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TheHealer

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I had raised a question, which got lost in the meli of posts.............coming back to it : Is the Akhbari school of thought of the opinion that Allah created the ahlul baytas.gif and then the ahlul bayt created the universe? Is this the standard position of theirs?

Wasallam

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bismillah.gif

salam.gif

I had raised a question, which got lost in the meli of posts.............coming back to it : Is the Akhbari school of thought of the opinion that Allah created the ahlul baytas.gif and then the ahlul bayt created the universe? Is this the standard position of theirs?

Wasallam

(wasalam)

Please don't call these folks akhbaris. Akhbari refers to a school of thought in regards to one conception of usool al-fiqh, that is, the principles by which the faqih obtains his understanding of what the Shari`a says. It doesn't really have to do with a difference of aqaid, or even so much to do with actual differences in practice. Folks on sites such as this one being discussed are a different matter, and aught not to be confused with Akhbarism, even if some of them have been trying to hijack the name recently. Don't allow them to do this however, as many great `ulama of ours have considered themselves Akhbari, and it would unjust to do group them with these other folks, both in tarnishing their own names and in giving undeserved backing to these other groups' claims.

As to your question, that was the belief of the Mufawidda heretics in ancient times which the Shi`a scholars back then firmly rejected (e.g. Shaykh Saduq who cursed them), and would be a form of ghulw.

ya ali madat Bro nastynas

in the case of say, smoking, how would a non usooli narrator of hadiths determine its legal standing whether halal haram or makrooh, or would smoking not be analysed, since its not a part of islam, and the scholar would say "refer to a scientist"?

You know what's really ironic? It was the Akhbaris in fact (the real ones, not modern day posers) who had been at the forefront of saying smoking tobacco was haram hundreds of years ago, much earlier than the modern day maraji` now coming to fatwas either leaning towards or directly stating that.

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why is the admin of the site supposed to be asking the questions to macisaac.... did he suddenly become a marja or the representitive to sistani all of a sudden?

the point was the marja e taqleed or the representitive from the offices refused to answer the questions! it is them and their representitives responsible for answering their muqallids.

I most certainly am not. However, as nice as it would be to have representatives in all of the offices capable of answering the hundreds if not thousands of questions they receive a day, furnishing each and every response given with a detailed dissertation of the proofs and arguments behind every fatwa for every person that asks them a question, I don't consider to be terribly realistic. As such, if you really want to find out the proofs behind these things, it's up to you to do a bit of research and read their more detailed works on the subject, many of which are now online, al-hamdu lillah. Some folks though are averse to doing any work on their own, and think they've the inherent right to be spoon-fed everything, and then preferring to complain loudly about when this doesn't happen rather than investing some personal effort in study. The fatawa of Sayyid Sistani generally aren't that far off from those of his teacher, Sayyid al-Khoe'i, and for the latter we have (online even) transciptions of his lectures which go over in fine details the evidences for his rulings. See here:

http://al-khoei.us/books/index.php?master=1∂=1

If the questioner really wanted to know the answer to his question so badly, why didn't he take the time to look at works like the above?

What you probably expected was a faqih to be described by the Masumeen asws as one who is a Jurist. This is the common understanding of most people….that a Faqih is a person who is an expert in the principles of jurisprudence (Usool E Fiqh). But the Holy Infallibles (asws) have described a Faqih as a person who understands their position.

Have you even read the ahadith of the A'imma (as) to make such claims? Yes, recognition of their position is essential, determinative of the initial validity of whatever the scholar says. However, a huge amount, quite possibly the majority, of the ahadith (particularly from Imams al-Baqir (as) and as-Sadiq (as)) are on the topics of Shari`a and fiqh as such, and a number of their disciples were particularly renown as being experts in that field (e.g. Zurara b. A`yan). I mean, just look at Wasa'il ash-Shi`a. 30 large volumes, 29 of which (the 30th is the Shaykh's writing about the method he used) are mainly ahadith on furu`, with all the fiqh topics ranging from tahara to the diyaat.

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wasalam.gif

As to your question, that was the belief of the Mufawidda heretics in ancient times which the Shi`a scholars back then firmly rejected (e.g. Shaykh Saduq who cursed them), and would be a form of ghuluw

But this tendency of Mufawidda, seems to be present, in the group who per se are against Taqlid( Akhbari or otherwise).... I have never seen an Usooli advocating these views. Why is it so ?

Besides have these views been present all along, or have they suddenly reappeared ? As apparently, it appears that they are well and truly here ( got a website, got their scholars..pseudo or oherwise, are translating texts) ...are they a substantial group.

Plus one more thing, that has been in my mind for quite sometime now. Shaikh Saduq(ra) has refutted these people ( mufawidda or other wise) in the past, so much so that he has attributed the saying of Ali un waliullah in the adhan as a mufawidda/ gullu practise. But then again people ( including here on shiachat too) and scholars alike have raised doubt as to how Shaikh Saduq concluded those people were guluw or Mufawidda, therefore they allow the said practice, but with saying its not part of the adhan..........i find this strange, on one hand Shaykh Saduq along with Mufid, Sharief Murtada are considered among our greatest scholars.....but then our own scholars cast doubt on him. I have never truly understood this.Where does that leave us then, who to trust ........

Shaykh Saduq has also mentioned that , saying Imams of the Ahlul Baytas.gif could not err ( total isma) is the first stage of Guluw.............but again we as shias believe in Infallibility almost to the tilt. Now a days Syed Fadullah is of the same opinion, even to the extent of casting doubt on dua Tawassul and the like.

Then is the issue of asking other than Allah. Though intercession and Tawasul( seeking the means, this tawasul i mean) are beyond doubt, but saying ya Ali(as) madad { who many while saying it mean it literally and how many believe that Allah is going to give the madad, well your guess is as good as mine} is again such a contensious issue.......................why hasnt' our school of thought a uniform policy on it.................why so much of difference even in Scholars, let alone the lay public............after all we recite thee alone We worship and thee alone We ask for help.

Besides i would like to ask ,you, are sayings such as Ya Ali (as)madad and the like, historically speaking a post Safavid phenomina, did Imams(AS) ever advocate such a thing.......did anyone ever hear them recite the adhan, did they ever say themselves Ya Ali madad, did they ever recite themselves supplications like dua' Tawassul...........all these things which come to mind, have infact kept me quite disturbed for quite sometime now, because there are so many contradictions and different opinions even among the Marjas...........it really disturbs and confuses me a lot, since the hadith of Imam Reza(AS) mentioned by Shaikh Saduq in his book on I'tiqid in the chapter of Guluw and Tafwid is quite strong . Avoid the doubtfull is what the Prophet pbuh.gif said, why dont ALL our scholars advocate it then ?

Wasallam ............. ( plus Shaikh Saduq was born after the Imam(atfs) prayed for his birth, should he then have more authority then say a Tusi, a Khoie, a Khameni or a Sistani ??.............is this a sound reason academically speaking ?)

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in all of the offices capable of answering the hundreds if not thousands of questions they receive a day, furnishing each and every response given with a detailed dissertation of the proofs and arguments behind every fatwa for every person that asks them a question, I don't consider to be terribly realistic. As such, if you really want to find out the proofs behind these things, it's up to you to do a bit of research and read their more detailed works on the subject,

Thanks Macisaac,

So you admit (for whatever reason)they do NOT provide proof!

That's all I wanted to know, thanks again! :yaali:

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(salam)

Disturbing site indeed,it looks like Azadara e Hussain is there just to defend the writer.

Few brothers asked questions but no answers were given.I didn't know the meaning of "ya Ali"

after salam until brother Jondab-Azdi asked for proof that it's "Wajib"(according to them) in greetings,Adhaan

and Tashahhud,but no answer either with or without proof.I didn't dare to ask about anything

just for the fact I didn't know how they would respond to a woman :!!!: :!!!:

Ya Moula (saw) Madad...

I am not really sure what you mean by the bolded part especially considering i am an admin on the site and am also female as well as part of our moderating team is female...what do you think we would do ? eat you?

don't think we have the time to waste refuting their beliefs on their forums just as we don't have time to go to kr-hcy and refute foolish propagandist beliefs. Moreover, their beliefs have been refuted many times considering that it is laid on a shaky foundation but as Imam Ridha (a) said, there is no remedy for stubborn ignorance.

Nonetheless, as you must have noticed here, bro macisaac asked the promoter of that forum to ask him questions; but he did not reply.

First again i am a "she" not a "he"... i have noticed that many people here have made the statement and i paraphrase as to why they should bother coming to our site and refute us...i would ask why then does this rule suddenly become forgotten when it comes to us? and if we decide to do the same as you, it is a sign of ignorance and refusal to answer but when you do it , suddenly it becomes a sign of piety? what is this double standard? there is one rule for everyone.. you cant make up rules to please yourself while at the same time condemning another for doing the very act which you yourself are doing...

also regarding the statement saying we are responsible for sectarian violence in pakistan..i must admit you are right...

it isnt b/c of the strong influence of al queda or taliban who daily slaughter shias like animals by dismembering bodies etc in places such as parachinar and daira ismail khan and many other places..

it also isnt b/c of the corrupt govt officials who do nothing but line their pockets with money and become fat off their wealth while the common people are starving and unable to feed their children...

it also isnt b/c of the loadshedding when its 50+ degrees outside and the elec is off for 18-22 hrs a day so not only is there no fans. a/c etc.. but the poor business man is unable to even open his business to earn even a lil money to buy food for his family ....

it also isnt b/c of the rising cost of basic necessities such as flour,ghee, sugar, dates, etc which has doubled and even tripled in some places due to the hoarding of products by manufacturing and the govt's inability and unwillingness to control this prob b/c it would effect the money in their pockets they do not care how it effects the poor people who at times think of slaughtering their children just so they can stop their pain and suffering and starvation and remove them from the horrible life which they are living and can find no way out of...

it also isnt b/c there are no job opportunities and very little opportunity for people to remove themselves from the intense poverty they face every day and to remove themselves from being held under the hand of terrorists groups such as taliban

none of these reasons have anything to do with the violence in pakistan...our website is the sole cause you are right...

it makes me wonder how long will it be before you start blaming us for 9/11

i would like to ask one final question and that question is:

how does the flesh of your dead brother taste?

Moula (saw) Waris

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it also isnt b/c of the loadshedding when its 50+ degrees outside and the elec is off for 18-22 hrs a day so not only is there no fans. a/c etc.. but the poor business man is unable to even open his business to earn even a lil money to buy food for his family ....

Pakistani people can be very dangerous if they have the quality of life, they will rebel against the government and all kinds of chaos will erupt, so its better if load shedding takes place so all the normal pakistani citizen worrys about is where to get their bread, its better like that because otherwise pakistanis will create fitna.....but I guess you have to be pakistani to know that with a pakistani family.....only then wil u understand such things....

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Ya Moula (saw) Madad...

I am not really sure what you mean by the bolded part especially considering i am an admin on the site and am also female as well as part of our moderating team is female...what do you think we would do ? eat you?

First again i am a "she" not a "he"... i have noticed that many people here have made the statement and i paraphrase as to why they should bother coming to our site and refute us...i would ask why then does this rule suddenly become forgotten when it comes to us? and if we decide to do the same as you, it is a sign of ignorance and refusal to answer but when you do it , suddenly it becomes a sign of piety? what is this double standard? there is one rule for everyone.. you cant make up rules to please yourself while at the same time condemning another for doing the very act which you yourself are doing...

also regarding the statement saying we are responsible for sectarian violence in pakistan..i must admit you are right...

it isnt b/c of the strong influence of al queda or taliban who daily slaughter shias like animals by dismembering bodies etc in places such as parachinar and daira ismail khan and many other places..

it also isnt b/c of the corrupt govt officials who do nothing but line their pockets with money and become fat off their wealth while the common people are starving and unable to feed their children...

it also isnt b/c of the loadshedding when its 50+ degrees outside and the elec is off for 18-22 hrs a day so not only is there no fans. a/c etc.. but the poor business man is unable to even open his business to earn even a lil money to buy food for his family ....

it also isnt b/c of the rising cost of basic necessities such as flour,ghee, sugar, dates, etc which has doubled and even tripled in some places due to the hoarding of products by manufacturing and the govt's inability and unwillingness to control this prob b/c it would effect the money in their pockets they do not care how it effects the poor people who at times think of slaughtering their children just so they can stop their pain and suffering and starvation and remove them from the horrible life which they are living and can find no way out of...

it also isnt b/c there are no job opportunities and very little opportunity for people to remove themselves from the intense poverty they face every day and to remove themselves from being held under the hand of terrorists groups such as taliban

none of these reasons have anything to do with the violence in pakistan...our website is the sole cause you are right...

it makes me wonder how long will it be before you start blaming us for 9/11

i would like to ask one final question and that question is:

how does the flesh of your dead brother taste?

Moula (saw) Waris

ure not even pakistani either, ure a gori ure country is usa not Pakistan........

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by the way you are all fake anyway, you accuse the usoolis of following mujtahids, but you are following peers yourself what hypocrites!

Which peers exactly?

ure not even pakistani either, ure a gori ure country is usa not Pakistan........

It may be an idea to not be ignorant and use conjecture as your only weapon of attack but if you believe sister Azadar is from USA do you have any proof?

Isn't it strange that you suddenly joined shiachat JUST to reply to sister Azadar? Why not use your real identity? What are you soo afraid of? And then you say mominonline has an agenda lol.

May Allah (swt)s infinate curses be upon the liars and decievers! :shaytan:

:yaali:

Edited by nastynas

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Pakistani people can be very dangerous if they have the quality of life, they will rebel against the government and all kinds of chaos will erupt, so its better if load shedding takes place so all the normal pakistani citizen worrys about is where to get their bread, its better like that because otherwise pakistanis will create fitna.....but I guess you have to be pakistani to know that with a pakistani family.....only then wil u understand such things....

and you people wonder why we all want nothing to do with your brand of Islam and your interpretation thereof..... heck with you at the helm im sure you'll just have your own gitmo for all them pesky 'ol paki's eh?

not the same Islam my Prophet sawa and my Moula asws taught to me thats for sure!

PS

Im the gori

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Hey, genius, atleast make a statement about something which you are aware of.....................

At that time Shia' Sunni maslaqs were still not totally defined in a religo- social sense. For you to make this statement ( wahhabi and some sunnis who want to exonerate the filthy Yazid(la) also claim so } you first need to understand the complexities of the Kufan society at that time, who were the real shias ( religious affiliation wise) and who were mere oppurtunists. What were the restrictions imposed by Ibn Ziyad on Kufan shias after Muslim bin Aqeel(ra) was martyred, who were the people who were put in jail( among them a certain Mukhtar al Thaqaffi), and then make a claim..........

I do suggest you to read the following and try to learn something and then make any assumption :

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/who_killed_imam_hussain/en/index.php

and then read this :

http://www.karbala-najaf.org/shiaism/shiaism.html this is a book in which the author has painstakingly defined the religious and geopolitical make up of the Kufan society in that era...........

And for Pete's sake , atleast know a thing fully, before you make a GRAND comment..........

PEACE

Truth hurts.

They were shias and they loved Imam. But they betrayed him out of fear of life.

The prophet has said that the followers of the last Imam will go against him.

Study history and accept the truth.

You are like those people who beleive that only shia are good the rest are all bad.

Just like the jews said that they are the favourite of God.

To give you straight on the face: Allah loves his creation. Allah is not biased. He is Just

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Truth hurts.

They were shias and they loved Imam. But they betrayed him out of fear of life.

The prophet has said that the followers of the last Imam will go against him.

Study history and accept the truth.

You are like those people who beleive that only shia are good the rest are all bad.

Just like the jews said that they are the favourite of God.

To give you straight on the face: Allah loves his creation. Allah is not biased. He is Just

You are still not getting the point. You can not generalize a statement . Tell me who were the 72 companions of Imam al-Hussayn ( May my mother and father be sacrificed for him) who laid down their lives for him in Karbala ? Were they not his Shia ? Was Habib ibn mudahir not a Shia, who despite his old age some how reached to the battle field and layed down his life..............what was the Tawabun movement all about? See you have to understand certain things, if despite this you say Shias' betrayed al Husaynas.gif , then where were the sunnis ? Where have they been to this day ? Which group of people put the Prophets' kin in the tomb ? Which group of people formed the Tawabun movement ? Which group of people pray day and night to the Almighty to hasten the reappearence of al- Imam al Mahdias.gif so that they can avenge the blood of The Master of the Youth of Paradise ? Which group of people despite the hardships , despite the killings visited al Husayns'as.gif tomb, which group of people ???

"Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, we believe, and not be tried ?" Surah Ankabut 29:2

Indeed, the Master (Ali) was abused for a thousand months but we never doubted his teachings. And the Holy Prophet (saaw) was falsified for 10 years but we laid no blame on his prophethood and Iblis lived for years more than the number of grains of sand and we do not refrain from cursing him. We had been tested with wealth for a long time also and indeed we had faith in the Kingdom of Allah. And Imam after an Imam and the pleasure of Allah with His Will. They were all martyred but we did not doubt their Imamate. Indeed the promise of Allah would be fulfilled and the command of Allah changes never. You will never come to know it, never; very soon, the oppressors shall know what their end shall be. Indeed, you shall know their fate after sometime, in Qiyamah."

PEACE.

Edited by fahim

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The biggest problem with shia is that they beleive that heaven is just made for them. And they regard themselves nearer to Allah. They have this false belief that just by declaring love for Imam Ali they will go to heaven. They have this false ego and pride which is the trick of shaytan to fool them. The true beleiver of Allah is one who lives a life of piety as the Imams lived.

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The biggest problem with shia is that they beleive that heaven is just made for them. And they regard themselves nearer to Allah. They have this false belief that just by declaring love for Imam Ali they will go to heaven. They have this false ego and pride which is the trick of shaytan to fool them. The true beleiver of Allah is one who lives a life of piety as the Imams lived.

Hey hipocrite , stop your moronic comments.....................by the way arent you claiming that you are a Shia in the thread you started " please help needed" in the Polygamy and Temporary Marriage forum, that too help needed in contracting muta ...................

Your profile says you are a Christian, but i am sure Saheb you are a sunni from the sibcontinent................that too you are lying in Ramadhan, speaks volumes about your character and upbringing.

By the way what makes you think that Shias only believe in loving Imam Ali(AS) and then not in good deeds? On what bases do you make such an assumption ? Honestly i pity you, go and see a Shirk ( i am sure you will not be knowing what a Shirk means, the uneducated sorry soul that you are....)

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Hey hipocrite , stop your moronic comments.....................by the way arent you claiming that you are a Shia in the thread you started " please help needed" in the Polygamy and Temporary Marriage forum, that too help needed in contracting muta ...................

Your profile says you are a Christian, but i am sure Saheb you are a sunni from the sibcontinent................that too you are lying in Ramadhan, speaks volumes about your character and upbringing.

By the way what makes you think that Shias only believe in loving Imam Ali(AS) and then not in good deeds? On what bases do you make such an assumption ? Honestly i pity you, go and see a Shirk ( i am sure you will not be knowing what a Shirk means, the uneducated sorry soul that you are....)

Another fake not wanting positive criticism and proves himself mannerless, abusive.....

Is this what your religion teaches you?

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Instead of slandering and shedding each others blood. Muslims have to learn to respect each others views whatever the sect.

That makes so much sense, I don't know how none of us didn't see it before. I am definately nominating you for a Noble Peace Prize, 3 gold stars for you, bravo, bravo.

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Salaam

Ya Ali Madad

Aaaaaah sorry ... i didnt wanted to comment here .. but i just cudnt resist sharing this ... nyways Mr.Fahim ....

the thing which u quoted abt Ameeral Momeneen (as) is not only written by Allamah Baqir Nisar Zaidi in kashaful aqaid ...

but u can get that in Kokabe durri written by Syed Muhammed Saleh Kashfi { Sunni Writer }

So gimme a 5 dude .. v also have akhbaris, ghalis , malangs , n blah blah in sunni's ... :lol:

:yaali:

Khuda Hafiz

Ali Waris

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Salaam Alykum,

Well, four years now, am still waiting for the reply to post no 39.

And my appologies to "saheb" for my harsh language, i was kinda young and hasty those days !!

P.S. am waiting for my reply....

Wasallam

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