Technology and Islam

[Frosty]

(salam)

(bismillah)

I feel that this is a topic that isn't usually discussed because a lot of people probably don't give serious thought to this topic and write it off as science-fiction however this is increasing becoming a very real possibility. I have always considered myself a Transhumanist (though I have recently been rethinking this position), I believe that technology has always been a gift of Allah (saw) to mankind. What I am talking about is using technology to overcome nature. Bum ear? We now have cochlear implants to fix that. Blind? Ripley's Believe It Or Not covered a story where a blind person had their eye replaced with a fake eye that could transmit images to their brain. I have even seen a documentary in which cells for organs and so on were being copied like a pece of paper or something to that effect (I can't remember exactly it's been awhile). There also exists theories and research which seeks to eliminate death. Not only that but there have been attempts in cloning animals and I know there exists ideas of humans creating life. Surely I haven't been the only one to read about nanotechnology! My question is what kind of implications do these advancements have religiously? If in the future we have the technology to eliminate death where would that leave the soul? What if someone remained alive indefinately, what kind of religious implications would that have? What if we could create life, what kind of religious implications would that have? Islam has long had a close and friendly relationship with science, would the ummah collectively start to draw the line in the sand as it were and say no, uh huh, this going to far or would we support these kind of "advancements," (to phrase it poorly)? I am sure we have all heard comments of "playing God."

Here is some resources if you are unfamiliar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

http://www.nanotech-now.com/transhuman-books.htm

http://humanityplus.org/

http://www.aleph.se/Trans/

Edited October 14, 2009 by Frosty

[Islamic_thought]

(salam)

(bismillah)

I feel that this is a topic that isn't usually discussed because a lot of people probably don't give serious thought to this topic and write it off as science-fiction however this is increasing becoming a very real possibility. I have always considered myself a Transhumanist (though I have recently been rethinking this position), I believe that technology has always been a gift of Allah (saw) to mankind. What I am talking about is using technology to overcome nature. Bum ear? We now have cochlear implants to fix that.

Blind? Ripley's Believe It Or Not covered a story where a blind person had their eye replaced with a fake eye that could transmit images to their brain. I have even seen a documentary in which cells for organs and so on were being copied like a pece of paper or something to that effect (I can't remember exactly it's been awhile). There also exists theories and research which seeks to eliminate death. Not only that but there have been attempts in cloning animals and I know there exists ideas of humans creating life. Surely I haven't been the only one to read about nanotechnology! My question is what kind of implications do these advancements have religiously?

If in the future we have the technology to eliminate death where would that leave the soul? What if someone remained alive indefinately, what kind of religious implications would that have? What if we could create life, what kind of religious implications would that have? Islam has long had a close and friendly relationship with science, would the ummah collectively start to draw the line in the sand as it were and say no, uh huh, this going to far or would we support these kind of "advancements," (to phrase it poorly)? I am sure we have all heard comments of "playing God."

Here is some resources if you are unfamiliar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

http://www.nanotech-now.com/transhuman-books.htm

http://humanityplus.org/

http://www.aleph.se/Trans/

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

In the Name of God, The most Beneficent, The most Merciful

Salaam 3leykoum Brother,

Mash Allah you've raised a good issue and may you be rewarded for thinking about these things.Basically from what I could pick up from what you wrote you have a couple main questions:

1. What kind of implications do technology advancements have on religion?

Brother your main points were curing blindness and stopping death. Now Brother to my limited knowledge curing blindness as far as my perceptions reach, won't have that big of an effect on religion more specifically, Islam. However, stopping people from dying or "curing" death. I'll tell you right now Brother it's impossible. Brother, I can't remember which hadith but there's a hadith, I'll para phrase here, "Even if you lock all the doors and windows in your house, death will still reach you the same way oxygen does" ---Something along the lines of that, can't really remember, but the point gets through. I'll Insh Allah post some ayats from the Qu'ran tomorrow that give further insight into this

However right now I can say, death is the ONLY thing in life we have certainty about. Whether I'm going to eat today I don't have certainty, whether I'll see my parents/wife today, I don't know. But it's CERTAIN you'll die. you have to remember, that all things belong to Allah (s.w.t) INCLUDING our souls (rooh). Insh Allah I'll post some ayats tomorrow.

2. What if we could create life?

hmm...this is interesting, depends what type of life you're talking about. And do you mean from copying the dna etc from other life forms or what, along the lines of cloning??? Just elaborate on this and Insh Allah I'll answer tomorrow.

3.As far as Science and Islam, where do we draw the line?

Another good question. To everything every action, no matter what there is a boundary. I can't think of an action that doesn't need a boundary. Now for Science, when most scientists don't follow a religion, sometimes ethical dillema's come into play e.g abortion. I'll give you a recent instance. Lately scientists are extremely close to be able to make the "perfect human." How they go about this is, before your baby is born, they can examine the dna and see whether the baby will be handsome etc, change the eye colour, height etc, look for genetical diseases fix them etc. Whether this is ethical or not is up for debate, but I'm sure you and I know the answer Insh Allah. So again, with Science of course there is a line to draw in terms of how ethical some of the things are, obviously abortion is not accepted in Islam, these are the kinds of things we are going to have to draw the line at.

Insh Allah I've naswered your questions, I'll come back tomorrow and post some more stuff Insh Allah. Good questions.

May we all firmly hold onto the rope of guidance of Allah (s.w.t)

[Frosty]

Mash Allah you've raised a good issue and may you be rewarded for thinking about these things.

I thank you for kind words brother.

Brother your main points were curing blindness and stopping death. Now Brother to my limited knowledge curing blindness as far as my perceptions reach, won't have that big of an effect on religion more specifically, Islam.

I didn't figure it would however what I wanted to point out, along with pointing out cochlear implants and nanotechnology is that the human body is slowly being robotic and the idea of cyborgs in the near future isn't science-fiction infact I have heard of a man who is trying to just that with his body and already has had a surgery to implant some sort of technology into his forearm. Not only that in Transhumanist circles there exists theoris in which the mind of a person could be downloaded and transfered to a robot.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/05/23/brain.download/

However, stopping people from dying or "curing" death. I'll tell you right now Brother it's impossible. Brother, I can't remember which hadith but there's a hadith, I'll para phrase here, "Even if you lock all the doors and windows in your house, death will still reach you the same way oxygen does" ---Something along the lines of that, can't really remember, but the point gets through. I'll Insh Allah post some ayats from the Qu'ran tomorrow that give further insight into this

I understand what texts may say however researchers are trying to create technology to cure death. Putting aside whether or not such a advancement is possible or not let's assume that they are possible and that such technology and so on could exist in the near future. My question is what would the ummah, Islam, etc. have to say about such practices.

hmm...this is interesting, depends what type of life you're talking about. And do you mean from copying the dna etc from other life forms or what, along the lines of cloning??? Just elaborate on this and Insh Allah I'll answer tomorrow.

I am talking about creating life by machines and technology and things of that nature.

You made some good points in 3. I look forward to more answers.

[lion]

This is certainly a deep subject brother and one post will not suffice for an answer, however just to wet the paddle on the creating life issue,I truly believe that we will create life, though Ill be honest with you , we will FAIL in perfecting such creation , and Allah swt will always be the best of creators.

but ultimately whatever we create ,we are merely secondary creators, as it is Allah swt that made all the elements found in the universe thus he is the one swt that gives each atom its ability to function.

[Frosty]

(bismillah)

This is certainly a deep subject brother and one post will not suffice for an answer,

I fully understand this what I want to create is some dialogue and see differing opinions and explore the topic.

but ultimately whatever we create ,we are merely secondary creators, as it is Allah swt that made all the elements found in the universe thus he is the one swt that gives each atom its ability to function.

This is sort of what I was thinking. That even though we could create life in say a factory or something it still wouldn't be the same as Allah (saw) in that he could create the universe just by muttering a word or something. However regardless of whether or not humans would be second creators I think the whole practice would raise a lot of issues.

[lion]

yes, theres many ethical issues that could be raised. Sadly, unethical cases will occur in labs allover the world, and at this very moment a human clone could be in the making. I remember one company that was cloning human embryos only to kill them soon after. they said that if they had not killed it, the embryo would turn into a baby if placed into a womb.

The main issue however, is how do we decide where the red line is when everyone has diffrent opinions.... without doubt this topic is sensitive to almost everyone.

[estakhrforala]

when my rice-bellied uncle eats with a fork i feel enraged!

[Frosty]

when my rice-bellied uncle eats with a fork i feel enraged!

I enjoyed that profusly.

[kadhim]

One interesting point with regards to AI. We are beginning to make significant progress toward understanding the basic principles of the functioning of the biochemical computer known as the human brain that enables our soul to link up and shape this world. Given that probably the best way to reconcile the Islamic/Judeo-Christian stories of creation of humans with the evidence of evolution is to say that when the brain's complexity and sophistication to hold a human soul, ensoulment happened (and perhaps this is the basis for ahadith about ensoulment at a particular stage of fetal development - only when the hardware was ready for the needed task), then the question occurs as to what happens when we ultimately build a computer brain with equivalent or greater sophistication to our own? Will God oblige to place a soul in this substrate that is capable of allowing a soul to use it as a seat? Does God's Justice in a way require this?

[Islamic_thought]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, The most Merciful

Salaam 3leykoum Brother,

Okay sorry about taking so long, yearly exams, didnt' realise they were so close. Anyway about the death this is taken from 3:156 "for God will cause such thoughts to become [119] a source of bitter regret in their hearts, since it is God who grants life and deals death. And God sees all that you do."

As you see, even if we do manage to "create" life, it is only by God's will that this life does come about and only by God's will someone lives or dies. But let's say supposedly Astaghfirullah, Astaghfirullah, we were able to avoid God's will. Islam would immediately draw the line, so fast. It is up to Allah to judge when we live and die, by Islam of course.

For the nanotech and stuff....hmm....that's a bit hard...I would guess it depends on the intention, e.g get metal arms, in order to kill or to help, I guess it would depend. But I guess generally Muslims wouldn't do it, unless for Jihad....

But ah.....if we put this into perspective, it's impossible we'll be able to avoid death, that's comparing our intelligence to God's infinite intelligence.....so impossible....

Cyborg stuff...don't think it'll really matter too much...

Mash Allah

May we all firmly hold onto the rope of guidance of Allah (s.w.t)

[MajiC]

Humans have the potential to make immense and unimaginable technological progress and the fact that God has enabled this potential for us should be considered a Divine gift and utilised as such. The only redlines in any scientific evolution for our species are ethical. As long as science and technology operates within Islamic moral and ethical guidelines then there will be an optimum balance between our technological and spiritual evolution. as well asour general wellbeing as societies and individuals.

Edited October 21, 2009 by MajiC

[AbdullaQ]

Great thread Mashallah.

About Creating Life:

We can already do this. It is called Marriage. We can start the biological process and create a Baby, but we can not put a soul into that baby.

Another thing: Are Animals liable in the court of Allah on the day of judgement? I dont have a definite answer, but I can not recall any evidence of an animal or an insect or a tree as being liable for sins.

What is a SOUL? We received very little of this knowledge from Allah. Do Angels have souls? Do Jin have souls? That answer we will never know (unless you know of a Hadith I do not know of).

I dont find any blasphemy in creating "life" because even trees are "alive" according to science. Is not this world, the World of "Fana2" (Ending) and the Hereafter the world of "Baqa2" (Staying)? So really, who is to say ANYTHING created in this world is ever really alive? Every creation in this world is a DOOMED creation. Only that which Allah has promised life in the hereafter will truly live.

Artificial Intelligence:

Going back to Animated objects classified as living. Is not a Tree programmed by Allah to live it's life according to predefined laws. If this, then that. AI is no different. AI is not life.

I will try to give an example. Let us assume there is a machine which job it is to crush garbage. This machine has an AI that figures out once the container is filled to crush the contents. Now let us assume a human was stuck in the machine and it was filled, thus it crushed the person. Is the AI liable? Will the machine be thrown to hell? Of course not. Now, let us improve that AI, install new hardware and now the Machine can figure out %100 if a Human is in the container. Unless something malfunctions, the machine will not crush a human. And if it does, the machine is still not liable.

A self learning AI, is really just a glorified example of what I mentioned. We can NOT program free will. AI simply means: If event is permissible according to predefined logic, then execute command. An AI really does not have a choice, and must do what it is pre-programmed to think is permissible. No way can an AI refuse to do what it is conditioned to do.

Let us assume we create an AI and they over populate the humans. Then one day we become their slaves. This would be a direct result of faulty programming on our part with NO BLAME on the machine.

About Prolonging Life and NanoTechnology:

Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta3ala) has already mentioned that people would love to live even to a thousand years. And then he said this will not save them from the fire.

Inshallah I am making sense hahaha :)

Peace.

Edited October 21, 2009 by AbdullaQ

[andamils]

Great thread Mashallah.

About Creating Life:

We can already do this. It is called Marriage. We can start the biological process and create a Baby, but we can not put a soul into that baby.

Another thing: Are Animals liable in the court of Allah on the day of judgement? I dont have a definite answer, but I can not recall any evidence of an animal or an insect or a tree as being liable for sins.

What is a SOUL? We received very little of this knowledge from Allah. Do Angels have souls? Do Jin have souls? That answer we will never know (unless you know of a Hadith I do not know of).

I dont find any blasphemy in creating "life" because even trees are "alive" according to science. Is not this world, the World of "Fana2" (Ending) and the Hereafter the world of "Baqa2" (Staying)? So really, who is to say ANYTHING created in this world is ever really alive? Every creation in this world is a DOOMED creation. Only that which Allah has promised life in the hereafter will truly live.

Artificial Intelligence:

Going back to Animated objects classified as living. Is not a Tree programmed by Allah to live it's life according to predefined laws. If this, then that. AI is no different. AI is not life.

I will try to give an example. Let us assume there is a machine which job it is to crush garbage. This machine has an AI that figures out once the container is filled to crush the contents. Now let us assume a human was stuck in the machine and it was filled, thus it crushed the person. Is the AI liable? Will the machine be thrown to hell? Of course not. Now, let us improve that AI, install new hardware and now the Machine can figure out %100 if a Human is in the container. Unless something malfunctions, the machine will not crush a human. And if it does, the machine is still not liable.

A self learning AI, is really just a glorified example of what I mentioned. We can NOT program free will. AI simply means: If event is permissible according to predefined logic, then execute command. An AI really does not have a choice, and must do what it is pre-programmed to think is permissible. No way can an AI refuse to do what it is conditioned to do.

Let us assume we create an AI and they over populate the humans. Then one day we become their slaves. This would be a direct result of faulty programming on our part with NO BLAME on the machine.

About Prolonging Life and NanoTechnology:

Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta3ala) has already mentioned that people would love to live even to a thousand years. And then he said this will not save them from the fire.

Inshallah I am making sense hahaha :)

Peace.

AbdullaQ, this is not AI. Allow me to introduce AI to your example.

The machine you design to crush does not simply crush, it sorts some of the material and is able to build and replicate itself using bits of it and with the help of another crushing machine. The replication though is always a combination of the two machines. When a person gets crushed all the machines in a wide area get destroyed and are sent to neighbouring districts. Now this would mean that new machines would be more likely to have developed some kind of system for avoiding crushing people since they would be more likely to survive. This introduces guilt.

Well we blame cancer when it takes over control of our cells and then our bodies. We sometimes put it down to faulty programming but most often not.

Interestingly people can develope an emotional bond with their computer. There have even been cases where computers have been shot by angry owners! Tell them they shouldn't blame their computers. It seems likely that computers will become ever more human like adn its possible to envisage a future where they really start being treated as human. The ethics of assaulting a human robot has also been addressed by some. What do you think, can an owner do whatever she wants with her robot machine including shooting it?

[AbdullaQ]

"What do you think, can an owner do whatever she wants with her robot machine including shooting it?"

Yes. It is only a machine.

Your example is no different than mine. The machine is still only preprogrammed to act in that certain way. If the programmer chose so, he would have not programmed guilt, and instead programmed murder logic. This would cause the machine to immediately crush if a human is present. The machine is still does not have free will. No AI can have free will.

Note: I am making this statement out of my knowledge in up to date software technologies. I am no expert, but programming is my area of study.