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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do Men Rape?

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Like "Perving is the first stage which is needed to be able to rape. If he doesn’t perve he can't rape because his biology will not allow him…"

Maybe rapists can only be aroused by sexual violence. And if a normal man is in a non-aroused state, and threatens a women with knife to undress so he can rape her, well then he will see the victim naked which will lead to arousal and allow him to perform the rape. He need not have perved at a half naked women beforehand.

Theat is what I have read - the rape is the arousal - and it is planned - not on impulse as in seeing an uncovered woman and jumping her.

The implements need to be obtained - duct tape, rope, knife.... these are not things that are normally carried around...and then scoping out a vulnerable in a secluded area or planning a kidnap or breaking into someone's home.

Where does atttaction to an individual come into this? No where.

Edited by Maryaam
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The interesting thing about these results is that the act of rape is mainly linked to the victims's vulnerablity, perceived willingness, and the perpetrators likilhood of being caught and in some case

Review of General Psychology American Psychological Association 2008, Vol. 12, No. 1, 86–97 Why Do Men Rape? An Evolutionary Psychological Perspective William F.

Theat is what I have read - the rape is the arousal - and it is planned - not on impulse as in seeing an uncovered woman and jumping her. The implements need to be obtained - duct tape, rope, knife..

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Salaam

Perving is the first stage which is needed to be able to rape. If he doesn’t perve he can't rape because his biology will not allow him…

This seems to be the essence of your argument that attraction/arousal is necessary for, or at least plays a part in rape.

I will repeat what i said earlier:

You are assuming that a man rapes because of being aroused by the woman who he will target. Who's to say he wasn't aroused before and through different means, and the victim was just there at the right place for him? To an extent rape has to be planned, because a rapist will always carefully chose their victim based on vulnerability etc. IF their looks are at all important, it would be secondary to this.

Do women who don’t expose themselves to men get raped often ?

I would say just as often as those who do expose themself. When it comes to rape, statistics are useless; especially those concerning Eastern soceities.

Edited by _jen_
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Now you are taking it personally. Fortunately, I stated it in my previous posts that my sympathies lie with the victim rather than with the rapist. Its just that you don't want to or just don't understand my point of view.

Salams

I have been personally attacked by this man in really vile and degrading ways since I was 19 on this forum - at which time I took it very personally. Because of this I worded my post very carefully.

I believe you are taking it personally though. I was not being personal with you - I got the impression that you were very light and not intense, but I think I read you wrong. Anyway, that is why I posted the way I did in the post you took exception to.

I think I understand your point of view - that men perve and then rape due to the fact that they are aroused by a woman they happen by and find attractive, and that if women tried harder to cover and not expose attractive features, they would be safe® - although you think that men are ultimately responsibe - right??.

I just disagree with it and tried to use the research as support. Did you read the article? I looked it up so I could learn - because reasons for rape were being mentioned on another thread. And the research, I posted on this thread, opened up other reasons for rape other than just an act of violence (which I previously, singularily, believed) but did not give any indication that a woman's presentation would be a cause or determining factor.

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Its silly to suggest rape has very little to do with sexual attraction, also its equally as silly to suggest rape is always based on it. Rapes happen for all kinds of varying reasons and motives. There are countless instances of rape in the under developed world where the sole reason behind commiting rape is purely sexual (Yes the way a woman dresses up in public definitely influences her chances in this part of the world), and men commit such acts knowing they would never get caught. On the other hand there are rapists who carefuly plan and execute rapes for all kinds non sexual reasons such as revenge or a just hate. Also I agree with Fiasco that an attractive woman is attractive regardless of the fact she is rocking a commando uniform.

Oh and why do men rape? Same reason that women would rape were they in a similar dominant position over their male counterparts.

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I have been personally attacked by this man in really vile and degrading ways since I was 19 on this forum - at which time I took it very personally.

I guess, I owe you an apology. unsure.gif

I sincerely apologize.........

..and I think I was perhaps wrong......forgive me for my nonsense......

Salams

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(salam)

Smiley I'll have to disagree with the notion that women dressed in army uniform are unattractive. I have personally come across many individuals who have not hesitated to pass comments such as "they look hot" about women dressed in army uniform. Just check out that Iranian Defense forum, they have a whole thread dedicated to female soldiers. I'm sure if you run a search on Google you'll probably find a lot more similar threads on different forums. As far as why women are raped; the guilty person in essence will always be the man [if you look at the incident as just the rape it self, and not considering any other outside factors]. I agree with Bonafide, you can't say that there is one set reason as to why men rape. There could be numerous reasons for different rape incidents. I just find it funny that just because some men are trying to suggest that lack of modesty and physical attraction could also play a part in triggering a rape incident, certain members seem to go on defense mode. I haven't come across one man here who has solely blamed the woman for the rape it self - they have only suggested that lack of modesty could play a role in triggering the incident. Whether it is on an individual basis or the fact that such lack of modesty is prevalent in society. Why would anyone want to out rule this factor? Perhaps not every rape takes place due to that, but surely it is one of the reasons that it does take place. On the contrary, I obviously also don't believe that all rapes take place because the women is not covered properly. This is obviously not true when you start to look at some of the countries and cities in the East. Why did Khalid bin Waleed rape Layla bint al-Minhal? I'm sure that her body was covered and this was during a conservative time in Arabia not too long after the Prophet (pbuh), but she was one of the most beautiful looking women in Arabia at the time. You don't come across other incidents where one would label Khalid as a rapist, but in this one-time incident one would assume he was so attracted to her looks so much that he couldn't control him self. Which of the 5 categories [from the first post] would you put Khalid in?

Wassalam

Edited by Aal-e-Imran
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salam.gif

Smiley I'll have to disagree with the notion that women dressed in army uniform are unattractive. I have personally come across many individuals who have not hesitated to pass comments such as "they look hot" about women dressed in army uniform. Just check out that Iranian Defense forum, they have a whole thread dedicated to female soldiers. I'm sure if you run a search on Google you'll probably find a lot more similar threads on different forums. As far as why women are raped; the guilty person in essence will always be the man [if you look at the incident as just the rape it self, and not considering any other outside factors]. I agree with Bonafide, you can't say that there is one set reason as to why men rape. There could be numerous reasons for different rape incidents. I just find it funny that just because some men are trying to suggest that lack of modesty and physical attraction could also play a part in triggering a rape incident, certain members seem to go on defense mode. I haven't come across one man here who has blamed the woman for the rape it self - they have only suggested that lack of modesty could play a role in triggering the incident. Whether it is on an individual basis or the fact that such lack of modesty is prevalent in society. Why do you want to out root this factor? Perhaps not every rape takes place due to that, but surely it is one of the reasons that it does take place. On the contrary, I obviously also don't believe that all rapes take plaec because the women is not covered properly. This is obviously not true when you start to look at some of the countries and cities in the East. Why did Khalid bin Waleed rape Layla bint al-Minhal? I'm sure that her body was covered and this was during a conservative time in Arabia not too long after the Prophet pbuh.gif, but she was one of the most beautiful looking women in Arabia at the time. You don't come across other incidents where one would label Khalid as a rapist, but in this one-time incident one would assume he was so attracted to her looks so much that he couldn't control him self. What of the 5 categories [from the first post] would you put Khalid in?

Wassalam

Wish I could explain it like that......

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"The interesting thing about these results is that the act of rape is mainly linked to the victims's vulnerablity, perceived willingness, and the perpetrators likilhood of being caught and in some cases arousal by violence."

Not just this, but also the fact that rape is used as a way of showing power and trying to dominate and humiliate the victim. This is not just the case in female rape, but also child and male rape. If anything the sexual assault rate in american prisons (if taken into account)is far higher than the combined rape outside prison (according to some sources as high as 600,000+ per year).

While scantily clad women invite perverted eyes and dirty comments, it's not a big factor in rape. As brother alimohammad was saying that 90 yr old women aren't raped, this is false. Women are raped regardless of their age and even how they look, and there are many such cases.

BTW all this talk of fertility etc is BS and rape doesn't happen due to some biological predisposition to pass on genes. Its simply a tool for domination and humiliation, and manifests itself when the perp is less likely to be caught. Often in child rape cases you will see that the victim is always threatened to not talk about it or fear consequences.

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http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html Kind of interesting results:

List of RAPE MYTHS

Sociology of Rape

University of Minnesota Duluth

Myth: Rape is sex.

Fact: Rape is experienced by the victims as an act of violence. It is a life-threatening experience. One out of every eight adult women has been a victim of forcible rape. (National Victim Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, 1992) While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives. Most rapists have access to a sexual partner. Gratification comes from gaining power and control and discharging anger. This gratification is only temporary, so the rapist seeks another victim.

Myth: Women incite men to rape.

Fact: Research has found that the vast majority of rapes are planned. Rape is the responsibility of the rapist alone. Women, children and men of every age, physical type and demeanor are raped. Opportunity is the most important factor determining when a given rapist will rape.

Myth: Rapists are non-white. Rapists are lower class. Rapists are "Criminal types".

Fact: Rapists that fit the myth are more likely to be prosecuted but a rapist can be anyone: doctor, policeman, clergyman, social worker or corporate president.

Myth: Men can't be raped.

Fact: There were approximately 20,000 sexual assaults of males ages 12 and over in the United States in 1991. (Bureau of Justice statistics, 1992)

Myth: Incest is rare.

Fact: Incest is common and happens in every community. An estimated 77% of reported sexual abusers are parents (57% of the total being natural parents), 16% are other relatives, and 6% are non-related. In addition, males are reported to be the abusers in 60 to 95% of cases. (Thoringer, School Psychology Review, 17 (4):614-636)

Myth: Sexual assaults are rare deviations and affect few people. After all, no one I know has been raped.

Fact: Sexual assaults are very common. Most likely, someone close to you has been profoundly affected by sexual assault. Not only are victims reluctant to discuss their assaults but many succeed in totally blocking the assault from conscious memory. However, the trauma remains and may come to the surface at another crisis or when the opportunity to discuss it with a sympathetic person arises. An estimated 155,000 women were raped each year between 1973 and 1987. (U.S. Department of Justice, 1991)

taliation.

Myth: Only "bad" women get raped.

Fact: No other crime victim is looked upon with the degree of suspicion and doubt as a victim of rape. Although there are numerous reasons why society has cast blame on the victims of rape, a major reason found in studies is that of a feeling of self protection. If one believes that the victim was responsible because she put herself in an unsafe position, such as being out late at night, drinking alcohol, dressing in a certain way, or "leading on" the rapist, then we are able to feel safer because "we wouldn't do those things." But, the basic fact remains that without consent, no means no, no matter what the situation or circumstances.

Myth: Rape is just unwanted sex and isn't really a violent crime.

Fact: Rape is a lot more than an unwanted sex act, it is a violent crime. Many rapists carry a weapon and threaten the victim with violence or death.

Myth: Sexual assault usually occurs between strangers.

Fact: By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.

Myth: Rape only happens to young attractive women.

Fact: Rape can and does strike anyone at anytime. Age, social class, ethnic group and has no bearing on the person a rapist chooses to attack. Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and / or acts does not influence the rapists choice of victims. His decision to rape is based on how easily he perceives his target can be intimidated. Rapists are looking for available and vulnerable targets.

Statistics were obtained from various sources including the study Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center, The Federal Bureau of Investigations and the National Crime Survey.

Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.

Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.

Myth:Most rapists only rape one time.

FACT Most rapists rape again, and again, and again - until caught.

Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.

FACTRapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.

Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.

FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.

Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.

FACT Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.

Myth: Only young, pretty women are assaulted.

FACT Survivors range in age from infancy to old age, and their appearance is seldom a consideration. Assailants often choose victims who seem most vulnerable to attack: old persons, children, physically or emotionally disabled persons, substance abusers and street persons. Men are also attacked.

Edited by Maryaam
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I guess, I owe you an apology. unsure.gif

I sincerely apologize.........

..and I think I was perhaps wrong......forgive me for my nonsense......

Salams

It is OK - I think it was just a miscommunication. It is hard to judge tone when there is no sound or visual. I find it especially hard for some reason. :)

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Rape is an act of sexualized violence. Because it is sexual, arousal must be present, but the arousal stems more from the act than the rapist's attraction to the victim. A few studies have reported that soldiers often experience the distinct physical sign of arousal that men get (I really don't know how else to say it w/o becoming too graphic here) while killing. Is there something sexy about dead bodies of either gender? Sex is first in our heads and THEN in our bodies and if we learn to link arousal to any feeling, person, place or thing then that person place or thing will become sexual stimuli. Killing is power, I believe that men, are naturally aroused by asserting power just as women are aroused by watching male power (as long as they feel safe).

One of the common threads that runs through all of the research that the OP noted was power. Rapists are men who use sexualized violence to assert power either to make up for what they feel they lack (the ugly guy mentioned in the first example ) or taking what they feel they deserve because of their station (the kibr infested psychopath). Men rape in war, they rape other men, they rape women, they rape children of both genders. It is a means of humiliating the enemy it is a statement of domination and assertion of power. Rape is about power, as is all violence.

I do think that the assertion that how women dress and behave is unrelated to rape is false. Modest dress and behavior ARE a source of protection, it's a kind of extreme naive to assert otherwise and I'll explain why in the next few lines. It is equally naive and dangerous to assume that modest dress and behavior are a complete protection from sexualized violence and that a woman who is the victim of rape was always at fault. This issue of dress and behavior is NOT an issue of fault, btw because it does not matter what someone does or does not do rape is a crime and a sin and the criminal/sinner is 100% accountable for his own crime/sin.

Sister Smiley mentioned this issue of availability, as stranger rape is often a crime of opportunity. If a man is weighing the cost/benefit of rape, he is going to take into account the risk of this rape costing him life or limb. If women who dress a certain way are percieved to be under protection then the cost of raping her may be assumed to be higher her dress is a form of attention. Allah (swt) tells us that we are supposed to obey Islamic laws of dress so that we "may be known and not molested" (translation from memory). Allah (swt) knows that human dynamic and has made it clear in the Qur'an. The dress and behavior of the potential victim does sometimes have something to do with placing them in a more or less vulnerable position. If I walk around in certain areas with very expensive clothing and large amounts of money visible, I am more likely to be robbed. The theif is 100% accountable for their crime/sin, but I placed myself in a more vulnerable position by exposing my wealth. I did not deserve to be robbed, but the reality is that I need to take some precautions to safeguard what is rightfully mine.

Edited by AnotherUmmAli
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Excellent article Maryaam. These kind of myths need to be corrected in our muslim and Eastern cultures.

Aal E Imran

lack of modesty and physical attraction could also play a part in triggering a rape incident

No way does modesty "trigger" rape; not even partly. Modesty is secondary to everything else such as vulnerability. Maryaam's post put it nicely:

While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives.
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rape is more in the western societies.

Rape is greatly greatly under reported in Eastern societies; which means that Eastern men think they can get away with it. This combined with the fact that free mixing doesnt happen so much - probably means it happens more in Eastern countries.

Nobody knows for sure though as the statistics regarding rape are useless.

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Rape is greatly greatly under reported in Eastern societies; which means that Eastern men think they can get away with it. This combined with the fact that free mixing doesnt happen so much - probably means it happens more in Eastern countries.

Nobody knows for sure though as the statistics regarding rape are useless.

I agree here, rape is prominent in all societies, it is just an unavoidable thing,however, IMO and this is just my opinion, it probably doesn't occur to the degree it does in western countries.

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Whooah this thread has exploded in a few hours I have been off Shiachat.

Let us assume that the study was done in the West, and as it suggests, lets also accept that women's dress and presentation do not play a role in inviting rapists. Now, we recognise the fact that women's modesty is perceived differently in the East than in the West. A woman who is dressed 'normally' in the West will be considered almost 'naked' in many Eastern places. One can hypothesize on these bases that 'improperly' dressed women in Eastern countries are more likely to be raped than those who are conservatively dressed. As far as I know, not a single local study holds this to be true and those who are supporting this claim have not provided any evidence of that. Actually, the reasons why men rape in Western countries are equally at work in Eastern countries. The biggest factors are victim's vulnerability and fewer chances of detection or punishment. Keeping aside the different types of rapists, their motivations for rape and other reasons, let's see how these two emboldened factors unfold themselves in the East.

In comparison to most Western countries, you have much more chance of a woman getting harassed/raped if she is seen alone in the East regardless of the way she's dressed. It's because women living/travelling alone in the East are perceived as much more 'at risk' than those of them in the West. Introduce into the equation the fact that state security institutions like police etc are generally also incompetent and so in many cases there is small chance of being punished unless the victim happens to be politically influential. These two reasons explain a plethora of, at least, Pakistani rape case which I read in the local dailies.

It is true that, in the East - Muslim East to be precise - women who do not dress as conservatively as per norms of the society are generally perceived as having loose character and even 'taxis' [slang for prostitutes]. This can lead men to perv on such women. This can also make them popular among groups of men. Such women may also get many invites for romance/sex. But her 'improper' dress, even if she's half naked, will hardly lead to rape UNLESS the woman also happens to be in a situation where she is alone, around men, vulnerable in that setting, and hence likely to get raped. Just think about it. Even in this case of rape, it is NOT the dress which caused it - but her vulnerability. She'd get the same treatment even if was dressed in an abaya.

Excellent article Maryaam. These kind of myths need to be corrected in our muslim and Eastern cultures.

Aal E Imran

No way does modesty "trigger" rape; not even partly. Modesty is secondary to everything else such as vulnerability. Maryaam's post put it nicely:

+1

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(salam)

As I previously said there are numerous reasons for why men rape. Power, domination, ego, peer pressure all are reasons. Why are we so hesitant to admit that lack of modesty in a society in which a person is brought up could also be one reason? How on earth and on what basis are you out ruling this factor completely? How can you doubt the fact that the way women are portrayed in the society today as sexual objects could not have anything to do with rape? Let's hear it from one rapist's mouth:

Ted Bunny [before being executed] says there is no doubt that everyone of them was deeply involved in pornography, without question, without exception http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5km7v_ted-bundys-last-interview_news

Transcript of interview: http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Catholic_Morality/Confessions-of-a-murderous-rapist.htm

And pornography is all about women dressing modestly. . .

Groth (1979) emphasizes the psychodynamic function of sex in rape, arguing that rapists’ aggressive needs are expressed through sexuality. In other words, rape is a means to an end. We argue, however, that rapists view the act as an end in itself and that sexual access most obviously demonstrates the link between sex and rape. Rape as a means of sexual access also shows the deliberate nature of this crime, When a woman is unwilling or seems unavailable for sex, the rapist can seize what isn’t volunteered. In discussing his decision to rape, one man made this clear.

All the guys wanted to [Edited Out] her . . . a real fox, beautiful shape. She was a beautiful woman and I wanted to see what she had.

The attitude that sex is a male entitlement suggests that when a woman says “no,” rape is a suitable method of conquering the “offending” object. If, for example, a woman is picked up at a party or in a bar or while hitchhiking (behavior which a number of the rapists saw as a signal of sexual availability), and the woman later resists sexual advances, rape is presumed to be justified. The same justification operates in what is popularly called “date rape.”

. . .

Gang date rape was another popular variation. In this pattern. one member of the gang would make a date with the victim. Then without her knowledge or concern, she would be driven to a predetermined location and forcibly raped by each member of the group. One young man revealed this practice was so much a part of his group’s recreational routine. they had rented a house for the purpose. From his perspective, the rape was justified because “usually the girl had a bad reputation, or we knew it was what she liked.”

During his interview, another offender confessed to participating in 20 or 30 such ‘gang dates rapes because his driver’s license had been revoked making it difficult for him to "get girls.” Sixty percent of the time, he claimed, they were girls known to do this kind of thing,” but “frequently, the girls didn’t want to have sex with all of us.” In such cases, he said. “It might start out as rape but, then, they (the women) would quiet down and none ever reported it to the police.” He was convicted for a gang rape. which he described as ‘the ultimate thing I ever did,’ because unlike his other rapes, the victim, in this case, was a stranger whom the group abducted as she walked home from the library. He felt the group’s past experience with ‘gang date” rape had prepared them for this crime in which the victim was blindfolded and driven to the mountains where, though it was winter, she was forced to remove her clothing. Lying on the snow, she was raped by each of the four men several times befare being abandoned near a farm house. This young man continued to believe that if he had spent the night with her, rather than abandoning her, she would not have reported to the police.”

Violence Against Women

-----------

Blaming the Victim

Traditionally, support for the allegation that women precipitate rape came from victimology, a subfield of criminology, in which the victim’s contribution to the genesis of crime was the subject of study. Recently, victimology has also focused on crime from the victim’s perspective.

Criminologist Hans von Hentig was one of the first to articulate the victimologists’ position. In a work published in 1940, he states that “the human victim in many instances seems to lead the evildoer actively into temptation. The predator is—by varying means—prevailed to advance against the prey” (p. 303). If there are born criminals, he argues, there are born victims, who are self-harming and self- destructive. Central to his thesis is the question of why a specific victim is chosen. In the case of incest and rape, according to von Hentig, seduction plays a prominent role, leading him to question whether rape may not be considered a case of “the oversexed on the oversexed” (p. 209).

The work of sociologist Menachem Amir is a more contemporary example of the application of victimology to rape. Amir (1972) makes a distinction between victim-precipitating behaviors through acts of commission and through acts of omission. Commissive behavior includes “last moment retreating from sexual advancement” or “agreeing voluntarily to drink or ride with a stranger” (p. 155). Acts of omission include failure to take preventive measures, such as failing to react strongly enough to sexual suggestions, or “when her outside appearance arouses the offender’s advances which are not staved off” (p. 155). Amir states that, under these circumstances, “the victim becomes functionally responsible for the offense by entering upon and following a course that will provoke males to commit crimes” (p. 155).

Thus Amir argues that attention should be focused upon the victim-offender relationship, the moral character of the victim, and the “victim’s personality makeup which may orient her toward the offender and the offense” (p. 132). While the field of victimology can be accused of overidentifying with offenders, in the case of rape, psychoanalytic theory provided the theoretical basis that could be used to discredit victims.

In psychoanalytic terms, the core female personality consists of three characteristics: narcissism, masochism, and passivity. The masochistic element accounts for women’s alleged unconscious desire to be raped. In her summary of the psychoanalytic view of the female personality, Homey (1973, 24) states:

The specific satisfactions sought and found in female sex life and motherhood are of a masochistic nature. The content of the early sexual wishes and fantasies concerning the father Is the desire to be mutilated, that Is castrated by him. Menstruation has the hidden connotation of a masochistic experience. What the woman secretly desires in intercourse is rape and violence, or in the mental sphere, humiliation... . This swinging in the direction of masochism is part of the woman’s anatomical destiny.

While the psychoanalytic view of women has been widely criticized for its obvious bias (for example, see Chesler 1972), with the exception of Albin (1977), no one has noted how easily it can be translated into a rationalization for male sexual aggressive behavior.

In the psychoanalytic literature, victims of sexual violence have frequently been sorted into categories on the basis of personal or circumstantial characteristics. Littner (1973, 23), for example, distinguishes between “true victims,” those who do not consciously or unconsciously wish to be raped, and “professional victims,” those who have an inner masochistic need to be raped. According to Littner, “professional victims” have an inner need to be sexually molested or attacked even though consciously they are totally unaware of their motivation. Because of these unconscious desires, they “unwittingly cooperate with the rapist in terms of covertly making themselves available to the rapist” (p. 28). It is perhaps unnecessary to point out that the victims of other types of crimes are rarely alleged to have an inner need to be victimized, nor are they routinely accused of causing the crimes committed against them.

Understanding Sexual Violence: a study of convicted rapists by Diana Scully

-----------

One rapist, responding to two researchers’ requests for interviews wrote the following:

Mr. Sussman, I’m not a rapist (per say) as you think, what happen six (6) years ago I would like to forget it. But I would like to add something to your research. Both person that was involved in my case’s brought the rape on themselves. . . .

And In the other case, I would say I was more the victim In this case, this person came to the door, dressed with a towel wrapped around them. I told the person to go and get some clothes on, she went into her bedroom to put some clothes on, but she put the clothes on so I could see her.
I was In the other room watching her more or less so she couldn’t do nothing funny, and when she started putting on clothes, there she was right in front of my eyes.
In both cases the person’s brought it on there selves, running and screaming,
and not fully dressed when answering the door.
(Sussman & Bordwell, 1981, p. 198)

Such denial by rapists is common. Their own adherence to attitudes that denigrate women and rationalize rape through the behavior of the woman, or the dress of the woman, or by the very fact that the woman is physically capable of having sex all serve to justify, in the mind of the rapist, that effectively, a rape did not occur. Another rapist interviewed by Sussman and Bordwell (1981) spoke of the "Law of the Rapist":

If they conduct thierself as a lady, clean-cut and what have you, they don’t have to worry about any of this. If they conduct theirself as a hussy, then they got ft coming by the law of the rapist. (p.6)

So it is that this rapist believed that some women actually deserve to be raped. This type of mentality serves to dichotomize women into two groups: Some women are put on a pedestal and are to be protected by men from other men; others are considered [Edited Out]s and are viewed as deserving of rape.

Rape, the misunderstood crime

Wassalam

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Even in this case of rape, it is NOT the dress which caused it - but her vulnerability. She'd get the same treatment even if was dressed in an abaya.

Sure, but you cannot say her dress would never play a role. Just as a woman's vulnerability is one factor, so can her appearance be. Not all such men would rape anything and everything so long as she was a female under that abaya. They would definitely want to check her out, in certain circumstances, even if her face alone was exposed, it could factor into the eventual turn of events. The woman does not have to be dressed in a very immodest way, but anything short of an abaya can certainly play a role. No one here is saying that the man who commits rape is in anyway less responsible due to the way the victim dresses. They are merely stating that the way she dresses might very well factor into their decision to a certain degree and this is very much possible. Having said all that, a woman dressed modestly might very well be a more enticing target than someone dressed in totally the opposite fashion.

But you have to recognize the fact that all such possibilities exist.

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He said "Modesty will not stop you from being raped but it will significantly decrease the chances that you will become a rape target… remember that rape is sex and he needs to be attracted to you and for him to be attracted to you, you need to be exposed to him, and the catalyst for the reaction is the slutty exposure which arouses him."

Like "Perving is the first stage which is needed to be able to rape. If he doesn't perve he can't rape because his biology will not allow him…"

Maybe rapists can only be aroused by sexual violence. And if a normal man is in a non-aroused state, and threatens a women with knife to undress so he can rape her, well then he will see the victim naked which will lead to arousal and allow him to perform the rape. He need not have perved at a half naked women beforehand.

Your tone could perhaps use a bit of polish. You're are entreched in your own personal view point and have refused to consider an opposing narrative.

If you read the brother's post again objectively, you'll find there are valid points being made. Attraction does play a role. It is not the only reason, but it is a factor that contributes. What you and Maryaam have elucidated is also all very true, but your refusal to accept the possibility that attraction plays a role is just denying facts.

What seems to be implicit in what you're saying and what you're side of the argument is saying is that somehow if attraction plays a role, then this must automatically place some of the blame with the victim! There's a defensiveness in your tone.

Edited by Fiasco
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(salam)

No one here is saying that the man who commits rape is in anyway less responsible due to the way the victim dresses. They are merely stating that the way she dresses might very well factor into their decision to a certain degree and this is very much possible
What you and Maryaam have elucidated is also all very true, but your refusal to accept the possibility that attraction plays a role is just denying facts.

What seems to be implicit in what you're saying and what you're side of the argument is saying is that somehow if attraction plays a role, then this must automatically place some of the blame with the victim! There's a defensiveness in your tone.

I think some people on ShiaChat feel that as soon as there is a differing opinion [especially when it is in essence a female vs male argument] that the battle of Jamal as been initiated. That there is only one set correct point of view and the other is totally batil. People go on defense mode and any other differing view besides their is seen as an attack on the victim. But this is nothing new on ShiaChat. . .

Wassalam

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Rape is greatly greatly under reported in Eastern societies; which means that Eastern men think they can get away with it. This combined with the fact that free mixing doesnt happen so much - probably means it happens more in Eastern countries.

Nobody knows for sure though as the statistics regarding rape are useless.

Rape is also under reported in the Western World. In the U.S for example, women in the army are pressured not to bring charges against rapists who themselves are in the army.

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Your tone could perhaps use a bit of polish. You're are entreched in your own personal view point and have refused to consider an opposing narrative.

If you read the brother's post again objectively, you'll find there are valid points being made. Attraction does play a role. It is not the only reason, but it is a factor that contributes. What you and Maryaam have elucidated is also all very true, but your refusal to accept the possibility that attraction plays a role is just denying facts.

What seems to be implicit in what you're saying and what you're side of the argument is saying is that somehow if attraction plays a role, then this must automatically place some of the blame with the victim! There's a defensiveness in your tone.

Do you have any evidence for your "facts"? I have not found any evidence to support what you are saying - pretty much the opposite actually in both the research based on numerous studies and in the work done in Minnesota - but I would be very interested if there is other info.

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ali imran people rape children and animals too. i guess those children should cover up being children, becuase its a factor in getting raped, and animals shoudl try to be more human-like. and those daughters who get raped by their fathers should try to be less daughter-like around their fathers. or a man who is raped by other men should cover up the fact that hes a man?

the reason why those who intelligently talk about rape rule out the factor of a womans dress is because considering it in the manner of modesty, shifts the blame onto the woman. it suggests that there had to be something wrong with what the woman (victim) did or acted or dressed that contributed to her getting raped. it also feeds an absolute lie, which is that clothes protect a woman against rape. why you cannot see this is a mystery to me..

what really disturbs me are the males and females in this thread who are trying to understand why a person would rape, and finding some forms of rape more acceptable than others. e.g. simply a loss of control because the victim was too enticing.

you really do not achieve anything positive by trying to push the argument that women's modesty has a role in rape. certainly not in this setting.

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Sure, but you cannot say her dress would never play a role. Just as a woman's vulnerability is one factor, so can her appearance be. Not all such men would rape anything and everything so long as she was a female under that abaya. They would definitely want to check her out, in certain circumstances, even if her face alone was exposed, it could factor into the eventual turn of events. The woman does not have to be dressed in a very immodest way, but anything short of an abaya can certainly play a role. No one here is saying that the man who commits rape is in anyway less responsible due to the way the victim dresses. They are merely stating that the way she dresses might very well factor into their decision to a certain degree and this is very much possible. Having said all that, a woman dressed modestly might very well be a more enticing target than someone dressed in totally the opposite fashion.

But you have to recognize the fact that all such possibilities exist.

Do you think it is possible the culture is playing a role in your thoughts. We are so innundated in modesty and the evils of lack of modesty that perhaps we see things that are not there. I am open to this possiblity - but I have seen no evidence to support the claim despite lots and lots of research.

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(salam)

I think some people on ShiaChat feel that as soon as there is a differing opinion [especially when it is in essence a female vs male argument] that the battle of Jamal as been initiated. That there is only one set correct point of view and the other is totally batil. People go on defense mode and any other differing view besides their is seen as an attack on the victim. But this is nothing new on ShiaChat. . .

Wassalam

I agree with the Battle of Jamal mentality! and have more than participated in them.. :P

BUT - in this case - I have stuck to the research articles...and have had no contradictory research - just thoughts, opinions and cultural overview - which is fine - but it is stated using the word "fact" - which is in error.

i would love to see an accredited research article that states that rape is an extension of lust.

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(salam)

ali imran people rape children and animals too. i guess those children should cover up being children, becuase its a factor in getting raped, and animals shoudl try to be more human-like. and those daughters who get raped by their fathers should try to be less daughter-like around their fathers. or a man who is raped by other men should cover up the fact that hes a man?

I didn't expect anything else from you. How does suggesting being modest equal women covering up the fact that they are women? I never knew hijab hid the fact that you are a woman. Twisting the interpretations and making baseless assumptions about statements made by others and trying to take low blows against them is something you've been doing for years now. It's about time you grew up.

what really disturbs me are the males and females in this thread who are trying to understand why a person would rape, and finding some forms of rape more acceptable than others. e.g. simply a loss of control because the victim was too enticing.

The only disturbing thing on this thread are individuals like you who start to assume that people in one way or another are some how either solely blaming the victim for the rape or justifying the crime committed by the rapist.

you really do not achieve anything positive by trying to push the argument that women's modesty has a role in rape. certainly not in this setting.

No one is trying to push the argument as the only deciding factor for the cause of rape. Most of us have all agreed that there are numerous reasons for rape, but unfortunately individuals like you feel insecure when it is mentioned that lack of modesty is also one of those reasons. But of course, who am I to suggest this. You are the experienced grandma on the website, you must be right. Modesty is completely trivial when it comes to rape, I don't know why Islam places so much emphasize on practicing it. You'd still feel secure without it.

Wassalam

Edited by Aal-e-Imran
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I agree with the Battle of Jamal mentality!

i dont know if you want to agree with ali imran's view that its like the battle of jamal. the battle of jamal was led by aisha (the female) on one side (she was on a camel, hence the name of the battle), and imam ali (the male) on the other side. i dont know about you, but i dont see myself as an aisha, nor do i smile upon anyone who compares women who oppose him (e.g. ali imran) to her.

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i dont know if you want to agree with ali imran's view that its like the battle of jamal. the battle of jamal was led by aisha (the female) on one side (she was on a camel, hence the name of the battle), and imam ali (the male) on the other side. i dont know about you, but i dont see myself as an aisha, nor do i smile upon anyone who compares women who oppose him (e.g. ali imran) to her.

I got it - it was the mentality of men vs women - in general that I was referring to and I think he was too

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Sure, but you cannot say her dress would never play a role. Just as a woman's vulnerability is one factor, so can her appearance be. Not all such men would rape anything and everything so long as she was a female under that abaya. They would definitely want to check her out, in certain circumstances, even if her face alone was exposed, it could factor into the eventual turn of events. The woman does not have to be dressed in a very immodest way, but anything short of an abaya can certainly play a role. No one here is saying that the man who commits rape is in anyway less responsible due to the way the victim dresses. They are merely stating that the way she dresses might very well factor into their decision to a certain degree and this is very much possible. Having said all that, a woman dressed modestly might very well be a more enticing target than someone dressed in totally the opposite fashion.

But you have to recognize the fact that all such possibilities exist.

There should be some evidence if the way woman dress plays a role in rapes. Otheriwse, it is no more than a personal opinion and one's cultural bias. In all likelihood, taking into account exceptions, if rapes frequently occur due to women appearance then there should be some indication of it in so many case studies which make up academic researches like the one in the opening post. Actually, the factor of women's appearance should be stronger in the West where women often dress up in an immodest way not in the East. We still have all the work ahead of us if that is the case or how do you explain the reasons for rape in the East? As it stands, it is not one of the functioning reasons why rapes take place. A half naked or scantily dressed woman who is raped, at the same time, has to be vulnerable enough and the chances of being caught minimal, among other things, for the rape to happen. Many Western women who go on a night out in flashy clothes are raped because they get drunk, loose consciousness, often alone with men and thus vulnerable to all nasty things. I think women's appearance alone doesn't play any role in rape.

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Rape is also under reported in the Western World. In the U.S for example, women in the army are pressured not to bring charges against rapists who themselves are in the army.

Definately. But you will find this happens to a greater extent in the East due to the different family and cultural values.

One thing that nobody is taking into consideration is that the majority of rape happens where the victim is known personally to the rapist. Look up the statistics; a huge proportion of the ones that ARE reported happen between aquaintences/family etc, despite the likely under reporting of this kind of rape.

This alone proves that opportunity, vulnerability and being in a position of trust are the reasons for rape. Dress plays no part.

Edited by _jen_
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Do you think it is possible the culture is playing a role in your thoughts. We are so innundated in modesty and the evils of lack of modesty that perhaps we see things that are not there. I am open to this possiblity - but I have seen no evidence to support the claim despite lots and lots of research.

Most certainly you have studied this topic in much greater detail from a scholarly perspective. I am trying to look at this from a common sense point of view. Also my thoughts are based on limited number of cases talked about in Pakistan mostly. And this is precisely why I suggested that a women's appearance or dress factoring into rape is a possibility. Culture would definitely play a role in my thoughts but I assure you I am just trying to play out all the possibilities and not reach conclusions. I don’t see why evidence is necessary here, even though I can guarantee you its definitely present. Appearance and dress CAN play a role just like COUNTLESS other factors, this in no way shifts the blame over to the victim. Cary must have just blindly ignored my post. It’s not an issue of women being modest; modesty can itself be very enticing. It’s just a matter of accepting countless factors that can come into play here and not TOTALLY ruling specific ones out since they are not mentioned in formal research reports. I just dont understand why we need scholarly evidence to support this. This is really common sense.

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Most certainly you have studied this topic in much greater detail from a scholarly perspective. I am trying to look at this from a common sense point of view. Also my thoughts are based on limited number of cases talked about in Pakistan mostly. And this is precisely why I suggested that a women's appearance or dress factoring into rape is a possibility. Culture would definitely play a role in my thoughts but I assure you I am just trying to play out all the possibilities and not reach conclusions. I don’t see why evidence is necessary here, even though I can guarantee you its definitely present. Appearance and dress CAN play a role just like COUNTLESS other factors, this in no way shifts the blame over to the victim. Cary must have just blindly ignored my post. It’s not an issue of women being modest; modesty can itself be very enticing. It’s just a matter of accepting countless factors that can come into play here and not TOTALLY ruling specific ones out since they are not mentioned in formal research reports. I just dont understand why we need scholarly evidence to support this. This is really common sense.

Why I have a problem with this is that everything I read says that rapes are planned and then the victim is sought.. Lust (of hijab, no hijab, ankles whatever :P ) is more impulsive.

I think that a modest plain lookin hijabi with her head down would be more of a target than a not so modest, better looking hijabi that meets your eyes. Vulnerablity makes more sense to me.

Anything is possible and maybe some guy has been lusting after a person for some time and then the opportunity comes up and he strikes. But I dont think that is common.

Edit:

I think this is one area that we should look to research as there is so much bias and taught thought about these issues in particular...esp when you have women tradtionally punished for being raped - both formally and informally - from brutal "punishments" to outcast status. This is well known that this happens.

Edited by Maryaam
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Why I have a problem with this is that everything I read says that rapes are planned and then the victim is sought.. Lust (of hijab, no hijab, ankles whatever :P ) is more impulsive.

I think that a modest plain lookin hijabi with her head down would be more of a target than a not so modest, better looking hijabi that meets your eyes. Vulnerablity makes more sense to me.

Anything is possible and maybe some guy has been lusting after a person for some time and then the opportunity comes up and he strikes. But I dont think that is common.

Edit:

I think this is one area that we should look to research as there is so much bias and taught thought about these issues in particular...esp when you have women tradtionally punished for being raped - both formally and informally - from brutal "punishments" to outcast status. This is well known that this happens.

Yeah I agree with everything here. Someone who talks sense :yaali:

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(salam)

i dont know if you want to agree with ali imran's view that its like the battle of jamal. the battle of jamal was led by aisha (the female) on one side (she was on a camel, hence the name of the battle), and imam ali (the male) on the other side. i dont know about you, but i dont see myself as an aisha, nor do i smile upon anyone who compares women who oppose him (e.g. ali imran) to her.

Well since the mods didn't want to delete this, I thought I should make it clear again. Could you also please refer me to the post where I attacked you? Last I saw, you some how wrote your own tafseer on my reference to the Battle of Jamal [which actually consisted of more men than women] as some how a battle of women vs men. I was actually suggesting the complete opposite, that these debates can not be taken as the battle of Jamal, as some sort of battle between haq and batil; and that we need to be open to the opinions of others and not get so defensive when we hear a differing opinion. Then you concluded in your tafseer that some how I was referring to you or other females on the thread as someone who possessed the qualities of Ayesha. It was only after that I felt the need to make it clear that this is not the case, because you and her both obviously have some very distinct characteristics - martial status being one of them :).

Edited by Aal-e-Imran
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