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In the Name of God بسم الله

Shia mysticism and Kufr

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Salams

I have reasearched Islamic mysticism for a while now. There seems to be a hell of a lot of it. Sufism and Ismaili Shias have esoteric beliefs that include things like apologetic and positive spins on Iblis, a belief that Unity can be achieved with Allah (astaghfurallah) and that one can with certain practices achieve divinity. Not to mention ismaili shias doctrine on "Nur" of Allah being present in a living imam and his fatwas can overide the Quran.

Now of course this kind of "we are all gods" thinking is also presnt in ghulat kafirs like Ahl e-Haqq (believe Ali is God), Alewis (also believe Ali is God), Yazidis (worship the Shaitan (seriously)).

Now b4 u say anything i am a Shia but i am worried because i have been even reading on something called Irfan that Imam Khomeini practiced. Now he seems to have mixed quite a bit with Sufis, and also apparently studied Ibn Arabi quite extensively.

Ibn Arabi was a Sufi mystic that by the muslims regarded as kafir as he claimed literally EVERYTHING was Allah. Then he concluded that we are also part of Allah (astaghfurallah). I have NO doubt about this as i have read some of his stuff and it really doesnt sound like good news at all. This stuff is again really common in esoteric, mystic, and gnostic circles in Judaism and Christianity as well

Someone PLEASE explain to me what this IRFAN that has been talked about by khomeini and tabatabai is. I am asking because its REALLLLLYYY unsettling me at the minute discovering that it seems to be a part of shia. I cannot follow anything that is kufr.

Thanks

Edited by yahossein
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Why don't you read their works and see what they say from their own mouths?

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/lubb_al_lubab/ (this is notes from 'Allamah Tabataba'i's (ra) lessons on irfan collected by his studends under the supervision of one of his top students, 'Allamah Tehrani)

http://www.al-islam.org/lwm/

What they say/do has nothing to do with the sufis and we see them criticizing the sufis many times.

wa salam

Edited by lotfilms
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Salams

I have reasearched Islamic mysticism for a while now. There seems to be a hell of a lot of it. Sufism and Ismaili Shias have esoteric beliefs that include things like apologetic and positive spins on Iblis, a belief that Unity can be achieved with Allah (astaghfurallah) and that one can with certain practices achieve divinity. Not to mention ismaili shias doctrine on "Nur" of Allah being present in a living imam and his fatwas can overide the Quran.

Now of course this kind of "we are all gods" thinking is also presnt in ghulat kafirs like Ahl e-Haqq (believe Ali is God), Alewis (also believe Ali is God), Yazidis (worship the Shaitan (seriously)).

Now b4 u say anything i am a Shia but i am worried because i have been even reading on something called Irfan that Imam Khomeini practiced. Now he seems to have mixed quite a bit with Sufis, and also apparently studied Ibn Arabi quite extensively.

Ibn Arabi was a Sufi mystic that by the muslims regarded as kafir as he claimed literally EVERYTHING was Allah. Then he concluded that we are also part of Allah (astaghfurallah). I have NO doubt about this as i have read some of his stuff and it really doesnt sound like good news at all. This stuff is again really common in esoteric, mystic, and gnostic circles in Judaism and Christianity as well

Someone PLEASE explain to me what this IRFAN that has been talked about by khomeini and tabatabai is. I am asking because its REALLLLLYYY unsettling me at the minute discovering that it seems to be a part of shia. I cannot follow anything that is kufr.

Thanks

Salaam

You want someone to explain to you what Irfan is, but since you already made a judgment about it, i dont think its worth the effort. PLease dont take that rudely. I will however say one thing, whether or not Irfan is true or false, the number one thing you should be concerned about is trying to have an open mind. Understand that there are things that, in reality, may be totally different from the way we normally think about them (especially when it comes to things that deal with the nature of God). There are only two types of people. 1) there are some people who think they know but in fact dont know. and 2) there are others who know that they dont know. There isnt a third group that knows. This is because none knows but God (extracted from the Shahadah: There is no god (knowledge) but God (The Knowledge)). The goal of human life is to realize we are ignorant and that only God knows. God, my friend,is that which does nothing but bewilders. The moment we think we understand God then that is precisely when we dont understand God. If we want to attain felicity it will have to be through God. So we need to pray to God for guidance. This is all i will say.

Take care

MK

Edited by eThErEaL
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Someone PLEASE explain to me what this IRFAN that has been talked about by khomeini and tabatabai is. I am asking because its REALLLLLYYY unsettling me at the minute discovering that it seems to be a part of shia. I cannot follow anything that is kufr.

(bismillah)

(salam)

IRFAN is high quality Ibadat (worship) that causes nearness to God, provided the methods used are according to the teachings of Ahlul Bait(AS).

Please read Munajat al-Aarfin by Imam Zain al-Abideen (as)

and Dua e Kumail that says "ya ghayata aamaal al aarifin"

and read the book "Self Building" by Ayatullah Ibrahim Amini. http://www.al-islam.org/selfbuilding/

WS

BTW, show some respect towards scholars. Learn to put something like Imam Khomeini and Allamah Tabatabai before their names.

Edited by Orion
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(salam)

Irfan (not Sufism) is the core and essence of Islam and if one pays attention to the texts they will not fail to realise this. The Noble Qur'an and Nahgul Balagha are replete with esoteric statements that are impossible to ignore. If you are serious about understanding what 'Irfan is then you're encouraged to research some proper sources, some of which are found online. Read the first four sources in particular:

Glimpses of Nahj al-Balagha by Ayatullah Murtada Mutahhari

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/glimpses

An Introduction to 'Irfan by Ayatulllah Murtada Mutahhari

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/irfan.htm

Islamic Gnosis ('Irfan) and Wisdom (Hikmat) by Ayatullah Muhammad Taqi Misbah Yazdi

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/islamic_gnosis_wisdom/

Light Within Me by Ayatullah Mutahhari, Allamah Tabataba'i, Imam Ruhollah Khomeini

http://www.al-islam.org/LWM/

The Kernels of Kernels - A Short Treatise on Wayfaring by S.M. Hussain Hussaini Tehrani

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/lubb_al_lubab/

Asrar al-Shari’ah (Inner Secrets of the Path) by Sayyid Haydar Amuli

http://www.al-islam.org/innersecretsofthepath/

Awsaf al Ashraaf (Attributes of the Noble) by Nasir al Din al-Tusi

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/awsaf/

Adab al-Suluk: A Treatise on Spiritual Wayfaring by Shaykh Najm al-Din Kubra

http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/adab_al_suluk/

Risaleh-e Sayr wa Suluk: A Treatise on Wayfaring by Bahr al-Ulum

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/sayrsuluk/

Uswat al-Aarifeen: A Look at the Life of Ayatullah Bahjat by Yasin Jibouri

http://al-islam.org/uswat_alarifin/

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(bismillah)

(salam)

IRFAN is high quality Ibadat (worship) that causes nearness to God,provided the methods used are according to the teachings of Ahlul Bait(AS).

Please read Munajat al-Aarfin by Imam Zain al-Abideen (as)

and Dua e Kumail that says "ya ghayata aamaal al aarifin"

and read the book "Self Building" by Ayatullah Ibrahim Amini. http://www.al-islam.org/selfbuilding/

WS

BTW, show some respect towards scholars. Learn to put something like Imam Khomeini and Allamah Tabatabai before their manes.

I dont understand what you mean by high quality ibadat. Isnt nearness to god someting only the ahlul bayt and prophets could possess. I have again read that Imam Khomeini used to recite poetry for 4 hours. Mystical Poetry and the like was practice by Rumi, Hafiz, Saadi and other sufis. Im not showing disrespect at all i want to get that clear, but im trying to understand what these kind of practices are doing in shia figh and whats the point of it.

And also to reply to the thing about not understanding everything. Thats very true. But the reason im sceptical about this irfan is in the huge majority of cases "hidden" or gnostic (occult) knowledge in religions has shaitans footprints on it. Again im not accusing any scholar or learned figure of such a thing. Im just struggling to find a clear distinction when im reading about gnosis and irfan between heretical irfan as they seem to overlap.

There seems to also be a concept of a Perfect man in irfan. For me this sounds a bit strange as well as how can an average guy attain a sinless (masoom) state akin to prophets.

Is irfan something that is accepted by all ulama???

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(salam)

Irfan (not Sufism) is the core and essence of Islam and if one pays attention to the texts they will not fail to realise this. The Noble Qur'an and Nahgul Balagha are replete with esoteric statements that are impossible to ignore. If you are serious about understanding what 'Irfan is then you're encouraged to research some proper sources, some of which are found online. Read the first four sources in particular:

Glimpses of Nahj al-Balagha by Ayatullah Murtada Mutahhari

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/glimpses

An Introduction to 'Irfan by Ayatulllah Murtada Mutahhari

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/irfan.htm

Islamic Gnosis ('Irfan) and Wisdom (Hikmat) by Ayatullah Muhammad Taqi Misbah Yazdi

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/islamic_gnosis_wisdom/

Light Within Me by Ayatullah Mutahhari, Allamah Tabataba'i, Imam Ruhollah Khomeini

http://www.al-islam.org/LWM/

The Kernels of Kernels - A Short Treatise on Wayfaring by S.M. Hussain Hussaini Tehrani

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/lubb_al_lubab/

Asrar al-Shari’ah (Inner Secrets of the Path) by Sayyid Haydar Amuli

http://www.al-islam.org/innersecretsofthepath/

Awsaf al Ashraaf (Attributes of the Noble) by Nasir al Din al-Tusi

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/awsaf/

Adab al-Suluk: A Treatise on Spiritual Wayfaring by Shaykh Najm al-Din Kubra

http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/adab_al_suluk/

Risaleh-e Sayr wa Suluk: A Treatise on Wayfaring by Bahr al-Ulum

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/sayrsuluk/

Uswat al-Aarifeen: A Look at the Life of Ayatullah Bahjat by Yasin Jibouri

http://al-islam.org/uswat_alarifin/

Ive just immediately come across this quote after reading the first section on 'divine unity'

Asrar al-Shari’ah (Inner Secrets of the Path) by Sayyid Haydar Amuli

`There is nothing in existence but Allah, His Names, His Attributes and His Actions. Thus everything is Him, by Him, from Him and to Him'

This is exactly what is said was written in the doctrines of Ibn Arabi and almost identical to Mansour al-Hallaj who was crucified for heresy basically because this doctine that nothing exists apart from Allah is to say everything is Allah and that means you are also a part of Allah.

May Allah guide everyone to the straight path

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Isnt nearness to god someting only the ahlul bayt and prophets could possess.

No. Allah(swt) sent them as an example for us. So we should do our best to imitate them and reach their high rank.

but im trying to understand what these kind of practices are doing in shia figh and whats the point of it.

Like I said, read their works. There have been many links posted in this topic. Read a few of them and learn a bit about irfan and Khomeini's (ra) and Tabataba'i's (ra) views from their own mouths before making generalized assumptions.

Thats very true. But the reason im sceptical about this irfan is in the huge majority of cases "hidden" or gnostic (occult) knowledge in religions has shaitans footprints on it.

If Allah(swt) opens certain doors for one of His Servants, it does not behoove that servant to go around bragging to everyone.

Again im not accusing any scholar or learned figure of such a thing. Im just struggling to find a clear distinction when im reading about gnosis and irfan between heretical irfan as they seem to overlap.

Read the links; read the source materials. If you want to learn about something, go to the source. If you want to learn about irfan, then learn it from the masters of irfan. If you want to learn about the Shia school of thought, then you learn it from Shia masters (in this case, the Imams (as)), not from takfiri salafis.

There seems to also be a concept of a Perfect man in irfan.[/quote For me this sounds a bit strange as well as how can an average guy attain a sinless (masoom) state akin to prophets.

Inshallah Allah(swt) will grant you the sabr and the iman and the discipline to try to live your life sinless. Our great scholars of irfan may not have been sinless, but at least they were close and they constantly struggled for sinlessness. It's better than not trying at all.

wa salam

Edited by lotfilms
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Ive just quoted something from one of the links above. Things can stray you off the right path so i am always going to be cautious especially with topics like this. I am also struggling to grasp the idea that you may make statements like "everything is Allah" from mere conjecture. At least Figh and islamic laws are grounded in the Quran and hadith from the imams. I appreciate philosophy but i also think there is a limit to which we should delve and explore the unseen.

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Personally, if a topic about Tauheed or Allah (swt) comes in front of me, I trust and dwell on NOTHING but what has come to us from the Masoomeen (as).

Exactly what i think. And i am actually beginning to see there is so much stuff out there that is conjecture and completely unsubstaniated. We should stick to orthodox shiism. Innovation is never good.

May Allah guide us all.

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Ive just quoted something from one of the links above. Things can stray you off the right path so i am always going to be cautious especially with topics like this. I am also struggling to grasp the idea that you may make statements like "everything is Allah" from mere conjecture. At least Figh and islamic laws are grounded in the Quran and hadith from the imams. I appreciate philosophy but i also think there is a limit to which we should delve and explore the unseen.

Listen carefully. The abilities of people to delve deep into knowledge differ greatly, and within the same people, the ability will change and develop over time as wisdom is gained. There are certain subjects that one shouldn't study until he is prepared, because if he is not prepared, he will not understand. If he does not understand, he will err in one of two basic ways, in both cases through a literal understanding of complex and subtle symbolic matters. Either he will think the very subject itself is some sort of heresy, and turn violently against it, or he will dive wholeheartedly into things, but in an extreme way that exaggerates things.

The person who is prepared, on the other hand, with some proper guidance from a fellow traveller, can understand correctly, and draw legitimate deep guidance.

But overall it is best for an individual to stay away until he is ready.

With all due respect, you do not seem ready. Set it aside for awhile. Such explorations are not necessary to the spiritual development of most average believers. If you are more ready later, the brothers have given you a number of excellent sources to refer to.

Edited by kadhim
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(bismillah)

I dont understand what you mean by high quality ibadat. Isnt nearness to god someting only the ahlul bayt and prophets could possess.

There are levels of nearness. We are talking about nearness atainable by common people and not Ahlul Bait (as)

I have again read that Imam Khomeini used to recite poetry for 4 hours. Mystical Poetry and the like was practice by Rumi, Hafiz, Saadi and other sufis. Im not showing disrespect at all i want to get that clear, but im trying to understand what these kind of practices are doing in shia figh and whats the point of it.

Imam Khomeini ate food and so did Rumi, Hafiz, Saadi and other sufis. Who said reciting poetry is haram? How can one imagine that the poetry he ricite was "evil" and not Hamd of Allah, Naat of Rasool Allah (S), Noha and Marsiyah of Imam Hussain (as). In that case it would be a form of Worship.

And also to reply to the thing about not understanding everything. Thats very true. But the reason im sceptical about this irfan is in the huge majority of cases "hidden" or gnostic (occult) knowledge in religions has shaitans footprints on it. Again im not accusing any scholar or learned figure of such a thing. Im just struggling to find a clear distinction when im reading about gnosis and irfan between heretical irfan as they seem to overlap.

How about this. When you read something, check references and see where it is coming from.

Take it if it is coming from Ahlul Bait (as) and leave it if its coming from others.

There seems to also be a concept of a Perfect man in irfan. For me this sounds a bit strange as well as how can an average guy attain a sinless (masoom) state akin to prophets.

Again there are levels of perfection. Some are for common people and other for Masoomeen (as).

Is irfan something that is accepted by all ulama???

Bro, is there anything acceptable by ALL ulema?

WS

Edited by Orion
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Listen carefully. The abilities of people to delve deep into knowledge differ greatly, and within the same people, the ability will change and develop over time as wisdom is gained. There are certain subjects that one shouldn't study until he is prepared, because if he is not prepared, he will not understand. If he does not understand, he will err in one of two basic ways, in both cases through a literal understanding of complex and subtle symbolic matters. Either he will think the very subject itself is some sort of heresy, and turn violently against it, or he will dive wholeheartedly into things, but in an extreme way that exaggerates things.

The person who is prepared, on the other hand, with some proper guidance from a fellow traveller, can understand correctly, and draw legitimate deep guidance.

But overall it is best for an individual to stay away until he is ready.

With all due respect, you do not seem ready. Set it aside for awhile. Such explorations are not necessary to the spiritual development of most average believers. If you are more ready later, the brothers have given you a number of excellent sources to refer to.

I do understand your point. However i am uneasy with principles and paths of guidance founded on the basis of testimony of men claiming an understanding of occult knowledge of Allah. There are 2 possibilitys with this. Either this hidden knowledge has been given to them directly by Allah while on their 'path'. Or they are shaitans whisperings. The belief that Allah can grant this knowledge has further problems. 1) It requires you to believe you can communicate with Allah in a way no other believer can and more importantly that Allah comes and communicates with you 2) That there is hidden knowledge that Allah will give you permission to attain that is kept back from other believers. I consider myself devout and committed however i don not underestimate the shaitans ability to misguide so I will never delve into material of this kind. I have myself read of many how have entered into this kind of thing and have stopped abruptly as they realised it is leading to deviation from Allahs message.

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Exactly what i think. And i am actually beginning to see there is so much stuff out there that is conjecture and completely unsubstaniated. We should stick to orthodox shiism. Innovation is never good.

May Allah guide us all.

What is "orthodox shiism" and what guarantee we have that its true?

I would say, stick to Quran and Ahlul Bait (as).....the command given by Rasool Allah (S).

WS

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Personally, I consider the term `irfan in this sense to simply be a cover for the importation of Sufism into our madhhab, something which our earlier `ulama would have vigorously opposed (and thankfully which a number of them today do as well). I'd suggest you stick with them and of course make the teachings of the Ahl al-Bayt (as) themselves your root.

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`There is nothing in existence but Allah, His Names, His Attributes and His Actions. Thus everything is Him, by Him, from Him and to Him'

This is exactly what is said was written in the doctrines of Ibn Arabi and almost identical to Mansour al-Hallaj who was crucified for heresy basically because this doctine that nothing exists apart from Allah is to say everything is Allah and that means you are also a part of Allah.

May Allah guide everyone to the straight path

This is in reference to the concept of Wahdat al-Wujud, of which there are various formulations and no consensus among scholars. As far as most Shi'ah scholars go, that propounded by Mulla Sadra in his transcendent philosophy is the most sensible version. It holds that the existence of entities is dependent on God and that any notion of their independence, rather than their actual existence as some versions claim, is the illusion. That is, their independence - not their existence - is the illusion. Mulla Sadra said: The light of the candle (creature) is light and the light of the Sun (Allah) is light and between these are infinite degrees of light. So while each degree is distinct the identity is still the same. Hence, while the existence of creatures is real, they do not have sovereignity over it. Existence belongs to Allah [swt] alone.

Having said that, although there is claimed to be various form of the concept, I personally feel they are all saying the same thing - which when understood properly is not shirk whatsoever - with the only difference being that some groups seem to get so excited that they fail to explain what they really mean and hence confuse us the laymen.

Edited by MajiC
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(bismillah)

There are levels of nearness. We are talking about nearness atainable by common people and not Ahlul Bait (as)

Very true. However I believe someone who is truly pious and on the righteous path is one who has a constant remembrance of Allah, and constant remembrance of His message and due to his devout nature and state will not fall into sin as easy as others. His peace of mind is different to all others. I believe this is completely genuine and this state, although difficult to achieve, is possible but through patient and constant prayer. So via a route open to all.

But 'nearness' being interpreted as a metaphysical experience is another thing. As in, if it is a belief where someone can literally enter a state or have a mystical experience of nearness to Allah via some hidden route i do not believe that is genuine

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I do understand your point. However i am uneasy with principles and paths of guidance founded on the basis of testimony of men claiming an understanding of occult knowledge of Allah. There are 2 possibilitys with this. Either this hidden knowledge has been given to them directly by Allah while on their 'path'. Or they are shaitans whisperings. The belief that Allah can grant this knowledge has further problems. 1) It requires you to believe you can communicate with Allah in a way no other believer can and more importantly that Allah comes and communicates with you 2) That there is hidden knowledge that Allah will give you permission to attain that is kept back from other believers. I consider myself devout and committed however i don not underestimate the shaitans ability to misguide so I will never delve into material of this kind. I have myself read of many how have entered into this kind of thing and have stopped abruptly as they realised it is leading to deviation from Allahs message.

well, brother. you seem to have figured it all out! you know tawhid so well, that anyone that doesnt agree with you, is certainly wrong. are you gonna write a book soon? because I m sure all those scholars studying irfan and ibn arabi need your advice. You should give them this profound, well thought out argument of yours. i m pretty sure they havent thought of it. its soooo unique. so new! I m pretty sure they will wake up once you tell them what you know! You should tell those arifs (where ever they may be) that Satan is whispering into their ears! its your duty. Dont waste your time on this forum.

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This is in reference to the concept of Wahdat al-Wujud, of which there are various formulations and no consensus among scholars. As far as most Shi'ah scholars go, that propounded by Mulla Sadra in his transcendent philosophy is the most sensible version. It holds that the existence of entities is dependent on God and that any notion of their independence, rather than their actual existence as some versions claim, is the illusion. That is, their independence - not their existence - is the illusion. Mulla Sadra said: The light of the candle is light and the light of the sun is light and between these are infinite degrees of light. So while each degree is distinct the identity (i.e. light) is still the same.

Having said that, although there is claimed to be various form of the concept, I personally feel they are all saying the same thing - which when understood properly is not shirk whatsoever - with the only difference being that some groups seem to get so excited that they fail to explain what they really mean and hence confuse us the laymen.

Very interesting as Mulla Sadras version is more grounded in fact. ALL things in the universe are dependent on Allah. In fact in the Quran Allah says specifically that it is Him that provides us sustanance. Thats the key concept. That Allah has created the beauty of the world around us AND sustains it with His majesty and glory. I am not independent of Allah i am constantly sustained by him. Duas that increase Rizq have this pupose so as to INCREASE sustanance and in that way Allah guides us more in our daily life.

I do however feel that there IS a distint difference in sensible philosophical statements that comply with what has already been revealed in the Quran and people that either knowingly or unwittingly fall into shirk.

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well, brother. you seem to have figured it all out! you know tawhid so well, that anyone that doesnt agree with you, is certainly wrong. are you gonna write a book soon? because I m sure all those scholars studying irfan and ibn arabi need your advice. You should give them this profound, well thought out argument of yours. i m pretty sure they havent thought of it. its soooo unique. so new! I m pretty sure they will wake up once you tell them what you know! You should tell those arifs (where ever they may be) that Satan is whispering into their ears! its your duty. Dont waste your time on this forum.

Thank you brother for the kind sarcasm and my intention is not to offend. It is clear to all Sunni and Shia what Ibn Arabi and his doctrines teach. Scholars who delve into into will have an idea of this. I do not need to give advice to anyone and everone is free to pursue what they like and is old enough to know. I am simply trying to understand why. And i have not explained tawheed i have simply said if the perception of tawheed is explained that is not in the Quran and ahlul bayt it is innovation and therefore not to be trusted.

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And i have not explained tawheed i have simply said if the perception of tawheed is explained that is not in the Quran and ahlul bayt it is innovation and therefore not to be trusted.

Do you understand that those scholars studying ibn arabi or Sadra are under the impression that their teachings are derived 100% from, and in line 100% with, the perception of tawhid as explained in Quran. If you didnt know this much, then I dont know what kind of research you have been doing.

Since you know that they are in delusion by satanic whisperings...it is your duty to tell them what you seem to know.

And i have not explained tawheed i have simply said if the perception of tawheed is explained that is not in the Quran and ahlul bayt it is innovation and therefore not to be trusted.

Do you understand that those scholars studying ibn arabi or Sadra are under the impression that their teachings are derived 100% from, and in line 100% with, the perception of tawhid as explained in Quran. If you didnt know this much, then I dont know what kind of research you have been doing.

Since you know that they are in delusion by satanic whisperings...it is your duty to tell them what you seem to know.

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Thank you brother for the kind sarcasm and my intention is not to offend. It is clear to all Sunni and Shia what Ibn Arabi and his doctrines teach. Scholars who delve into into will have an idea of this. I do not need to give advice to anyone and everone is free to pursue what they like and is old enough to know. I am simply trying to understand why. And i have not explained tawheed i have simply said if the perception of tawheed is explained that is not in the Quran and ahlul bayt it is innovation and therefore not to be trusted.

You should know though that according to Urufa, all these things have been explicitly stated in Quran and hadiths. In fact, the Quran is not implicit in it, it's just people like to not hear and reflect over what it says and accept the obvious.

There is many explicit verses in Quran and there is many explicit statements of Ahlebayt (as). They go through these things deeply so you can preceive them, then when you preceive them, I gurantee you you will see them in Quran and hadiths, and you will realize it's been clearly stated. It's literal in what it says, it's been repeated through out Quran, the themes repeated over the same subject and same proof leave no doubt, but it's the hearts that turn a way and it's ignorance that keeps one sastisfied from not understanding.

Knowledge is knowledge, Quran has come to make you see the truth, not just accept phrases you don't understand and can't preceive any truth in.

The hadiths and Quran are replete with these truths. There is many explicit verses that point to what is said. There is many hadiths that point to the truth as well. It's a whole different thing when people never reflect on hadiths and verses or deny their apparent meanings and twist around them, and then come telling people whom teach these very explicit and apparent meanings, that these teachings of have no basis in Ahelbayt (as).

In fact, it's been shown over and over again that all these statements have a basis in hadiths and Quran. Whether you accept the intrepetation or not, you cannot say it's without basis, because at the very least, you should admit that's a possible way of reading those verses and hadiths which means there is support. Without knowing why apparent meanings must be false, there is no reason to deny an apparent meanings of Quran, when they are apparent and clear and literal but from the angle they are said.

It's the same with hadiths. Take the literal meaning, don't twist around it, find an angle of it being true if it conflicts with well known truths, but don't go this metaphoric twisting thing. Keep it as it is. Ahelbaty (as) don't need exagerate kinder garden truths, metaphors are for harder to understands truths, so don't take a statement, twist to it a kindergarden level knowledge by metaphorical non-literal and say this is what Ahlebayt (as) meant.

For example the hadith of AlI (as) seeing God in everything, in it , by it, with it, please don't twist it to a kindergarden thing "like everything is seen to be not God because it's limited and obviously not God and so I see God through it" type thing. This is what one party does - the very party that claims it's them sticking the traditions and the other people relying on conjecture. They regard their ignoance as basis of intrepreting hadiths and regard knowledge as conjecture and illegitimate way of seeing hadiths. Very quite pathetic but this is the reality.

As for approaching hadiths, hadiths compliment Quran, and Quran compliemnts hadiths, and Urufa books compliment Quran and hadiths as well and vice versa. There is really no separation. This type of approach is really saying relying on your own preception and never look at the preception of others and try to gain knowledge but keeping a balance between the three. If you want to do that and rely on your ignorance, and think there is not a higher knowledge, that would make everything in Quran and hadiths come together beautifully while you read it and you have no idea to any relationship of one phrase of God to another or how one thing relates to tawhed or not, or what's it's really saying at all, then go ahead.

I will quote Imam Jaffar (as) on ignorance:

Ignorance is a form whose composition is of this world. When it advances, there is darkness; when it retreats, there is light. The bondsman vacillates with it as shadows vacillate with the sun. Have you not looked at man? Sometimes you find that he is ignorant of his own qualities and praises them, while he recognizes their faults in others and criticizes them. At other times you find that a person knows his own nature and criticizes it, while praising the same in others. He vacillates between protection and disappointment. If he encounters integrity and protection, he is correct. If he encounters lack of assistance and desertion, he errs. The key to ignorance is being satisfied with the knowledge one possesses, and placing all one's trust in it. [b]The key to knowledge is the desire to exchange one level of knowledge for a higher level, together with divine grace and guidance.[/b] The lowest quality of an ignorant man is that he lays claim to knowledge which he does not deserve; his most common characteristic is ignorance of his own ignorance, and the most extreme aspect of his ignorance is to reject knowledge. There is nothing whose affirmation is the reality of its negation other that worldly ignorance and greed. All ignorant people are alike.

Edited by Awakened
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To the OP, you need to understand, there's some folks nowadays who'll take their religion from a nasibi like Ibn `Arabi yet still think they're Shi`as in doing so, while simultaneously remaining utterly ignorant of what their own Imams (as) actually taught. When presented with those teachings they will continually try to explain them away, twisting their meaning to say the opposite of what the hadith actually states. In fact these folks haven't usually even read such works of their Sufi heroes for themselves, but are relying on second, third hand accounts by Sufi elitists posing as scholars who've further polluted the academia of the West.

In terms of the names of some `ulama that have also sadly bought into this, you'll tend to notice it's the same names that come up again and again. Historically though (unlike what some liars will claim) our madhhab has not approved of such things as Sufism and in fact been quite hostile to it, nor have we fallen prey to the "esoteric" nonsense of groups like the Isma`ilis.

Again, my advice is to ignore that (unless you're equipped to give it the refuting it deserves), and stick with what the core `ulama of our ta'ifa have taught, such luminaries as Saduq, Mufid, Murtada, Tusi and so on. And again, make the teachings of the Ahl al-Bayt themselves your root to firmly ground yourself in. If you do so, you will see how eminently reasonable, clear, and practical our religion is. All this other stuff is worthless, leading to misguidance and perdition.

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Ref: http://www.world-federation.org/Secretariat/Articles/Archive/Details_WF_Presidents_meeting_Ayatullah_al_Uzma_Syed_Sistani_other_Maraje.htm

Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Sistani on Mysticism:

Agha was briefed on the growing trend of our community students who travel to the Hawza and focus their studies towards Irfan. Upon their return they seem to possess some distinct appearances, behaviours and attitudes. The community at large is not used to this and feel concerned about the development of these students.

Agha devoted a significant amount of time to this question and it was an area he was clearly concerned about.

Agha confirmed that he was aware of the variety of trends and practices that exist in Qum. He knew that Mysticism is sometimes studied over and above the traditional Hawza subjects. Agha stated that he was not against the study of supplementary subjects in the Hawza, including Mysticism, but stressed the importance of learning the numerous critiques of mystical approaches as well, as this would give a balanced view of the realities of Islam.

Agha summarised three approaches to the presentation of the education in Qum:

The rational approach which does not delve into mystical principles, for example the approach of Ayatullah Ja’far Subhani

The approach where a number of disciplines, for example Fiqh, Philosophy, Mysticism, Hadith, Tafsir etc. are fused together, for example the approach of Ayatullah Jawadi Amoli

The Mystical approach where the ‘hidden’ (Batin) elements are over-emphasised

Agha concluded that the first two approaches are acceptable in his view. The third approach however was where Agha advised caution and described them as ‘deviated’. He mentioned his observations of some Sufi orders that eventually deviated from the core fundamentals of Islam. He warned that an over-emphasis on mystical principles may lead to multiple pathways and incorrect interpretations within Islam and such a result is not in line with the teachings of the Ahl al-Bayt (as).

Agha urged a closer connection with his offices and trustworthy Ulama in Qum so that the students of our community do not become misguided with questionable teachers and practices.

Agha concluded that aspects of spirituality, as taught by the Ahl al-Bayt (as), are adequate for the refinement of the soul and he felt there is no need to introduce Mysticism as a separate subject to other Islamic disciplines.

Agha also mentioned that Khums should not be utilised for support of any extreme or deviant Mystical practices.

Ayatullah Ishaq Fayyaz on Mysticism

Ayatullah Fayyaz stated that he was not in favour of Mysticism being taught in the mainstream Hawza curriculum, feeling that this may lead students towards incorrect Sufi-type tendencies. He concluded by mentioning that the Prophet’s (saw) biggest challenge in Medina was against baseless Mystical practices.

Ayatullah Hafiz Bashir Najafi on Mysticism

On the subject of studying Mysticism, he stated that it is a necessity for the student to have mastered the other Islamic sciences, especially Fiqh, before entering into such areas. He explained that there were several avenues in achieving the recognition (ma’rifa) of Allah; one is through the mastery of Ilm al-Kalam (Aqaid). The other is through being an expert in Fiqh. Ayatullah Bashir concluded that it is only when one masters all Islamic sciences that he can dwell into understanding the science of Mysticism.

He specifically highlighted the example of Imam Khumayni: he was a Faqih and a scholar in all Islamic sciences and only then delved into the subject of Mysticism. He warned that students who study Mysticism at early stages of their Hawza studies are likely to be lost and to deviate. He was hence against the teaching of Mysticism in the mainstream Hawza curriculum, particularly for students whose basics were not strong enough.

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To the OP, you need to understand, there's some folks nowadays who'll take their religion from a nasibi like Ibn `Arabi yet still think they're Shi`as in doing so, while simultaneously remaining utterly ignorant of what their own Imams (as) actually taught. When presented with those teachings they will continually try to explain them away, twisting their meaning to say the opposite of what the hadith actually states. In fact these folks haven't usually even read such works of their Sufi heroes for themselves, but are relying on second, third hand accounts by Sufi elitists posing as scholars who've further polluted the academia of the West.

In terms of the names of some `ulama that have also sadly bought into this, you'll tend to notice it's the same names that come up again and again. Historically though (unlike what some liars will claim) our madhhab has not approved of such things as Sufism and in fact been quite hostile to it, nor have we fallen prey to the "esoteric" nonsense of groups like the Isma`ilis.

Summed up pretty well. It is difficult to see how the origin of irfan within our madhab can not be from the Sufis. Alhamdullilah we have NOTHING in common with ismaili groups and the like. The Ismaili were developed as a madhab by Hassan-e-Sabbah of the Hashashin whose kufr included making a fake Jannah in his own garden by druging individuals and thus they would hallucinate. Incidently he is regarded as one of the biggest influences on the kafir knights templars during the time of the crusades in which along with the jewish mystical religion kabbalah brought back 'esoteric' practices of the Ismaili back to europe. They were eventually all burnt at the stake by King phillip of france. In fact the term BATINIYYAH refers to these groups who focus on 'esoteric' Islam. They are regarded as deviants by all muslims but themselves

Ref: http://www.world-federation.org/Secretariat/Articles/Archive/Details_WF_Presidents_meeting_Ayatullah_al_Uzma_Syed_Sistani_other_Maraje.htm

Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Sistani on Mysticism:

Agha was briefed on the growing trend of our community students who travel to the Hawza and focus their studies towards Irfan. Upon their return they seem to possess some distinct appearances, behaviours and attitudes. The community at large is not used to this and feel concerned about the development of these students.

Agha devoted a significant amount of time to this question and it was an area he was clearly concerned about.

:D lol distinct appearances. Thats a polite way of saying they grow a freak mustache and look like darvish ;) .Nice to know Ayatollah Sistani is concerned about this. I think this kind of mysticism stuff was also present during the early Saffavid era as the Saffavids were part of a Sufi order ( the deviant Ghizilbash are an example of the thinking at the time). However even back then Ayatollahs started to purge Shia Islam of this innovation and return to Orthodox Shia Islam which was at the time present in other Arab countries such as Iraq. They succeeded alhamdullilah and the Sufi were marginalised. However clearly these elements just do not seem to want to go away :dry:

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(bismillah)

Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Sistani on Mysticism:

Agha was briefed on the growing trend of our community students who travel to the Hawza and focus their studies towards Irfan. Upon their return they seem to possess some distinct appearances, behaviours and attitudes. The community at large is not used to this and feel concerned about the development of these students.

One difference between the Sufis and the Shiah 'Urafa is that the former distinguish themselves from the ordinary people in their outward appearence, whereas this is not supposed to be a feature of the Shiah Urafa who blent into the community and are otherwise not discrenable from the ordinary folk. If the above is true then this is obviousely not in keeping with the custom of the Shi'i 'Urafa who shun this kind of practise.

Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Sistani on Mysticism:

Agha devoted a significant amount of time to this question and it was an area he was clearly concerned about.

Agha confirmed that he was aware of the variety of trends and practices that exist in Qum. He knew that Mysticism is sometimes studied over and above the traditional Hawza subjects. Agha stated that he was not against the study of supplementary subjects in the Hawza, including Mysticism, but stressed the importance of learning the numerous critiques of mystical approaches as well, as this would give a balanced view of the realities of Islam.

Ayatullah Ishaq Fayyaz on Mysticism

Ayatullah Fayyaz stated that he was not in favour of Mysticism being taught in the mainstream Hawza curriculum, feeling that this may lead students towards incorrect Sufi-type tendencies. He concluded by mentioning that the Prophet’s (saw) biggest challenge in Medina was against baseless Mystical practices.

Ayatullah Hafiz Bashir Najafi on Mysticism

On the subject of studying Mysticism, he stated that it is a necessity for the student to have mastered the other Islamic sciences, especially Fiqh, before entering into such areas. He explained that there were several avenues in achieving the recognition (ma’rifa) of Allah; one is through the mastery of Ilm al-Kalam (Aqaid). The other is through being an expert in Fiqh. Ayatullah Bashir concluded that it is only when one masters all Islamic sciences that he can dwell into understanding the science of Mysticism.

He specifically highlighted the example of Imam Khumayni: he was a Faqih and a scholar in all Islamic sciences and only then delved into the subject of Mysticism. He warned that students who study Mysticism at early stages of their Hawza studies are likely to be lost and to deviate. He was hence against the teaching of Mysticism in the mainstream Hawza curriculum, particularly for students whose basics were not strong enough.

Hence, we should not be quick to judge that certain Ulama are outright against the study of 'Irfan. Their concerns are completely legitimate in my opinion; Irfan cannot be approached as a standalone subject and there are prerequisites that guide its proper undestanding so as to avoid deviation. The practise of Irfan must be in keeping with Qur'an and the teachings of the Prophet and the Imams [pbut]. There is indeed a risk of over-emphasising the esoteric aspects and adopting deviant ways if one's understanding is not supervised and guided. Notable Shi'i Urafa, such as Khomaini, Tabatabai and Mutahhari have themselves said this much.

apba

Edited by MajiC
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One difference between the Sufis and the Shiah 'Urafa is that the former distinguish themselves from the ordinary people in their outward appearence, whereas this is not supposed to be a feature of the Shiah Urafa who blent into the community and are otherwise not discrenable from the ordinary folk. If the above is true then this is obviousely not in keeping with the custom of the Shi'i 'Urafa who shun this kind of practise.

It's not only a matter of outward superficialities. Sufi theology is simply incompatible with Sh`i beliefs. Even though one can point to some later philosophers that tried to blend these thoughts importing Sufi though (particularly Ibn `Arabi's pantheism), at their heart they are fundamentally incompatible and in opposition. It isn't only because Sufis like to play music, write poetry about getting drunk and worshiping idols, and so on that we oppose them. It's that they are on a different religion from ours, taking their doctrine as they have from deviated sources and ignoring the house of guidance in the process. This true of both nasibi Sufis like Ibn `Arabi and his followers as well as those claiming to be Shi`a.

Hence, we should not be quick to judge that certain Ulama are outright against the study of 'Irfan.

I'm not sure how you derive that conclusion from the above, except for possibly Shaykh Najafi's saying.

Their concerns are completely legitimate in my opinion; Irfan cannot be approached as a standalone subject and there are prerequisites that guide its proper undestanding so as to avoid deviation.

Yet, that is exactly what so many people are doing. You've obviously taken quite an interest in this stuff, have you the proper "prerequisites" to do so? To quote the part from Shaykh Najafi, "it is a necessity for the student to have mastered the other Islamic sciences, especially Fiqh, before entering into such areas." Have you done this?

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It's not only a matter of outward superficialities. Sufi theology is simply incompatible with Sh`i beliefs. Even though one can point to some later philosophers that tried to blend these thoughts importing Sufi though (particularly Ibn `Arabi's pantheism), at their heart they are fundamentally incompatible and in opposition. It isn't only because Sufis like to play music, write poetry about getting drunk and worshiping idols, and so on that we oppose them. It's that they are on a different religion from ours, taking their doctrine as they have from deviated sources and ignoring the house of guidance in the process. This true of both nasibi Sufis like Ibn `Arabi and his followers as well as those claiming to be Shi`a.

I'm not sure how you derive that conclusion from the above, except for possibly Shaykh Najafi's saying.

Yet, that is exactly what so many people are doing. You've obviously taken quite an interest in this stuff, have you the proper "prerequisites" to do so? To quote the part from Shaykh Najafi, "it is a necessity for the student to have mastered the other Islamic sciences, especially Fiqh, before entering into such areas." Have you done this?

Ok this is fact

Many people find it difficult to say anything in opposition to the concept of Irfan because of blind faith. You have to basically realise that although you are following SHIA figh or SUNNI figh that not everything that is presented in Shia is right. The same with sunnis.

The Sunnis know full well that muwaiyah ibn abu sufyan was an abomination to mankind, waged war on Ali, called himself amir ul mumineen, made it compulsory to curse Ali, buried alive Abd al-Rahman bin Hasaan (may Allah send this noble man blessings) for refusing to curse Ali. They know Yazid (may Allah burn him in the hell fire for all time) killed Husayn and his pure companions. Yet they make excuses for both. They cant say hang on maybe we are actually wrong and the shia have a point on this

Mysticism and Irfan is derive from Sufism. I know, you know, all Shia know deep down Sufism is bordering on murtad and is and was admired by many sorcerers, black magicians, occult societies, demonologists (jinn), and satanic groups of medieval victorian renaissance era etc. This should ring alarm bells that this admiration from these groups that literally worship Iblis is disturbing. People like Al Hallaj (who some Shia ayatollah which will not be named have payed homage to and admired) claimed literally that one of his biggest friends was Iblis, stated "I am God" which was also stated by kafir Rumi 3 centurys later and whose teachings are used by occult and new age spiritual groups at the present day to carry on the seriously annoyingly old lie of "we are all divine beings" "we all have divine essence" "we can all be gods" "we are all a part of the godhead". This is shaitans game. Sufis have said numerous times that Iblis is to be admired for he did not bow down to Adam out of rejection of Allah but because he "loved" Allah. Despite the Shaitan (may Allah curse him) being describe by Allah the Almighty in the Quran as being "cursed, despised and rejected" and one of the "unbelievers" and an "avowed enemy of man" whose followers Allah will "fill Hell with every last one".

It does not matter if some ulama accept irfan or not. It was never part of our madhab and is born from Sufism. We must reject it.

Edited by yahossein
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When you mean we have nothing to do with esoteric?

Which scholar, I mean from any side, has said we have no esoteric outlook on at least some of the Shariah as well as verses having outer and inner meanings?

Or maybe your specific about esoteric in a sense?

We believe in outward and inward relationship between Shariah. For example, things you do in Hajj have inner meanings that apply to you as an invidual and as well there is social outlook to these rituals.

For example, you believe there is no esoteric reality to Qibla in Shariah?

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When you mean we have nothing to do with esoteric?

Which scholar, I mean from any side, has said we have no esoteric outlook on at least some of the Shariah as well as verses having outer and inner meanings?

Or maybe your specific about esoteric in a sense?

We believe in outward and inward relationship between Shariah. For example, things you do in Hajj have inner meanings that apply to you as an invidual and as well there is social outlook to these rituals.

For example, you believe there is no esoteric reality to Qibla in Shariah?

LOL no i dont mean that kind of inner meaning. Of course the Qiblah has meaning. Things like encircling the Kabba. And the fact we do it 7 times. Why 7 times. Why is 7 such an important number etc. Laylatul Qadr Amal. 13,14,15 days of Rajab etc. Ayatul Kursi beng so powerful. Rituals in Hajj. Benefit of wearing white in namaz. Special significance of namaz e shab. Alif Lam Mim and other letters whose meanings are unknown.

These are all special gifts from Allah that although the ahlul bayt havnt explained for explained HOW the complex recitation of different surahs in certain order etc on 13,14,15 Amal of Ummul bayz works they have said that it does. However the KNOWLEDGE of unseen is only with Allah.

Tragically nowadays the term ESOTERIC has been used in english and european traditions for centuries to denote these mystical cults and occult societies that carry out blasphemous rituals which claim to have hidden knowledge of everything. Thats why esoteric has been associated with mysticism now. These groups, all of which deal with Jinn, have taken over the term for their own purpose.

The inner meanings of Allahs commands are beautiful and no doubt special, but ONLY to be known by Allah

Anyone or group claiming to follow esoteric doctrine has no knowledge of the secrets of the unseen of Allah but instead the secrets of Shaitan (may Allah curse him) and his Jinn that will willingly pass it on deceiving men for thousands of years that the secrets of the Jinn are the secrets of Allah. Shaitans fake game and deception (may Allah curse him). A great shame and a pity that so many in past and yet now have fallen off the path by not listening to the Quran when it says only Allah knows the unseen. Allah is trying to help us in the Quran and to guide us. He knows what is best for us. Its only our fault that we fail to listen. Subhanallah.

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