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Charleslemartel

Why Islam?

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Quran isn't Islam. So you need, Quran+Hadith+Tafseers(optional)+Hisotry, in order to understand Islam, in depth.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Thank you for answering my question. Quran, as I understand, is the same for all the sects of Islam. May I now ask which Hadith, which tafseer, and which History do I need to study to understand Islam?

While you are answering my question, please also tell me why a book from Allah is not sufficient to understand Islam when he himself claimed more than once that the Quran is a well explained, clear and easy to understand book.

I find 99% of the questions I need to know are answered fairly clearly in the Quran and Hadith, and the rest I just consult scholars who show me the correct understanding.

Right, fair enough. Please tell me why Hadith are necessary at all? I ask this because there are different hadiths for different sects. How can a non Muslim like me determine which hadith are reliable and which are not?

Edited by Charleslemartel

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Thank you for answering my question. Quran, as I understand, is the same for all the sects of Islam. May I now ask which Hadith, which tafseer, and which History do I need to study to understand Islam?

While you are answering my question, please also tell me why a book from Allah is not sufficient to understand Islam when he himself claimed more than once that the Quran is a well explained, clear and easy to understand book.

Right, fair enough. Please tell me why Hadith are necessary at all? I ask this because there are different hadiths for different sects. How can a non Muslim like me determine which hadith are reliable and which are not?

There are 4 sources of Islamic Law. While the first two are necessary, the last two are two be used only in time of need, and decisions produced by the last two sources are not to abrogate or contradict any law of the first two sources.

1. The Holy Quran - word of Allah revealed to His last Messenger (pbuh)

2. Sunnah (of Infallibles) - practices, sayings, quites and judgements of Infallibles

3. Ijma - the general consent of jurists, ulema or the MUSLIM community

4. Aql' - one's own decision, using one's own wisdom

The Quran consists of the basic laws. The details of these laws are given by the Sunnah. For example, the Quran gives the command to pray, but there is no reference of how many rakats of prayer, or the number of prayers, either. These details are learned by the Sunnah.

To give another example, the Quran gives the command to pay Zakah (alms). However, the amount of Zakah obligatory is not specified.

To summarise, the Quran is the core of religion, and the ahadith, its supplement.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

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I wish to hear from the Muslims why Islam is the correct or true religion. Why should one believe in it at all?

well.. because it happened to be.

Shia islam is the only religion that gives non-erroneous concept of GOD.

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There are 4 sources of Islamic Law. While the first two are necessary, the last two are two be used only in time of need, and decisions produced by the last two sources are not to abrogate or contradict any law of the first two sources.

1. The Holy Quran - word of Allah revealed to His last Messenger (pbuh)

2. Sunnah (of Infallibles) - practices, sayings, quites and judgements of Infallibles

3. Ijma - the general consent of jurists, ulema or the MUSLIM community

4. Aql' - one's own decision, using one's own wisdom

The Quran consists of the basic laws. The details of these laws are given by the Sunnah. For example, the Quran gives the command to pray, but there is no reference of how many rakats of prayer, or the number of prayers, either. These details are learned by the Sunnah.

To give another example, the Quran gives the command to pay Zakah (alms). However, the amount of Zakah obligatory is not specified.

To summarise, the Quran is the core of religion, and the ahadith, its supplement.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Thanks again. However, your post does not answer my questions sufficiently. So there are here again:

May I now ask which Hadith, which tafseer, and which History do I need to study to understand Islam?

While you are answering my question, please also tell me why a book from Allah is not sufficient to understand Islam when he himself claimed more than once that the Quran is a well explained, clear and easy to understand book.

well.. because it happened to be.

Shia islam is the only religion that gives non-erroneous concept of GOD.

Two questions, please:

1. How are you sure that a God exists somewhere?

2. How Sunni Islam gives an erroneous concept of God?

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(salam)

(bismillah)

May I now ask which Hadith, which tafseer, and which History do I need to study to understand Islam?

I suggest that you should start from Tafsir Al Mizan. Because this work does not only have commentary Quranic verse by verses, also it have traditions (hadiths) and philosophical viewpoint about the Quranic verses.

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While you are answering my question, please also tell me why a bookfrom Allah is not sufficient to understand Islam when he himselfclaimed more than once that the Quran is a well explained, clear andeasy to understand book.

While some religions may find their entire religion contained between the two covers of a book, Islam is not like that. This is because Islam is not a once-a-week-for-a-few-hours type of religion, it's a way of life, an every-second-of-everyday type of religion. The basics of Islam are contained within the Quran, but if that had been sufficient, there would have been no need to send any messengers to lead people. In schools one learns out of books, and the basics of the course are in the book, but a teacher is required to properly learn the material.

Edited by BabyBeaverIsAKit

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The quran is clear and well explained, and like I said most things are found in it. However the quran does remind us several times to order those who have been placed in authority on the Earth.

Quran 004.059 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

The hadiths are the sayings and practices of the Prophet SAWAS so for example, if you wanted to know how to treat your wife etc then you can find that out. The above verses remind us that the hadiths are a valid source of information.

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May I now ask which Hadith, which tafseer, and which History do I need to study to understand Islam?

Hmm... I apologize for misunderstanding you question.

Well, Islam does not limit itself to one or teo hadith. Moreover, you don't need to go to ahadith if you simply read books written by A'alims. They provide at that is required from the 'Hadith, Tafseer and History' sections.

Visit, the following link, for a start:

http://www.al-islam.org/discover.php

It has many other links, which have e-books, on them.

While you are answering my question, please also tell me why a book from Allah is not sufficient to understand Islam when he himself claimed more than once that the Quran is a well explained, clear and easy to understand book.

Many books claim that, this particular book is 'a complete guide to (some subject)'. In reality, they are complete guides, but one has to understand the guide inorder for the book to function as a guide. In order to understand, this guide, you need another guide, called a teacher. In Islam's case the book, was the Quran, and the teacher is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

If you want to guide some, illiterate people, and you have a complete guide on how to educate them, you can't just hand over the books to them, and ask them to read (supposing they CAN read). Ofcourse, it's not difficult to read a book ,but the difficult part is to understand its spiritual and in-depth meaning.

You need a person who is already familiar with the book, and practices what it says, to teach you. You need to see him practicising the commands in the book and get impressed by the excellent morals of the person, and finally decide to follow in his footsteps. With just the Quran, there will be nobody currently following it, and nobody will understand what it means and feels to follow it.

For example, you read about an experiment in a chemistry book. Although you understand it, and get the concept in your mind, you don't really feel the reality of it until you actually try the experiment yourself.

So, the Quran is not incomplete, it has ALL the principles, one needs to know to understand Islam, however, you need someone to present to you the Quran, and the best way of pesentation is self-practise, as Mahathma Gandhi's quote goes,

" An ounce of practise is worth, more than a ton of preaching. "

Since you can't have this presentor 'someone' all the time from Adam to the Last Day, the principles needed to understand the principles of the Quran are put into books, called ahadith (plural of hadith). Morover, we have lecturers and Ayatullah, to solve something we do not undertand, and tell us more about Islam.

1. How are you sure that a God exists somewhere?

The question that should arise shouldn't be 'How are you so sure God exists somewhere?'. The question that should arise is that how are you so NOT sure that God exists somewhere?'.

If there wouldn't be a God, no one would preach that there is a God. Let's assume that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was lying, forging, etc. a religion, to get famous. (Nauzubillah) But if he wanted to be famous, and he was sure that he was so convincing with his words that half the world would be Muslim, even 1400 years after his arrival, why would he direct the people's though towards another God, and not himself? He could easily have said, He was God. There must be a reason he did not call himself God, and called Allah, God. And not only Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), according to a tradition, 124,000,00 messengers came before the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) all with the message of wroshipping God alone. Many people actually followed these messengers. But if the messengers wanted fame, and only fame, they could have achieved something even greater, perhaps worship, day and night, by doing so. Why would they want to waste their lives, preaching about another God?

That is ONE reason why I believe God does exist. I can not state all of them, due to shortage of time.

2. How Sunni Islam gives an erroneous concept of God?

I can not name all the reason here. But I advise you to go through, and explore ALL the relevant topics discussed in Shia/Sunni forum on SC.

The most direct and obvious reason is that ahadith in Sunni books portray Allah having human features, such as hands, thighs, etc. They also display the Infallible, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a mistake-making, forgetful person.

[NOTE: The Sunni hadith books which I am talking about are accepted as 'Most Authentic', and even 'Most Authentic after The Quran' in Sunni fiqh]

Here are links to, especially, erroneous ahadith in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim:

Look at chapters 7 and 8

http://www.al-islam..org/ask/index.html

http://www.gateofknowledge.com/docs/siaesitta.htm

For debates conversations between Shias and Sunnis:

http://www.al-islam.org/explore.php

http://books.shiachat.com/ (this one has e-books, visit the section called 'Shia-Sunni comparative beliefs'

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

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When understanding Islam at a scholarly/intellectual level, you find that it is like a triangle - it consists of Theology - relationship with god, Ethics - relationship with others and finally jurispudence - relationship with yourself; you find that it teaches you to 'perfect' (reach a certain level in physical&pritual developement) yourself in all these sections, thus bringing a god-conscious,aware,morally enhanced(the list goes on and on) Human being. Hope i've done the least slightest justice to it^_^. Peace.

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Two questions, please:

1. How are you sure that a God exists somewhere?

2. How Sunni Islam gives an erroneous concept of God?

1. I researched that thoroughly. Logically there must be a god. (based on Logic only) my logical conclusion if there was not God, nothing would have existed. The hypothesis of God is essential to explain existence.

and btw. god is no where, he is not in Place. not everywhere. God is beyond time and space.

2. My logical experiment (or thought experiment à la Shroedinger :) ) leads to "GOD" must not be an object, not associated with time nor space. That is why i rule most common sunni (especially wahabi) believes that GOD has Hands or Legs or exist in a definite place. or a go that looks like human, Such God does not exist.

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why not ?

islam is religion of fitra-human nature- that all is asking you is to be human and make your race distinctive from animals

yes human has desires, yes human has needs but human too has mind , btw plantish animalish and intellect nature that human being hold btw is the balance that islam is asking us to reach

so why not to become human ? every one can do that without religion?no ,though some might be close enough to islam approech that they may deserve heaven even they are not muslims

and again why not ?

Allah created us with fitra so we know there is one and only god, no need for logic nor for philosophy , maybe only to support some claims, but most who come to islam come to it cause it fits them , it is what they were seeking , it is their nature , it is where they felt peace from within no matter how chaotic their life might look

why islam ? islam is self honesty ,clarity peace and tranqulity

islam is the meaning of life , the way and disteny, the meaning of death the way and disteny

islam is not arabs ideals nor midlle east ideals, lots of its teachings are not practiced there ,and so islam is not western ideals , if you are seeking a religion that fits your ideals then creat your own , dont wait from muslims to change their religion to a matiralistic approach of life just to fit some poepel veiw of what life is about

islam is not a -counter act- of some mischeve in middle east , it is not an angery revolution ,it has nothing to do with history mistakes , if peopel kill using knives that dosnt mean kives are evil, it means poepel are , smae goes with religion , some use it as cover as a tool, as muslims we dont mix btw the 2 , we go back and treat that person as human that have needs and desires and mind

why -why islam-?

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While some religions may find their entire religion contained between the two covers of a book, Islam is not like that. This is because Islam is not a once-a-week-for-a-few-hours type of religion, it's a way of life, an every-second-of-everyday type of religion. The basics of Islam are contained within the Quran, but if that had been sufficient, there would have been no need to send any messengers to lead people. In schools one learns out of books, and the basics of the course are in the book, but a teacher is required to properly learn the material.

Your post is very reasonable when applied to any book other than Quran. But I am a actually asking about Allah's claims that Quran was well explained and clear and easy to understand book. If we still need all those hadiths, tafseers and scholars, don't you think those claims are wrong?

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Quran isn't Islam. So you need, Quran+Hadith+Tafseers(optional)+Hisotry, in order to understand Islam, in depth.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

great reply yes.

i follow islam cause it makes sense to me, i couldnt ever follow christainity cause of the trinity.(no offense)

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Your post is very reasonable when applied to any book other than Quran. But I am a actually asking about Allah's claims that Quran was well explained and clear and easy to understand book. If we still need all those hadiths, tafseers and scholars, don't you think those claims are wrong?

Before we proceed in our discussion, why don't you post the verse or hadith or whatever you want to discuss that makes this claim? That way we can lay out a framework for our discussion. While I would be happy to respond directly without the verse, I don't think that would be the most productive for our discussion. So in sum, reference first, talk later smile.gif.

Edited by BabyBeaverIsAKit

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Please tell me why Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are not good enough.

The compilers of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim did not include thousands of hadith in their collection. Thus leaving behind a bulk of information.

Before Prophet passed away he said I am leaving behind two heavy things among you, Quran and my close relatives (Ahlul Bait). If you hold on to them you wont get astray. Unfortunately, these books have very few hadith from the family of the Prophet (Ahlul Bait) who were closest to him. Also they claim them to contain only Sahih (authentic) hadith, many of these hadith are not authentic.

Your post is very reasonable when applied to any book other than Quran. But I am a actually asking about Allah's claims that Quran was well explained and clear and easy to understand book. If we still need all those hadiths, tafseers and scholars, don't you think those claims are wrong?

The answer to your question: http://almizan.org/Discourses/TD1.asp

Edited by Orion

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Thanks to you Basim Ali for a good post.

Many books claim that, this particular book is 'a complete guide to (some subject)'. In reality, they are complete guides, but one has to understand the guide inorder for the book to function as a guide. In order to understand, this guide, you need another guide, called a teacher. In Islam's case the book, was the Quran, and the teacher is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If you want to guide some, illiterate people, and you have a complete guide on how to educate them, you can't just hand over the books to them, and ask them to read (supposing they CAN read). Ofcourse, it's not difficult to read a book ,but the difficult part is to understand its spiritual and in-depth meaning.

You need a person who is already familiar with the book, and practices what it says, to teach you. You need to see him practicising the commands in the book and get impressed by the excellent morals of the person, and finally decide to follow in his footsteps. With just the Quran, there will be nobody currently following it, and nobody will understand what it means and feels to follow it.

For example, you read about an experiment in a chemistry book. Although you understand it, and get the concept in your mind, you don't really feel the reality of it until you actually try the experiment yourself.

So, the Quran is not incomplete, it has ALL the principles, one needs to know to understand Islam, however, you need someone to present to you the Quran, and the best way of pesentation is self-practise, as Mahathma Gandhi's quote goes,

" An ounce of practise is worth, more than a ton of preaching. "

Since you can't have this presentor 'someone' all the time from Adam to the Last Day, the principles needed to understand the principles of the Quran are put into books, called ahadith (plural of hadith). Morover, we have lecturers and Ayatullah, to solve something we do not undertand, and tell us more about Islam.

You have explained the issue very well and I fully agree with your examples. The only thing I am stuck at :) is that if a book is well explained, clear, and easy to understand, it should not need any commentaries and explanations to make itself clear. I hope you get my point. To me, all those hadiths and tafseers raise questions about Quran being well explained, clear, and easy to understand.

Let us now drop this issue, as we are at a stand-off now.

The question that should arise shouldn't be 'How are you so sure God exists somewhere?'. The question that should arise is that how are you so NOT sure that God exists somewhere?'.

If there wouldn't be a God, no one would preach that there is a God.

Humanity was told for long that the earth is flat and stationary, and still that was proved to be wrong information ultimately. So, the argument of preaching does not stand.

It is easy to answer your question: "There is no evidence".

Let's assume that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was lying, forging, etc. a religion, to get famous. (Nauzubillah) But if he wanted to be famous, and he was sure that he was so convincing with his words that half the world would be Muslim, even 1400 years after his arrival, why would he direct the people's though towards another God, and not himself? He could easily have said, He was God. There must be a reason he did not call himself God, and called Allah, God.

Because he knew that he would be asked to perform miracles and give evidence for being all powerful and all knowing if he claimed that.

And not only Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), according to a tradition, 124,000,00 messengers came before the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) all with the message of wroshipping God alone. Many people actually followed these messengers. But if the messengers wanted fame, and only fame, they could have achieved something even greater, perhaps worship, day and night, by doing so. Why would they want to waste their lives, preaching about another God?

That is ONE reason why I believe God does exist. I can not state all of them, due to shortage of time.

May be those preachers really believed that God existed and that they were his messengers. There have been many people even after Muhammad who believed the same about themselves. But I hope you would agree that beliefs of people constitutes of no evidence.

I can not name all the reason here. But I advise you to go through, and explore ALL the relevant topics discussed in Shia/Sunni forum on SC.

The most direct and obvious reason is that ahadith in Sunni books portray Allah having human features, such as hands, thighs, etc. They also display the Infallible, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a mistake-making, forgetful person.

Allah talks of his hands, and also about his throne in Quran. It doesn't sound too unreasonable to assume that may be he has a body. The debate about something being literal or allegorical can continue ad nauseam and will remain inconclusive. But I tend to read the Quran literally for two reasons: one, it claims to be clear and allegories or metaphors are NOT clear by their very nature. And second, when some statement is taken as allegorical or metaphorical, one can glean any number of meanings from that statement and argue against other meanings indefinitely. This would make it impossible to get the actual meaning of the statement.

Thanks for a good post again. I enjoyed reading your post which actually provided some arguments and not only mere assertions.

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Hello Zufa,

Please tell me why Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are not good enough.

(salam) Charleslemartel

(bismillah)

I do not have any authority to say that Sahih Bukhari and Muslims collections are not good enought. Because i'm not too familiar with these books. But what i follow is the following principle that if the hadith does contradict with Holy Quran then the hadith should be rejected.

Edited by Zufa

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Before we proceed in our discussion, why don't you post the verse or hadith or whatever you want to discuss that makes this claim? That way we can lay out a framework for our discussion. While I would be happy to respond directly without the verse, I don't think that would be the most productive for our discussion. So in sum, reference first, talk later smile.gif.

Because that is wholly unnecessary as both of us know which verses I am talking about. I would quote them if you deny that Quran ever claimed that.

I have already been chided once for quoting Quran left and right :lol:

Edited by Charleslemartel

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(salam) Charleslemartel

(bismillah)

I do not have any authority to say that Sahih Bukhari and Muslims collections are not good enought. Because i'm not too familiar with these books. But what i follow is the following principle that if the hadith does contradict with Holy Quran then the hadith should be rejected.

Does it mean that if a hadith does not contradict the Quran, it should not be rejected?

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Does it mean that if a hadith does not contradict the Quran, it should not be rejected?

no if the hadith does not contradict the quran it still has to be observed and looked at whether its a good hadith or bad hadith.

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Does it mean that if a hadith does not contradict the Quran, it should not be rejected?

(salam)

(bismillah)

It's also depend of the chain, authenticity and reliability of the hadith before accepting any.

Edited by Zufa

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Because that is wholly unnecessary as both of us know which verses I am talking about. I would quote them if you deny that Quran ever claimed that.

I have already been chided once for quoting Quran left and right :lol:

Just as you have the right to refuse to post those verses, I have the right to bow out of this discussion. Have fun discussing with everyone else :).

Edited by BabyBeaverIsAKit

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I wish to hear from the Muslims why Islam is the correct or true religion. Why should one believe in it at all?

It would be dishonest if I told you that I arrived at Islam by pure reasoning.

But I can tell you, that having been fortunate enough to be born in the faith, there is no way I can ever consider leaving. And I will give you two reason why ?

#1 I have not found a religious leader in any other faith as extraordinary as Imam Ali. There is no absolutely no equal.

#2 I have not found any sacrifice as extraordinarily profound as that of Imam Hussain. There is no comparison.

Now you might ask "What about the Holy Prophet"? The answer is that sure, he is greater than our Imams. But with the distortion of history, it becomes sometimes difficult to prove the point, at least to others.

But with two extraordinary individuals, both indefatigable advocates of Islam - Imam Ali and Imam Hussain - there is no way I could consider leaving, however much the theories of science might suggest otherwise.

I am a student of science, and when I read evolution or other theories, I always tell myself "After all, science has not reached its zenith. There must be a hole yet to be discovered".

But to abandon Imam Ali and Imam Hussain will clearly be the most foolish decision of my life. It is relatively easy to learn science, it is not so easy to encounter such magnificent personalities.

Thanks to historians, there is not much discord in the accounts of Imam Ali's life. Many story-tellers tried to fabricate false hadeethes about Imam Ali. Thankfully, most, though not all, have been dropped by most rival groups in Islam.

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#1 I have not found a religious leader in any other faith as extraordinary as Imam Ali. There is no absolutely no equal.

#2 I have not found any sacrifice as extraordinarily profound as that of Imam Hussain. There is no comparison.

I agree^150%

We believe these famous personalities were chosen guides by Allah s.w.t(through the Prophet when he elected Imam Ali a.s) for us, if you look into human psychology too, the two most important things that make it up are Love&Grief/Sorrow

Love of Imam Ali A.S

Sorrow for Imam Hussein A.S

-- just to highlight, we love them excessively because of their morals and what they taught us, it is not the actual person we love excessively, we love their morals, what they did for Islaam because that is what they wanted us to take forward and put into our own lives, reminds me of a story(probably can find a hadeeth for you later):

I cant remember which battle, but Imam Ali A.S was on a 1v1 combat with someone, because of his excellent swordsmanship, he was able to disarm the opponent of his sword and not only that, but break it into two pieces.. the man fell to the ground trembling, so Imam Ali a.s started leaving, the man told him to finish him off, he replied "I Do Not Strike A Man Who Fears For His Life" - the man then urged him by saying "You are Ali right? I hear you never say no to any one who begs from you?" Imam Ali a.s replied by saying "yes, that is correct" .. The man then asked for Imam Ali's sword, Imam Ali a.s gave it to him then the man got up and said "I have your sword now, I'm going to slash you, you were foolish to give me your weapon" - Imam Ali a.s replied "my weapon is my heart and love for Allah s.w.t" - the man immediately burst into tears at the unbelieveable personality this man possesed, he said "Forgive me Ali, you have won me, I want to join you" - Imam Ali a.s replied happily by saying :"Love me not for who I am, Love me for who and what I stand for" (Islaam/Allah s.w.t)

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