Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Basim Ali

Vegetarians...

Recommended Posts

^Interesting. I know people have gotten responses from him saying it was no problem before. Curious.

(salam)

the question may be is one from his office and one from him?

at the bottom of yours it said the office of fadlallah.

also i would like to see what did basim ask him exactly and what did you ask him exactly? could you both post? because if he says it is permissible for when one cannot find hallal and not when one can. lets investigate!

i know not a good translator but Google translate shows a little different to basims so can we also examine these arabic ones closely.

Arabic to English translationcleardot.gif:

I do not mind in terms of legal rights to be vegetarian, the meat-eating is not only legally obligatory point of keeping oneself from destruction and preservation of health from diseases and harmful to the food shortage, it is known the body's need for meat is not limited by the excessive or negligence, human beings should be taken into account , but if it reached the stage of health damage from lack of eating meat forbidden to him that, or was not forbidden.

(wasalam)

Edited by theunknownpreacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I sent all the maraji that I contacted regarding vegetarianism/veganism.

As salaam alaikum,

Could you please clarify for me the permissibility of being vegetarian or vegan?

Vegetarianism usually consists of eating only vegetables, though one may partake of milk and milk products, eggs and other similar foodstuffs that are taken from living animals without killing them.

Veganism consists of abstaining from all animal products, either consuming them, wearing them or using any shampoos or other such things that have animal derived ingredients in them or were produced by companies that do product testing on animals.

Is it permissible for a Muslim to be vegetarian or vegan if they recognize that Allah has made meat eating halal under certain provisions, even though the individual Muslim might have personal ethical qualms about the use of animals for food, clothing or other such things for himself? Especially if that Muslim has personal reservations about slaughtering an animal he intends to eat himself and therefore does not feel it would be right of him to hire someone else out to do it for him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I sent all the maraji that I contacted regarding vegetarianism/veganism.

(salam)

very good you gave a very in depth question, okay now can we get brother basim to post what he sent? and perhaps someone can re translate what he received? as in Google translate it said Eating meat is obligatory.

(wasalam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

very good you gave a very in depth question, okay now can we get brother basim to post what he sent? and perhaps someone can re translate what he received? as in Google translate it said Eating meat is obligatory.

(wasalam)

Basim already posted this. Please read the thread. The Google translation did not produce English, but gibberish. Someone already provided a translation of the relevant text.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basim already posted this. Please read the thread. The Google translation did not produce English, but gibberish. Someone already provided a translation of the relevant text.

(salam)

i did read the thread brother and also you may notice brother jondab said Rough translation!

although i did not see where basim posted what he sent? i will look it over. also one should notice that fadlallah said under shariah it is not forbidden to be a vegetarian but also advised that as long as it causes no harm, and we know not eating some meat at least some, causes harm.

(wasalam)

Edited by theunknownpreacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Scientifically, nutrtionally speaking... not eating meat does not cause harm.

Not really, have fun getting your B12 from something that hasn't come from an animal. Then there's all the nutrients that unless you're very, very careful chances are you will have deficiencies in, such as your protein, iron, calcium (for vegans), the nine essential amino acids and other vitamins and minerals. It is diet that the human body is not naturally made for and which historically no human society has lived off of, causing you to have to jump through loads of hoops to try to stay somewhat healthy (and even there, you can't without cheating i.e. on your B12).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For someone that claims to have been vegetarian you're incredibly ignorant about veg/vegan nutrition. Thanks for playing.

You're also making such huge mistakes in logic. The human body, scientifically speaking, is constructed far more closely to the primate body than any other animal. We have the taxonomy for diets much more similar to great apes and chimps, ie heavy on roughage light on protein. Especially animal based protein. Whether you believe in evolution or not, the structural comparison is factual. And, actually, most great apes are frugivores(ie, fruitarians). We also observe that in most traditional societies meat isn't eaten nearly as much as it is in modern society. The Prophet's(sal) sunnah, for instance, is to have less meat and a more plant-based diet. The same is true of hunter-gatherer societies.

Human beings can thrive on a 100% plant-based diet, where as they sicken and die on a 100% meat-based diet. We are not carnivores, nor are we omnivores along the lines of the bear. We are omnivores that should, and naturally tend towards, eating mostly plants.

One last thing, to drop some science on your head about B12.... vitamin B12 is certainly found largely in animal products in this day and age. Which is due primarily to what is done with our modern food supply. Cows, chickens, etc do not produce vitamin B12, they get it from plants that they eat and the soil stuck to the plants. B12 is found in the ground! I'm saying eat dirt, but that's just the science. Bacteria in the ground biosynthesize the stuff, and those bacteria are also found in the human gut and that of ruminant animals. Furthermore, a supplement pill isn't even entirely necessary considering that so many foods... including cereals and soy milks are fortified with many vitamins and minerals these days, including B12.

You should actually have knowledge before you go spouting off about something dude.

Edited by Zenshiite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For someone that claims to have been vegetarian you're incredibly ignorant about veg/vegan nutrition. Thanks for playing.

You're also making such huge mistakes in logic. The human body, scientifically speaking, is constructed far more closely to the primate body than any other animal. We have the taxonomy for diets much more similar to great apes and chimps, ie heavy on roughage light on protein. Especially animal based protein. Whether you believe in evolution or not, the structural comparison is factual. And, actually, most great apes are frugivores(ie, fruitarians). We also observe that in most traditional societies meat isn't eaten nearly as much as it is in modern society. The Prophet's(sal) sunnah, for instance, is to have less meat and a more plant-based diet. The same is true of hunter-gatherer societies.

Human beings can thrive on a 100% plant-based diet, where as they sicken and die on a 100% meat-based diet. We are not carnivores, nor are we omnivores along the lines of the bear. We are omnivores that should, and naturally tend towards, eating mostly plants.

One last thing, to drop some science on your head about B12.... vitamin B12 is certainly found largely in animal products in this day and age. Which is due primarily to what is done with our modern food supply. Cows, chickens, etc do not produce vitamin B12, they get it from plants that they eat and the soil stuck to the plants. B12 is found in the ground! I'm saying eat dirt, but that's just the science. Bacteria in the ground biosynthesize the stuff, and those bacteria are also found in the human gut and that of ruminant animals. Furthermore, a supplement pill isn't even entirely necessary considering that so many foods... including cereals and soy milks are fortified with many vitamins and minerals these days, including B12.

You should actually have knowledge before you go spouting off about something dude.

Ahem. Pwned, as they say. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahem. Pwned, as they say. ;)

Err, how? Sure you can pop some pills or eat processed food where they've injected the stuff in it, but how would that qualify as a normal, naturally available diet that human beings in their creation would be intended for? Doesn't really matter where the B12 originates from, fact is the only known source from which it is naturally indigestible by humans comes via animal products. As to the rest, if you read what I was saying it was that yes, if a person jumps through a bunch of hoops and is very very careful they can find substitutes for a lot of that, but then, why jump through those hoops instead of simply partaking in what our Creator has provided for us and in accordance with the Sunna? As to the point of saying humans are geared towards being omnivores and not carnivores, who's arguing for us to be carnivores? And as to being omnivores, isn't that what I'm saying? The only one's advocating an extreme one-sided diet here are those pushing for veganism while what I'm saying (and what our religion is saying) is a balanced diet that includes meat and non-meat foodstuffs which is what an omnivorous diet is.

As to the health benefits and disadvantages, you should realize that most people promoting veganism are doing so out of an ethical conviction that killing and eating animals is morally wrong. Health issues when weighed against that moral paradigm are secondary. So when you find claims of it being completely healthy, natural, risk free, etc., being propagated by them, you should keep in mind they're hardly providing you an unbiased assessment of it. Consult with actual non-politicized nutritionists and doctors, and I'd gather that moderate meat consumption is going to be a pretty standard recommendation.

All that said, the real decider for us here should be what our religion tells us. And on that issue, I can't see how it could possibly be clearer as to 1) there is nothing inherently unethical with killing and eating animals 2) in fact, in certain circumstances their slaughtering is mandated for us as a religious obligation 3) properly slaughtered meat is halal to consume 4) eating meat is recommended and a custom our Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) did and encouraged and 5) not eating meat for more than forty days at a time is spoken against. Put all those together, how could one then claim that there's no conflict between willful vegetarianism/veganism and Islamic ethics?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Err, how? Sure you can pop some pills or eat processed food where they've injected the stuff in it, but how would that qualify as a normal, naturally available diet that human beings in their creation would be intended for? Doesn't really matter where the B12 originates from, fact is the only known source from which it is naturally indigestible by humans comes via animal products. As to the rest, if you read what I was saying it was that yes, if a person jumps through a bunch of hoops and is very very careful they can find substitutes for a lot of that, but then, why jump through those hoops instead of simply partaking in what our Creator has provided for us and in accordance with the Sunna? As to the point of saying humans are geared towards being omnivores and not carnivores, who's arguing for us to be carnivores? And as to being omnivores, isn't that what I'm saying? The only one's advocating an extreme one-sided diet here are those pushing for veganism while what I'm saying (and what our religion is saying) is a balanced diet that includes meat and non-meat foodstuffs which is what an omnivorous diet is.

As to the health benefits and disadvantages, you should realize that most people promoting veganism are doing so out of an ethical conviction that killing and eating animals is morally wrong. Health issues when weighed against that moral paradigm are secondary. So when you find claims of it being completely healthy, natural, risk free, etc., being propagated by them, you should keep in mind they're hardly providing you an unbiased assessment of it. Consult with actual non-politicized nutritionists and doctors, and I'd gather that moderate meat consumption is going to be a pretty standard recommendation.

All that said, the real decider for us here should be what our religion tells us. And on that issue, I can't see how it could possibly be clearer as to 1) there is nothing inherently unethical with killing and eating animals 2) in fact, in certain circumstances their slaughtering is mandated for us as a religious obligation 3) properly slaughtered meat is halal to consume 4) eating meat is recommended and a custom our Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) did and encouraged and 5) not eating meat for more than forty days at a time is spoken against. Put all those together, how could one then claim that there's no conflict between willful vegetarianism/veganism and Islamic ethics?

Easily, and it's been done ad infinitum. It doesn't need justified, furthermore... when the majority of maraji consulted on the matter say there is no problem YOU are bound to accept that.

Secondly, your science is horribly flawed and so is your knowledge of the nutrition sciences. The only thing which actual nutritionists recommend for vegans is a b12 supplement, and again... that's not really an issue at all. You can talk all you want about finding things "naturally" and it ultimately doesn't matter one bit. There is zero science supporting the notion that one would be harmed in not eating meat every 40 days when one can easily obtain all necessary nutrition from a plant based diet. The 40 day recommendation was done in a time period when this wasn't nearly as possible and in a culture that 1) doesn't have a history of vegetarianism and especially not lifelong vegetarianism and 2) doesn't have a history of making protein rich plant based food like tofu, tempeh, seitan/wheat gluten, etc. One doesn't have to heavily processed modern foods in order to get all necessary nutrition, that's a total fallacy. It tells me that you were a pretty [Edited Out]py vegetarian, if indeed you ever were one, before you decided that meat eating is wajib based on your own qiyas. Plenty of nutrition is found in vegetarian diets in Asian, for instance, amongst monastic martial arts practitioners. And while the Buddhist vegetarianism is done ethically, it's also considered ethical to keep one's self healthy.

I'm not even going to continue this discussion, you have been schooled and you choose to continue in your ignorance and arrogance. Take care.

wa Salaam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)(salam)

The only other choice is to eat soy. Soy is soaked in a toxic substance then it is heavily processed till there are messes up nutrients left . Soy also contains estrogens, which are bad in excess for males and females. For now, i sticking to meat.

(wasalam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam),

^How'd you get him to answer? I visited his site, and couldn't find an option for e-mailing him my question. The only option I saw was sending my question to Pakistan or Iraq, by post. :S

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Edited by Basim Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam),

^How'd you get him to answer? I visited his site, and couldn't find an option for e-mailing him my question. The only option I saw was sending my question to Pakistan or Iraq, by post. :S

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

(wasalam)

Hmm, I thought I just went through the site, but now I'm not seeing a link for it. Went away? Anyhow, you might try one of these (I wouldn't send this same question since we already have the answer from them):

english@alnajafy.com (listed on that english contact page)

info@alnajafy.com (the one that responded to me (Arabic))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I received another answer some time ago from Mohammed al Musawi. Here it is:

Eating meat is allowed in Islam and it is unlawful to clam that eating meat is forbidden and be completely vegetarian. The Prophet (sawa) used to eat meat, so, no one has any point to claim that eating meat is wrong. It is Makrooh to leave eating meat for continuous forty days, and it is Makrooh as well to eat meat for 40 days is harmful, as well as eating meat for forty days is harmful Wassalam.

(salam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basim this was a while back like 2 name changes ago for me. now everyone is going to be reminded of who i am. ;)

anyways where does the do not eat meat for 40 days come from ?

Edited by Maitham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

I have recently reduced my consumption of animals products (meat & dairy, including eggs) about 90%. It is great, al-Hamdulillah. We are supposed to take care of our health, the Imams [as] taught to not make our stomachs a graveyard for animals.There's a hadith of similar wording, I believe. So I'm an almost vegan. Already lactose intolerant, so giving up dairy wasn't hard (i had cut that down previously anyway). I have more energy, I am feeling more healthy...It's much easier to wake up in the mornings now as well. I don't go 40 days straight without any meat. I started this lifestyle change about...5 weeks ago. After the first three weeks I had some meat. I don't really crave it anymore. Now it is mostly a social convention of being in a place where I don't have much choice.

Also, the myths of really "needing meat" are mostly false. Protein can be gained from wheat and legumes (beans, nuts, lentils, etc). As someone else also alluded to, the only thing a vegan might be low on is B12, but most vegan milks are fortified for it (like Almond, Soy, or Coconut milk).

This lifestyle change inspired by 2 documentaries: Food, Inc. & Forks Over Knives.

I also watched one called Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead. Also interesting and insightful.

Let's face it, our society eats way too much meat. Our health and economics would be so much better would we eat less of it. It takes so much more time and resources to produce 1 gram of meat than it does grain. If even a fraction of the money/food given to feed beef cows were reallocated, we could feed the entire world... Also meat is lower on the energy chain.

في أمان الله

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most meats you get these days aren't really "halal",

if you see the cruelty and inhumane conditions these animals are raised , herded and slaughtered .

not to mention they are pumped with steroids , antibiotics and toxic foods.

And the fish , well most die in the water , in nets or over crowded fish farms .

GO RAW !!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are supposed to take care of our health, the Imams [as] taught to not make our stomachs a graveyard for animals.There's a hadith of similar wording, I believe.

I read a Hadith from Imam Ali (as) where he says that its not good to make your stomach a graveyard for animals.

I keep hearing folks referring to this but I have no idea where it is from (if anywhere). I haven't read it in our canonical collections, plus the fact of the many hadiths (see the links from Replicant above) we have that encourage the eating of meat and as well as speak against its abstention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I keep hearing folks referring to this but I have no idea where it is from (if anywhere). I haven't read it in our canonical collections, plus the fact of the many hadiths (see the links from Replicant above) we have that encourage the eating of meat and as well as speak against its abstention.

But that Hadith isn't saying we shouldn't eat meat. Of course meat is good for you, but in moderation. Eating meat every single day obviously wouldn't be encouraged in Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

Ok, thanks. :) Can you just add it this thread, in case anybody needs it later:

Thanks again.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Salam

I clicked on the link of grand ayotallahs and their was like 7 or 8 ayotallahs which was very help but how come sayyed fadallah is not on their? I know this is off topic but I was just curios.

Edited by Martyrdom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

I keep hearing folks referring to this but I have no idea where it is from (if anywhere). I haven't read it in our canonical collections, plus the fact of the many hadiths (see the links from Replicant above) we have that encourage the eating of meat and as well as speak against its abstention.

It probably isn't from the 4 books, probably from something like al-Khisaal.

Well, meat wasn't an everyday norm like it is today. Meat was a rare commodity... Most accounts of food from the life of the Prophet or A'immah (sawa) is things like dates, bread, barely...etc Meat is really only talked about on special occasions or when someone else is feeding them. This is at least from what I have come to know. Also, this isn't a total abstention of meat just a great reduction in consumption. The Ahlulbayt [as] loving meat doesn't mean they ate a lot of it or very often.

And just as a side of information, i know Sunni have ahadeeth similarly. I have been told that they have a narration where the Prophet [sawa] says that a single goat should last an entire village for 3 weeks. Speaks volumes on how little meat was eaten per person. These types of topical things from their books I don't think are things to be suspicious of.

في أمان الله

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam

I clicked on the link of grand ayotallahs and their was like 7 or 8 ayotallahs which was very help but how come sayyed fadallah is not on their? I know this is off topic but I was just curios.

The thread only lists living Marjas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

It probably isn't from the 4 books, probably from something like al-Khisaal.

What I meant was any of our books from such authors as Saduq, Kulayni, Mufid, Tusi, etc. not just the four books. I didn't even find it mentioned in Wasa'il. It's just there's a number of these supposed "hadiths" floating around out there that aren't found in any books, but are actually just popular sayings or what have you that get attributed to an Imam and then passed off as a hadith. I'd just be very curious if this was a case of that or whether this narration can actually be found anywhere.

Well, meat wasn't an everyday norm like it is today. Meat was a rare commodity... Most accounts of food from the life of the Prophet or A'immah (sawa) is things like dates, bread, barely...etc Meat is really only talked about on special occasions or when someone else is feeding them. This is at least from what I have come to know. Also, this isn't a total abstention of meat just a great reduction in consumption. The Ahlulbayt [as] loving meat doesn't mean they ate a lot of it or very often.

Not really. The hadiths we have indicate otherwise. Such as these:

[ 31092 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن علي بن الحكم ، عن الحسين بن أبي العلا ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : كان رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) لحما يحب اللحم .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from al-Husayn b. al-`Ala' from Abu `Abdillah ( عليه السلام ). He said: The Messenger of Allah ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) was a meat-lover (lahiman, someone who eats a lot of meat) loving meat.

[ 31093 ] 2 ـ وعنه عن أحمد ، عن علي بن الحكم ، عن سيف بن عميرة ، عن الحسن بن هارون ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : ترك أبوجعفر ( عليه السلام ) ثلاثين درهما للحم يوم توفي وكان رجلا لحما .

2 – And from him from Ahmad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Sayf b. `Umayra from al-Hasan b. Harun from Abu `Abdillah ( عليه السلام ). He said: Abu Ja`far ( عليه السلام ) left thirty dirhams for meat the day he died, and he was a man who was a meat-lover.

And just as a side of information, i know Sunni have ahadeeth similarly. I have been told that they have a narration where the Prophet [sawa] says that a single goat should last an entire village for 3 weeks. Speaks volumes on how little meat was eaten per person. These types of topical things from their books I don't think are things to be suspicious of.

I don't see how that would be possible. How many would be in a village, say a few hundred, thousand people? How would one goat possibly last everyone in it for 3 whole weeks? Would they even be able to have a single bite each (goats aren't that big)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...