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In the Name of God بسم الله

Chosing wrong marja send you to hell?

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I have been thinking about this for a long time. Since i'm off my punishment i'd think i'd ask you people because some of you have immense knowledge in this stuff. So here it goes, does chosing the wrong marja for taqleed send you to hell? Because some people are on completly different spectrums on various rulings. (E.g. Shirazis and Fadhallah) may Allah be pleased with them both. Because i have heard the 73 sects etc. and i thought that it might include these things. So what do you guys think? Thanks for your answers.

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Brother, these people are liars and monafiqs.

Brother, sunnis might be unaware of certain aspect of history, but this shouldnt mean that we call them munafiqs and liars. Instead, we should have a dialogue with them, and use their own sources of hadith to prove our point.

Edited by shiasoldier786
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AliAl, please take a moment and remember what Hell is. It is something serious and is for those who destroy their own souls through evils and crimes perpetrated on themselves and on others. Following a 'leader who leads to Hell' means following someone who invites you to kill others, steal, destroy people's lives, etc.

None of our marja's are inviting people to do these things. On the contrary, they encourage people to pray, fast, give charity, do good deeds, avoid sins, etc.

Asking a question like this is making a joke out of the Hellfire and the seriousness of the punishment in the next life. If you think that various practicing Muslims, might go to Hell simply on the basis of minor variatons in fiqh or beliefs or ideas, what of all the evil people in the world, the murderers, the rapists, the torturers, etc?

None of us owns Heaven or Hell to have the right to even make a judgment like this.

No one human being deserves to go to Heaven except by Allah's mercy.... so how can you even suggest that the followers of marja X are destined for heaven and the followers of marja Y are destined for Hell.

Out of respect for Allah, our Creator, and what we will soon experience ourselves in the next life, do not make light of His promises for the next world.

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AliAl, please take a moment and remember what Hell is. It is something serious and is for those who destroy their own souls through evils and crimes perpetrated on themselves and on others. Following a 'leader who leads to Hell' means following someone who invites you to kill others, steal, destroy people's lives, etc.

None of our marja's are inviting people to do these things. On the contrary, they encourage people to pray, fast, give charity, do good deeds, avoid sins, etc.

Asking a question like this is making a joke out of the Hellfire and the seriousness of the punishment in the next life. If you think that various practicing Muslims, might go to Hell simply on the basis of minor variatons in fiqh or beliefs or ideas, what of all the evil people in the world, the murderers, the rapists, the torturers, etc?

None of us owns Heaven or Hell to have the right to even make a judgment like this.

No one human being deserves to go to Heaven except by Allah's mercy.... so how can you even suggest that the followers of marja X are destined for heaven and the followers of marja Y are destined for Hell.

Out of respect for Allah, our Creator, and what we will soon experience ourselves in the next life, do not make light of His promises for the next world.

Sister, i am not joking. Hellfire is serious, that's why i asked the question. If you think this is a joke, answer these questions.

What if tawassul is really shirk? Who will be responsible for this crime?

What if beleiving ahlulbayt (as) control the universe turns out to be shirk? Who is responsible?

What if tatbir is haram?

What if wilayah takwiniyah is haram?

With many other questions. These all have to do with the marja we choose, and if you think shirk won't get you into hell, then you have to recheck the quran. I told you before and ill tell you now, i am not a fitna monger. I just want straight up answers.

Seriously i take no offense in what shiasoldier786 did there (putting (as) after abu bakr in a sense) but still admit that you are a sunni openly first.

shiasoldier786? or me?

You choose a marja wisely and then any mistakes they make in rulings is their burden, not yours.

Alial324124124 you have far too much hatred. Have a cup of water.

Hatred for who? People come up with the craziest things.

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What i meant sister was that if i chose a wrong marja, will that effect my position in the akhira?

(salam)

What do you mean by choosing a wrong marja? I don't understand :unsure:

Shia scholars are not a dime a dozen. There is a very strict system in place where only very knowledgeable people become Marja-eTaqlid. And these people will not be giving you irresponsible rulings. In fact, they will be teaching you about Islam so you don't go close to things which are haram.

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(salam)

What do you mean by choosing a wrong marja? I don't understand :unsure:

Shia scholars are not a dime a dozen. There is a very strict system in place where only very knowledgeable people become Marja-eTaqlid. And these people will not be giving you irresponsible rulings. In fact, they will be teaching you about Islam so you don't go close to things which are haram.

Just say Shirazi (ra) rulings were right, and fadhallahs (ra) rulings were wrong. Since the vast differences in their rulings, will the muqalids of fadhallah (ra) go to hell?

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What if beleiving ahlulbayt (as) control the universe turns out to be shirk? Who is responsible?

I dont know about the rest, but this statement is very dangerous brother. I love the ahlul bayt and all, but lets not do what the Christians did after the death of Christ. Only Allah (swt) is the All-Powerful, and Imam Ali (as) himself has said he is just a "slave" of Allah.

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Just say Shirazi (ra) rulings were right, and fadhallahs (ra) rulings were wrong. Since the vast differences in their rulings, will the muqalids of fadhallah (ra) go to hell?

(salam)

Do you even know why people go to hell? :unsure:

I suggest you read a book called the major and the minor sins. Start with reading this book. At least you need to start with reading up on what sins are.

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Asking for help from, or Du'a to other than Allah is Shirk. However when we ask the Ma'soomeen for help we are doing so according to the teaching of Allah Himself {O ye who believe! do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him . . . 5:35.} and the teaching of Rasulollah (S), and in the process we are not them on par with Allah Almighty, nor are we associating with them any independent absolute power. [This was mentioned in the previous email]. They have been AUTHORISED with power and authority to help the Mu'minin.

When we make Du'a to them it is still on the same basis. Or we make to Du'a to Allah that by the virtue, station of the Ma'soom, and by the Ma'soom's nearness to You O' Allah help us.

So the ultimate and absolute power and authority goes to Allah and Allah only; except when He Exalted be He relegates some of that power and authority to those He loves because of their station.

For example Allah is creator of all existence, and there is no one else who is able to do so. And any one who says there is another creator besides Allah Almighty is committing Shirk. However we have it in the Qur'an that Allah Almighty empowered Jesus to create bird from mud {just as Allah created us from mud!!!} and also Allah Almighty empowered Jesus peace be upon him to raise the dead. And he did all of these with the permission of Allah, and not of his own power.[/quote]

http://www.shirazi.org.uk/shirk.html

They have been authorised by Allah to do this, but personally i don't believe in it.

Edited by alial1234
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(salam)

Do you even know why people go to hell? :unsure:

I suggest you read a book called the major and the minor sins. Start with reading this book. At least you need to start with reading up on what sins are.

Read all of it sister. To clarify, we know for certain that bakris are going to hell no matter how much they pray, fast, etc. Why is that? It is because they are following the wrong teachings of the prophet (pbuh). Will the same be for a shia doing taqleed, or are we secured because we are mowalis?

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As you quoted bro Alial124355687:

"They have been AUTHORISED with power and authority to help the Mu'minin." This simply means that Allah (swt) has, out of his mercy, given the Ahlul Bayt hidden ilm, which can be used by them to help the momineens, this with the knowledge and approval of Allah (swt) and I adhere to this belief. BUT- This is very different to power of the universe being "delegated".

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going to hell no matter how much they pray, fast, etc. Why is that? It is because they are following the wrong teachings of the prophet (pbuh). Will the same be for a shia doing taqleed, or are we secured because we are mowalis?

(salam)

Well..there are people who claim to be Shias who are going to end up in hell. Saying that you follow someone is not the ticket to paradise/hell. You will need to live up to the pristine teaching of Islam.

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They do not control every atom of the universe by their own power, but by the power AUTHORISED by the almighty creator (swt). They can't even walk without his permission.

(salam)

Well..there are people who claim to be Shias who are going to end up in hell. Saying that you follow someone is not the ticket to paradise/hell. You will need to live up to the pristine teaching of Islam.

How do we know the pristine teaching of islam? By our marjas. But what if they were wrong? Who is responsible for the sins commited by their rulings? The follower or the marja themself?

Edited by alial1234
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Whos the guy on the video? Is he even a marja?

Only Allah is Kun fa yaqun!

He is al shaheed muhammed ridha al shirazi (ra), he is not a marja but this is standard shirazi belief that ahlul bayt control the universe. Allah is the on Kun fa yaqun, but he authorised the power to ahlul bayt.

Edited by alial1234
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(bismillah)

Here are may comments:

The question posted in this thread is a genuine question that should be answered.

This thread is under observation. Any attempt to disrespect any Marja,dead or alive, would not be tolerated. :shaytan:

you shouldnt say that bro... alot of our sunni brothers respect them, and they were the student of Imam Jaafer Sadiq (as).

True that Abu Hanifa was a student of Imam Jafar as-Sadoq (as) but he did not follow his instructions. He gave fatwas based on his QIYAS which is against the teachings of Ahlul Bait (A). So it would not be fit to put (ra) in front of someone who mislead Muslim. Having said that note that we dont want to abuse him. So you may simply write imam Abu Hanifa or imam Malik without (ra).

Sister, i am not joking. Hellfire is serious, that's why i asked the question. If you think this is a joke, answer these questions.

What if tawassul is really shirk? Who will be responsible for this crime?

What if beleiving ahlulbayt (as) control the universe turns out to be shirk? Who is responsible?

What if tatbir is haram?

What if wilayah takwiniyah is haram?

With many other questions. These all have to do with the marja we choose, and if you think shirk won't get you into hell, then you have to recheck the quran. I told you before and ill tell you now, i am not a fitna monger. I just want straight up answers.

Many of the issues you have raised are beyond the limits of Taqlid or choosing your Marja. Taqlid is limited to Furo e Deen while some of these issues are your BELIEFS in which you have to do your own research which includes reading the views of different scholars (not just your Marja). You cannot just do Taqlid in Usool e Din.

Now regarding your main question:

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Since i'm off my punishment i'd think i'd ask you people because some of you have immense knowledge in this stuff. So here it goes, does chosing the wrong marja for taqleed send you to hell? Because some people are on completly different spectrums on various rulings. (E.g. Shirazis and Fadhallah) may Allah be pleased with them both. Because i have heard the 73 sects etc. and i thought that it might include these things. So what do you guys think? Thanks for your answers.

First you have to choose your Marja correctly. The method of finding a Marja or identifying the most learned scholar is given in books of Islamic Laws (Tozih al-Masail). If you have follwed the method correctly, your Taqlid would be correct. And as per scholars, if a qualified Marja does all efforts humanly possible for finding the command of Allah.... and he still makes a mistake both he and his followers will not be punished.

WS

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(salam)

one should check thoroughly the intelligence of a man before even considering him truthful enough to consider listening to, intelligence is guidance from Allah, many scholars are perverse, and many men are wrong, mistaken, and misguided. this is why we must check carefuly into every matter. because whom we listen to is whom we are taking as leader towards truth a head of us, a leader towards the fire will lead you to the fire and a leader towards paradise will lead you to paradise. Many are the scholars who have come making the unlawful lawful and making lawful the unlawful. one must be cautious and investigate deeply before following any scholar.

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

Just say Shirazi (ra) rulings were right, and fadhallahs (ra) rulings were wrong. Since the vast differences in their rulings, will the muqalids of fadhallah (ra) go to hell?

Good question. But first you have know why there is difference of opinion among scholars.

Note we are talking about FIQHI matters- Faru e Din and not BELIEFS or Usool e Din.

-----

Why are there differences among the mujtahids in their legal opinions? Many people wonder why it is that the mujtahids differ in their religious opinions, or fatwas, when the bases of their ijtihad are the same. Firstly, it should be said that any differences in the fatwas is hardly ever such as to be contradictory; it is almost impossible to find a case of one mujtahid saying some action is wajib and another saying it is haram.

Take, for instance, the case of salatu 'l-jum`ah, the Friday prayer. All the Shi'ah `ulama' are of the opinion that in the time of the presence of the Imam this salat is obligatory on Fridays, because it is the Imam, or his representative, who has the right to call the people to Friday prayer; but they differ as to what is the correct course of action when the Imam is in Occultation. This difference of opinion does not, however, create any practical problem for the community. The late Ayatullah as-Sayyid Muhsin al-Hakim (d. 1970) was one of the opinion that salatu 'l-jum`ah is not obligatory during the Occultation of the Imam, but it does not matter if someone performs it supposing that it is expected (of him), provided that he also prays the noon prayer (salatu 'z-zuhr). Ayatullah as-Sayyid Abu 'l-Qasim al-Khu'i says that "one can choose between performing salatu 'z-zuhr or salatu 'l-jum`ah, but once the latter is established with all its conditions (fulfilled), it is precautionarily obligatory to participate in it." Ayatullah as-Sayyid Ruhullah al-Khumayni says that "one can choose between performing salatu 'z-zuhr or salatu 'l-jum`ah, but if one chooses the latter it is advisable (mustahab) to precautionarily perform salatu 'z-zuhr also."7 Although there are these differences in the opinions of these mujtahids, there is no clash that would, for example, prevent the follower (muqallid) of one of them participating in salatu 'l-jum`ah if it were established.

Secondly, it should be observed that the existence of differences in scientific opinions is not to be taken as a sign of a substantial defect in the quest for knowledge and a reason for abandoning it altogether; it is, rather, a sign that knowledge moves in progressive steps towards perfection. Differences of opinions are to be found in all sciences, not just in fiqh. There may, for example, be more than one opinion about the therapy for a particular patient's disease, and all of these opinions may be superseded later on by the development of new methods of dealing with that disease. Thus these observations can be seen to be relevant not only to differences between the opinions of contemporary scientists but also to historical differences, and all these differences should be regarded as signs of the dynamism within a science and stages to be passed in its route to perfection.

It should be remembered that the mujtahid formulates his opinions after pushing his research and study as far as he can; that is all that is expected of him, for he is neither inerrant nor an `alim bi 'l-ghayb (knower of the unseen). The muqallid is enjoined to follow his opinions. So, even if the mujtahid's fatwa is not actually in agreement with Allah's real command, neither he will be punished on the Day of Judgement for having issued the fatwa, nor will his muqallid for having acted according to it, for both will have done what was commanded of them and what was humanly possible for them to do.

(Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi in his book Taqlid: Meaning and Reality)

----------

Furthermore,

A few months back I had done some reading and found 14 reasons why fatwas differ:

DIFFERENCE OF FATWAS AMONG SCHOLARS

It should be said that most fatwa differences are due to differences in Hadith. But any such differences is hardly ever such as to be contradictory. It is almost impossible to find a case of one Mujtahid saying some action is Wajib and another saying it is Haram.

Let us ponder briefly over the reasons behind fatwa differences.

1- Conflicting Hadith due to different conditions of the questioner.

Imam gave different orders to two different companions.

Example:

He told one follower that the meat of a rabbit can be eaten since he lived in an area where not eating rabbit was considered a sign of being Shia and his life could be in danger.

He told the other follower that the meat of rabbit cannot be eaten, since he lived among Shia.

If these commands were given at different times and in front of different set of people naturally they would convey them differently to others. If today these hadith are read by someone he will get confused. Scholars have to dig in to the conditions under which a command was give and understand which to apply today.

-----

2- Difference in understanding the reason behind a command.

Example:

Prophet (SAW) was sitting. The funeral of a kafir passed bye. Prophet (SAWW) stood up.

-Some rawayat tell us that Prophet stood up due to the respect of angels accompanying the coffin. So following these rawayat it would be even better to to stand when the funeral of a Momin passes bye.

-Other rawayat tell us that Prophet stood up since it was disrespectful for the coffin of a kaffir to pass above the head of Muslims.

Naturally this reason will reflect in a totally different way of practice.

-----

3- Words have different meanings.

The command was given with one meaning but it was understood with another meaning.

Example:

Hazrat Salman e Farsi said to the Prophet (pbuh) that he has read in Torah that "Waduh" after meals is a cause for blessing. Prophet replied that Waduh before and after meals is a cause for blessing.

Here the word "Waduh" is meant as washing hands. But some have taken it in the literal sense.

-----

4- Difference in understanding the meaning of a hadith.

Same way as verses of poetry may have different meaning.

There is a verse in urdu:

Ïã 黄 äÀ ŠªÑÿ Ïá ãیä äÀ Çä˜ªæŸ ãیä Çی˜ á

ÇÊäÿ Óÿ ÞÏ À Êã Ȫی ÞیÇãÊ ÔÑیÑ ªæ

Translation:

"for second you did not stay in the heart, nor in my eyes

Such an small size and you are so naughty!"

Some say poet is talking about an imaginary lover (a short girl)!

While others say its about the tear. When one's heart is full, tears come out but don't stay in the eyes for long and start flowing.

Similarly some Fuqha take one meaning of a hadith while others take another.

Example:

Masoom said: "Jummah does not establish if there is no Imam"

Some said Imam here means Imam e Masoom . Therefore it is haram to offer Jummah prayers during occultation.

Others said Imam here means Imam e Jammat (the prayer leader). Meaning that Imam (as) wanted to say that Jummah prayers cannot be offered individually, it has to be offered with congregation (jammat).

Example:

Prophet (SAWW) said: "Love of Ali eats away sins like fire eats away dry wood".

The literal meaning is that if a lover of Imam Ali commits sin, love of Ali (as) would finish the sin.

But some have taken the meaning that if the love of Ali fills someones heart than a Momin will not commit sin. All his sins would finish. He would not even think of sinning.

Example:

Hadith: "Paradise is under Mother's feet",

Some say hadith is directed towards children. If they take good care of their mother, make her happy, their rewarded would be paradise.

Other say its for the mother. If she trains them well, she could make them among the people of paradise.

-----

5-Hadith going against each other.

Example:

In Furu al-Kafi there is a hadith from Zarar ibn Ain according to which Imam Baqar (as) said: "Without doubt, Jummah bath is wajib".

Another hadith from Masoom says: If someone is unable to perform Jummah bath, the Jummah bath will remain due on him. He could postpone it till Saturday.

And another hadith: If you dont have water for Jummah baith, bring it after buying (purchase it).

All these hadith give the impression that Jummah Ghusl (bath) is obligatory.

But also in Furu al-Kafi there is a hadith again from Zarar ibn Ain according to which Masoom (as) listed Sunnat baths. And Jummah bath is included in that list.

So as you can see according to one hadith from the same Sahabi, ghusal of Jummah is wajib and according to another its sunnat.

Yet another hadith from Shaikh Sadooq (aleh rehama) in Khasal it was asked Maula what is the difference b/w the prayers of men and women. Imam (as) listed many differences. One of them was that for men Ghusl e Jummah is mustahab.

-----

6-Hadith quoted in terms of meaning and not exact words.

Some hadith were quoted in terms of meaning and not their exact words. Since different people understood hadith differently they stated it differently.

-----

7- Many references could result in differences.

It is a common observation that if one message is conveyed through several messengers their could occur differences in the conveyed message.

-----

8-Mistakes in hadith due to human errors or forgetfulness.

Narrators of hadith were human beings.

-----

9-Loss of Hadith books.

We currently have 4 large books of hadith, namely:

- Asool al-Kafi,

- Tahzeeb al-Ahkam anal Masail al-Halal wal Haram,

- Istabsar fi mukhtalf min al akhbar

- Kitab al Faqih lemin la yahjar al faqih

During the time of Shaikh Sadooq (AR) there was a 5th book "Madinat al-Ilm" comprising of 12 volumes. And was considered the largest book on Ilm al Hadith. This book is no longer available.

Naturally scholars who had this book in front of them gave fatwas. But scholars toady don't have this book resulting in difference of fatwas.

Similarly Imam as-Sadiq (as) had ordered the writing of 400 books on Principals. Not all of them are available with us today. Therefore scholars who got those hadith have different fatwas than those who don't.

-----

10-Non-reliable narrators.

Hadith are graded according to the reliability of narrators. Scholars accept or reject hadith based on their grading and may differ in which hadith to accept and which not. This is a detailed subject and I will not go into details at this point.

-----

11-Fabricated hadith.

People used to fabricate hadith due to their post, belief or affiliation. Others did it to please the Ruler or King of their time.

Example:

One person Abdul Karim ibn Abi al Aujah was hanged during the time of Khalifa Mehdi. While being hanged he confessed to fabricating 4000 hadith where he had made halal things haram and haram things halal!

-----

12-Change in the description of things.

Example:

Regarding salat there is a hukam that if someone has blood on his body or clothes and if it is less than a dirham its ok to pray with the blood.

But there is difference in the description of the size of dirham.

-Dirham is the size of the cave in palm.

-Dirham is the size of the digit of thumb.

-Dirham is the size of first digt of middle finger.

-Dirham is the size of first digit of index finger.

-----

13- Some hadith were said due to Taqayah.

Some say a particular hadith was said during Taqayah while others say it was not.

-----

14-Hadith with different background.

These rawayat are present in front of the Mujtahid but he has no information on the background.

----------------------------------------

WS

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Sister, i am not joking. Hellfire is serious, that's why i asked the question. If you think this is a joke, answer these questions.

What if tawassul is really shirk? Who will be responsible for this crime?

What if beleiving ahlulbayt (as) control the universe turns out to be shirk? Who is responsible?

What if tatbir is haram?

What if wilayah takwiniyah is haram?

With many other questions. These all have to do with the marja we choose, and if you think shirk won't get you into hell, then you have to recheck the quran. I told you before and ill tell you now, i am not a fitna monger. I just want straight up answers.

Allah is merciful. He is not going to put everyone in Hell. Hell is for the people who destroy their souls. He has promised to forgive many things, apart from those things which we do to others that they will not forgive.

There will be thieves in Heaven, street women in Heaven, and all those whom God in His infinite knowledge, mercy, and wisdom chose to forgive. Among Muslims, there will be Muslims who did not practice at all because He saw redeeming qualities in them. Of course, Heaven is not limited to Muslims either and there will be people of all backgrounds.

Of course, I am not saying that one should not pray or fast..... but just that God's forgiveness is beyond our small deeds.

Conversely, we cannot guarantee that our pitiful actions will save us from the Fire. Have you heard the story about Allamah al-Majlisi (may God reward him)? Of course there is no way of knowing whether it is true but it is instructional. It is said that after he passed away, someone saw him in a dream and asked him how he got to Heaven. He said that it wasn't because of his great books and scholarship, it was because he one day saw a kitten freezing on the side of the road and took care of it (or something like that, someone can correct me).

We don't know what will raise us in the eyes of God. Definitely, obedience to God, the desire to please God, and avoiding sins will help.

In comparison, these are really minor issues. Do you think that if someone is sincerely trying to be good and follow God, and makes a mistake, God will punish them for having one minor wrong belief? A hadith from the Imams said that we will be rewarded for following hadith that we think are right, even if they turn out to be false. (I mean unless they are in complete contradiction with our conscience, for instance if someone told us to steal)

Christians are much more involved in shirk than us, but do you think God will punish all the sincere Christians who, innocently and accidentally, raised Jesus above his status? Even though they lived pure lives, worshipped, were kind to people, gave charity, built churches, etc.

In the end, it is between us and God what is 'shirk'. My words are only a clue to my beliefs. Only God knows whether I commit shirk when I am doing tawassul, or thinking about wilayah takwiniyyah, or anything else. We can also honestly examine our own hearts and ask, are we committing shirk? We don't need a 'laundry list' or a 'grocery list' of 'these beliefs are or are not shirk.' One person can do tawassul and not commit shirk. Another person can do tawassul and commit shirk. However, this is independent of the marja' they follow.

And He will examine our hearts on that Day and make His own decision.

If you are concerned you have a belief that is shirk, it is your responsibility to take care of it. It's not the marja's problem, it is yours. Maybe the marja' said something and you did not underestand it in its proper way.

Furthermore, the marja' is not responsible for our beliefs. He can guide based on his understanding of our religion, but the usul al-din need to be recongised and acknowledged by our own selves. In the end, we are responsible for our souls, no one else.

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