is one of the most knowledgeable people here.

I have honestly been feeling really bad that so much racist comments have been posted here. and I myself was rude in some of my replies and I do apologize, specially to sister maryaam. but I was aiming at something which seemed targeted something else. Salaam.

Edited by Ghorbat
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Regarding racism: Anybody can be racist, white, black or yellow. What an ugly topic, Islam has nothing to do with racism, why are getting caught up in this stuff?

Back to the topic at hand: We can't judge until we come to know of the entire facts, I don't like the fact that this Muslim went and joined (the worst) kuffar army on earth, but

from what I read the majority of those killed were medical staff and not actual soldiers, further, when you live in a country, the law of the land is wajib for you to follow, killing

soldiers of the land is a form of betrayal and deceit (as evil as the kuffar army is!)

WaSalaam.

Hassan.

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Oh, don't worry, I'm not. I can't speak for Maryaam's experience, but if anything I've found a lot Muslims tend to be overly adoring of the white folks who convert.

That's my experience. I felt like a sort of minor celebrity when I was first starting to get around in Philadelphia Shi'a circles. "Wow, a white American convert to Shi'ism? Awesome!" Probably helped that I was hanging out with probably the most famous black Shi'a family on the East Coast too. Seemed like everyone knows them.

I'm a little late on this, but honestly... I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that Brent is white.

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