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alisyed1214

Question about YA ALI MADDAD

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No need for me to belittle you as you did an ample job belittling yourself.

Of course, the ayaat quoted don't suit your argument, so they would have to be misquoted, wouldn't they?

really,did i belittle myself?? oh im so sad now,probably wont sleep tonight :(

lol,what with the lame reply c'mon now use ur peanut brain ;)

sweetheart lets make it clear u have no evidence that ur imam can help u,u can write as much as u want,but it will be only meaningless post,defending shirik isn't a smart thing to do,try to learn abt islam instead and again ur quoted verse is irrelevant and do not state in nway to call upon the dead!!

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really,did i belittle myself?? oh im so sad now,probably wont sleep tonight :(

lol,what with the lame reply c'mon now use ur peanut brain ;)

sweetheart lets make it clear u have no evidence that ur imam can help u,u can write as much as u want,but it will be only meaningless post,defending shirik isn't a smart thing to do,try to learn abt islam instead and again ur quoted verse is irrelevant and do not state in nway to call upon the dead!!

There is no need for me to belittle you. Calling me peanut brain and referring to me as sweetheart is proof enough for my assertion...

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Its human nature when a person is in pain or is hurt he calls for the people he loves, its like calling out for your mother or your father even when you know they are not able to hear your call...but this is on a higher level calling a true servant of god and a person who's love washs away your sins because he is loved by God.

Ya Allah

Ya Muhammad

Ya Ali

YA Zahra

Ya Hassan

Ya Hussayn

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There is no need for me to belittle you. Calling me peanut brain and referring to me as sweetheart is proof enough for my assertion...

whatever dear, stick with ur parroting,its obvious u lack in words, also still unable to prov ur point,i actually pity u ! but yalla its ok,u aint the first loser nor u'll be the last.

Edited by maria j

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Its human nature when a person is in pain or is hurt he calls for the people he loves, its like calling out for your mother or your father even when you know they are not able to hear your call...but this is on a higher level calling a true servant of god and a person who's love washs away your sins because he is loved by God.

Ya Allah

Ya Muhammad

Ya Ali

YA Zahra

Ya Hassan

Ya Hussayn

are u kidding me?? "human nature" how abt u try another methode like calling Allah(swt) since HE's more powerful then all those u've mentioned,at least u wont be going against islamic teaching !!

How can ppl call on others besides Allaah, when Allaah has told us that they are helpless? Allaah says:

“And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All‑Knower (of everything)” [Faatir 35:13-14]

next time when u are "in pain or hurt" say ya Allah(swt) cz HE's the only one actually able to help u .

Edited by maria j

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Its human nature when a person is in pain or is hurt he calls for the people he loves, its like calling out for your mother or your father even when you know they are not able to hear your call...but this is on a higher level calling a true servant of god and a person who's love washs away your sins because he is loved by God.

Ya Allah

Ya Muhammad

Ya Ali

YA Zahra

Ya Hassan

Ya Hussayn

(bismillah)

Refer previous page also and read clearly the verses from quran..

By the way you fought with Allah or what ?Why can't you say directly...ya Allah!! :unsure:

Is that so much difficult...

What No Answer? I told you It's Istighatha and Not Tawassul So can you get me Istighatha in Prophetic Sayings? Because if you think that Saying "O Allah By Ali's Good Deeds Can you Grant me Victory over the enemy?" is the same as saying " Ya Ali Grant me Victory over My Enemies" Then you're Mistaken.

"O Allah By Ali's Good Deeds Can you Grant me Victory over the enemy?"

This is what i wanted was?So,saying this is correct? :unsure:

Edited by asher

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I 'm an imami twelver and i dont like this saying( ya ali madad ) even in mean of tawassol as it make people think we are calling on other than Allah

none of the early shia used it and none of the imams and it's not right at all

Your reply is inconsistent with fatwa of your Mujtahid:

========================================================================

Question: What is your opinion about naad-e-Ali (as)?

Answer:

In The Name of Allah (SWT)

Thanks for your e-mail. Regarding your question:

There is no problem to recite such Du'as with the goal of achieving much heavenly reward.

Best regards,

Office of Grand Ayatollah Saanei

========================================================================

In Naad-e-Ali, you invoke Imam Ali (as) three times in the end saying "Ya Ali, Ya Ali, Ya Ali Adrikni (Help me OR encompass me)".

Is Ayatolla Saanei advising people to commit shirk?

---

Ya 'Ali Madad

Edited by zuhair_naqvi

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Your reply is inconsistent with fatwa of your Mujtahid:

========================================================================

Question: What is your opinion about naad-e-Ali (as)?

Answer:

In The Name of Allah (SWT)

Thanks for your e-mail. Regarding your question:

There is no problem to recite such Du'as with the goal of achieving much heavenly reward.

Best regards,

Office of Grand Ayatollah Saanei

========================================================================

In Naad-e-Ali, you invoke Imam Ali (as) three times in the end saying "Ya Ali, Ya Ali, Ya Ali Adrikni (Help me OR encompass me)".

Is Ayatolla Saanei advising people to commit shirk?

---

Ya 'Ali Madad

Never think on your own

Never see ayats of Quran and then make out what actually islam is

Never see what muhammad(pbuh)said.... :cry:

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What No Answer? I told you It's Istighatha and Not Tawassul So can you get me Istighatha in Prophetic Sayings?

yes brother i dint knew the defrence of Istighatha and Tawassul

thanks to ur kind reply to help me. of course shirk is a BIG sin.

how can a muslim bleive in asking some1 else instead of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

but when i say YA ALI MADAD -

i know ALI(a) cant help me without Allah(swt)'s permission

like if i ask u for 1000 rupees is that means tht i m doing shirk ?

why i am asking u 1000 rupees ??

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yes brother i dint knew the defrence of Istighatha and Tawassul

thanks to ur kind reply to help me. of course shirk is a BIG sin.

how can a muslim bleive in asking some1 else instead of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

but when i say YA ALI MADAD -

i know ALI(a) cant help me without Allah(swt)'s permission

like if i ask u for 1000 rupees is that means tht i m doing shirk ?

why i am asking u 1000 rupees ??

Great brother This is what I wanted to get to, You see i don't want to attack you guys but you guys always Take offence and Think "This guy Thinks we're Not Muslims". This is Why We call "Ya Ali Madad" a Bida'a or Innovation and not an Shirk. This is because in order to know Whether it is shirk or not you have to ask each person who says this "Why do you ask help of Ali When Allah Is All hearing and All Wise and will grant your Dua When no one else can?" If the Person Replies Like Brother Mikayl Did we say this is an Innovation Simply Because no one does this "istighatha min Ghayr Allah" from amongst the prophets and the companions and thier followers according to traditions. However, if the reply is "Because Ali Can Help me Acheive what I want" or "Ali can hear me and help me" Then this is Shrik.

So You have to ask the person that by "Ya Ali Madad" Are you asking help of Ali? (and this is what the text implies clearly) or Do you actually mean Allah and you just repeat what other people say in Arabic out of love for ali? In this Case I As an Arab ask you to memorize something else in Arabic which is much clearer and much more organized such as "Ya Allah Bi Haqq Ali Insorny" or "Allahuma Bijah Ali Irhamni" irhamni=Have mercy on me / Insorny= Grant me success.

There are many more words you can memorize in Arabic other than Insorni and Irhamni. Now here this is still not a normal dua, What i mean is the Factor Which is at play is now "Ali's Good deeds" or "The truth Of Mohammad's Message" or even your own Good deeds and according to those Allah will either Grant you what you wish or not and At the end of the day There are a Billion other factors if you know what I mean.

This is why if you're an englishman it is better to do your dua in english if you do not understand the arabic phrase AND asking the all hearing and all knowing whose mercy extends over all is much safer and much stronger as it will make you feel closer to Allah.

As for the hundred Rupees thing, this is just Philosophy don't waste your time with arguments like these, Because at the end Allah didn't Make Haram for you to ask someone a question or ask someone to give you a cup of tea BUT KNOW THIS THAT EVEN IF YOU ASK HIM FOR THOSE AND Allah DOES NOT WISH IT THEN YOU WILL NEVER RECEIVE IT. Besides Allah sent the prophets only so we can follow thier example so if Muhammad PBUH doesn't say in the Quran "O'Adam grant me this" or If ZakariaPBUH doesn't Say "O' Ibrahim grant me that" Instead they Say "O'Allah Almighty By your Wisdom Crush My Enemies" Then we should do it the way they did it.

For example My Phylosophical response would be "If you Say Ya Ali Madad Then who hears you first? Ali or Allah? and If Allah Does Then what's the point?"

Salam

Edited by TripolySunni

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Salam

TripolySunni, I want you to define Shirk.

I want to ask you if the following is Shirk:

Asking a doctor to help you, knowing he can only do what God has given him the ability to do. Is this Shirk?

Your logic so far is "We have no helper other then God therefore to ask directly help from anyone but God is Shirk".

Therefore by your understanding of no helper... the doctor cannot help you... therefore asking him to help you, is to deem something he can do, that only God can do. So therefore it's Shirk...

Now it may not be necessary you use the word "help"...but if you ask the doctor to analyze you, and give a prescription, by the definition of the word help, your seeking his help, and thus asking his help.

"Can you show me how to do this problem please?" Is this person asking help.. yes. But according to you, this person can't help him, only God can...

Right?

So now you say no no no, these are all normal things, it's asking for something really great that is Shirk, something normal humans can't do?

I have then a question, what can humans do or not do? How do you know?

Sulaiman (as) asked a person to bring a throne... is this humanly possible? Yes it is. Is asking someone to do something is great Shirk? If yes your accusing Sulaiman (as) of Shirk.

You see bro, you have to really understand things in light of others. Musa's (as) people asked Musa (as) for Water, they didn't commit Shirk.....

If someone asked if Sulaiman (as) can remove a black magic on him, would that be Shirk? I want you to think about this. Why would it be Shirk when Sulaiman (as) asked someone to do something greater?

Seeing there is no helper but God is to attribute all help to God, to him being in a way the sole cause... but this doesn't forbid one from asking 2ndary causes. This is everyone does, like seeking help in school, seeking help from doctors, seeking help from people about a problem you have, seeking help about financial situations, etc...

All this is not at all forbidden but part of the system God put in place.

Now it will come down to the last things Salafis resort to! "You can't take to the dead, so it's shirk"... but the logic doesn't follow... EVEN if you can't talk to the dead, it doesn't mean it's SHIRK. It means your doing a mistake assuming the dead can hear you. Because it is possible that God makes the deaf hear, logically this would not be making them a share attribute of God.. It won't make "Al-Samee". This sort of logic has no ground. And the reality of Quran and hadith shows is people can hear. What is meant by you can't make hear those whom are dead and those whom are in graves is obviously metaphorical.

Otherwise, Mohammad (saw) talked to the Anbiya (as) and in rhetorical question, is said to ask the Anbiya (as) if God ever commanded Shirk. The rhetorical question would not make sense if was not possible to ask them...

Now what does it mean Mushrikeen use to call on other then God? Well the simplest understanding is they considered other beings just as able as God to determine our destiny, and that God's permission and decision was irrelevant to that. In other words, they believed asking those beings, those beings themselves can determine destiny. They have full control over what occurs.

Now where does this leave "Ali Madad"....well if you believe he can decide how much power you have, what your destiny will be, forgive you and make you enter paradise, provide you substance, etc.. this is probably Shirk. He is not the Lord of the universe to determine these things.

But if you ask with two intentions:

1) Spiritually Aiding with his own capability, that is appearing to you in a state, or something on that line, that for example an Angel (as) can do, and you believe this can't occur unless it's with God's will, what makes this Shirk and not the other cases I showed?

2) Asking him to ask God for you, do Du'as for you, that type of help...What is wrong with that as well?

Looking forward to your reply.

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Salam

TripolySunni, I want you to define Shirk.

I want to ask you if the following is Shirk:

Asking a doctor to help you, knowing he can only do what God has given him the ability to do. Is this Shirk?

Your logic so far is "We have no helper other then God therefore to ask directly help from anyone but God is Shirk".

Therefore by your understanding of no helper... the doctor cannot help you... therefore asking him to help you, is to deem something he can do, that only God can do. So therefore it's Shirk...

Now it may not be necessary you use the word "help"...but if you ask the doctor to analyze you, and give a prescription, by the definition of the word help, your seeking his help, and thus asking his help.

"Can you show me how to do this problem please?" Is this person asking help.. yes. But according to you, this person can't help him, only God can...

Right?

So now you say no no no, these are all normal things, it's asking for something really great that is Shirk, something normal humans can't do?

I have then a question, what can humans do or not do? How do you know?

Sulaiman (as) asked a person to bring a throne... is this humanly possible? Yes it is. Is asking someone to do something is great Shirk? If yes your accusing Sulaiman (as) of Shirk.

You see bro, you have to really understand things in light of others. Musa's (as) people asked Musa (as) for Water, they didn't commit Shirk.....

If someone asked if Sulaiman (as) can remove a black magic on him, would that be Shirk? I want you to think about this. Why would it be Shirk when Sulaiman (as) asked someone to do something greater?

Seeing there is no helper but God is to attribute all help to God, to him being in a way the sole cause... but this doesn't forbid one from asking 2ndary causes. This is everyone does, like seeking help in school, seeking help from doctors, seeking help from people about a problem you have, seeking help about financial situations, etc...

All this is not at all forbidden but part of the system God put in place.

Now it will come down to the last things Salafis resort to! "You can't take to the dead, so it's shirk"... but the logic doesn't follow... EVEN if you can't talk to the dead, it doesn't mean it's SHIRK. It means your doing a mistake assuming the dead can hear you. Because it is possible that God makes the deaf hear, logically this would not be making them a share attribute of God.. It won't make "Al-Samee". This sort of logic has no ground. And the reality of Quran and hadith shows is people can hear. What is meant by you can't make hear those whom are dead and those whom are in graves is obviously metaphorical.

Otherwise, Mohammad (saw) talked to the Anbiya (as) and in rhetorical question, is said to ask the Anbiya (as) if God ever commanded Shirk. The rhetorical question would not make sense if was not possible to ask them...

Now what does it mean Mushrikeen use to call on other then God? Well the simplest understanding is they considered other beings just as able as God to determine our destiny, and that God's permission and decision was irrelevant to that. In other words, they believed asking those beings, those beings themselves can determine destiny. They have full control over what occurs.

Now where does this leave "Ali Madad"....well if you believe he can decide how much power you have, what your destiny will be, forgive you and make you enter paradise, provide you substance, etc.. this is probably Shirk. He is not the Lord of the universe to determine these things.

But if you ask with two intentions:

1) Spiritually Aiding with his own capability, that is appearing to you in a state, or something on that line, that for example an Angel (as) can do, and you believe this can't occur unless it's with God's will, what makes this Shirk and not the other cases I showed?

2) Asking him to ask God for you, do Du'as for you, that type of help...What is wrong with that as well?

Looking forward to your reply.

Sharik = Partner / Shirk with Allah = Associating a Partner with Allah. A Moushrik is a Person who associates Partners with Allah In His Worship OR Believes in Allah and Worships someone/something else.

Dua is an Act of Worship and Associating someone else with Allah in your Dua Well...it's already shirk.

As for medicine it doesn't cure you Allah does and as for the doctor he can help you in anyway he can But if God does not will it then it won't happen and As for Mahdi or Ali or Omar... They are all with Allah now and they cannot help you even if they hear you.

Al Fatiha (1:5) "Thee(Allah) do we worship, and Thine(Allah) aid we seek."

Salam.

Edited by TripolySunni

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Sharik = Partner / Shirk with Allah = Associating a Partner with Allah. A Moushrik is a Person who associates Partners with Allah In His Worship OR Believes in Allah and Worships someone/something else.

Dua is an Act of Worship and Associating someone else with Allah in your Dua Well...it's already shirk.

Salam.

Define Du'a.

Because if it means call in every sense, I can't even call my brother and tell him to come and eat.

Also please do answer my questions.

wa salam

Edited by Awakened

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Define Du'a.

Because if it means call in every sense, I can't even call my brother and tell him to come and eat.

Also please do answer my questions.

wa salam

Brother i try to simplify things for everyone, there is no need to write 5000 words about this, The Quran is already full of examples of shirk.

"قُلِ ٱدْعُواْ ٱللَّهَ أَوِ ٱدْعُواْ ٱلرَّحْمَـٰنَ} الإسراء:110]"

Translation: "Say: "Call upon God, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between." (17:110)

This is a direct order from Allah just like he said "Say He is God the one and Only...", The people during the days of the prophet used to call upon Statues or fictional deities OR JESUS OR OTHER MEN although they knew that Allah was the only One Creator. So Allah Sent Mohammad PBUH and told his messenger to tell them "SAY: CALL UPON GOD OR UPON RAHMAN..."

The word Dua'In Arabic IS When you "Call upon someone" But in our case it is a religious worship where you lift your hands to the sky and ask the creator to Fill your heart with Taqwa and ect...

Google "Ta3reef Du3a2" in Arabic and you'll find plenty of info on it and its rules and many examples of Duas...

Edited by TripolySunni

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Brother i try to simplify things for everyone, there is no need to write 5000 words about this, The Quran is already full of examples of shirk.

"Þõáö ٱÏúÚõæÇú ٱááóøåó Ãóæö ٱÏúÚõæÇú ٱáÑóøÍúãóÜٰäó} ÇáÅÓÑÇÁ:110]"

Translation: "Say: "Call upon God, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between." (17:110)

This is a direct order from Allah just like he said "Say He is God the one and Only...", The people during the days of the prophet used to call upon Statues or fictional deities OR JESUS OR OTHER MEN although they knew that Allah was the only One Creator. So Allah Sent Mohammad PBUH and told his messenger to tell them "SAY: CALL UPON GOD OR UPON RAHMAN..."

The word Dua'In Arabic IS When you "Call upon someone" But in our case it is a religious worship where you lift your hands to the sky and ask the creator to Fill your heart with Taqwa and ect...

Google "Ta3reef Du3a2" in Arabic and you'll find plenty of info on it and its rules and many examples of Duas...

So in other words, you should not call others in the same you call God?

You should not believe they are Worthy of Worship/Have Idependent Power/Can do whatever they want (not limited to God's will).

And no one does that with Ali (as). They regard him as a person, say as am saying "Salamu Alayka Ayuhal Nabi...", so when we ask, same as asking any living person.

So it's not Du'a in the sense that is forbidden to other then Allah (swt). That call is with the belief they can benefit you and harm you regardless of what God wills, they have power and control, and can decide any destiny they want.

Bro your avoiding the questions because you want to make things ambigious.

Your making it as if I am making this unclear that are clear... but it's you being dogmatic with unclear statements that need to be clarified...

This is why I am asking these questions. So define Du'a, I know when you call Allah (swt) this instance of Du'a, but tell an instance of Du'a to other then God...and tell him how that differs from someone calling a person in normal sense.

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So in other words, you should not call others in the same you call God?

You should not believe they are Worthy of Worship/Have Idependent Power/Can do whatever they want (not limited to God's will).

And no one does that with Ali (as). They regard him as a person, say as am saying "Salamu Alayka Ayuhal Nabi...", so when we ask, same as asking any living person.

So it's not Du'a in the sense that is forbidden to other then Allah (swt). That call is with the belief they can benefit you and harm you regardless of what God wills, they have power and control, and can decide any destiny they want.

Bro your avoiding the questions because you want to make things ambigious.

Your making it as if I am making this unclear that are clear... but it's you being dogmatic with unclear statements that need to be clarified...

This is why I am asking these questions. So define Du'a, I know when you call Allah (swt) this instance of Du'a, but tell an instance of Du'a to other then God...and tell him how that differs from someone calling a person in normal sense.

Bro i'm Making things simple and clear, So I quote Clear verses with clear interpretation As for your questions I never read all the post to be honest And this is because i believe that they are answered in my post no matter what they are(Sorry if that sounds Cocky).

Worship is what Would normally belong only to God and when you insert another guy besides him OR INSTEAD OF HIM "YA ALI MADAD" this is Shirk, But since the people don't really mean "Ali" and they mean Allah (But for some reason they don't mention him) This is why we call it Bida'a.

Ya Akhi you can call ali and Mahdi and Hussein If you feel Allah is not enough or that his mercy doesn't encompass you, But Not according to such "Ya Hussein Madad" or "Ya Hussein my Husband Left me please take care of me and my children" NOW DO YOU KNOW WHERE I'M GETTING AT!? Do you know how many Shiites do this? I'm just saying Correct the phrase Keep Hussein and Ali and Mahdi in your Dua But Call Allah By His love for them or by thier deeds since thier deeds are likely to be more accepted as some scholars said.

Please bro.

Edited by TripolySunni

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Bro i'm Making things simple and clear, So I quote Clear verses with clear interpretation As for your questions I never read all the post to be honest And this is because i believe that they are answered in my post no matter what they are(Sorry if that sounds Cocky).

Worship is what Would normally belong only to God and when you insert another guy besides him OR INSTEAD OF HIM "YA ALI MADAD" this is Shirk, But since the people don't really mean "Ali" and they mean Allah (But for some reason they don't mention him) This is why we call it Bida'a.

Ya Akhi you can all ali and Mahdi and Hussein If you feel Allah is not enough or that his mercy doesn't encompass you, But Not according to such "Ya Hussein Madad" or "Ya Hussein my Husband Left me please take care of me and my children" NOW DO YOU KNOW WHERE I'M GETTING AT!? Do you know how many Shiites do this? I'm just saying Correct the phrase Keep Hussein and Ali and Mahdi in your Dua But Call Allah By His love for them or by thier deeds since thier deeds are likely to be more accepted as some scholars said.

Please bro.

You want to keep things ambigious, it's your choice.

You can apply the same logic, why go to a doctor, is God not enough, he is not all powerfull, all merciful... but if God has made him a means, that's what he is.

Likewise, if God appointed us Spiritual Guides, it doesn't make sense not to seek their help in our Journey... They can show us the way, teach us how to wield the Sword of God, and help us overcome dark forces when in times of calamity...

Sulaiman (as) knew that Asif can teleport an entire throne, why didn't ask God directly and then God do it through Asif?

If you think you need to ask God to help you for your homework and that he would then send you a person to help you, this is your belief, but I know you don't.

So it's the same it applies here, you are just unaware of the System of Guidance in place for all humans. Prophets (as) are alive, Shuhuda are alive, Ahlebayt (as) are alive, it's your own opinion that they have no means of hearing us and can't offer anything to the living.

If you can seek help from a doctor and it's not Shirk, then it's not shirk if you seek help from Ali (as). The whole issue is if you regard them to have limited abilities and unable to do anything without God's permission and act only according to a system God put in place and not able to determine destiny or decide anything God has not decided.

Keeping this in mind, if God has made certain people a means to him, why is not permissible to ask their spiritual presence?

Why is not allowable for you to request they ask on your behalf?

You avoided my questions because you want to leave things ambigious.

You want to say "it's clear this is Shirk according to Quran...", but all the logic you showed shows seeking help for anything from anyone in real life would be Shirk by this standard.

So at least make the distinguishment between this and that. Otherwise, it's you making things unclear, and as I said, I am trying to clarify definitions so we can discuss logically whether the case of seeking Ali's (as) help as being Shirk or not.

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Besides Let me show you a difference between the Muslim Patient and doctor and the Kouffar.

Since you know arabic here's what usually happens:

المريض:" يا دكتور الله يرضى عليك عالجني!"

دكتور:"بإذن الله تعالى إنت ستشفى إذ اتبعت ما وصفته لك"

المريض:"بارك الله فيك يا دكتور"

Now check out the Kaffer doctors and patients:

Patient:"O'Doctor I Come to you sick and i know you're the only one who can help"

Doctor:"Don't worry you've come to the right place, Follow my instructions and you'll surely heal".

Patient:"sigh, Thx".

Ok now you see that the Muslims depend on Allah even though they arn't scholars but normal laymen whereas the Kouffar are full of Shirk.

At the end of the day we all do shirk in different levels without knowing it this is why if Allah wanted to judge us based on every little thing we never notice then Not even the prophets would enter heaven, we'll see the extent of his mercy in due time.

Edited by TripolySunni

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Besides Let me show you a difference between the Muslim Patient and doctor and the Kouffar.

Since you know arabic here's what usually happens:

المريض:" يا دكتور الله يرضى عليك عالجني!"

دكتور:"بإذن الله تعالى إنت ستشفى إذ اتبعت ما وصفته لك"

المريض:"بارك الله فيك يا دكتور"

Now check out the Kaffer doctors and patients:

Patient:"O'Doctor I Come to you sick and i know you're the only one who can help"

Doctor:"Don't worry you've come to the right place, Follow my instructions and you'll surely heal".

Patient:"sigh, Thx".

Ok now you see that the Muslims depend on Allah even though they arn't scholars but normal laymen whereas the Kouffar are full of Shirk.

No one thinks one doctor is the only one whom can help him. And if you seek help from a doctor, you don't necessarily think God can't help you. But it's expected that if you an eye effection for example, you don't stay at home and do Du'a. You go to a doctor. And yes you seek his help.

Here the issue of Shirk is not even possible for athiests, because they don't think the doctor has ability to do anything he wants. Du'a is given that ability to do whatever they please as they see it, with or without God's permission. Athiests even see that the human is limited in what he can do, and can't do anything he wants.

But as we know, humans have abilities Athiests don't think humans have. Sulaiman (as) knew this, and it was not Shirk for him requesting whom can bring the throne when he knew Asif can do it because of God's granting him that and allowing him to do that and that happening to his will.

You see it's very simple. Mushrikeen believed in beings that God let them decide how the universe was going to function, and that God would not intervene, they can worship these beings, and they can decide whatever they want...

But doesn't anyone believe any decision regarding our destiny and life will happen without God's decision? Does anyone ask Ali (as) to grant so and so faith.. no because this is God's judgment...or for Ali (as) to erase our name from the evil doers and write our name among the Illiyeen? Do we believe he shares in God's judgment... This specifically the Du'a they used to ask and this is what "Du'a' meant.

Otherwise seeking intercession and help, is not forbidden as long as one is aware of their limits. For example, no one goes to a doctor asking him for supernatural things... they only ask for what he is limited to.. but as I said, others are beyond normal humans limits, as in the case of Asif...

So what makes it different for Spiritual help and guidance in the sense that a limited human can offer? Why is it shirk here, and not shirk there?

Edited by Awakened

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Otherwise seeking intercession and help, is not forbidden as long as one is aware of their limits. For example, no one goes to a doctor asking him for supernatural things... they only ask for what he is limited to.. but as I said, others are beyond normal humans limits, as in the case of Asif...

So what makes it different for Spiritual help and guidance in the sense that a limited human can offer? Why is it shirk here, and not shirk there?

The part in red is what I've been saying since the beginning, You can ask humans for things they can help you with such as getting a cup of coffee This isn't shirk, but asking one for Madad without Allah or going to his grave and asking him for help in Succeeding in your life or marriage or whatever This is The sort of thing you ask of Allah, as a Caliph you ask your Wazir for advice on a certain matter But you only ask success from Allah and even do two Raka'at for Istikhara in order to see If the advice is for the best or not. As for Suleiman he can talk to jinn and for the Jinn what is possible is different from what is possible for the humans so for the Jinn getting the Burj Dubai is like getting a cup of coffee. Secondly The story of Suleiman has a few complications other than the fact that Allah has granted suleiman the jinn and animals to help him in certain tasks As for Asif scholars have different interpretations as to who this Asif is, Some say he is Suleiman's relative who "knows Allah's greatest name" Or a Scholar from Banu israel who Knows Allah's book (So he's a Believer that Seeks only Allah by his greatest Name)meaning that he Did it by Alla's will Some others say Asif is Gabriel (Allah did this) And some say He is a Believer of the jinn Which Allah assigned to help suleiman PBUH. So If Allah "Sakhara Lana Haza" translated "سخر لنا هذا" Then there is no Shirk here.

Edited by TripolySunni

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The part in red is what I've been saying since the beginning, You can ask humans for things they can help you with such as getting a cup of coffee This isn't shirk, but asking one for Madad without Allah or going to his grave and asking him for help in Succeeding in your life or marriage or whatever This is The sort of thing you ask of Allah, as a Caliph you ask your Wazir for advice on a certain matter But you only ask success from Allah and even do two Raka'at for Istikhara in order to see If the advice is for the best or not. As for Suleiman he can talk to jinn and for the Jinn what is possible is different from what is possible for the humans so for the Jinn getting the Burj Dubai is like getting a cup of coffee. Secondly The story of Suleiman has a few complications other than the fact that Allah has granted suleiman the jinn and animals to help him in certain tasks As for Asif scholars have different interpretations as to who this Asif is, Some say he is Suleiman's relative who "knows Allah's greatest name" Or a Scholar from Banu israel who Knows Allah's book (So he's a Believer that Seeks only Allah by his greatest Name)meaning that he Did it by Alla's will Some others say Asif is Gabriel (Allah did this) And some say He is a Believer of the jinn Which Allah assigned to help suleiman PBUH. So If Allah "Sakhara Lana Haza" translated "ÓÎÑ áäÇ åÐÇ" Then there is no Shirk here.

So we agree...

"doing a dua for another person" this is certainly a capability of humans. Dead hearing is not impossible capability, God can make them hear.

Spiritual Guidance/assistance, it's not impossible, and in fact, we have many hadiths that talk about this guidance, at least that Imam Mahdi (as) can offer this guidance. As for whether Ali (as) can still or not, then that's another discussion but certainly it's not Shirk.

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So we agree...

"doing a dua for another person" this is certainly a capability of humans. Dead hearing is not impossible capability, God can make them hear.

Spiritual Guidance/assistance, it's not impossible, and in fact, we have many hadiths that talk about this guidance, at least that Imam Mahdi (as) can offer this guidance. As for whether Ali (as) can still or not, then that's another discussion but certainly it's not Shirk.

At the end of the day it's not about whether they can hear you or not, It's about whether they can help you or not.

Allah Says to settle this:"إن تدعوهم لا يسمعوا دعاءكم ولو سمعوا ما استجابوا لكم ويوم القيامة يكفرون بِشِرۡڪِكُمۡۚ وَلَا يُنَبِّئُكَ مِثۡلُ خَبِيرٍ۬" Fatir:14

Translation:" If ye Make Dua unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you. On the Day of Resurrection they will disown association with you. None can inform you like Him Who is Aware." (35:14).

Check out the dua of Adam:(اللهم إنك سرى و علانيتي فاقبل معذرتي ,و تعلم حاجتي فأعطني سؤالي,و تعلم ما في نفسي فاغفر لي ذنوبي

Check out the Dua of Jacob: (بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم . يا من خلق الخلق بغير مثال و يا من بسط الأرض بغير أعوان , و يا من دبر الأمور بغير وزير ,و يا من يرزق الخلق بغير مشير

Check out the Dua of Yunus:الله لا اله ألا أنت سبحانك أنى كنت من الظالمين

Look Forget about the prophetsPBUT,

Check out What Al Imam Al Redah Says in His Dua:

يقول الإمام الرضا في دعائه : " اللهم إني برئ من الحول والقوة ولا حول ولا قوة إلا بك . اللهم إني

أعوذ بك وأبرأ إليك من الذين ادعوا لنا ما ليس لنا بحق اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا

اللهم لك الخلق ومنك الرزق وإياك نعبد وإياك نستعين اللهم أنت خالقنا وخالق آبائنا الأولين وآبائنا الآخرين اللهم لا تليق الربوبية إلا بك . ولا تصلح الإلهية إلا لك فالعن النصارى الذين صغروا عظمتك والعن المضاهئين لقولهم من بريتك

اللهم إنا عبيدك وأبناء عبيدك لا نملك لأنفسنا نفعا ولا ضرا ولا موتا ولا حياة ولا نشورا اللهم من زعم أرباب فنحن منه براء ومن زعم أن إلينا الخلق وعلينا أو إلينا الرزق فنحن براء منه كبراءة عيسى ابن مريم عليه السلام من النصارى

اللهم إنا لم ندعهم إلى ما يزعمون فلا تؤاخذنا بما يقولون واغفر لنا ما يدعون ولا تدع منهم على الأرض ديارا إنك إن تذرهم يضلوا عبادك ولا يلدوا إلا فاجرا كفارا

Check out what Al Imam Al Sajjad Says in His Dua:

الإمام السجّاد(ع) في دعائه :"اللهم إنّي أخلصتُ في انقطاعي إليك ـ فليس هناك شخص يشغله(ع) عن الله سبحانه، فانقطع إليه انقطاع الإخلاص، إخلاص العقل والقلب، لأنَّ الحياة كلَّها لله ـ وأقبلتُ بكلِّي عليك ـ فقد أقبل عقلي وقلبي وحياتي إليك ـ وصرفتُ وجهي عمّن يحتاج إلى رفدك ـ إنَّ بعض الناس قد يتوجّهون إلى من يملك المال أو الجاه ليطلبوا منه حاجاتهم، ولكني رأيت أنَّ من يُتوجَّه إليه هو المحتاج إلى رفدك وعطائك ـ وقلبت مسألتي عمّن لم يستغنِ عن فضلك، ورأيت أنَّ طَلَبَ المحتاج إلى المحتاج سَفَهٌ من رأيه وضلّةٌ من عقله

فأيُّ سَفَهٍ أشدُّ من أن يطلب المحتاج حاجته من المحتاج ـ فكم قد رأيتُ يا إلهي من أناسٍ طلبوا العزَّ بغيرك فذلّوا، وراموا الثروة من سواك فافتقروا، وحاولوا الارتفاع فاتّضعوا، فصحَّ بمعاينة أمثالهم حازمٌ وفّقه اعتباره، وأرشدَه إلى طريق صوابه اختيارُه، فأنت يا مولاي دون كلِّ مسؤول موضعُ مسألتي، ودون كلِّ مطلوبٍ وليُّ حاجتي

They are Both the Epitome of Tawheed in these Duas, So Follow their Examples for this is a Dangerous Matter truely

قال تعالى : (إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَغْفِرُ أَنْ يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ يَشَاءُ وَمَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ افْتَرَى إِثْماً عَظِيماً) (النساء:48

translation:"Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin." (4:48)

Salam.

Edited by TripolySunni

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