Enquiry into Khums Accounts of Marjas

[AbdullaQ]

I would like to make a note here:

When I was in lebanon, I found it VERY EASY for me to get support to become a student of Islam. Every sheik I spoke to was able to tell me, when you are ready, we can take care of you. Also, the amounts they pay are exactly what you need to live. They are clear about the income not being enough to support a family, thus if you are married, you have to find other means of getting more income. Housing was also not a problem (unless you are married).

Also, I have seen MANY widows and children attending schools on the expense of the believers. I have seen houses built. Singles gotten married... etc

I have sat, ate, and drank with a few leaders of mosques in Lebanon and you can SEE that they are there to HELP. I am not saying everyone is a saint, but those whom are not saints are obvious in their actions. After seeing with my own eyes, I have NO PROBLEM what-so-ever giving any money to those I was witnessed their eman (belief).

We all have a relative, or a sheik, or someone we know is a good person and takes money to people who need it. If not, then go and get to know people! Allah has put brotherhood in the hearts of the believers. It is not hard. All I did was go to a mosque and wait until I saw the sheik, then I spoke to him when I got a chance.

Peace.

[Orion]

Sallams,

Great topic! This has been on my mind for years and i have spoken to some of the renowned English speakers who tour the world for their thoughts. One of them (i will not name for obvious reasons) told me if he brought up the issue of khums (the corruption and misuse) on the minbar, he would get his spine ripped out of his back. An extreme metaphor i know, but it goes to show the struggle to maintain power over the millions if not billions of $$.

Br husainshahid, i really doubt you will find any accounts, transparency or anything resembling an audit (but wish you luck!). I believe we have reached an age (we certainly have the expertise and know-how) that khums money should be audited and annual reports produced documenting the projects happening around the world. I can however understand the argument of 'the shia community is oppressed' hence the need for secrecy (this really applies only in the ME & Asia). This should not stop us from coming up with solutions to embrace transparency in the West. I for one believe we have a long way to go before we start utilizing khums money effectively and efficiently.

Br Orion, set aside Shaheed Sadr's masterpiece, Our economics, the Jafaria school of thought has done very little in terms of implementing and promoting an Islamic economy or producing material in regard to Islamic finance.

As has been discussed before. Most of the Khums money is collected and distributed locally. It never reaches the Marja himself. So if there is any need for improvement it is at the local level. Also note that very few Shia actually give Khums. So auditing the Marja is not the answer.

I would suggest that under the guidance of Maraje:

-Awareness among Shia to give Khums should be increased.

-Networks should be made for centralized collection of Khums.

-Assessment bodies should be made to identify community needs and areas (people and projects) in need of Khums.

-Similarly, Khums distribution systems should be devised.

WS

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Lastly, Br MDM mentioned regarding the Al Khoei Foundation and its accounts. If I am not mistaken Al Khoei Foundation is a registered Charity in UK hence it has to disclose its account publically just as all the charities in UK have to however there is no such obligation out of UK hence you do not find the accounts so easily.

thats no doubt true bro, but lets say theres only 10,000 of khums paying people going through the al khoei centre in the uk alone, which is pretty low considering the 404 jaloos on its own has a minimum of 2 - 3000 people every year who show up, and thats not even in london.

1/5th of the eligable money would equal many hundreds of thousands of pounds in the uk alone, so i was expecting that to reflect in the accounts but its not?

having said that, i didnt know about agha sistani allowing people to use their khums on their own projects until very recently, ive always assumed that it all goes into one big pot and no one sees or hears from it ever again.

[Orion]

1/5th of the eligable money would equal many hundreds of thousands of pounds in the uk alone, so i was expecting that to reflect in the accounts but its not?

Thats likely because out of those many Shia very few people give Khums.

having said that, i didnt know about agha sistani allowing people to use their khums on their own projects until very recently, ive always assumed that it all goes into one big pot and no one sees or hears from it ever again.

You should thank Allah that you are well to do and not among those who see khums as they are on the receiving end.

[Amir-Husayn]

Thats likely because out of those many Shia very few people give Khums.

Yes, and there are people who do not give khums specifically because there is no accountability with it. Maybe for some that is not their real reason, but nonetheless it has an impact. Would you give your money to a charity that had no accountability because as a charity they should be trustworthy? I wouldn't and I don't really trust the people who work for the marja's any more. Every large organization will have corruption if their is no oversight because it is human nature. We are not talking about trusting our marja', we are talking about trusting their organization.

As for audits, tax audits are only one form. Governments do not have themselves audited for tax purposes and at my work we have internal company audits that are not for tax purposes, but to find out if everything is going towards where the paperwork says it is going. If the offices of the marja's kept proper records of what is coming in and where it was going out to then these records could be investigated that make sure that all the money was going where it was supposed to and not disappearing somewhere along the way.

Lets be honest, we all know that khums money is being misappropriated. The only thing we don't know is if it is a small amount or a large amount and the only way we will find out and solve the problem is when we insist structures are put in place to assure accountability in these offices.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Lets be honest, we all know that khums money is being misappropriated. The only thing we don't know is if it is a small amount or a large amount and the only way we will find out and solve the problem is when we insist structures are put in place to assure accountability in these offices.

my thoughts exactly. i know its not currupt across the board, but there are bad eggs everywhere, but every single marja says its wajib to obey the laws of the country, isnt auditing accounts a law in this country? i would be interested to see where the money goes myself. the state of shia communities in the uk is atrocious

[A follower]

my thoughts exactly. i know its not currupt across the board, but there are bad eggs everywhere, but every single marja says its wajib to obey the laws of the country, isnt auditing accounts a law in this country? i would be interested to see where the money goes myself. the state of shia communities in the uk is atrocious

The disclosure of the accounts is only if you are a registered charity in this country otherwise there is no obligation. The alternative it is if you are doing business then you have to disclose your accounts given the company mechanism.

The offices of the Marjas do not qualify as either hence they are under no obligation to disclose their accounts publically.

In regards to the centres or the communities across UK you can find the disclosure of the Khums and its expenditure in their accounts published yearly, such is the case in most if not all the Khoja Communities across the UK. And if the centres or the organisations are collecting khums themselves per the ijaza of a marja then they are liable because they are using the khums money within their centre or organisation.

[husainshahid]

(bismillah)

MY RESPONSES TO BROTHER ORION ARE IN CAPITALS

More lack of understanding about Marjas:

You are going to educate them? Have you read the book "Iqtasaduna" by Ayatullah Baqar as Sadr? They are the ones who educate the world about financial matters, and not the other way around.

EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT. MOST OF SYED SISTANI'S FOLLOWERS ARE INDIAN OR PAKISTANI. HE HAS NOT EVEN BOTHERED TO VSIIT THESE COUNTRIES. IT IS A PUBLIC RELATIONS DISASTER. THE POPE VISITS THE POOR IN ALL COUNTRIES. SYED SISTANI IS NOT A POPE BUT HE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO OFFER MODERN LEADERSHIP. HE NEEDS TO TAKE LESSONS ON HOW TO BEHAVE AS A MODERN LEADER. IN THIS JET AGE IT TAKES 2 HOURS FROM BASRA TO KARACHI OR LAHORE AND TO THE MAJORITY OF HIS FOLLOWERS IN PAKISTAN AND INDIA, BUT HE DOES NOT, AND THERE IS NO SADDAM TO OFFER AS AN EXCUSE NOW. COMPARE THAT TO THE POPE, THE DALAI LAMA, ETC ETC.

Ayatullahs are not divine or semi-divine. They are people who fear God and provide services to us at no cost on voluntary bases

YOUR BELIEF THEY DO NOT NEED TO PRODUCE ACCOUNTS SUGGESTS THEY ARE INCAPABLE OF MAKING ERRORS - HENCE INFALLIBLE. THEY PROVIDE SERVICES AT A GREAT PRICE - KHUMS, IMMENSE STATUS, POWER, PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND FOR THEM, IN MANY CASES THERE ARE POLITICAL PERKS FOR THEIR FAMILY - IRAQ IS CONTROLLED BY 3 FAMILIES OF CLERICS - THE SADR CLAN, THE KHOEI CLAN AND THE HAKIM CLAN. OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE NAMES ON TV. IS THIS NEPOTISM? TO US IN THE WEST IT SEEMS THAT WAY, TO THEM IN IRAQ IT IS A CULTURAL HERITAGE TO GIVE POWER TO YOUR TRIBESMEN AMONGST THE ARABS. ONCE AGAIN, MANY MARJAS SEEM VERY PARTIAL TO THESE LITTLE HUMAN TENDENCIES. ON THE OTHER HAND SYED KHOMEINI (ra) WAS NOT - BUT MOST OF THEM ARE NOT KHOMEINIS, THOUGH THEIR FOLLOWERS LIKE TO TAKE THE KHOMEINOI GLITTER AND SPREAD IT AS FAR AND WIDE ACROSS THE INSTITUTION OF MARJAIYAT AS POSSIBLE.

The dispute is about how to run the country at its best. Its not about money.

WHERE THE ISSUE OF RUNNING THE COUNTRY CAME INTO THIS DEBATE FROM I DON'T KNOW. HALF THE MARJAS BELIEVE THEY RULE, THE OTHER HALF BELIEVE THEY DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO RULE. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY. IT'S ALSO ABOUT POWER.

Again lack of understanding about Marja office, position and responsibility. Also shows that you are fundamentally against Marja collecting Khums and think that they have taken up this task themselves.

THEY HAVE.

They are doing an excellent job. More than what is expected of them. And they are well aware of what goes on in your "modern" world.

IRAQ IN SMITHEREENS, GO TO INDIA AND PAKISTAN AND SEE POOR SHIAS ON STREET CORNERS, SHIAS BLOWN TO KINGDOM COME IN PAKISTAN. EXCELLENT JOB! CONTRADICTORY FATWAS. INCREASING DISILLUSIONMENT WITH THE MULLAS, INCLUDING ULEMA CONDEMNING THEIR OWN.

MARJAS SAYING THAT OTHER MARJAS WILL BURN IN HELL UNLESS THEY REPENT, ISSUING HOUSE ARREST ORDERS ON EACH OTHER, CONDEMNING EACH OTHER. PLEASE VISIT THE BIOGRAPHIES OF MEN LIKE SYED KHOMEINI (ra), SYED KHAMENEI, MESSRS MONTAZERI AND SHARIATMADARI AND SYED SHIRAZI. MANY OF THESE MEN HAVE BEEN AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS, CONDEMING EACH OTHER AS MASSIVE DEVIANTS, AND PUTTING EACH OTHER HOUSE ARREST. BUT TO THE AYATOLLATERS THESE MEN ARE ALL JUST SAINTLY SANTA CLAUSES - A VERY SIMILAR MENTAL ATTITUDE THAT THE SUNNIS HAVE ABOUT THE SAHABA IS HELD BY AYATOLLATERS ABOUT THESE MEN - LIKE THE SAHABA THEY TOO HATE EACH OTHER BUT LIKE IN SUNNI ISLAM YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMMENT ON THIS AND MUST LOVE THEM ALL.

Marja are not Infallible but have you ever heard of any marja found guilty of financial fraud. Have you seen them build palaces and castles. Or leave gold and silver for their successors.

1. ARE MARJAS GUILTY OF FINANCIAL FRAUD? NO, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SEEN THEIR ACCOUNTS. SINCE THEY ARE SELF-APPOINTED LAWGIVERS, IF ONE WAS A FRAUDSTER HE WILL PROBABLY ALSO PASS A FATWA EXONERATING HIMSELF OF FRAUD IF FOUND GUILTY.

2. DO THEY HAVE PALACES AND CASTLES? WHO NEEDS A CASTLE WHEN YOU RULE OVER THE WHOLE OF PERSIA? THEY ARE LORD AND MASTER OVER WHOLE COUNTRIES AND IN NEXTDOOR IRAQ ARE LINING UP TO BE PRESIDENTS AND MINISTERS. INCIDENTALLY I SEE NO REAL ISSUE WITH SYED KHAMENEI RULING POLITICALLY. MAY GOD GUIDE HIM. I AM SIMPLY PICKING UP ON YOUR NAIVETY.

3. GOLD AND SILVER FOR THEIR SUCCESSORS? DEAR BROTHER, THE ULEMA THEMSELVES BOAST THAT SYED KHOMEINI (ra) WAS SUCH A GOOD REFORMER THAT HE WAS THE FIRST MARJA IN LIVING MEMORY TO GIVE HIS KHUMS STOCKPILE TO HIS SUCCESSOR AS MARJA (SYED KHAMENEI) AND NOT HIS SONS. MOST MARJAS GIVE THE TRUST FOR THEIR 'GOLD AND SILVER' (KHUMS) TO THEIR BLOOD SONS NOT THEIR RELIGIOUS SUCCESSORS. THIS IS A SHOCKING FACT. DID THE LATE SYED KHOEI'S KHUMS STOCKPILE GO TO SYED SISTANI WHO WAS SYED KHOEI'S SUCCESSOR? NO, IT WENT TO THE KHOEI BOYS. NOW THERE MAY BE POLITICAL REASONS FOR THAT AS SADDAM WAS IN CHARGE, BUT HE IS NO LONGER THERE AND THE MONEY IS STILL WITH THE KHOEI CLAN. I'M NOT ALLEGING MALPRACTICE THERE, MAY GOD GUIDE THEM, BUT IT IS ALL REALLY WEIRD HOW VAST SUMS GIVEN TO A MARJA 20 YEARS LATER IS IN THE TRUST OF HIS SONS.

THERE SEEMS A GREAT DEAL OF CULTURAL BACKWARDNESS IN MANY OF THE MARJAS. YES, THEY HAVE STUDIED. SO HAVE MANY PEOPLE. CERTAIN MENTALITIES DON'T CHANGE EVEN MANY YEARS AFTER MIGRATION. IN FACT IT CAN BE ARGUED THAT IN ONE SENSE MANY OF THESE MEN ARE LIKE VILLAGE ELDERS WHO HAPPENED TO BE IN TOWNS LIKE NAJAF AND KARBALA AND QOM AND FROM WHERE OWING TO THE STATUS OF THE TOWNS THEIR STATUS GOT MAGNIFIED. IT'S THE SAME IN INDIA, PAKISTAN AND NORTH AFRICA WITH THE SUFI MASTERS IN THE PROMINENT SUFI TOWN CENTRES. MOST HAVE RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE, WEAR DISTINGUISHING CLOTHES, AND HAVE PEOPLE GIVE THEM MONEY JUST LIKE THE MARJAS. CULTURALLY BOTH THE SUFI SAINTS AND THE MARJAS DISPLAY TRAITS OF THE TRADITIONAL TRIBAL / VILLAGE ELDERS, WHICH IS NOT SURPRISING BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR CULTURAL BACKGROUND. NOW IS THE FAULT OURS OR THEIRS FOR EXPECTING SO MUCH OF THEM? HAVE CERTAIN SHIAS MADE THE MARJAS INTO ICONS - SOMETHING THEY JUST ARE NOT? IF SO I AM PROUD TO BE CALLED AN ICONOCLAST.

BROTHER MY ADVICE IS TO BE MORE DISCERNING WITH THE MARJAS. LOOK AT AN INDIVIDUAL REALISTICALLY. I THINK SYED KHOEMINI (ra) WAS GREAT AND IS UNRIVALLED SINCE. BUT I DO NOT TRANSFER THAT RESPECT FOR SYED KHOMEINI (ra) TO THE INSTITUTION OF MARJAIYAT - THAT I LEAVE TO THE AYATOLLATERS. I RESPECT MANY OF SYED SISTANI'S FATWAS, BUT NOT ALL, AND THINK HE SHOULD GO AND VISIT PEOPLE LIKE A MODERN RELIGIOUS LEADER SHOULD. I USED TO GIVE THE IRAQI MARJAS THE EXCUSE OF BEING UNDER THE THUMB OF SADDAM, BUT NOW WITH TEH SHIAS IN CONTROL THEY STILLDO NOT BOTHER TO VISIT THE SHIAS MASSES.

NOW OUR DEAR IMAM ALI (as) VISITED THE POOR ORPHANS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND GAVE THEM FOOD, THESE SUPPOSED 'NAIB-E-IMAMS' SIT IN AIR-CONDITIONED ROOMS COLLECTING KHUMS EXPECTING PEOPLE TO VISIT THEM INSTEAD. NOT ONE OF NOTE HAS BOTHERED TO EVEN VISIT THE POOR SHIA MASSES IN THE SUBCONTINENT WHERE MOST POOR SHIAS LIVE. I DON'T SEE THE TRAITS OF A DEPUTY OF THE IMAMS (as) THERE. DO YOU?

MY VIEW AS AN USULI REALIST AND NOT AN AYATOLLATER IS THAT THESE MEN ARE DOCTORS OF THE LAW. ANYONE WHO HAS STUDIED DESERVES SOME FORM OF RESPECT, AFTER ALL THE HOLY PROPHET (SAWS) SAID SEEK KNOWLEDGE EVEN IN CHINA. BUT THAT IS WHERE MY LOVE AFFAIR WITH THE MARJAS ENDS. WORTHY OF ADORATION THEY ARE NOT, WORTHY OF CONSULTING THEY MAY BE, BUT CHOOSE CAREFULLY, VERY CAREFULLY ESPECIALLY AS WE PERHAPS ENTER THE DARK AGES BEFORE THE RISING OF THE 12TH IMAM (ATF). FOR THE TRADITIONS EXPLICITLY SAY IN THE DARK AGES THE ULEMA WILL NOT BE GUIDED. AS IDEALISTS PEOPLE HAVE SUPPOSED THAT MEANS SUNNI ULEMA, BUT AS REALISTS IF WE GO BACK TO THE WORDS OF THE HADITH IT DOES NOT SAY SUNNI ULEMA. IT SAYS ULEMA. ANYHOW I'M NOT GOING INTO THOSE AREAS IN MORE DEPTH AS IT WOULD REQUIRE A SEPARATE THREAD.

AND OF COURSE MANY GOOD ULEMA EXIST EVEN THEN.

BUT DON'T FOR ONE MINUTE DELUDE YOURSELF THAT BEING RAISED IN A MARJA'S FAMILY AND ATTENDING CLASSES IN A HOWZA, PUTTING ON A GOWN AND CAPE, MAKES YOU A SAINT. JUTS LIKE ATTENDING MARTIAL ARTS LESSONS AND DRESSING UP AS BATMAN DOESN'T MAKE YOU A SUPERHERO, NOR DOES STUDYING AT A RELIGIOUS SEMINARY THEN PUTTING ON A CLOAK AND A TURBAN MAKE YOU A SAINT.

Edited November 2, 2009 by husainshahid

[BintAlHoda]

Brother HusainShahid,

I think I understand your concerns. However, please keep in mind:

* Following a particular marja' is voluntary and no one is forcing anyone to follow Ayatollah Seestani or to pay khums to him.

* Going to hawzah and wearing a turban and being part of a family of ulama does not make someone a marja'. You are underestimating the intellectual work necessary to reach that stage. It might be able to make someone a neighborhood preacher (even though it shouldn't) but not a marja'. Marja's aren't even just Ayatullahs; it takes a combination of factors to reach that level including intellectual ability, dedication, sacrifice, and educational opportunity.

Yes it is generally true that people born to families whose parents can give them religious education from an early age and born in the centers of religious learning (eg Najaf, Qum) have a greater chance of becoming a marja' due to their increased educational opportunities. That's just a reality of life, just like children of doctors who are raised in a community with a good school and who can afford to go to university have an increased chance of becoming doctors. However one difference with religious scholarship is that if someone is truly dedicated, even if they are poor they can go to hawzah and be supported by the system, especially if they are talented. And many of our greatest ulama lived in poverty.

And if you feel that strongly about what you are saying... the door is open. You can dedicate yourself to that study; you probably have more resources than any of the maraji' did. Nowadays you can get hawzah classes on CD-ROM, there are boatloads of printed books, etc. It's easier than it was in the past. Perhaps after twenty or so years of hard work you might gets omewhere near that level of scholarship.

But if you're not willing to do that.... well, as they say, talk is cheap. It's easy to criticize, and hard to buckle down and do hard work. So if you aren't willing to do that, think before you speak and make sure you aren't just talking the talk but unwilling to walk the walk.

If you are concerned about what Ayatollah Seestani is doing, why not visit him and say so. He is extremely busy, and also aged, but he is not inaccessible. That is more beneficial than just typing in BIG LETTERS on ShiaChat. Typing on ShiaChat is the easy way out. If you feel that strongly, go do something about it.

Yes there are issues with the institution of marja'iyyah - just like any other institution - that need adjusting with changing circumstances. Ayatollah Mutahhari wrote a good essay on that a few decades ago and it is published in English in the book on the marja'iyyah _The Most Learned of the Shi'a_. (If you haven't read it) There is no reason not to continually re-evaluate this instituton to improve it.

However, your crticisms need to be based on solid information not guesswork. You started off asking for accounts and now are assuming there is fraud. That is not a conclusion; that is suspicon, and as the Qur'an says, 'some suspicions are sins.' Did you really expect a random member of ShiaChat to give you accounts? And now that no one has, you are deciding that they are frauds?

The marja's are also not all the same person. There are over 20 maraji' now. Not all of them live in Iraq. You need to keep that in mind as you are doing your analysis. Can you even name 10 prominent marja's? If not, then don't draw sweeping conclusions about all of them.

Finally, you seem to have some deep seated anger...... try to distance yourself from that a bit as you are dealing with these subjects. Emotions often cloud our judgment.

[Gypsy]

(salam)

This question has been asked before. Please contact his office to find out how they are spent.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

The disclosure of the accounts is only if you are a registered charity in this country otherwise there is no obligation. The alternative it is if you are doing business then you have to disclose your accounts given the company mechanism.

The offices of the Marjas do not qualify as either hence they are under no obligation to disclose their accounts publically.

In regards to the centres or the communities across UK you can find the disclosure of the Khums and its expenditure in their accounts published yearly, such is the case in most if not all the Khoja Communities across the UK. And if the centres or the organisations are collecting khums themselves per the ijaza of a marja then they are liable because they are using the khums money within their centre or organisation.

lol trust the khojas to do the smart thing, i was thinking more about punjabis ;)

[husainshahid]

Brother HusainShahid,

I think I understand your concerns. However, please keep in mind:

* Following a particular marja' is voluntary and no one is forcing anyone to follow Ayatollah Seestani or to pay khums to him.

* Going to hawzah and wearing a turban and being part of a family of ulama does not make someone a marja'. You are underestimating the intellectual work necessary to reach that stage. It might be able to make someone a neighborhood preacher (even though it shouldn't) but not a marja'. Marja's aren't even just Ayatullahs; it takes a combination of factors to reach that level including intellectual ability, dedication, sacrifice, and educational opportunity.

Yes it is generally true that people born to families whose parents can give them religious education from an early age and born in the centers of religious learning (eg Najaf, Qum) have a greater chance of becoming a marja' due to their increased educational opportunities. That's just a reality of life, just like children of doctors who are raised in a community with a good school and who can afford to go to university have an increased chance of becoming doctors. However one difference with religious scholarship is that if someone is truly dedicated, even if they are poor they can go to hawzah and be supported by the system, especially if they are talented. And many of our greatest ulama lived in poverty.

And if you feel that strongly about what you are saying... the door is open. You can dedicate yourself to that study; you probably have more resources than any of the maraji' did. Nowadays you can get hawzah classes on CD-ROM, there are boatloads of printed books, etc. It's easier than it was in the past. Perhaps after twenty or so years of hard work you might gets omewhere near that level of scholarship.

But if you're not willing to do that.... well, as they say, talk is cheap. It's easy to criticize, and hard to buckle down and do hard work. So if you aren't willing to do that, think before you speak and make sure you aren't just talking the talk but unwilling to walk the walk.

If you are concerned about what Ayatollah Seestani is doing, why not visit him and say so. He is extremely busy, and also aged, but he is not inaccessible. That is more beneficial than just typing in BIG LETTERS on ShiaChat. Typing on ShiaChat is the easy way out. If you feel that strongly, go do something about it.

Yes there are issues with the institution of marja'iyyah - just like any other institution - that need adjusting with changing circumstances. Ayatollah Mutahhari wrote a good essay on that a few decades ago and it is published in English in the book on the marja'iyyah _The Most Learned of the Shi'a_. (If you haven't read it) There is no reason not to continually re-evaluate this instituton to improve it.

However, your crticisms need to be based on solid information not guesswork. You started off asking for accounts and now are assuming there is fraud. That is not a conclusion; that is suspicon, and as the Qur'an says, 'some suspicions are sins.' Did you really expect a random member of ShiaChat to give you accounts? And now that no one has, you are deciding that they are frauds?

The marja's are also not all the same person. There are over 20 maraji' now. Not all of them live in Iraq. You need to keep that in mind as you are doing your analysis. Can you even name 10 prominent marja's? If not, then don't draw sweeping conclusions about all of them.

Finally, you seem to have some deep seated anger...... try to distance yourself from that a bit as you are dealing with these subjects. Emotions often cloud our judgment.

As Salam Alaykum

10 Marjas off the top of my head:

Sistani

Khamenei

Ruhani

Sharoodi

Fadhlallah (controversial)

Najafi (controversial)

Shirazi (son of senior)

Gulpaygani

Gulpaygani (Safi)

Mukarrim Shirazi

Voila.

I think there are 32 marjas in fact, in itself a fascinating phenomenon given the fact that in 1970 there was one.

I am not saying there is fraud. We will have to wait till any accounts surface.

But yes, you have said what I did not fully appreciate myself - I am angry. I think I am realising it now, I am angry with myself. And I am angry for having really respected these marjas (well most of them apart from those condemned by Syed Khomeini (ra) who I still really respect) for over 35 years and defended them and continually found excuses for them when certain Shias used to criticise them. A lot of those guys, maybe most of those guys, who were criticising them did not argue at their best as they were not well-educated. There was also a lot of hearsay. However I know that a lot of criticisms were correct even if they weren't being phrased in the best english or well-researched because I went and did the research myself like i am trying to begin on this Thread.

Of my views? Well I realise the Marjas are not what I thought they were for decades. I can't go into it as my aim is not be divisive on this Thread - some people would be hurt by the evidences I can produce so I am steering clear - but my views are not based on hearsay - though the evidences do apply to a great number of marjas, probably most of these currently alive. And i have thought about them in great depth and done a lot of research on it. That's all that's necessary. So let's move on.

My only issue at present is to what degree I see their imperfections as existing. I find it hard to accept them warts and all as my leaders. But if it's okay to walk away from them, as seems to be the trend in what people are advising (including people who clearly respect them like you) then I think that is what I feel to be the direction I am going in. I was under the mistaken apprehension that taqlid was obligatory so thank you for clarifying its optional.

Let me explain dear Sister Bint Al Hoda how I feel in even greater depth. On one marja's website (I think it was Sharoudi) he has given permission to mix and match fatwas from different marjas (and he does not mention having to do ehtiyat / precaution of following the strictest verdict). Great! Maybe I'll do that - Akhbarism still does not appeal to me even if Usoolism seems to be misunderstood by many of its practitioners . But , bearing in mind what this marja has said about the pick and mix option, is it not astonishing? I suspect you are probably a more mature contributor than some on this site, like me in fact. Do you remember that just 5 or 10 years ago not to confine one's taqleed to one Marja was a big no no in the Usuli world, and if you picked and mixed you had to do ehtiyat - no longer it seems! In fact this change in how we are allowed to do taqlid (and others like going from 1 to 32 marjas in almost as many years) underlines to me the virtual obscenity of how something as profound as how to follow the Shariah has through the verdicts of the Marjas become as fickle as the fashion trends on the catwalks of Milan and New York!

Lets see what comes out on the Thread...looks like no one actually knows including those who clearly do taqlid, the whole khums issue seems to be a big black hole, a mystery.

Ah well, I was hoping I wouldn;t have to write to them, I am so busy as it is. I'll start enquiries by word of mouth from their reps and if that doesn;t help write. I'll keep people posted on what I find. Meanwhile, if anyone has information let me have it please.

Wa Salam

[husainshahid]

(salam)

This question has been asked before. Please contact his office to find out how they are spent.

As Salam Alaykum

Thank you. What did they say?

You clearly seem to have some practical 'inside' information. Did they produce accounts? If not why not?

If you can't remember the details did they produce any accounts?

Wa Salam

[BintAlHoda]

Voila.......them warts and all as my leaders.... as fickle as the fashion trends on the catwalks of Milan and New York!

Enough game playing please. This is a serious issue and you are making a mockery of it.

I personally will not engage in a discussion without someone who is not demonstrating seriousness and respect.

[Gypsy]

As Salam Alaykum

Thank you. What did they say?

You clearly seem to have some practical 'inside' information. Did they produce accounts? If not why not?

If you can't remember the details did they produce any accounts?

Wa Salam

(salam)

He gave me some information. High level information on how the khums money is generally spent. When I asked, it was way before 2002. Way before Iraq was liberated from Saddam.

I can't really tell you in general how each marja spent the khums money.

I don't have any excel spreadsheet or pie chart. If you are really interested then you should really get in touch with his office. They would know the best.

[Orion]

(bismillah)

@husainshahid

Whats with the CAPS?

Is it that when you dont have any arguments left you resort to shouting? What happened to the "good guy" attitude we saw in your first post. Now all what is left is your Vomit of Hate against scholars.

EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT. MOST OF SYED SISTANI'S FOLLOWERS ARE INDIAN OR PAKISTANI. HE HAS NOT EVEN BOTHERED TO VSIIT THESE COUNTRIES. IT IS A PUBLIC RELATIONS DISASTER. THE POPE VISITS THE POOR IN ALL COUNTRIES. SYED SISTANI IS NOT A POPE BUT HE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO OFFER MODERN LEADERSHIP. HE NEEDS TO TAKE LESSONS ON HOW TO BEHAVE AS A MODERN LEADER. IN THIS JET AGE IT TAKES 2 HOURS FROM BASRA TO KARACHI OR LAHORE AND TO THE MAJORITY OF HIS FOLLOWERS IN PAKISTAN AND INDIA, BUT HE DOES NOT, AND THERE IS NO SADDAM TO OFFER AS AN EXCUSE NOW. COMPARE THAT TO THE POPE, THE DALAI LAMA, ETC ETC.

How do you know that majority of his followers are from India and Pakistan.......proof????

Actually you need a lesson how to behave.

Ayatullah Sistani has a lot of responsibilities in Iraq where thousands of Shia are being killed. He is doing a good job.

Pakistan is in a mess due to its own doing. You cant blame it on the Marjas. And Importing a Marja from Iraq is not the solution. Pakistani Shis will have to put their act togather.

YOUR BELIEF THEY DO NOT NEED TO PRODUCE ACCOUNTS SUGGESTS THEY ARE INCAPABLE OF MAKING ERRORS - HENCE INFALLIBLE.

Faulty chain of thought based on pure speculation on your part. Qiyas is haram in Shia school.

THEY PROVIDE SERVICES AT A GREAT PRICE - KHUMS, IMMENSE STATUS, POWER, PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND FOR THEM, IN MANY CASES THERE ARE POLITICAL PERKS FOR THEIR FAMILY

Wata Izu mantasha wa to Zilo mantasha.

God gives respect to whomever He Wishes and God gives disrespect to whomever He Wishes.

- IRAQ IS CONTROLLED BY 3 FAMILIES OF CLERICS - THE SADR CLAN, THE KHOEI CLAN AND THE HAKIM CLAN. OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE NAMES ON TV. IS THIS NEPOTISM? TO US IN THE WEST IT SEEMS THAT WAY, TO THEM IN IRAQ IT IS A CULTURAL HERITAGE TO GIVE POWER TO YOUR TRIBESMEN AMONGST THE ARABS. ONCE AGAIN, MANY MARJAS SEEM VERY PARTIAL TO THESE LITTLE HUMAN TENDENCIES.

They are doing something for Iraq and thats why you hear their name on TV.

ON THE OTHER HAND SYED KHOMEINI WAS NOT - BUT MOST OF THEM ARE NOT KHOMEINIS, THOUGH THEIR FOLLOWERS LIKE TO TAKE THE KHOMEINOI GLITTER AND SPREAD IT AS FAR AND WIDE ACROSS THE INSTITUTION OF MARJAIYAT AS POSSIBLE.

Yes, love the dead and hate the living.

WHERE THE ISSUE OF RUNNING THE COUNTRY CAME INTO THIS DEBATE FROM I DON'T KNOW. HALF THE MARJAS BELIEVE THEY RULE, THE OTHER HALF BELIEVE THEY DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO RULE. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY. IT'S ALSO ABOUT POWER.

Its about how to best serve the nation. And what is their religious responsibility.

THEY HAVE.

Shows your lack of willingness to learn.

IRAQ IN SMITHEREENS, GO TO INDIA AND PAKISTAN AND SEE POOR SHIAS ON STREET CORNERS, SHIAS BLOWN TO KINGDOM COME IN PAKISTAN. EXCELLENT JOB! CONTRADICTORY FATWAS. INCREASING DISILLUSIONMENT WITH THE MULLAS, INCLUDING ULEMA CONDEMNING THEIR OWN.

MARJAS SAYING THAT OTHER MARJAS WILL BURN IN HELL UNLESS THEY REPENT, ISSUING HOUSE ARREST ORDERS ON EACH OTHER, CONDEMNING EACH OTHER. PLEASE VISIT THE BIOGRAPHIES OF MEN LIKE SYED KHOMEINI , SYED KHAMENEI, MESSRS MONTAZERI AND SHARIATMADARI AND SYED SHIRAZI. MANY OF THESE MEN HAVE BEEN AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS, CONDEMING EACH OTHER AS MASSIVE DEVIANTS, AND PUTTING EACH OTHER HOUSE ARREST. BUT TO THE AYATOLLATERS THESE MEN ARE ALL JUST SAINTLY SANTA CLAUSES - A VERY SIMILAR MENTAL ATTITUDE THAT THE SUNNIS HAVE ABOUT THE SAHABA IS HELD BY AYATOLLATERS ABOUT THESE MEN - LIKE THE SAHABA THEY TOO HATE EACH OTHER BUT LIKE IN SUNNI ISLAM YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMMENT ON THIS AND MUST LOVE THEM ALL.

All the names you have taken are surely much better than you and me. They were great scholars but may have erred as they are not Infallible. That does not mean you could exploit their differences. May Allah's curse be on Ulema hatters.

1. ARE MARJAS GUILTY OF FINANCIAL FRAUD? NO, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SEEN THEIR ACCOUNTS. SINCE THEY ARE SELF-APPOINTED LAWGIVERS, IF ONE WAS A FRAUDSTER HE WILL PROBABLY ALSO PASS A FATWA EXONERATING HIMSELF OF FRAUD IF FOUND GUILTY.

What good their accounts be for a person who hates them so much?

2. DO THEY HAVE PALACES AND CASTLES? WHO NEEDS A CASTLE WHEN YOU RULE OVER THE WHOLE OF PERSIA? THEY ARE LORD AND MASTER OVER WHOLE COUNTRIES AND IN NEXTDOOR IRAQ ARE LINING UP TO BE PRESIDENTS AND MINISTERS. INCIDENTALLY I SEE NO REAL ISSUE WITH SYED KHAMENEI RULING POLITICALLY. MAY GOD GUIDE HIM. I AM SIMPLY PICKING UP ON YOUR NAIVETY.

This is the root of your problem. People are jealous of their influence and authority. The whole west is baffled why do shia listen to their Marja so much. Why do Shia come out in Millions when Ayatullah Sistani gives a call. Why do Shia rally around Ayatullah Khamene'i and listen to each word he says. And thats why they come up with plots to saw doubts in the mind of the followers.

3. GOLD AND SILVER FOR THEIR SUCCESSORS? DEAR BROTHER, THE ULEMA THEMSELVES BOAST THAT SYED KHOMEINI WAS SUCH A GOOD REFORMER THAT HE WAS THE FIRST MARJA IN LIVING MEMORY TO GIVE HIS KHUMS STOCKPILE TO HIS SUCCESSOR AS MARJA (SYED KHAMENEI) AND NOT HIS SONS. MOST MARJAS GIVE THE TRUST FOR THEIR 'GOLD AND SILVER' (KHUMS) TO THEIR BLOOD SONS NOT THEIR RELIGIOUS SUCCESSORS. THIS IS A SHOCKING FACT. DID THE LATE SYED KHOEI'S KHUMS STOCKPILE GO TO SYED SISTANI WHO WAS SYED KHOEI'S SUCCESSOR? NO, IT WENT TO THE KHOEI BOYS. NOW THERE MAY BE POLITICAL REASONS FOR THAT AS SADDAM WAS IN CHARGE, BUT HE IS NO LONGER THERE AND THE MONEY IS STILL WITH THE KHOEI CLAN. I'M NOT ALLEGING MALPRACTICE THERE, MAY GOD GUIDE THEM, BUT IT IS ALL REALLY WEIRD HOW VAST SUMS GIVEN TO A MARJA 20 YEARS LATER IS IN THE TRUST OF HIS SONS.

Wrong again. Ayatullah Khomeini (Rehmatullah Alleh) was succeeded by Ayatullah Araki. And when Ayatullah Araki died, Ayatullah Gulpaigani became the Marja. Ayatullah Khamene'i came very late in the picture.

THERE SEEMS A GREAT DEAL OF CULTURAL BACKWARDNESS IN MANY OF THE MARJAS. YES, THEY HAVE STUDIED. SO HAVE MANY PEOPLE. CERTAIN MENTALITIES DON'T CHANGE EVEN MANY YEARS AFTER MIGRATION. IN FACT IT CAN BE ARGUED THAT IN ONE SENSE MANY OF THESE MEN ARE LIKE VILLAGE ELDERS WHO HAPPENED TO BE IN TOWNS LIKE NAJAF AND KARBALA AND QOM AND FROM WHERE OWING TO THE STATUS OF THE TOWNS THEIR STATUS GOT MAGNIFIED. IT'S THE SAME IN INDIA, PAKISTAN AND NORTH AFRICA WITH THE SUFI MASTERS IN THE PROMINENT SUFI TOWN CENTRES. MOST HAVE RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE, WEAR DISTINGUISHING CLOTHES, AND HAVE PEOPLE GIVE THEM MONEY JUST LIKE THE MARJAS. CULTURALLY BOTH THE SUFI SAINTS AND THE MARJAS DISPLAY TRAITS OF THE TRADITIONAL TRIBAL / VILLAGE ELDERS, WHICH IS NOT SURPRISING BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR CULTURAL BACKGROUND. NOW IS THE FAULT OURS OR THEIRS FOR EXPECTING SO MUCH OF THEM? HAVE CERTAIN SHIAS MADE THE MARJAS INTO ICONS - SOMETHING THEY JUST ARE NOT? IF SO I AM PROUD TO BE CALLED AN ICONOCLAST.

More speculation and hate vomit.

BROTHER MY ADVICE IS TO BE MORE DISCERNING WITH THE MARJAS. LOOK AT AN INDIVIDUAL REALISTICALLY. I THINK SYED KHOEMINI WAS GREAT AND IS UNRIVALLED SINCE. BUT I DO NOT TRANSFER THAT RESPECT FOR SYED KHOMEINI TO THE INSTITUTION OF MARJAIYAT - THAT I LEAVE TO THE AYATOLLATERS. I RESPECT MANY OF SYED SISTANI'S FATWAS, BUT NOT ALL, AND THINK HE SHOULD GO AND VISIT PEOPLE LIKE A MODERN RELIGIOUS LEADER SHOULD. I USED TO GIVE THE IRAQI MARJAS THE EXCUSE OF BEING UNDER THE THUMB OF SADDAM, BUT NOW WITH TEH SHIAS IN CONTROL THEY STILLDO NOT BOTHER TO VISIT THE SHIAS MASSES.

Again, love the dead...hate the living.

NOW OUR DEAR IMAM ALI (as) VISITED THE POOR ORPHANS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND GAVE THEM FOOD, THESE SUPPOSED 'NAIB-E-IMAMS' SIT IN AIR-CONDITIONED ROOMS COLLECTING KHUMS EXPECTING PEOPLE TO VISIT THEM INSTEAD. NOT ONE OF NOTE HAS BOTHERED TO EVEN VISIT THE POOR SHIA MASSES IN THE SUBCONTINENT WHERE MOST POOR SHIAS LIVE. I DON'T SEE THE TRAITS OF A DEPUTY OF THE IMAMS THERE. DO YOU?

Go to Iraq and see what arrangements are being made for the poor. How many are fed everyday.

MY VIEW AS AN USULI REALIST AND NOT AN AYATOLLATER IS THAT THESE MEN ARE DOCTORS OF THE LAW. ANYONE WHO HAS STUDIED DESERVES SOME FORM OF RESPECT, AFTER ALL THE HOLY PROPHET (SAWS) SAID SEEK KNOWLEDGE EVEN IN CHINA. BUT THAT IS WHERE MY LOVE AFFAIR WITH THE MARJAS ENDS. WORTHY OF ADORATION THEY ARE NOT, WORTHY OF CONSULTING THEY MAY BE, BUT CHOOSE CAREFULLY, VERY CAREFULLY ESPECIALLY AS WE PERHAPS ENTER THE DARK AGES BEFORE THE RISING OF THE 12TH IMAM (ATF). FOR THE TRADITIONS EXPLICITLY SAY IN THE DARK AGES THE ULEMA WILL NOT BE GUIDED. AS IDEALISTS PEOPLE HAVE SUPPOSED THAT MEANS SUNNI ULEMA, BUT AS REALISTS IF WE GO BACK TO THE WORDS OF THE HADITH IT DOES NOT SAY SUNNI ULEMA. IT SAYS ULEMA. ANYHOW I'M NOT GOING INTO THOSE AREAS IN MORE DEPTH AS IT WOULD REQUIRE A SEPARATE THREAD.

Disrespect continues.

BUT DON'T FOR ONE MINUTE DELUDE YOURSELF THAT BEING RAISED IN A MARJA'S FAMILY AND ATTENDING CLASSES IN A HOWZA, PUTTING ON A GOWN AND CAPE, MAKES YOU A SAINT. JUTS LIKE ATTENDING MARTIAL ARTS LESSONS AND DRESSING UP AS BATMAN DOESN'T MAKE YOU A SUPERHERO, NOR DOES STUDYING AT A RELIGIOUS SEMINARY THEN PUTTING ON A CLOAK AND A TURBAN MAKE YOU A SAINT.

Keep vomiting.

May Allah's curse be on Ulema hatters.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Orion

[Orion]

(salam)

He gave me some information. High level information on how the khums money is generally spent. When I asked, it was way before 2002. Way before Iraq was liberated from Saddam.

I can't really tell you in general how each marja spent the khums money.

I don't have any excel spreadsheet or pie chart. If you are really interested then you should really get in touch with his office. They would know the best.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Thank you Zareen for the information. It proves that Marja do keep accounts of how Khums money is spent. But releasing the details may cause harm to Shia individuals and organizations. Also such accounts mean nothing when someones heart is filled with hate and mis-information.

Our Imam (ATF) directed us to the Fuqha of our time. Among them are pious people who are serving the nation day and night. May Allah bless them all.

WS

[OzZiE]

Sallams

This is a brilliant example why we will not progress and please let’s forgot about helping the Imam of our time (atf). When the aim of this topic was to discuss a valid issue we instead descend into name-calling, finger pointing, backhanded jibes and above all invoking the wrath of Allah onto each other. What are we thinking when we read out dua faraj? Is it simply lip-service for the angels to witness?

Br husainshahid, your last post was unnecessary, you should have got someone to proof read your post before sending, looks like frustration and anger got to the better of you.

Br Orion, just as much as husainshahid post was unnecessary so was your invocation for the wrath of Allah! Your sentiments on the importance of the ulema is spot on but a healthy debate on such issues is still necessary without the invocations, this only further alienates individuals.

I for one like to put myself 1400 years ago and see how such an event would have played out, if an individual went up to the Prophet or Imams asking what is happening to the state treasury? Firstly, we have no need to worry about corruption (re Imam Ali's punishment of Aqeel). Secondly, the manner in which they would speak to the people would be dignified and with the utmost respect and integrity. They would be transparent and willing to answer all questions. Now, we don't live in those times, that was utopia, however we have a responsibility and accountability to the money we give. Irrespective if its so and so or sheikh x or ayatollah y or charity z, you as the individual handing over x currency have a responsibility that it's going to a good/just/appropriate cause. Allah (swt) will make us accountable for this, hence the importance of having processes and documentation etc.

Please can we keep this debate alive without the nasties.

[Orion]

(bismillah)

The invocation for the wrath of Allah is only for those who disrespect scholars. If someone does not disrespect, he should not worry.

Also there could be no discussion as long as the disrespect of scholars continues. Period.

WS

[Maula Dha Mallang]

isnt khums liable to be taxed in the uk, since its an income, no matter if theyre a charity or business or sole trader, we all have to pay taxes on income, we all know that dont we?

do marjas pay tax on it? is that legal?

[husainshahid]

As Salam Alaykum

[i have returned from being banned]

I intend to be brief.

One sentence...1000 thoughts.

Regarding the very severe differences I higlighted between the senior ulema who have fought each other - Ur reply was so predictable - it was:

"All the names you have taken are surely much better than you and me. They were great scholars but may have erred as they are not Infallible. That does not mean you could exploit their differences. May Allah's curse be on Ulema hatters [sic]."

STOP. REFLECT. Now supplant

"scholars" with "sahaba",

and "Ulama hatters [sic]" with "Shias"

and you could be a character out of 1001 wahabi websites defending the sahaba or corrupt companions of Muhammad (saws). The style of your defence of the ulema is EXACTLY that of the sunnis who out of idealism try to fend off criticism of the sahaba by the ahl ul bayt (as) and their Shia.

Perhaps this analogy wil cause you to reflect on your psyche and the serious implications ayatollatry has for the soul and its misguidance. And I was an usuli, I packed it in in the last few days totally after following the marjas for almost 40 years and defending them for most of my youth against attacks, always giving them the benefit of the doubt. How could I have been so gullible? It was called idealism. We were made to see what the ulema and popular shia culture wanted us to see. In our gullibility (which was manipulated by the priests and their systems) we failed to recognise why the Imam (atf) was in ghaibat. Could it be he is angered by the self-styled ayatullahs (a title incidentally in the quran used for the Imams themselves) and their cult of ayatollatry? The odd good marja may be found ( a la Syed Khomeini) but I have deep reservations about this institution and how it is devolving. I always look cynically when money and power and control are factors at play, all 3 are found in the marjaiyat.

I' m still investigating the khums issue. I am not convinced by akhbarism either and follow a middle path, a path of realism. Idealism is only for how I look up to the Imams (as)

Now of course we need experts on religious laws, just like we need them on every field of human life e.g. medicine, accountancy, engineering, but where else does that translate into sainthood? Exploiting people's desire for islam is not right if you are propelling your own self-interest alongside the guidance you offer, for in the end (as has happened) owing to duality of interest the guidance that is given by the ulema may become based upon the duality of interest (money, power, etc). The ulema are to be used just like researchers in other fields are. Put them in their place for their own good as power corrupts. Ayatollatry is not for me. I'll disagree with what they say on religious laws from time to time just as I can disagree with some old judge's verdict on an issue - and since when does anyone call them saints, though they dress up just like their islamic brothers in profession with gowns and rituals just like those of the socalled 'scholars of islamic law /fiqh (ie marjas) '.

Wa Salam

Edited November 13, 2009 by husainshahid

[Awakened]

Orion, do you deny Khums is inherited by families of Uluma or at least use to be?

I want to know if you deny this...

Then the question is how much "inheritance" should be inherited by their heirs (as in family?)?

What do you think is reasonable?

And why is it that we should send it to a Marjaa to start off with? What does knowledge of laws have to do with how the money should be spent?

[husainshahid]

(bismillah)

The invocation for the wrath of Allah is only for those who disrespect scholars. If someone does not disrespect, he should not worry.

Also there could be no discussion as long as the disrespect of scholars continues. Period.

WS

As Salam Alaykum

It seems criticism of the object of their devotion and sacred adoration is perceived as disrespect by Ayatollaters.

Wa Salam

[Awakened]

The invocation for the wrath of Allah is only for those who disrespect scholars.

Then you should not expect Sunnis not to Curse Shias...you have the same policy, someone offends your heroes and whom you think are so high, so you curse whom disrespects them...Sunnis do the same...then you should say they should curse you because of their love and respect of companions... or will it just come down to "we are right" and "they are wrong" justifying it?

And odd thing almost eery single person following a Marjaa, has disrespect for other Majaas...

Whether to Syed Fathlallah, or Khamanei, or Sherazi, or Sistani, or others not so well known but say controversial things (like Marjaas in Iraq, some spoke firmly against Sistani but they are not as famous as the ones everyone will defend till their blue)

So almost all Shias disrespect some Scholars (depending on their type of thinking) but you want to curse him because of his over all generalization?

Everyone will be judged by God...

I wish as much as possible that our scholars would be as you make them out to be, but my experience has given me another conclusion, so don't have this high respect you have for the overwhelming majority of Sunni and Shia scholars, past and present...

Everyone doesn't like it....

Sufis hate it when their leaders are belittled..

Shias hate when their specific line of thinking scholars are belittled and some hate it in general (few people, most just tend to respect their line of thinking type of scholars).

Sunnis as well...

Salafis as well...

This how they all are...

Having some right beliefs or even all right beliefs won't make that your scholars are truly high and unlike the other scholars of other sects...

Today Salafi Scholars are hated for Takfeer, something our Classical scholars did and would do even to people whom believed in 12 Imams (as)...

If you hate it so much, then why do you accept as ok in your scholar? You see it so ugly that Ibn Taymiya calls us disbelievers (and does the exception, layman whom don't know thing as well) and curse him for it, but if a scholar of ours goes all out to every single sect condemning them to hell and disbelief, you don't see it as ugly at all? Your not seeing your double vision...

Edited November 13, 2009 by Awakened

[iraqi_shia]

thats no doubt true bro, but lets say theres only 10,000 of khums paying people going through the al khoei centre in the uk alone, which is pretty low considering the 404 jaloos on its own has a minimum of 2 - 3000 people every year who show up, and thats not even in london.

1/5th of the eligable money would equal many hundreds of thousands of pounds in the uk alone, so i was expecting that to reflect in the accounts but its not?

having said that, i didnt know about agha sistani allowing people to use their khums on their own projects until very recently, ive always assumed that it all goes into one big pot and no one sees or hears from it ever again.

You would think that. The Islamic Centre in maida vale is probably the biggest shia centre in the UK, you would be shocked at the khums they receive, its basically nothing. I spoke to a scholar there about it and he said theres issues with the people that should pay (and basically dont) and also with the scholar side, for example everyone should get a receipt, something they said they were going to do from now on.

He did claim the accounts were published at the centre yearly. I can not see why they have not or dont, other than the fact that it would shame the community.

[Haji 2003]

So, why are you asking us this? Why not get in communication with the offices yourself and see what you might find?

Both of Sis Bint al Hoda's answers have dealt with the issues raised in the OP - if they had been sincerely asked. They were not. The OP clearly has *issues* and wants a platform.

[guest 34193]

Both of Sis Bint al Hoda's answers have dealt with the issues raised in the OP - if they had been sincerely asked. They were not. The OP clearly has *issues* and wants a platform.

Yeah, I got that by his dropping of "Ayatollaters" and the rest of that.

[husainshahid]

Orion, do you deny Khums is inherited by families of Uluma or at least use to be?

I want to know if you deny this...

Then the question is how much "inheritance" should be inherited by their heirs (as in family?)?

What do you think is reasonable?

And why is it that we should send it to a Marjaa to start off with? What does knowledge of laws have to do with how the money should be spent?

As Salam Alakum

Clarity. Yes, Orion, please tell people how does being a legal expert translate into being a tax collector? What's the evidence for this beyond the declarations of the people who collect the tax?

In what other society does the judge also act as the taxman?

In all transparent societies there exists what is known as a separation of powers wherein the executive and the judiciary are separate entities. This minimises the scope for corruption.

In islam this unified judge-taxman system is not even regulated or subject to audit ! At best it needs to be broght up to date.

Wa Salam

[alial1234]

Actually it does. The success of Shias in Iran, Iraq and Lebanon is proof itself.

It was Hazrat Khatija's (as) money that helped Islam in its early days. And its Khums money that is helping it now.

(bismillah) (salam)

Yes, giving money to one marja so he can kill the other, ha i don't trust these marjas one bit.

When they ask you for 20%, give them 10%, you give the remaining amount yourself, so you know where it goes.

(wasalam)

Edited November 13, 2009 by alial1234

[Awakened]

(bismillah) (salam)

Yes, giving money to one marja so he can kill the other, ha i don't trust these marjas one bit.

When they ask you for 20%, give them 10%, you give the remaining amount yourself, so you know where it goes.

(wasalam)

You see here is proof for some of my points I made...

He prolly has tons of respect for Sherazi and that Sherazi has a towering height in his mind, but he belittles Khamanei and scholars with him...

Other people look down up scholars of "Irfan"...

Others with other scholars..

Khums is a corruption on earth, it brings more harm then good in the way it's being used. (and the foundation of it is false and an insincerity to Quran that has replaced the Zakat foundation which has become just applicable to 1% of the Muslims to be oliged to perform or even less (and that Zakat fitri is nothing))

Edited November 13, 2009 by Awakened

[Haji 2003]

isnt khums liable to be taxed in the uk, since its an income, no matter if theyre a charity or business or sole trader, we all have to pay taxes on income, we all know that dont we?

do marjas pay tax on it? is that legal?

This answer refers to the situation in the UK.

If the person receiving the khums is a registered charity, they don't have to pay tax. In fact they can claim the tax (from HMRC*) that has been paid by the donor as well. For people on PAYE, there is actually a system known as GAYE (Give as you Earn).

The people administering this will take money directly from your monthly payslip and pass it onto the charity(ies) of your choice and the amount they will handover will be the amount you gave as well as the tax you paid on that. They take a small monthly administration fee in order to do this. It's all HMRC compliant.

Obviously the charities in question have to be registered with the charities commission etc.

If people are interested/willing to make a little bit of effort on their own account, they can pay khums in a tax efficient way and one which can satisfy their own needs in terms of the money being spent on worthy causes. The problems arise when self-appointed policemen decide that the entire institution is beyond redemption.

Personally I think there are one of two explanations for such behaviour. These people are either stupid or mean. Sorry my mistake, they can of course be stupid and mean.

*HMRC = Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs (UK tax authorities)

Edited November 13, 2009 by Haji 2003

[Marbles]

As Salaam Alaykum

I am an open-minded nominal Usuli shia. I consider myself a realist and not an idealist when it comes to my attitudes about the ulema and their dictates. We have a responsibility to be responsible when we comes to who to trust, as the marjas themselves say. I am not an Akhbari. In fact I guess most of the silent majority of shias are like me.

I am continually searching for the best marja whose views to consult as is our responsibility according to the marjas.

One of the most important self-declared jobs of the Marjas is as self-appointed tax collectors they take 20% of our excess money which is the compulsory Khums tax previously taken by the Imams themselves. I was hoping someone could let me know how I view the accounts of the Marjas for khums income and expenditure. After all the religious tax accounts in the case of the big marjas amount to at least tens-hundreds of millions dollars of annual tax paid to them by their followers who recognise them as self-declared representatives (naib-e-Imam) of the 12th Imam (as) per year.

I have tried many websites but can't find even the basic accounts I need. This is a very major issue.

Apparently we need to be satisfied before giving Khums that it is being spent appropriately. Even if we do not have the funds to give Khums we should satisfy ourselves that the Marja collecting Khums has transparent accounting practices.

Surely there must be accounts as with any one collecting astronomical sums of money in trust.

Can someone show me how to find out how last year's khums was spent by the different marjas, even just a basic breakdown. Can anyone help me in this enquiry? Thanks.

Wa Salam

We have an option in Usooli Shi'ism to do ehtiyat in matters of jurisprudence. This means you do not follow one particular individual and therefore not obligated to pay them your khums. You distribute it for the cause as you see fit.

[Awakened]

If you desire I can give you a third example of Dawud (p.b.u.h.). He is the holder of the Psalms and the reciter among the people of Paradise. He used to prepare baskets of date palm leaves with his own hands and would say to his companions: "Which of you will help me by purchasing it?" He used to eat barley bread (bought) out of its price. - Imam Ali (as) Nahjul balagha

Dawood (as) was a Caliph and would not take people's TAXes to each bread....

These supposed inheritors of the Prophets (as) ofcoruse are excempt from the rule "follow those whom ask you no wage and they themselves are guided"...

Nuh (as) "I ask you no wealth..."

And if a person ruling them uses wealth for himself, it's understandable because of the task of government....but even that, the Anbiya (as) and Imams (as) showed we will have nothing to do with people's wealth, we will use it for God's cause only, we will work even while we serve the people for our money, so you know we ask of you no money, none of your world, rather zakat for us has been compleletly forbidden entirely - so there is no money to purify yourself with to be given to us, because we will have nothing to do with that.

You would expect inheritors of the Prophets (as) to have the same stance right?

But this thing of learning some laws by a system making you entitled to money of people is garbage...

Imam Baqir (as) would be working on a farm and when criticized for "chasing this world" told the idiot that he does this not to rely on people's money, (and that Sufi probably was relying on money in his Tariqa or whatever)...

This is exploitation of money, we read in Quran how many scholars ate of people's money and took them without speading in God's way... You really think God in his Wisdom would open this door of corruption again? No there was no system and instuition...

This paid by government to scholars by Sunnis.. and this Khums by Shias.. is nothing but a way to open that door of corruption.. and what we see today, the disunity, the every hizb, the sissy culture spread by them, and Zakat abandoned (only obligation is on 1%), this is patheticness...

yeah we should spend our money for the life of these people and the poor ofcourse, no obligation to them...

Even suppose there isn't this contradiction of intrepetation of khums and is not opposed to whatever knows the verse means, even then, there is no proof at all, that the share of the Imam should be part of a scholars wealth, that he uses to eat, to buy a house, etc...

At most, it could have been instituted in leadership of a nation, as in government type, but this scholars being entitled to it and it being their RISQ, is no where even in these clearly fabricated hadiths that contradict Quran (that are contradicted by other hadiths mind you that too are accepted!)... so absolutely nothing to prove it...

Edited November 14, 2009 by Awakened

[Orion]

(bismillah)

Then you should not expect Sunnis not to Curse Shias...you have the same policy, someone offends your heroes and whom you think are so high, so you curse whom disrespects them...Sunnis do the same...then you should say they should curse you because of their love and respect of companions... or will it just come down to "we are right" and "they are wrong" justifying it?

Sunnis can curse us as much as they like.....it does not effect us at all. :)

And odd thing almost eery single person following a Marjaa, has disrespect for other Majaas...

Whether to Syed Fathlallah, or Khamanei, or Sherazi, or Sistani, or others not so well known but say controversial things (like Marjaas in Iraq, some spoke firmly against Sistani but they are not as famous as the ones everyone will defend till their blue)

So almost all Shias disrespect some Scholars (depending on their type of thinking) but you want to curse him because of his over all generalization?

Everyone will be judged by God...

I dont disrespect any scholar. And I am sure there are million others like me.

I may disagree with their views, but never disrespect them.

I wish as much as possible that our scholars would be as you make them out to be, but my experience has given me another conclusion, so don't have this high respect you have for the overwhelming majority of Sunni and Shia scholars, past and present...

Everyone doesn't like it....

Sufis hate it when their leaders are belittled..

Shias hate when their specific line of thinking scholars are belittled and some hate it in general (few people, most just tend to respect their line of thinking type of scholars).

Sunnis as well...

Salafis as well...

This how they all are...

Having some right beliefs or even all right beliefs won't make that your scholars are truly high and unlike the other scholars of other sects...

Today Salafi Scholars are hated for Takfeer, something our Classical scholars did and would do even to people whom believed in 12 Imams (as)...

If you hate it so much, then why do you accept as ok in your scholar? You see it so ugly that Ibn Taymiya calls us disbelievers (and does the exception, layman whom don't know thing as well) and curse him for it, but if a scholar of ours goes all out to every single sect condemning them to hell and disbelief, you don't see it as ugly at all? Your not seeing your double vision...

The case of Shis scholars who follow Ahlul Bait (as) and those non-Shia scholars who dont cannot be the same. And even in their case there is no reason to disrespect any non-Shia scholars. And you can extend it to non-Muslim scholars too. You may disagree with them but no place for disrespect.

WS

[Orion]

Khums is a corruption on earth, it brings more harm then good in the way it's being used. (and the foundation of it is false and an insincerity to Quran that has replaced the Zakat foundation which has become just applicable to 1% of the Muslims to be oliged to perform or even less (and that Zakat fitri is nothing))

Awakened, are you Shia?

If not please disclose your school so that I can answer you accordingly.

WS

Edited November 14, 2009 by Orion