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In the Name of God بسم الله

Female Circumcision

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It was my understanding that female circumcision was a cultural practice with no religious founding. But we have some ahadith (from http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/female-circumcision) which apparently say that female circumcision is halal and permissible. Is this something still practiced among the Shia? Do any of you know shia females who were circumcised?

Female circumcision

From Wasa’il ash-Shi`a, in the book of trade, chapters on what one trades in

18 Ü ÈÇÈ Ãäå áÇ ÈÃÓ ÈÎÝÖ (*) ÇáÌæÇÑí æÂÏÇÈå

18 – Chapter on that there is no harm in circumcising girls, and its etiquette

[ 22170 ] 1 Ü ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ÚÏÉ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÈí äÕÑ ¡ Úä åÇÑæä Èä ÇáÌåã ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : áãÇ åÇÌÑÊ ÇáäÓÇÁ Åáì ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáøì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ) åÇÌÑÊ Ýíåä ÇãÑÃÉ íÞÇá áåÇ : Ãã ÍÈíÈ ¡ æßÇäÊ ÎÇÝÖÉ ÊÎÝÖ ÇáÌæÇÑí ¡ ÝáãÇ ÑÂåÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ) ÞÇá áåÇ : íÇ Ãã ÍÈíÈ ÇáÚãá ÇáÐí ßÇä Ýí íÏß åæ Ýí íÏß Çáíæã ¿ ÞÇáÊ : äÚã íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ÅáÇ Ãä íßæä ÍÑÇãÇ ÝÊäåÇäí Úäå ÞÇá : Èá ÍáÇá ¡ ÝÇÏäí ãäí ÍÊì ÃÚáãß ¡ ÞÇáÊ : ÝÏäæÊ ãäå ¡ ÝÞÇá : íÇ Ãã ÍÈíÈ ÅÐÇ ÃäÊ ÝÚáÊ ÝáÇ Êäåßí æáÇ ÊÓÊÃÕáí æÃÔãí ÝÅäå ÃÔÑÞ ááæÌå æÃÍÙì ÚäÏ ÇáÒæÌ . . . ÇáÍÏíË .

æÑæÇå ÇáÔíÎ ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ãËáå .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub (in al-Kafi) from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from Harun b. a-Jahm from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã). He said: When the women emigrated to the Messenger of Aah (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå), a woman emigrated amongst them who was called Umm Habib, and she was a circumciser, circumcising girls. So when the Messenger of Allah (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) saw her, he said to her: O Umm Habib, the work which was in your hand, is it in your hand today? She said: Yes, O Messenger of Allah, except if it is haram, then prohibit me from it. He said: Rather, it halal. So draw near to me in order that I might teach you. She said: So I drew near to him. So he said: O Umm Habib, when you do (it), then do not exhaust (i.e. do not exaggerate on the cutting) and do not uproot, and sniff (i.e. cut slightly), for verily it is brighter for the face and more favorable with the husband – al-hadith

And the Shaykh (Tusi) narrated it by his isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad its like.

[ 22171 ] 2 Ü æÚäåã ¡ Úä Óåá Èä ÒíÇÏ ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÃÓÈÇØ ¡ Úä ÎáÝ Èä ÍãÇÏ ¡ Úä ÚãÑæ Èä ËÇÈÊ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ßÇäÊ ÇãÑÃÉ íÞÇá áåÇ : Ãã ØíÈÉ ÊÎÝÖ ÇáÌæÇÑí ¡ ÝÏÚÇåÇ ÇáäÈí ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ) ÝÞÇá áåÇ : íÇ Ããø ØíÈÉ ÅÐÇ ÎÝÖÊ ÝÃÔãí æáÇ ÊÌÍÝí ÝÅäå ÃÕÝì ááæä ÇáæÌå ¡ æÃÍÙì ÚäÏ ÇáÈÚá .

ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ãËáå .

2 – And from them from Sahl b. Ziyad from `Ali b. Asbat from Khalf b. Hammad from `Amr b. Thabit from Abu `Abdillah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã). He said: There was a woman called Umm Tayyiba, she circumcised the girls. So the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) called her and said to her: O Umm Tayyiba, when you circumcise then sniff and do not strip off (?), for verily it is clearer for the face and more favorable with the husband.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan (Shaykh Tusi in at-Tahdhib) by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub its like.

[ 22172 ] 3 Ü æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Úä æåÈ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Úä Úáí ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : áÇ ÊÎÝÖ ÇáÌÇÑíÉ ÍÊì ÊÈáÛ ÓÈÚ Óäíä .

3 – And by his (Tusi’s) isnad (in at-Tahdhib) from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from Abu Ja`far from his father from Wahb from Ja`far from his father from `Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã). He said: Do not circumcise the girl until she attains seven years.

ÃÔãí æáÇ Êäåßí : ÔÈå ÇáÞØÚ ÇáíÓíÑ ÈÇÔãÇã ÇáÑÇÆÍÉ ¡ æÇáäåß : ÇáãÈÇáÛÉ ¡ Ãí ÇÞØÚí ÈÚÖ ÇáäæÇÉ æáÇ ÊÓÊÃÕáåÇ ( ÇáäåÇíÉ 2 : 503 ) .

From Wasa’il ash-Shi`a, in the book of marriage, chapters on the ahkam of children

56 Ü ÈÇÈ æÌæÈ ÇáÎÊÇä Úáì ÇáÑÌÇá æÚÏã æÌæÈ ÇáÎÝÖ Úáì ÇáäÓÇÁ

56 – Chapter on the obligation of circumcision upon men and the absence of wujub of circumcision upon women

[ 27531 ] 1 Ü ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÍÈæÈ ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÑÆÇÈ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ Ü íÚäí ÇáãÑÇÏí Ü ÞÇá : ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÇáÌÇÑíÉ ÊÓÈì ãä ÃÑÖ ÇáÔÑß ÝÊÓáã ÝíØáÈ áåÇ ãä íÎÝÖåÇ ÝáÇ íÞÏÑ Úáì ÇãÑÃÉ ¿ ÝÞÇá : ÃãÇ ÇáÓäÉ ÝÇáÎÊÇä Úáì ÇáÑÌÇá ¡ æáíÓ Úáì ÇáäÓÇÁ .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub (in al-Kafi) from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Ibn Ri’ab from Abu Basir – meaning al-Muradi. He said: I asked Abu Ja`far (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) about the girl (slave-girl?) who is captured from the land of shirk, and she becomes Muslim, so it is sought of her that she be circumcised, but a woman is not available. So he said: As to the sunna, then circumcision is upon men, and it is not upon women.

[ 27532 ] 2 Ü æÚäå ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÓäÇä ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÎÊÇä ÇáÛáÇã ãä ÇáÓäÉ æÎÝÖ ÇáÌÇÑíÉ áíÓ ãä ÇáÓäÉ .

2 – And from him from Ahmad from Muhammad b. `Isa from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã). He said: Circumcision of boys is from the sunna, and circumcision of girls is not from the sunna.

[ 27533 ] 3 Ü æÚä Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ¡ Úä åÇÑæä Èä ãÓáã ¡ Úä ãÓÚÏÉ Èä ÕÏÞÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÎÝÖ ÇáäÓÇÁ ãßÑãÉ ¡ æáíÓ ãä ÇáÓäÉ ¡ æáÇ ÔíÆÇ æÇÌÈÇ ¡ æÃíø ÔíÁ ÃÝÖá ãä ÇáãßÑãÉ ¿ æÑæÇå ÇáÍãíÑí Ýí ( ÞÑÈ ÇáÇÓäÇÏ ) Úä åÇÑæä Èä ãÓáã .

æÑæÇå ÇáÔíÎ ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ æßÐÇ ÇáÇæá .

3 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Sadaqa from Abu `Abdillah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã). He said: Circumcision of women is an ennobler, and it is not from the sunna, nor is it something wajib. And what thing is better than the ennobler?

And al-Himyari narrated it in Qurb al-Isnad from Harun b. Muslim.

And the Shaykh (Tusi) narrated it by his isnad (in at-Tahdhib) by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub, and likewise the first (hadith).

58 Ü ÈÇÈ ÇÓÊÍÈÇÈ ÎÝÖ ÇáÈäÊ æÂÏÇÈå

58 – Chapter on the recommendation of circumcising the girl and its etiquette

[ 27535 ] 1 Ü ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ÚÏÉ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÈÚÖ ÃÕÍÇÈå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÓäÇä ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÇáÎÊÇä ÓäÉ Ýí ÇáÑÌÇá ¡ æãßÑãÉ Ýí ÇáäÓÇÁ .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub (in al-Kafi) from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from some of his companions from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã). He said: Circumcision is sunna for men, and an ennobler for women.

[ 27537 ] 3 Ü æÝí ( ÇáÚáá ) : Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ ¡ Úä ãÚÇæíÉ Èä ÚãÇÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Ýí Þæá ÓÇÑÉ : « Çááåã áÇ ÊÄÇÎÐäí ÈãÇ ÕäÚÊ ÈåÇÌÑ » : ÅäøåÇ ßÇäÊ ÎÝÖÊåÇ ( áÊÎÑÌ ãä íãíäåÇ ) ÈÐáß .

3 – And (as-Saduq) in al-`Ilal from his father from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Mu`awiya b. `Ammar from Abu `Abdillah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) regarding the saying of Sarah “O Allah, do not take me by what I did to Hajar”: Verily she had circumcised her [so that she would go out from her possession (lit. her right-hand)] by that.

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Are we reading the same ahadith Ibrahim? Those posted in the opening post are completely ambiguous on the parts to remove and the method of their removal.. They only talk about "cutting it slightly" a

Among tassanun, I think the permissibility of female circumcision, or, female genital mutilation, to be precise, is accepted only among the Shaf'i school of jurisprudence. I have recently found out th

So is that the purpose of the circumcision? To reduce temptation by removing the clitoris? I can't think of any medical reason for removing the clitoris (unlike male circumcision which has A LOT of me

Wrong. The Shafi`is are the ones (as well as the more famous view from the Hanbalis) who consider it _wajib_. Malikis consider it sunna and Hanafis consider it makruma (what I have translated as ennobler). All schools are agreed on it being permissible (I'm not counting the views on some modernists you might be able to find that have decided to go against their madhhab). As to that polemical tag of FGM, what's next? Will you start lamenting having been "mutilated" as a baby when you were circumcised too?

Anyhow, we should be clear here we are not talking about here. Scholars (from what I understand of it) don't interpret this to mean a full out removal. Read the hadiths carefully, they're talking about something more minor than that. I'd rather not speculate on what exactly that encompasses in terms of precise definition, as I don't know it, but still it shouldn't necessarily be confused with the more drastic operation that is done by some.

What exactly is being cut? I was under the impression that the Africans (and some Kurds) cut off the clitoris, which is abhorrent.

Edited by Dirac Delta function
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^ ughh reading that was aweful! Poor girls! And most probably have it done without anesthetics too :squeez:

There is a shortage of "tools" and "experts" in European countries. There have been cases where African girls, who couldn't be taken/sent to their countries of origin to get done, were done in their homes with shaving blades, broken pieces of glass and other sharp objects. Talk about anesthetics. I am talking about recorded cases. Not to mention those which go unrecorded. It caused a political storm in the Netherlands when some medical practitioners found out sewn girls and reported to the police. I think it's been criminalised there and school going girls hailing from some African countries are required to have complete medical check up frequently.

Edited by Marbles
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(salam) Circumcision (wheter male or female) IS NOT mentioned in the Qor'aan ANYWHERE! It is practised in the Ummah on the basis that Hazrat Ibrahim (a.s.) was circumcised, at least according to the Bible NOT the Qor'aan (another example of the Ummah following the Jewish law like with death for apostacy or stoning for adutary which are Jewish laws not mentioned in the Qor'aan ANYWHERE)! For although Hazrat Ibrahim (a.s.) is extensively mentioned in the Qor'aan as one to follow, it is NOWHERE IN THE QOR'AAN MENTIONED THAT HE WAS CIRCUMCISED!!!!! The advice to follow Hazrat Ibrahim (a.s.) refers EXCLUSIVELY in the Qor'aan to his total and absolute adherence to the ONE CREATOR! In fact there are verses in the Qor'aan that can be interpretated as testifying against the practise of circumcision;

(bismillah)

(95;4] We have indeed created man in the BEST OF MOULDS.

[23;14] Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the BEST OF ALL CREATORS!

[27;88] The work of Allah who has PERFECTED EVERYTHING (He created)

[32;7] He is the One Who has made PERFECTLY everything' He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay.

[67;3] You will NOT SEE ANY FLAW in what the Lord of Mercy creates.

It is clear that the idea of circumcising women in order to temper their lust (which is the real reason it is done in Africa among both Muslims and non-Muslims) goes AGAINST the Qor'aan, for this practise implies that women are created "dirty" (as the Somalis say) and lustfull whilest the Qor'aan says that Allah created EVERYTHING perfect the way it is by the BEST Creator. Therefor the practise of female circumcision MUST BE ON THE BASIS OF THE QOR'AAN BE CONDAMNED!

Fi Amanilah

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Bro may I remind you that this thread was not intended to discuss ancient African FGM traditions or how the ignorant offsprings of the Kharijites do it or how it is according to their mullahs. It was, instead, a serious attempt about finding the truth and the Shia way. Such deliberate distractions raise doubts in people who are sincere to finding the truth instead.

Surgery is a very delicate thing and sometimes results in death when done wrongly. Its not the fault of the medical doctrine. And it is always done for a constructive purpose. If I was shameless I would carry on with this topic and you know I would show you what you're asking for but I'm a decent man. Just google up the anatomical details yourself, read my post carefull and that should be enough. Otherwise, you were and still are able to back yourself up with medical evidence. :) (I'm sorry but the WHO [Edited Out] you posted does not comment on the right surgical procedure as I've explain in my previous post).

Lastly, I may be wrong afterall, of course. It was just an idea and theoretically there is nothing wrong with it, infact it sounds constructive if done right.

Surgery indeed is a delicate thing and can cause harm if done improperly. But what if someone offers me a free eye surgery and insists that they will cut a bit of skin and then sew the eye. Ummm, not a pretty analogy but I'd at least do one thing. I'd ask FOR WHAT REASON?

I am not convinced that not discussing the issue in detail is a sign of decency. This is a real issue with many and there's nothing shameful about it.

Anyways I also want to find out how it is done in Shia way and what medical benefits, if any, it has. So let's see if someone can help us.

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(salam)

They are two types of female circumcisions. The first one is barbaric. Only a criminal would cut up girls in such manner.

And no one knows what purpose the second type of circumcision serves. In the west, there are plastic surgeries which looks a whole like circumcision. They are becoming very popular.

The best is to check with your marja.

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(salam)

They are two types of female circumcisions. The first one is barbaric. Only a criminal would cut up girls in such manner.

And no one knows what purpose the second type of circumcision serves. In the west, there are plastic surgeries which looks a whole like circumcision. They are becoming very popular.

The best is to check with your marja.

The purpose of the second kind is purely cosmetic, though I'm not sure if it would make sense to give that kind of treatment to a young girl.

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Did you even read what you quoted? Read the part immediately before what you've bolded.

Of course I have. The part before states how you do it. The emboldened tells why you do it.

Actually, besides being curious to find out about its medical benefits if any, I am also interested in finding out that what is being "cut slightly" and not "uprooted" - to use terms from your ingenious translations.

Maybe you can help?

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I don't know about the biology behind it, but I never understood why female circumcision is seen as somehow reprehensible while male circumcision is accepted. I would like to know what are the differences.

Edited by baradar_jackson
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So i asked a scholar and he told me that it is halal but not wajib for a female to get a the circumcision, however after she becomes baligh she can no longer do it. He didn't know any benefits to the procedure however.

I have yet to find any benefits either. :shrug:

Probably just cosmetic....if that's what tickles your fancy....

Cutting the clitoris is completely out of line though, there can't be a justification for that.

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Because it's impossible for a woman to think outside the dictates of western feminist thought and still be a self respecting, intelligent individual? So much for all that hot air about allowing women to choose their own path in life and what to do with their bodies.

Don't be so naive. The article is filled with absurd biological claims that no educated nurse would make.

Perhaps you'd be more comfortable if like some folks instead of admitting when I don't know the details of a law or keeping silent, I just make something up to suit my fancy.

But you didn't stay silent. You went out of your way to translate a number of texts about the subject, created an html document with the translations, and uploaded them via ftp to your website. How can you promote something when you don't even know what it is? If you choose to post narrations promoting something, should you not be able to clarify precisely what is being referred to if questioned, especially for a subject which is so controversial? When is it going to get through your head that these discussions about the law are not an academic parlour game? It's not a detached abstraction we're talking about here - we are talking about people's lives that are affected. It's pretty easy to be casual and abstract when your wife and daughter are safely living here, in a place where they can pursue their dreams and potential, safe from the witchdoctors with the rusty razor blades and the stoning judges. Isn't it?

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Don't be so naive. The article is filled with absurd biological claims that no educated nurse would make.

So now you've added human biology to your claims of knowledge?

But you didn't stay silent. You went out of your way to translate a number of texts about the subject, created an html document with the translations, and uploaded them via ftp to your website. How can you promote something when you don't even know what it is? When is it going to get through your head that this is not an academic parlour game? It's not a detached abstraction we're talking about here - we are talking about people's lives that are affected. It's pretty easy to be casual and abstract when your wife and daughter are safely living here, in a place where they can pursue their dreams and potential, safe from the witchdoctors with the rusty razor blades and the stoning judges. Isn't it?

Unlike some, I don't believe in discarding parts of our religion that don't suit my emotional whims and cultural biases. You've already made it quite clear many times your disdain of the laws of the Shari`a as well as those who actually believe in it, advocating instead your own set of humanistic principles in their place and the doing away of all those laws that conflict with them while making high claims of Islamic backing, though never providing any real proof for it, instead claiming that scriptural evidence is somehow unnecessary and missing the point.

In this particular case, there are many Muslims today who'll make groundless claims of female circumcision having nothing to do with our religion, to be strictly forbidden, to be a pagan practice, and to shout as loud as any other self-righteous liberal activist in condemning it. My point in translating those texts (and I'll note there is also a page on male circumcision there as well) is so that folks can see for themselves what their religion actually says. If you dislike that, then that's your problem. My point in translating these and other texts though is not to set myself up as some self-proclaimed authority that has the right to interpret and define the actual laws. It's so that people who otherwise cannot read the sources themselves might have access to something (if in a translated form) in the language they do understand. Would you prefer folks to just remain in ignorance of their religion? As to female circumcision, the hadiths and the view of our sect is there for us to see. It's allowed, not forbidden though not obligatory, and spoken of in a positive fashion. The precise definition of what and where in the female's anatomy in to be cut or not is something however I don't know, though clearly from these hadiths over-cutting is something to be avoided. If folks do care to learn of that with more precision, I would say they ought to refer to the experts in our law.

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So now you've added human biology to your claims of knowledge?

I'm no biologist or physician, but I've picked up enough in my travels to recognize BS when I see it. To take a few points:

Where the cuts are made, there are fewer nerves or blood vessels cut than in male circumcision.

Nonsense. The labia minora and clitoris are dense in blood supply and nerve endings. That's why they are so sensitive to the touch and why they swell with blood to a degree that is visible upon arousal.

births amongst circumcised women were found to be easier. This is exactly the opposite of what the Western "Feminist" and "Human Rights" groups would have you believe. With external genital tissue already removed, there was far less need for

episiotomies. Caesarain births were reduced. Labour is generally shorter and easier in circumcised women and healing of the birth canal and the surrounding region much easier.

Medically necessary Caesarean births do not result from external genitalia. They result from issues deeper inside the reproductive tract - the uterus and cervix, their contraction, and the position of the baby.

Length of labour is primarily related to the rate of dilation of the cervix brought about by the contractions of uterine muscles.

Episiotomies are carried out when it is feared that the perineal tissues are too inelastic to permit the passage of the baby's head without tearingof the perineum or vagina. The clitoris has no relation to this, and the labia minora are a different tissue from the perineum.

It could be clearly seen from the data that, in the case of full female circumcision, genito-urinary tract

infections were reduced to about 10% of their level in previously uncircumcised women.

Evidence of this claim?

It is exactly the opposite! Intercourse is far more pleasurable because the whole of the sexual act is made spiritual in nature and focuses entirely on intercourse with your husband. Do circumcised women still enjoy orgasms? OF COURSE THEY DO! With no external genital tissue in the way, penetration is deeper and more satisfying and with all

sensation coming only from penetration, the resulting vaginal orgasim is deeply intense in a way that an uncircumcised woman could not understand.

How in the world do the external genitalia "get in the way" or hinder depth of penetration? The notion that depth of penetration plays a big role in female pleasure during intercourse is questionable anyway, as the sensitive areas of the vagina are at the outer portion anyway.

This paragraph is just wrong on so many levels, the implicit pseudo-Freudian current of promotion of the "vaginal orgasm " as the authentic experience of female pleasure as opposed to the selfish clitoral orgasm being only one of those levels. This paragraph screams, "I was written by a man."

Sixth, it is well known in countries as far afield as Indonesia and Malasyia to Egypt, that girls who have been circumcised do better in school and university.

Proof?

My point in translating those texts (and I'll note there is also a page on male circumcision there as well) is so that folks can see for themselves what their religion actually says. If you dislike that, then that's your problem. My point in translating these and other texts though is not to set myself up as some self-proclaimed authority that has the right to interpret and define the actual laws. It's so that people who otherwise cannot read the sources themselves might have access to something (if in a translated form) in the language they do understand. Would you prefer folks to just remain in ignorance of their religion?

But you clearly don't know yourself what "the religion says." You yourself are "ignorant of your religion."

The precise definition of what and where in the female's anatomy in to be cut or not is something however I don't know

I don't understand how someone can promote something when he doesn't even know what it is he's talking about.

By the way, if you're proud of what you posted, why have you since taken down the page?

Edited by kadhim
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But you clearly don't know yourself what "the religion says." You yourself are "ignorant of your religion."

I don't understand how someone can promote something when he doesn't even know what it is he's talking about.

What exactly are you looking for? Need I provide colored diagrams of the clitoris in order for you to understand? All I am saying is that some form of female circumcision is clearly allowed and even recommended upon. You can see this from the hadiths, but also if you referenced the works of our great scholars in history you'd also find this. It is also clear that one should avoid over cutting of the area. Now, not being particularly expert in the fine details of the female's anatomy, I'm not going to sit here and start making stuff up in order to satisfy your desire. Yes, I've looked, and most of what I've found is pretty general, that is, saying it is not obligatory so that if a woman hasn't done it there is no harm, however if she has had it done then there is a virtue and reward attached to it, that is, that it's recommended though at the same time advising not to over cut.

So let me flip the tables. Are you only interested in your usual ad hominems, or do you have a point? That is, what do you think the legal status of female circumcision is? Please be as specific as you're demanding of others, and back up everything you are saying by clear proofs from the religion. (That is, I don't really care an iota about your "feelings" on the topic, I want to know what my religion says, so, prove it to me from the religion itself). If you don't know and will admit to that, I have no issue with such an admission. If however you are going to make a claim, then prove it.

By the way, if you're proud of what you posted, why have you since taken down the page?

I haven't. It's still there:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/female-circumcision

(here's the one on male circumcision for those who are interested: http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/male-circumcision )

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What exactly are you looking for?

I'm looking for you to show some basic responsibility in what you post.

Yes, I've looked, and most of what I've found is pretty general, that is, saying it is not obligatory so that if a woman hasn't done it there is no harm, however if she has had it done then there is a virtue and reward attached to it, that is, that it's recommended though at the same time advising not to over cut.

Cut what? The prepuce of the clitoris? The glans clitoris? The labia minora? What? This is not a detached academic exercise. Actual human beings will have this procedure performed on them by people who will need to know precisely what to do. If you want to promote something you should be able to specify what is a legitimate following of the text and what is butchery. I don't think it is a big deal to expect you to show the courage to be able to distinguish between the two.

So let me flip the tables. Are you only interested in your usual ad hominems, or do you have a point?

The only one making ad-hominems is yourself, Mac. You resort to them like clockwork whenever someone challenges you as a way to escape dealing with rational discussion.

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So before anybody can cite what our scholars say on a topic, they now need to become mujtahids themselves? Unless you're claiming you have a total mastery over all of the details of Islamic laws, with proofs, evidences, and the knowledge of every detail of their functions, exceptions and so on, will you also refrain from posting anything about it in the future?

It's quite simple. If you want to use the connotation laden English term "female circumcision," with all the controversy surrounding what that means, and claim that Islam permits "female circumcision" if it's done correctly and "not excessively," you should be able to elaborate in at least some basic fashion on what is correct and what is excessive. That you would, knowing full well this controversy, simply drop these narrations without feeling any responsibility to elaborate on their meaning shows either naivete or irresponsibility.

Ask the experts. I haven't claimed to be one.

This is a copout. Somehow I suspect that if the term "male circumcision" were similarly ambiguous, with understandings in practice ranging from trimming the foreskin through cutting off the tip of the penis to complete castration, you would muster a little more concern to research and pin down what Islam allows and doesn't more precisely than "well, just make sure you don't cut too much."

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