Italian MPs to consider ban on full Islamic dress

[Irishman]

http://en.rian.ru/world/20091007/156383490.html

17:3707/10/2009

MOSCOW, October 7 (RIA Novosti) - Italian lawmakers are set to consider a ban on the public wearing of Islamic burqas - clothing covering the entire face and body - by women, local media said.

Members of Italy's second-largest Northern League party have drafted a bill amending the 1975 law that prohibits people from wearing clothing that makes their identification impossible.

Italian parliamentarians aim to extend the ban to garments "worn for reasons of religious affiliation."

Roberto Cota of the Northern League has dismissed accusations that the lawmakers' proposal is "racist", and urged for the law to be made "equal for everyone."

Opposition parliamentarians have denounced the proposal as "unconstitutional" saying it infringes on religious freedom.

Italy, which has over a million Muslims, has become the second European nation to consider such a ban, after France announced earlier this month that it was also considering banning burqas.

In Egypt, parliament has rejected a request from two opposition lawmakers to seek the dismissal of the country's top Islamic cleric over his planned ban on women's veils at a top university, Al Jazeera reported on Wednesday.

[guest 34193]

Members of Italy's second-largest Northern League party have drafted a bill amending the 1975 law that prohibits people from wearing clothing that makes their identification impossible.

So will they ban the Carnival of Venice then?

[Irishman]

So will they ban the Carnival of Venice then?

Email them and ask :D

[PeaceLoving]

My mother, who is Catholic, tells me that the nuns are no longer required to wear the habit.

It seems the time is near when Catholic nuns will be wearing beach dress and miniskirts. Only a hundred and twenty years ago, one could not see above the ankles of European and American women. But, thanks partly to Hollywood and co, morality in the Western world has declined well beyond boundaries set by Christ. The fragile excuse is that Christ never spoke on dress codes. But when did he say that everyone was permitted to kiss and smooch everyone else - as promoted by Hollywood ? In fact, he completely disapproved of laxity in sexual codes. There is no record of his approval of seductive appearances either. If Christians were to derive meaning from his teachings implicitly, it is clear he had a code on sex and related subjects, such as the dress code, very similar to Islam. For example, his statement that for anyone looking at a woman lustfully, it would be better to gouge out both his eyes and enter blind into the gates of heaven than to be thrown into hell with both eyes. Is it possible to be hanging on to a woman's breasts without lustful feelings ? I don't think so. But Hollywood and co would like us to believe it is. Jesus's statement goes a long way in demolishing the values on sex in Christian nations.

In their hatred for Islam, Western nations are furthering their own irreversible grand slide into turpitude and immorality. Wealth and power does not conceal decay. Affluence in the West seems to be the criterion for all success. But it is not the criterion of success in the next life. But Christian nations are living in a dream world of their own. And I am sure Christ is watching. I doubt if Christ ever said explicitly or implicitly that God is so forgiving that no one will go to hell.

I have little doubt that many of the devils in our modern society will be spending quite some time in not so comfortable temperatures. I am not saying Muslims will not go to hell. Sure, many of us will. But that is a separate topic. Here we are talking about the obsession in the Western world to bring Islam to its knees.

Islam did not die even with the powerful bid to destroy the family of the Prophet in the battle of Karbala fifty years after the Prophet's death.

And once again, Islam will survive just as the holy and noble name of Imam Hussain lives on.

[baradar_jackson]

Good...

I wish all European governments would do this

That way their criticisms of dress codes in some Muslim countries will be hypocritical

[Rubaiyat]

Inshallah, let them not only ban the burqa but also every form of Hijab to increase polarization in one of the most vibrant and growing Islamic communities in Europe.

[AbuHope]

So what if a woman decides to wear it anyway? Jailtime? For wearing something? ... Uh-Huh

[Irishman]

So what if a woman decides to wear it anyway? Jailtime? For wearing something? ... Uh-Huh

As opposed to jailtime for not wearing something in other countries? ... Uh-Huh

[Irishman]

My mother, who is Catholic, tells me that the nuns are no longer required to wear the habit. It is optional for them now.

As far as she knows, however, Catholic women are still required to cover their hair while attending mass, though she can't think of anyone (including nuns) who do at her church.

Nuns still wear the habit in Ireland. I have yet to see a Nun not wearing the habit. Covering the hair in mass still happens, but not near as frequent as a few year back.

Pictures of some Nuns voting on the Lisbon Treaty just last week. The second picture in the link below.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8287222.stm

[shoelace]

fu@#$in germans and italians needs kick on there ass dammit

[shiasoldier786]

As opposed to jailtime for not wearing something in other countries? ... Uh-Huh

The lack of hijab can cause many problems in a society, meanwhile observing the hijab itself is absolutely harmless, and has no negative impact on the society, but rather has positive effects.

From a news article:

Wearing the hijab, he (Ayatollah Khamenei) said in answering his own question, "is aimed at honoring women, whereas that [the practices of the West] aim to abuse and insult women."

As evidence for this argument, ayatollah Khamenai told the Iranian students to consider the way women are used in Western advertising. "They have exploited women as a tool to sell various products," he said.

"In effect, they have been treating women like a commodity, like another of their products. If you were to look at the magazines, which are published in the West, you would see that they advertise a commodity for sale next to the naked picture of a woman. Can you imagine a bigger insult to women? They [the West] must be answerable [not Islam]," he said.

"Giving the hijab amounts to honoring the person who wears it. A woman's hijab is a symbol of respect for her."

[Irishman]

The lack of hijab can cause many problems in a society, meanwhile observing the hijab itself is absolutely harmless, and has no negative impact on the society, but rather has positive effects.

A woman can still observe hijab without wearing a burqa, which is what they are considering banning. And to say that women not wearing wearing a headscarf is the cause of many problems, is getting back to that old claim that some women deserve to be raped considering what they are wearing. No woman deserves to be raped, irrespective of what she is wearing.

[shiasoldier786]

^^ No one deserves to get raped, but if you imagine a situation where there is a rapist, and there are two wemen passing by, one who is hardly dressed, and the other covering her body and hair... who will the rapist go for?

[AbuHope]

A woman can still observe hijab without wearing a burqa

There's this thing called spiritual growth.

[Irishman]

^^ No one deserves to get raped, but if you imagine a situation where there is a rapist, and there are two wemen passing by, one who is hardly dressed, and the other covering her body and hair... who will the rapist go for?

Men have often broken into the homes of 80 year old women to rape them, and also rape very young children and babies. So that argument that women are picked out for what they wear is seriously flawed. Does an 80 year old women dress sexily, or a young baby in nappies?. I like to go swimming at my local pool and beach and there are women there in bikini's, and shock horror at the age near 40 I have still not raped anyone. Rapes still happen in Iran and the Middle East and S.East Asia where women dress very modestly. Maybe rapes happen more frequently in the west ( or maybe its bacause its reported more to the police, and media reports it ), but the fact it still happens in countries where hijab is observed shows the clothes make a women a target for rape is not accurate.

There's this thing called spiritual growth.

There is also a thing called freedom, and maybe some women ( Muslims and non-Muslims ) would like the freedom to observe hijab if they choose, or not if they choose not to.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Irishman

[BintAlHoda]

^^ No one deserves to get raped, but if you imagine a situation where there is a rapist, and there are two wemen passing by, one who is hardly dressed, and the other covering her body and hair... who will the rapist go for?

salam

i have to agree with irishman (for once) that this is a poor argument, because rape is often about power and some perverted people might choose to rape a lady in burqa for racist (religious prejudice or racial) reasons or whatever... you don't know what is in someone's sick mind

however it can be said that the purpose of hijab is to promote good and moral interactions between men and women, and it is no so far back that some people in english speaking countries used to be named names like chastity, etc, because of this value

and as shiasoldier mentioned, nowadays the media does exploit women tremendously.

however, unfortunately, while in imam khomeini's time that may have been more common in western european-influenced cultures, much of the media that is produced in muslim countries today also presents women in a fashion which is exploitive and also views women as objects rather than humans.

even some media which is not sexually oriented still objectifies women. for instance a lot of food commercials show women scared that their husbands might nto be happy with their food and then relieved when he is happy with it. ok that is not as bad as the above exploitation but it still sends the message that woman is just concerned with what men think of her

ok i've gone way OT but anyway ladies should have the right to wear a burqa if they want. this is ridiculous. and anyway there are probably more cross dressers in italy than ladies who wear burqa so it is not it is like it is a major 'social problem' with all these scary covered ladies. it's just cultural warfare.

[Maryaam]

^^ No one deserves to get raped, but if you imagine a situation where there is a rapist, and there are two wemen passing by, one who is hardly dressed, and the other covering her body and hair... who will the rapist go for?

You need to read up on the psychology of rape and rapists.

[Irishman]

salam

i have to agree with irishman (for once) that this is a poor argument, because rape is often about power and some perverted people might choose to rape a lady in burqa for racist (religious prejudice or racial) reasons or whatever... you don't know what is in someone's sick mind

however it can be said that the purpose of hijab is to promote good and moral interactions between men and women, and it is no so far back that some people in english speaking countries used to be named names like chastity, etc, because of this value

and as shiasoldier mentioned, nowadays the media does exploit women tremendously.

however, unfortunately, while in imam khomeini's time that may have been more common in western european-influenced cultures, much of the media that is produced in muslim countries today also presents women in a fashion which is exploitive and also views women as objects rather than humans.

even some media which is not sexually oriented still objectifies women. for instance a lot of food commercials show women scared that their husbands might nto be happy with their food and then relieved when he is happy with it. ok that is not as bad as the above exploitation but it still sends the message that woman is just concerned with what men think of her

ok i've gone way OT but anyway ladies should have the right to wear a burqa if they want. this is ridiculous. and anyway there are probably more cross dressers in italy than ladies who wear burqa so it is not it is like it is a major 'social problem' with all these scary covered ladies. it's just cultural warfare.

Can someone phone 911 for me, I think I have just had a heart attack :D

[Irishman]

You need to read up on the psychology of rape and rapists.

As penance, he has to support ManU and wear a ManU scarf for the next 6 months :D

[shiasoldier786]

salam

i have to agree with irishman (for once) that this is a poor argument, because rape is often about power and some perverted people might choose to rape a lady in burqa for racist (religious prejudice or racial) reasons or whatever... you don't know what is in someone's sick mind

What you mentioned is possible, but very less likely. Those who commit rape do it out of their desires, and seeing women half naked just enhances that and leads them to commit the act.

"Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?"

I think Sheikh Ahmad Deedat made this statement

[Irishman]

What you mentioned is possible, but very less likely. Those who commit rape do it out of their desires, and seeing women half naked just enhances that and leads them to commit the act.

"Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?"

I think Sheikh Ahmad Deedat made this statement

Men rarely commit rape out of their desires, its normally just an act of violence against women. Sex generally has little to do with it. If an man wants sex in the UK, there are numerous prostitutes, brothels etc... where he can get sex for maybe £20 to £40, instead of risking 5+ years in prison. Men rarely commit rape on the spur of the moment by seeing a pretty women, it is normally planned and they lay in wait in a secluded location for a female to appear.

[AbuHope]

There is also a thing called freedom, and maybe some women ( Muslims and non-Muslims ) would like the freedom to observe hijab if they choose, or not if they choose not to.

Apparently not, right?

If women want to imply Fatima Zahra's (as) character in their lives, then that should be their top priority. That's freedom.

[Irishman]

Apparently not, right?

Well not in Iran for ALL women, or in France just for girls attending state schools, only while in the schools though.

[baradar_jackson]

Well not in Iran for ALL women, or in France just for girls attending state schools, only while in the schools though.

That doesn't make any sense

Going to school is something everyone wants (or needs) to do

And wearing hijab has no on/off switch (for those who wear it out of genuine faith)

Forcing girls to not wear hijab in any public environment is as if you have forced her not to wear it anywhere

[Marbles]

Men rarely commit rape out of their desires, its normally just an act of violence against women. Sex generally has little to do with it. If an man wants sex in the UK, there are numerous prostitutes, brothels etc... where he can get sex for maybe £20 to £40, instead of risking 5+ years in prison. Men rarely commit rape on the spur of the moment by seeing a pretty women, it is normally planned and they lay in wait in a secluded location for a female to appear.

Well said man.

[PeaceLoving]

Men rarely commit rape out of their desires, its normally just an act of violence against women. Sex generally has little to do with it.

That may b true in the West.

But in countries such as India, firstly, rapes are much less common than in the West and secondly, most of the ones that do take place are caused by sexual deprivation rather then a maniac desire for violence.

[BintAlHoda]

Anyway, why is this discussion going to extremes? Why is it that when one person says 'niqaab', someone else will say 'rape'?

There is no need to oversexualize things - it is already a big enough problem that the Western media dialogue generally hypersexualizes everything about Islam.

If we are talking about a country where people dont usually wear niqab (ie not Saudi), niqab has almost 0% relationship with rape. Women in a Western country don't wear niqab to avoid being raped, they wear it because they feel it is religiously required/recommended, or for cultural reasons, or for personal reasons.

I don't see why spiritual growth has any immediate connection to wearing niqab. However I support the freedom of the 1% of ladies who want to wear a niqab.

It's not hurting anyone. If some people consider it an eyesore that is their problem, there are much worse things to look at in society than a piece of cloth someone chooses to wear.

[IloveImamHussain]

Men rarely commit rape out of their desires, its normally just an act of violence against women. Sex generally has little to do with it.

I think in most Afro-Asian countries, far more rapes would be sexually motivated than caused by a propensity for violence. The reason may be that unlike the West, sexual gratification is not easily available in our lands. Many people are terribly sex-starved as far as non-commercial consentuous sex is concerned.

If a man wants sex in the UK, there are numerous prostitutes, brothels etc... where he can get sex for maybe £20 to £40, instead of risking 5+ years in prison.

Even sex with prostitutes may not be as easy because many people are afraid of being found out. Red light areas in countries such as India are sometimes located in or close to busy markets. As such, they are over-crowded and unbeknownst to us, somebody might notice. Our brothels do not provide the privacy that might be available in the West. Contrary to what many of us would like non-Muslims to believe, we care more about being found out by friends and relatives than about sin against the commandments of God.

Men rarely commit rape on the spur of the moment by seeing a pretty women, it is normally planned and they lay in wait in a secluded location for a female to appear.

That may not hold true all over the world.

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Men rarely commit rape out of their desires, its normally just an act of violence against women. Sex generally has little to do with it. If an man wants sex in the UK, there are numerous prostitutes, brothels etc... where he can get sex for maybe £20 to £40, instead of risking 5+ years in prison. Men rarely commit rape on the spur of the moment by seeing a pretty women, it is normally planned and they lay in wait in a secluded location for a female to appear.

Actually that was a case for a while, but there was a recent study and analysis that rapist do indeed mostly do it from urge/desire. I think it was a joint US/British study if I'm not mistaken, and I remember it said something like 40-50% do it out of desires and 15% for the power. It was online, I don't know where it is now though.

[Calm]

Nuns still wear the habit in Ireland. I have yet to see a Nun not wearing the habit. Covering the hair in mass still happens, but not near as frequent as a few year back.Pictures of some Nuns voting on the Lisbon Treaty just last week. The second picture in the link below.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8287222.stm

They're dress fits exactly the Muslim Hijab criteria, but no one bothers them about it. Some people are luckier than others ey...

A woman can still observe hijab without wearing a burqa, which is what they are considering banning.

Full face covering, Burqa, is not something wajib/compulsory in Islam. If they are banning it because it makes it impossible to identify people wearing it, I do not blame them. It makes sense to me . Banning Burqa , something that is not wajib in Islam, is different from banning Hijab. In fact some of our famous scholars discourage Muslim women to fully cover their faces in some western countries.

[jalal27]

Amazing we live in a world where a woman who wants be modest and cover face and hair bother people even muslims. Yet when walking around half nude is ok and we all feel safe and comfortable .Say alot about the time we live in. :wacko:

[Irishman]

Amazing we live in a world where a woman who wants be modest and cover face and hair bother people even muslims. Yet when walking around half nude is ok and we all feel safe and comfortable .Say alot about the time we live in. :wacko:

Are you going to deny there are also families and husbands who force their daughters/wives to we a burqa against their wishes?. I know it may be un-Islamic to do this, but it still no doubt occurs. Banning the burqa will protect these daughters and wives also, yet women can still maintain their hijab.

[thepeacemaker]

Are you going to deny there are also families and husbands who force their daughters/wives to we a burqa against their wishes?. I know it may be un-Islamic to do this, but it still no doubt occurs. Banning the burqa will protect these daughters and wives also, yet women can still maintain their hijab.

If a husband force feeds his wife broccoli, we don't go about banning broccoli. There are already institutions in place to handle threats, coercions, etc. A possible solution to forced burqa wearing, or for that matter forced anything, is to have public service advertisements that encourage people to contact the local social service offices, law enforcement, etc if they feel threatened. Of course, in many cases, women decide to put up with abuse or coercion to some degree due to other considerations (loss of financial support, custody issues, etc).

[baradar_jackson]

Are you going to deny there are also families and husbands who force their daughters/wives to we a burqa against their wishes?. I know it may be un-Islamic to do this, but it still no doubt occurs. Banning the burqa will protect these daughters and wives also, yet women can still maintain their hijab.

Of course there are such cases.

But from my experience, there are more cases in which a young woman who wants to start wearing hijab is faced with obstacles from her family (yes, I'm talking about Muslim families).

All in all, in modern society there is much more coercion (systemic and organic) for people to NOT practice religion than the other way around.

[Irishman]

If a husband force feeds his wife broccoli, we don't go about banning broccoli. There are already institutions in place to handle threats, coercions, etc. A possible solution to forced burqa wearing, or for that matter forced anything, is to have public service advertisements that encourage people to contact the local social service offices, law enforcement, etc if they feel threatened. Of course, in many cases, women decide to put up with abuse or coercion to some degree due to other considerations (loss of financial support, custody issues, etc).

Well for the broccoli claim, not really on a par with someone being forced to wear a burqa. I doubt any husband will make the claim to his wife, that forcing he to eat broccoli is in the Quaran. The ban covers the cases in bold at the end of your comment. If its banned by law, a man cannot force his wife to wear a burqa, so that addresses one possible case of descrimation against women, while still allowing other religious women to observe hijab.