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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Charleslemartel

Why Islam?

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Thanks to you Basim Ali for a good post.

You welcome. :)

You have explained the issue very well and I fully agree with your examples. The only thing I am stuck at :) is that if a book is well explained, clear, and easy to understand, it should not need any commentaries and explanations to make itself clear. I hope you get my point. To me, all those hadiths and tafseers raise questions about Quran being well explained, clear, and easy to understand.

Well Quran really is easy to understand, I never said it wasn't. The Quran has always been and always will be a mystery in some parts. Many verses have double meaning, which we might not get for another few hundered years. The person has to be extremely wise to understand the Quran to its fullest, get every meaning out of it.

What is wonderful about the Quran is

[1] that it offers knowledge to whoever reads it. The wise ofcourse get a better meaning and understanding out of it, and even the rather foolish manage to understand Islam through, even though they might not get the hidden meaning.

[2] it is applicable to a person of every race and every time. Many books, about the way of life, are applicable to a particular country, or a particular time. A book about times where there is peace and harmony all over the world, wouldn't ofcourse function as required during a time of war. That is EXACTLY why the Quran had to be revealed. The books revealed previously to pre-Muhammad (pbuh) , messengers were only for the people of THAT particular age and nation. The Quran is applicable, everywhere, at every time, with no exceptions. That IS why it's called Universal Law!

Beliefs in theories of Islam are so inter-linked and inter-dependent that you can't believe one theory without the other. First and foremest, a Muslim needs to believe that whatever Allah does, He does for good. There is a reason behind it, and since he is the possessor of all the wisdom, he knows what is best when and where. If one firmly believe in this theory, he won't ever question what happens to him or to the world - EVER! If grief strikes him at a particular time, he accepts it, knowing that it was best for him to get it at this time, or it could have been worse later on.

Similarly, if one believes in the above stated theory, he won't question why was the Quran revealed, why this time and not earlier, why a supplement (prophet Muhammad (pbuh) etc. I understand that these points being answered are a necessity for atheists, but like I said, beliefs are inter-related, you can't prove one belief without already having the other in your heart.

Humanity was told for long that the earth is flat and stationary, and still that was proved to be wrong information ultimately. So, the argument of preaching does not stand.

It is easy to answer your question: "There is no evidence".

Where was Humanity told that the world was flat and stationary? It was the people's own misconception and religious beliefs. It is a person's own will to assume things and believe that they are true. Noone has anything to do, if he spreads this assumption as a theory to others and make them believe in it too.

There always is a reason when a person spreads a lie. He either wants respect, he wants to get famous, he wants money, he wants to be worshipped, etc. One can think of many reason why a person might have come up with a theory that the world is flat, because it seems flat! And the theory that the Earth is stationary because the Earth seems stationary! It's not hard to tell people what they already know! What is hard to tell to people is something that goes against what they already know.

Preaching somebody else as God, can't possibly get another person anything except misery, abuses, etc. especially in a land of illiterate Arabs who worshipped idols where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) descended. Why would a person want to put his own life and respect at stake to make people believe on something that doesn't even exist, God?! (taking into consideration your question about the proof of how God exists)

Because he knew that he would be asked to perform miracles and give evidence for being all powerful and all knowing if he claimed that.

Ah, but you're forgetting that he DID perform miracles. That made it even easier for him to claim he was God, and make the people worship him. Yet he continued to claim that there was another God. Even Prophet Isa (Jesus) (as) did so many miracles, like bringing the dead to life, curing the blind and lepers, making a bird out of clay, etc. Yet he continued to claim there was another God, but the people did not listen to him. They claimed that he was God and not him claim that there was another God!

So you see, there are times when even followers don't follow theur God's claim that there is another God!

May be those preachers really believed that God existed and that they were his messengers. There have been many people even after Muhammad who believed the same about themselves. But I hope you would agree that beliefs of people constitutes of no evidence.

Oh, I'm sure you're talking about Musailma, the liar. It was difficult for EVERY messenger to establish himself as a messenger. As you mentioned the people demanded miracles, from them. Others just noticed how truthful he was before he bacame messenger and believed that such a truthful person can not lie, and hence accepted Islam.

It isn't that simple. All the Prophets who came before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prophecied another LAST Prophet (pbuh) to come. Even, mentioned his name, Ahmad (which is another name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)).

People after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not believe the same for themselves. If there are 40 teachers in a room, and one of them is faking. That one WON'T believe that he is a teacher! It's obvious.

Allah talks of his hands, and also about his throne in Quran. It doesn't sound too unreasonable to assume that may be he has a body. The debate about something being literal or allegorical can continue ad nauseam and will remain inconclusive. But I tend to read the Quran literally for two reasons: one, it claims to be clear and allegories or metaphors are NOT clear by their very nature. And second, when some statement is taken as allegorical or metaphorical, one can glean any number of meanings from that statement and argue against other meanings indefinitely. This would make it impossible to get the actual meaning of the statement.

No, it IS unreasonable to give Allah a figuirative body, because He doesn't have one. It is accepted that he is a Noor or light.

Saying that one's grip is on something, doesn't mean that one MUST have a hand in order to grip. Again the principle of inter-linked beliefs comes here. It comes behind like a shadow, everywhere we go! :lol:

If one strongly believes that Allah is nothing like us, and we are a hopeless drop of water in front of a huge sea, in comparison to Allah, he won't give Allah a human picture.

Saying that Charles is a horse on the race track, doesn't make him a horse! or saying the Prophet (pbuh) and his Progeny (as) is the backbone of Islam does not make then calcium bones! These description are used a metaphors, which are a very good description of a particular thing. Like I describing Allah a sea, does not make him a sea but manages to glorify him as a sea in front of a drop of water. I think you must've gotten what I mean by now, so there is no further need of examples.

So if a person believes that we are miles away from understanding what does Allah look like, there is no need to enter into a debate of whether a particular description used in the Quran is used as a metaphor or in literal meaning. Thus when Sunni books literally describe Allah as showing His thigh to His believers on the Last Day, makes one an unbeliever of Tawhid(oneness and uniqueness of Allah), and therefore a Kafir (unbeliever).

I seem to be boasting, but just wondering, woul it come as a surprise to you that I am just a 13 year old boy! Humanity has told you that all 13 year old know is mischief, but... seems familiar? :P

Thanks for a good post again. I enjoyed reading your post which actually provided some arguments and not only mere assertions.

I enjoy talking to people who try to challenge everything presented to them.

May you find the right path, Inshallah.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

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no comment on my participation ... do i take it that CharlesMartel is ok with it?!

Hello culturei, Sorry to have ignored your post. But that was because you only made assertions, and did not put forward any argument.

1. I researched that thoroughly. Logically there must be a god. (based on Logic only) my logical conclusion if there was not God, nothing would have existed. The hypothesis of God is essential to explain existence.

and btw. god is no where, he is not in Place. not everywhere. God is beyond time and space.

Please show me the logic.

2. My logical experiment (or thought experiment à la Shroedinger :) ) leads to "GOD" must not be an object, not associated with time nor space. That is why i rule most common sunni (especially wahabi) believes that GOD has Hands or Legs or exist in a definite place. or a go that looks like human, Such God does not exist.

Please tell me about your thought experiment.

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Well Quran really is easy to understand, I never said it wasn't. The Quran has always been and always will be a mystery in some parts. Many verses have double meaning, which we might not get for another few hundered years. The person has to be extremely wise to understand the Quran to its fullest, get every meaning out of it.

Well obviously that means the book is not easy to understand :)

What is wonderful about the Quran is

[1] that it offers knowledge to whoever reads it. The wise ofcourse get a better meaning and understanding out of it, and even the rather foolish manage to understand Islam through, even though they might not get the hidden meaning.

Books with hidden meanings can't be called "easy to understand" :)

[2] it is applicable to a person of every race and every time. Many books, about the way of life, are applicable to a particular country, or a particular time. A book about times where there is peace and harmony all over the world, wouldn't ofcourse function as required during a time of war. That is EXACTLY why the Quran had to be revealed. The books revealed previously to pre-Muhammad (pbuh) , messengers were only for the people of THAT particular age and nation. The Quran is applicable, everywhere, at every time, with no exceptions. That IS why it's called Universal Law!

Beliefs in theories of Islam are so inter-linked and inter-dependent that you can't believe one theory without the other. First and foremest, a Muslim needs to believe that whatever Allah does, He does for good. There is a reason behind it, and since he is the possessor of all the wisdom, he knows what is best when and where. If one firmly believe in this theory, he won't ever question what happens to him or to the world - EVER! If grief strikes him at a particular time, he accepts it, knowing that it was best for him to get it at this time, or it could have been worse later on.

Similarly, if one believes in the above stated theory, he won't question why was the Quran revealed, why this time and not earlier, why a supplement (prophet Muhammad (pbuh) etc. I understand that these points being answered are a necessity for atheists, but like I said, beliefs are inter-related, you can't prove one belief without already having the other in your heart.

I don't think you can't see the problem in your post; you are too smart for that. First one needs to believe that Allah exists. Then he needs to believe that whatever he does, he does for good. Then again he needs to believe that he is the possessor of all the wisdom. All of this without any questioning and without asking for any evidence!! And voila, all problems are solves :lol:

A Christian, a Hindu or a Sikh can give exactly the same explanation for his beliefs, and you wouldn't have any argument against him.

Where was Humanity told that the world was flat and stationary? It was the people's own misconception and religious beliefs. It is a person's own will to assume things and believe that they are true. Noone has anything to do, if he spreads this assumption as a theory to others and make them believe in it too.

There always is a reason when a person spreads a lie. He either wants respect, he wants to get famous, he wants money, he wants to be worshipped, etc. One can think of many reason why a person might have come up with a theory that the world is flat, because it seems flat! And the theory that the Earth is stationary because the Earth seems stationary! It's not hard to tell people what they already know! What is hard to tell to people is something that goes against what they already know.

Preaching somebody else as God, can't possibly get another person anything except misery, abuses, etc. especially in a land of illiterate Arabs who worshipped idols where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) descended. Why would a person want to put his own life and respect at stake to make people believe on something that doesn't even exist, God?! (taking into consideration your question about the proof of how God exists)

As you yourself have stated, there might be many reasons a person would try to spread a lie. He also actually might believe in what he preaches. But that does not make his belief correct. And his conviction, or readiness to risk his life, does not constitute of an evidence for the correctness of his beliefs.

Ah, but you're forgetting that he DID perform miracles. That made it even easier for him to claim he was God, and make the people worship him. Yet he continued to claim that there was another God. Even Prophet Isa (Jesus) (as) did so many miracles, like bringing the dead to life, curing the blind and lepers, making a bird out of clay, etc. Yet he continued to claim there was another God, but the people did not listen to him. They claimed that he was God and not him claim that there was another God!

So you see, there are times when even followers don't follow theur God's claim that there is another God!

Which miracles did Muhammad perform? If I remember correctly, Quran actually argues about why Muhammad did not perform miracles.

Oh, I'm sure you're talking about Musailma, the liar. It was difficult for EVERY messenger to establish himself as a messenger. As you mentioned the people demanded miracles, from them. Others just noticed how truthful he was before he bacame messenger and believed that such a truthful person can not lie, and hence accepted Islam.

It isn't that simple. All the Prophets who came before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prophecied another LAST Prophet (pbuh) to come. Even, mentioned his name, Ahmad (which is another name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)).

People after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not believe the same for themselves. If there are 40 teachers in a room, and one of them is faking. That one WON'T believe that he is a teacher! It's obvious.

Sorry, but the theory that Muhammad was prophesied by others before him has been debunked many a times. If you wish, I can find and provide you with links if you tell me where he was predicted.

No, it IS unreasonable to give Allah a figuirative body, because He doesn't have one. It is accepted that he is a Noor or light.

Saying that one's grip is on something, doesn't mean that one MUST have a hand in order to grip. Again the principle of inter-linked beliefs comes here. It comes behind like a shadow, everywhere we go! :lol:

If one strongly believes that Allah is nothing like us, and we are a hopeless drop of water in front of a huge sea, in comparison to Allah, he won't give Allah a human picture.

Saying that Charles is a horse on the race track, doesn't make him a horse! or saying the Prophet (pbuh) and his Progeny (as) is the backbone of Islam does not make then calcium bones! These description are used a metaphors, which are a very good description of a particular thing. Like I describing Allah a sea, does not make him a sea but manages to glorify him as a sea in front of a drop of water. I think you must've gotten what I mean by now, so there is no further need of examples.

So if a person believes that we are miles away from understanding what does Allah look like, there is no need to enter into a debate of whether a particular description used in the Quran is used as a metaphor or in literal meaning. Thus when Sunni books literally describe Allah as showing His thigh to His believers on the Last Day, makes one an unbeliever of Tawhid(oneness and uniqueness of Allah), and therefore a Kafir (unbeliever).

Sorry, but your post does not counter my arguments except for saying that one needs to believe STRONGLY :lol:

And I have already addressed the question of "strongly believing" above.

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charles, I think you are slightly confused as to the Quran being "easy to understand". No one claimed a child could read it and know about everything etc. There are generally 2 types of verses, ones that a literal/fundamental, such as "dont kill, dont steal etc etc", and then there are others which are more complex and require a level of intellect and knowledge to interpret. These verses are not for lay people to ponder about, the lay people have the fundamental verses which clarify all general rules.

3:7

åõæó ÇáøóÐöí ÃóäúÒóáó Úóáóíúßó ÇáúßöÊóÇÈó ãöäúåõ ÂíóÇÊñ ãõÍúßóãóÇÊñ åõäøó Ãõãøõ ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö æóÃõÎóÑõ ãõÊóÔóÇÈöåóÇÊñ ÝóÃóãøóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó Ýöí ÞõáõæÈöåöãú ÒóíúÛñ ÝóíóÊøóÈöÚõæäó ãóÇ ÊóÔóÇÈóåó ãöäúåõ ÇÈúÊöÛóÇÁó ÇáúÝöÊúäóÉö æóÇÈúÊöÛóÇÁó ÊóÃúæöíáöåö æóãóÇ íóÚúáóãõ ÊóÃúæöíáóåõ ÅöáÇ Çááøóåõ æóÇáÑøóÇÓöÎõæäó Ýöí ÇáúÚöáúãö íóÞõæáõæäó ÂãóäøóÇ Èöåö ßõáøñ ãöäú ÚöäúÏö ÑóÈøöäóÇ æóãóÇ íóÐøóßøóÑõ ÅöáÇ Ãõæáõæ ÇáÃáúÈóÇÈö

Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa ta/weelihi wama yaAAlamu ta/weelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

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(salam),

I apologize for my late reply.

Well obviously that means the book is not easy to understand :)

Sorry, but that does not mean the book is difficult to understand. It is understood by everybody. However, the wise seem to understand it better than the rather foolish, whom you would not expect to understand the Quran at all. It's natural, a wise man can understand anything better than a foolish one.

Books with hidden meanings can't be called "easy to understand" :)

Compare these two cases:

Lets say you have a book written in a language nobody can understand. It has hidden meaning, therefore it is hard to understand. You know it has hidden meaning, until you crack the code.

Now there is this another book, written in English for example. You can understand each word of it quite clearly. You read it, it makes sense to you, easy to understand. You discover that if you connect the first letter of every chapter in it, a word forms, which proves the existance of, the 14 Infallibles, for example. It was easy to understand before, the meaning was clear, but you found something hidden in the book, but as long as you understand what the book means to make you understand, the book is not not difficult.

I don't think you can't see the problem in your post; you are too smart for that. First one needs to believe that Allah exists. Then he needs to believe that whatever he does, he does for good. Then again he needs to believe that he is the possessor of all the wisdom. All of this without any questioning and without asking for any evidence!! And voila, all problems are solves :lol:

Like I said in another topic, you have not actually been to the moon, yet you believe that there has been a first landing on the moon. What if the movie was made in a studio? What if the movie of first landing faked? You continue to believe in it, you have no evidence! Everything can be faked.

Do you not think that if there was such an obvious proof of God's existance, there would be no non-Muslim on Earth? So forget about anyone showing you a video where God himself say, 'Hi, I'm God. I exist, becuase you have seen me in this video!' :!!!: :!!!:

As you yourself have stated, there might be many reasons a person would try to spread a lie. He also actually might believe in what he preaches. But that does not make his belief correct. And his conviction, or readiness to risk his life, does not constitute of an evidence for the correctness of his beliefs.

Well we aren't talking about 1 or two person here! We're talking about 124,000 Prophets, who risked their lives and preached about One God. One person might be trying to spread a lie and he may pass on the message to his son so that makes two persons and to the most, 10 person might achieve success in spreading the lie. But a lie is always revealed, in its later stages.

If Islam was a lie, all along, it would not have been able to survive for 20 years let alone 1400 years, in it's original form. I'm not saying that Islam has not got distortions, however, the true sect, Jafari sect, still remains.

Which miracles did Muhammad perform? If I remember correctly, Quran actually argues about why Muhammad did not perform miracles.

Ah, but you don't remember correctly! A few miracles that happened:

  1. Muhammad threw a handful of dust on the assissns who gathered around his house to kill him, and they were blinded temporarily, such that they did not see their target passing by them.
  2. While he remained in the Cave of Thaur for 3 days, 2 doves laid eggs outside the cave and a spider spun a web on the entrance, protecting Muhammad's life.
  3. Seperating the moon into two pieces.

The iracles are Divinely inspired. However, as per your own belief that God does not exist, these miracles are performed by Muhammad himself.

Sorry, but the theory that Muhammad was prophesied by others before him has been debunked many a times. If you wish, I can find and provide you with links if you tell me where he was predicted.

The Quran says that Isa (as) predicted the descent of 'Ahmad'. That enough, is sifficient for me to believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was prophecied.

The Quran poses a challenge to produce a single chapter with rhyme AND meaning in ARABIC. If YOU or anybody can do it, than, I, like you, will become and athiest.

Sorry, but your post does not counter my arguments except for saying that one needs to believe STRONGLY :lol:

And I have already addressed the question of "strongly believing" above.

Nobody is forcing you to accept Islam. If you don't see Muslim explanations with a positive approach, it's pointless to even as us to prove the existance of God. It's like you have decided to remain atheist for the whole of your life and yet you ask people to prove that God exists. You must remember that we can only provide you with some proofs, the ultimate decision to accept them as proofs lies in you hands and sticking to atheism won't do. A person seeks guidance from another religion only when he is unsure of his current religion. Why waste ours and your own time if you have decided to remain an atheist for the rest of your life and won't accept proofs as proofs?

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

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(salam),

I apologize for my late reply.

Sorry, but that does not mean the book is difficult to understand. It is understood by everybody. However, the wise seem to understand it better than the rather foolish, whom you would not expect to understand the Quran at all. It's natural, a wise man can understand anything better than a foolish one.

Compare these two cases:

Lets say you have a book written in a language nobody can understand. It has hidden meaning, therefore it is hard to understand. You know it has hidden meaning, until you crack the code.

Now there is this another book, written in English for example. You can understand each word of it quite clearly. You read it, it makes sense to you, easy to understand. You discover that if you connect the first letter of every chapter in it, a word forms, which proves the existance of, the 14 Infallibles, for example. It was easy to understand before, the meaning was clear, but you found something hidden in the book, but as long as you understand what the book means to make you understand, the book is not not difficult.

So what did Allah wanted us to understand by "seven heavens"?

Well we aren't talking about 1 or two person here! We're talking about 124,000 Prophets, who risked their lives and preached about One God. One person might be trying to spread a lie and he may pass on the message to his son so that makes two persons and to the most, 10 person might achieve success in spreading the lie. But a lie is always revealed, in its later stages.

If Islam was a lie, all along, it would not have been able to survive for 20 years let alone 1400 years, in it's original form. I'm not saying that Islam has not got distortions, however, the true sect, Jafari sect, still remains.

Are you a Jafari? LOL. To a Sunni, the Sunni sect is the true sect, and similarly to each of the 71 or so sects in Islam, their own sect is the true sect.

The problem with believers is that they accept anything their religious authorities tell them. Do you have ANY evidence for those 124000 prophets? If Islam was the truth, it wouldn't fear anything and wouldn't restrict preaching of other religions in the Islamic countries. If it was the truth, it wouldn't force a Muslim to remain Muslim till death. No scientist or science book threatens you with death or hell if you ridicule his/its theories. You want to argue against evolution? Well, you are welcome to. You wouldn't be punished for not believing in evolution. At the most people may call you a fool and ignorant.

And Islam IS getting exposed all over the world, now that the facility of writing anonymously has become possible for people.

Risking life by one or a billion men constitutes of no evidence.

Ah, but you don't remember correctly! A few miracles that happened:

  1. Muhammad threw a handful of dust on the assissns who gathered around his house to kill him, and they were blinded temporarily, such that they did not see their target passing by them.
  2. While he remained in the Cave of Thaur for 3 days, 2 doves laid eggs outside the cave and a spider spun a web on the entrance, protecting Muhammad's life.
  3. Seperating the moon into two pieces.

The iracles are Divinely inspired. However, as per your own belief that God does not exist, these miracles are performed by Muhammad himself.

The first miracle is being performed on probably a daily basis by people who are cornered by attackers, LOL.

The second (spider's net) is also not a miracle which keeps happening every night in front of the gate of my garden. The pigeon's eggs are not more than a simple coincidence.

The third one has been debunked so many times, that I do not even feel like bringing here something to debunk that miracle again. However, I will debunk your claims through Quran itself. Here is what Ali Sina wrote on the miracles of Muhammad: (http://www.islam-watch.org/AliSina/MuhammadMiracles.htm)

Muhammad never performed any miracle and found it useless. In the following verse Muhammad is acknowledging that other prophets before him came with miracles or clear signs but still people rejected them, highlighting the futility of miracles as the proof of his revelation.

Q. 03: 138

They (also) said: "Allah took our promise not to believe in an messenger unless He showed us a sacrifice consumed by Fire (From heaven)." Say: "There came to you messengers before me, with clear Signs and even with what ye ask for: why then did ye slay them, if ye speak the truth?" if you are truthful?

All along, the unbelievers asked Muhammad to perform a miracle so that they could believe. All they got in response was,

Q. 17: 90

They say: "We shall not believe in thee, until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,

And he would reply:

Q. 17: 93

Say: "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"

People doubted Muhammad because they saw nothing extraordinary or miraculous in him.

Q. 17: 94

And naught prevented mankind from believing when the guidance came unto them save that they said: Hath Allah sent a mortal as (His) messenger?

Q. 25: 7

And they say: "What sort of a messenger is this, who eats food, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him?

Q. 25: 8

"Or (Why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment?" The wicked say: "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched."

But Muhammad kept telling them that he is just an ordinary man not an angel, meaning people should not expect miracles from him!

Q. 17: 95

Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.

The common sense dictates that no one would deny and call a man who performs such mighty miracles like splitting the moon, as believed by all the Muslims a mad man or possessed. But the people who knew him actually called him by these names.

Q. 15: 06

They say: "O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! truly thou art mad (or possessed)!.

No one would demand him miracles if he had already performed one

Q. 15: 07

Why do you not bring to us the angels if you are of the truthful ones?

But Muhammad responded

Q. 15: 08

We send not the angels down except for just cause: if they came (to the ungodly), behold! no respite would they have!

The Qurai[Edited Out]es kept asking for a sign or a miracle to believe and Muhammad kept saying that he is only a warner.

Q. 13: 07

“And the Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide.”

There are many more ayat that tell the same story. People asking miracles and him saying I am just a man, just like you, only a warner. A clear proof that Muhammad never performed any miracles is in this verse where it says that people rejected even other messengers who came with miracles and clear signs, meaning miracles are not helpful.

Q. 3: 184

Then if they reject thee, so were rejected messengers before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.

In the above verses Muhammad is denying any supernatural power. If he could perform the miracles attributed to him in those Ahadith, what is the meaning of these verses?

Here is something for you to ponder from a rebuttal from Suhail Khalid to the above article by Ali Sina (http://www.quransearch.com/suhail_khalid/Miracles.htm)

Despite all the exhortation of the Prophet, the Quraish persisted in asking him for a sign. They insisted that unless some sign are sent down to him from his Lord, they would not believe. The disbelievers used to ask, “Why has Muhammad not been sent with miracles like previous prophets?” The Prophet replied that because miracles had proved inadequate to convince. Prophet Noah (May Allah be pleased with him) sent with signs, and with what effect? Where was the lost tribe of Thamud? They had refused to receive the preaching of the Prophet Salih, unless he showed them a sign and caused the rock to bring forth a living camel. He did what they asked. In scorn they cut the camel’s feet and then daring the prophet to fulfill his threats of judgment, were found dead in their beds the next morning, stricken by the angel of the Lord.

There are some seventeen places in the Quran, in which the Prophet Muhammad is challenged to work a sign, and he answered them all to the same or similar effect as only Allah has the power of working wonders, and has not been believed; there were greater miracles in nature than any which could be wrought outside of it; and the Quran itself was a great, everlasting miracle. The Quran, the Prophet used to assert to the disbelievers, is a book of blessings which is a reminder of what is imprinted on human nature and is free from ever discrepancy and from error and falsehood. It is a book of true guidance and a light to all.

--------------------------------

The Quran says that Isa (as) predicted the descent of 'Ahmad'. That enough, is sifficient for me to believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was prophecied.

If that is the standard of proof for you, this is going to be the last response from my side to your posts.

The Quran poses a challenge to produce a single chapter with rhyme AND meaning in ARABIC. If YOU or anybody can do it, than, I, like you, will become and athiest.

This challenge is ridiculous. I can challenge you to write a simple three word sentence similar to, "I love you" with rhyme and meaning in ENGLISH, and you won't be able to write it; after all it is I who will judge whether you succeeded or not, LOL. There already are websites meeting the challenge of Quran (http://www.suralikeit.com/).

Why waste ours and your own time if you have decided to remain an atheist for the rest of your life and won't accept proofs as proofs?

Where are those proofs? Oh, I forgot, the Quran of course. LOL.

Okay, let us not waste each other's time anymore.

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Okay, let us not waste each other's time anymore.

That's perfectly fine with me. You go your way, and I'll go my way. I won't be surprised to see you unable to face your true Lord - one day - which will be the last day, if you continue to go - your way. But I will persist praying for your guidance - as that's one thing you won't be able to oppose.

It was nice knowing you and chatting with you. ^_^ ^_^

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Edited by Basim Ali

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You go your way, and I'll go my way.

It is not hard to see through this guy's motivation and intentions. He is clearly an avowed enemy of Islam. Each and every one of his posts is intended to foster suspicions and malign our faith.

The Quran's instruction in this matter is clear - leave them wandering in the darkness of their malice and hatred. Let them be consumed by the fire of their own creation.

The best approach will therefore be either to ban him or to let him rant and leave his threads unattended.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Even if there was no God, I would still be doing all of this, because it benefits me.

Giving charity helps those around me

Prayer benefits me, as many studies on the benefits of meditation show

Fasting benefits me and it humbles me

Going to Hajj benefits me, because I get to see the different people from all over the world

Abstaining from alcohol benefits me, for obvious reasons

Everything in Islam benefits us; the fact that we have the Quran from God is icing on the cake

peace

Edited by lotfilms

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So what did Allah wanted us to understand by "seven heavens"?

Are you a Jafari? LOL. To a Sunni, the Sunni sect is the true sect, and similarly to each of the 71 or so sects in Islam, their own sect is the true sect.

The problem with believers is that they accept anything their religious authorities tell them. Do you have ANY evidence for those 124000 prophets? If Islam was the truth, it wouldn't fear anything and wouldn't restrict preaching of other religions in the Islamic countries. If it was the truth, it wouldn't force a Muslim to remain Muslim till death.

Hi Charles, I hope you don't mind my entering into this discussion, I was reluctant to do so on two grounds

a) You are an Atheist and thus have a very different epistemology from I, one which I've never had to think over properly as the existence of God seems so evident to me, yet I shall do my best at attempting such.

B) You've joined us from Dr. Ali Sina's community of Faith Freedom, which is known for it's open bigotry and lack of scholarly discourse.

Never the less, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try to engage in meaningful dialogue with you.

As to your points,

1) You are on Shi'i Chat, so what Sunnis would say is really irrelevant here, you know are engaging with a primarily Shi'ite audience and thus expect us to dialogue as Shi'ites.

2) 124,000 Prophets is merely an article of faith, it isn't a matter of life and death and you are dealing with petty semantics. Even if I could demonstrate the existence of 124,000 Prophets calling to a similar doctrine you would most likely reject it as you are a naturalist not a supernaturalist and need to prove the existence of a deity to yourself first.

3) The problem of believers is a human problem sir and is something which occurs through out every walk of life, I doubt the average child questions the political views of their teachers, nor does the average joe question what scientists tell them through media or books, not much of what we take into our minds is even considered evidential, yet the problem with people like you is you think you are the only people that think outside of the box and question things now and then, rather many of us on this forum are converts or challenge the status quo by questioning that which the community at large believes. Hardly seems like the brainwashed pack of children you try to paint us as. (Argument Strawman).

4) As for the death penalty, it's not applicable in the absense of an infallible guide and hence we have apostates from Shi'i Islam free to roam the world. Secondly your whole argument is baseless it assumes that an all powerful deity who reveals truth couldn't implement a law preventing others to leave it. An all powerful deity could do whatever it wants. You might not consider the law particularly moral, it doesn't invalidate the truth claim of the religion behind it on the other hand. As we cannot determine truth from using secular morality.

No scientist or science book threatens you with death or hell if you ridicule his/its theories. You want to argue against evolution? Well, you are welcome to. You wouldn't be punished for not believing in evolution. At the most people may call you a fool and ignorant.

...Thanks for that, not particularly relevant though.

And Islam IS getting exposed all over the world, now that the facility of writing anonymously has become possible for people.

Risking life by one or a billion men constitutes of no evidence.

Ok... If you say so. Is that how you justify wasting your time on a forum ridiculing the people on the other end?

The first miracle is being performed on probably a daily basis by people who are cornered by attackers, LOL.

The second (spider's net) is also not a miracle which keeps happening every night in front of the gate of my garden. The pigeon's eggs are not more than a simple coincidence.

The third one has been debunked so many times, that I do not even feel like bringing here something to debunk that miracle again. However, I will debunk your claims through Quran itself. Here is what Ali Sina wrote on the miracles of Muhammad: (http://www.islam-watch.org/AliSina/MuhammadMiracles.htm)

Yes because the academic world takes Ali Sina very seriously, remind me which credible University or publishing press printed his latest book?

Oh wait, it was through a glorified self-publishing firm, very scholarly :)

Here is something for you to ponder from a rebuttal from Suhail Khalid to the above article by Ali Sina (http://www.quransearch.com/suhail_khalid/Miracles.htm)

--------------------------------

If that is the standard of proof for you, this is going to be the last response from my side to your posts.

Thank you for producing one of Ali Sina's edited exchanges, I know he is known for doing that. Secondly assuming it is unedited, you have the audacity to claim it's our response, as if we posted it as a credible response. No Sir, you did that. This is known as a Straw Man, misrepresenting your opponents to dumb them down, then attacking the easily dismissed misrepresentation.

This challenge is ridiculous. I can challenge you to write a simple three word sentence similar to, "I love you" with rhyme and meaning in ENGLISH, and you won't be able to write it; after all it is I who will judge whether you succeeded or not, LOL. There already are websites meeting the challenge of Quran (http://www.suralikeit.com/).

Almost as ridiculous as the whole Muhammad produced the Qur'an through "Temporal Lobe Epilepsy" argument that Dr. Sina is a known proponent of.

As for Sura Like it. Name me one credible academic peer review that shows that the Surahs on there have been graded to fall under the same literary genre as the Qur'an, then I might start taking it seriously. It's clearly saj'

Where are those proofs? Oh, I forgot, the Quran of course. LOL.

Okay, let us not waste each other's time anymore.

Good idea, crawl back to faith freedom or find another forum of Muslims to waste your time by asking controversial questions to make yourself feel so much more intelligent and free on =D

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Islam is getting exposed all over the world

The scriptures of all religions have declared that every prophet faced rejection and ridicule.

Means nothing. Truth shall finally prevail.

now that the facility of writing anonymously has become possible for people.

What cowards !

At least the Kafirs in the time of the Prophet were brave enough to declare their defiance openly, not in the deceptive cover of anonymity.

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1. I researched that thoroughly. Logically there must be a god. (based on Logic only) my logical conclusion if there was not God, nothing would have existed. The hypothesis of God is essential to explain existence.

and btw. god is no where, he is not in Place. not everywhere. God is beyond time and space.

2. My logical experiment (or thought experiment à la Shroedinger :) ) leads to "GOD" must not be an object, not associated with time nor space. That is why i rule most common sunni (especially wahabi) believes that GOD has Hands or Legs or exist in a definite place. or a go that looks like human, Such God does not exist.

Salaams and Ramdhan mubarak,

This was how I came to be a follower of the Ahl al-Bayt(as) too alhamdulillah. :)

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Guest lionking

1. I researched that thoroughly. Logically there must be a god. (based on Logic only) my logical conclusion if there was not God, nothing would have existed. The hypothesis of God is essential to explain existence.

and btw. god is no where, he is not in Place. not everywhere. God is beyond time and space.

2. My logical experiment (or thought experiment à la Shroedinger :) ) leads to "GOD" must not be an object, not associated with time nor space. That is why i rule most common sunni (especially wahabi) believes that GOD has Hands or Legs or exist in a definite place. or a go that looks like human, Such God does not exist.

I researched that thoroughly

And very superficially

Logically there must be a god.

or gods (and godesses)

my logical conclusion if there was not God,nothing would have existed. The hypothesis of God is essential to explain existence.

You changed from "god" to "God" in midstream :( How logical is that ?

At least you admit God is a hypothesis.

A better hypothesis would be existence exists by itself.

and btw. god is no where, he is not in Place. not everywhere.

and btw. you changed to "god" again!! Is "Place" same as as "place" ?

what does "not everywhere" mean in this context?

God is beyond time and space.

He is also beyond commonsense.... like every other fantasy.

2. My logical experiment (or thought experiment à la Shroedinger :) ) leads to "GOD" must not be an object, not associated with time nor space. That is why i rule most common sunni (especially wahabi) believes that GOD has Hands or Legs or exist in a definite place. or a go that looks like human, Such God does not exist.

Logical thinking does not seem to be your strong point. Leave Schrodinger alone untill you learn to spell his name correctly. He might let loose his cat on you.:)

Regards.

Salaams and Ramdhan mubarak,

This was how I came to be a follower of the Ahl al-Bayt(as) too alhamdulillah. :)

Salam and Ram-Dhan Mubarak :)

Wrong reason , wrong choice :)

Regards.

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People listen, this zindeeq just came here to pick a fight, not to debate seriously. I don't even know why you are listening to an ignorant mulhid. Someone close this thread as it is now a playground for this mulhid.

This zindeeq raises questions which create doubts in the minds of pious believers. He shakes their faith, and is spreading, what do you call it, fitna? LOL. Ban him pronto. Don't let the believers be exposed to worldviews other than what Islam teaches. As long as they keep away from such basic and probing questions, their faith would remain intact and strong.

I too recommend banning Charleslemartel immediately.

1. It is not hard to see through this guy's motivation and intentions. He is clearly an avowed enemy of Islam. Each and every one of his posts is intended to foster suspicions and malign our faith. The Quran's instruction in this matter is clear - leave them wandering in the darkness of their malice and hatred. Let them be consumed by the fire of their own creation. The best approach will therefore be either to ban him or to let him rant and leave his threads unattended.

2. What cowards !

At least the Kafirs in the time of the Prophet were brave enough to declare their defiance openly, not in the deceptive cover of anonymity.

1. The better option would be to ban me. My posts and threads will continue to rankle and hurt otherwise :)

2. They learned their lessons well it seems, LOL.

Good idea, crawl back to faith freedom or find another forum of Muslims to waste your time by asking controversial questions to make yourself feel so much more intelligent and free on =D

Do you post there with the nick "YahyaSnow"? Which other Muslim forum do you advise me to join, some Sunni forum? LOL. The life at Islamic forums is so cosy and warm until some one comes along and starts asking controversial (difficult) questions, no?

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This zindeeq raises questions which create doubts in the minds of pious believers. He shakes their faith, and is spreading, what do you call it, fitna? LOL. Ban him pronto. Don't let the believers be exposed to worldviews other than what Islam teaches. As long as they keep away from such basic and probing questions, their faith would remain intact and strong.

I too recommend banning Charleslemartel immediately.

1. The better option would be to ban me. My posts and threads will continue to rankle and hurt otherwise :)

2. They learned their lessons well it seems, LOL.

Do you post there with the nick "YahyaSnow"? Which other Muslim forum do you advise me to join, some Sunni forum? LOL. The life at Islamic forums is so cosy and warm until some one comes along and starts asking controversial (difficult) questions, no?

No YahyaSnow is a Sunni I believe, he's new on the scene.

I started viewing Faithfreedom before you probably even joined the whole caravan of let's feel good by picking on Muslims.

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Hello culturei, Sorry to have ignored your post. But that was because you only made assertions, and did not put forward any argument.

View Postculturei, on 22 August 2009 - 05:15 PM, said:

1. I researched that thoroughly. Logically there must be a god. (based on Logic only) my logical conclusion if there was not God, nothing would have existed. The hypothesis of God is essential to explain existence.

and btw. god is no where, he is not in Place. not everywhere. God is beyond time and space.

Please show me the logic.

ah, at least, i have been noticed :)

the logic is long... but we can start with very simple question

How things came to exist?

Please tell me about your thought experiment.

we are starting... try to answer the first question

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ah, at least, i have been noticed :)

the logic is long... but we can start with very simple question

How things came to exist?

If you wish I can play the game starting from asking you to name a thing you want to ask about. If that thing is a man made thing, I will say man created it. If that thing is natural and alive, I will say evolution (natural selection) did it. And if you name an inanimate thing, I will say I do not know.

To cut the long "logic" short, if you are going to tell me that the universe HAS to be created by someone, and that someone is God, I will then ask you who created God. You will say God is the first cause or the uncaused cause, and eternal, I will tell you that the universe is uncaused and eternal, and you have no evidence that God exists, while we don't need any evidence for the existence of the universe.

I have evidence for an eternal universe because the laws of conservation state that Matter/Energy cannot be created nor destroyed; they can merely be converted to each other as per the formula given by Einstein. So, if matter/energy is eternal, the universe has to be eternal, so there is no need for any creator God.

To disprove my argument, you will have to prove these laws of conservation wrong.

Good luck.

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If you wish I can play the game starting from asking you to name a thing you want to ask about. If that thing is a man made thing, I will say man created it. If that thing is natural and alive, I will say evolution (natural selection) did it. And if you name an inanimate thing, I will say I do not know.

To cut the long "logic" short, if you are going to tell me that the universe HAS to be created by someone, and that someone is God, I will then ask you who created God. You will say God is the first cause or the uncaused cause, and eternal, I will tell you that the universe is uncaused and eternal, and you have no evidence that God exists, while we don't need any evidence for the existence of the universe.

I have evidence for an eternal universe because the laws of conservation state that Matter/Energy cannot be created nor destroyed; they can merely be converted to each other as per the formula given by Einstein. So, if matter/energy is eternal, the universe has to be eternal, so there is no need for any creator God.

To disprove my argument, you will have to prove these laws of conservation wrong.

Good luck.

Who said the laws must be prooved wrong to proove that God exists?

Ask yourself where did everything begin? This energi that never disappears, who created it from the beginning?

Do you believe that a big bang, can lead to a creation, whether its the earth or the human ,this structured into the smallest detail, working perfectly with its surroundings?

Normally an explosion means chaos. A greater force making sure everything works right makes more sense.

If you believe that somehow everything was created by itself then go ahead and do so.

But that doesnt make sense

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Who said the laws must be prooved wrong to proove that God exists?

Ask yourself where did everything begin? This energi that never disappears, who created it from the beginning?

Do you believe that a big bang, can lead to a creation, whether its the earth or the human ,this structured into the smallest detail, working perfectly with its surroundings?

Normally an explosion means chaos. A greater force making sure everything works right makes more sense.

If you believe that somehow everything was created by itself then go ahead and do so.

But that doesnt make sense

Hello Sayyyed, you missed my point. I said that matter or energy did not ever begin nor it can be destroyed; that is exactly what the laws of conservation state. If matter or energy cannot be created, where is the scope of any creator? If God can be "uncreated", why can't the universe itself be uncreated?

Think over it. Some one on this forum was complaining that I was always on the offensive asking questions, and I offered him a chance to be on the offensive and start asking questions to me. He backed out. I make you the same offer; ask me as many questions as you can think of. I wouldn't hide behind "GOD" for any question I do not know the answer of.

The universe never BEGAN; it was there all the time for eternity (search and read about "eternal universe" on the internet). And no, everything is still NOT working PERFECTLY. I can tell you about numerous things which are NOT working perfectly.

Please, please search "God of the gaps" on google and read one or two articles about this phrase. When you wish to argue with an atheist or agnostic, it helps to learn about their arguments beforehand.

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One question, if you may. Why are atheists so against other religions? Shouldn't they make the most of their short lives by doing other things, not debating about something that doesn't exist.

Of course!

Atheists are against the religions because people of each of the religions think that their religion is the truest of all, and commit many atrocities in the name of religion. They do it because of their false belief that their religion is true. Unfortunately none of them question and critically examine their faith, and as a result humanity suffers a lot and unnecessarily.

Otherwise, no atheist worth his salt would bother if you believe in a monkey God, an elephant God, or an unimaginable God.

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If God can be "uncreated", why can't the universe itself be uncreated?

Your English is beyond me. What do you mean "uncreated" ? Our belief system holds that God has always existed and will always exist. In fact, the word "always" is not quite appropriate to His existence because He created time.

I wouldn't hide behind "GOD" for any question I do not know the answer of.

There is no question of hiding behind God. Either He exists or He doesn't. If He does, then my belief is correct. If He doesn't then I am wrong. But it should not bother anyone else either way. I am not bothered by what others believe in.

The universe never BEGAN

Even science cannot vouch for that statement. It is merely an assertion.

Please search "God of the gaps" on google

I have and I found the articles devoid of substance.

When you wish to argue with an atheist or agnostic

We don't. You are the one who came over to "discuss" with us. The parameters for a productive discourse simply do not exist. It is a futile exercise.

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adding on to the question... since my rough estimate that around 3.5 billion of 6 billion ppl in world believe in after life and we work towards attaining a good end (or a beginning)..and only about 1 billion completely deny the afterlife... so keeping that in mind...whats the reason that atheists try to do good? there are no moral or ethics in atheism.. it pretty much focuses on being selfish (every man for their life).. what makes you not put a bullet in your head right now? since according to you humans are living without any cause, working towards no goal and life can never be eternal.. so pretty much all we do is pointless..so why not the 1 billion atheists end their misery...

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If you wish I can play the game starting from asking you to name a thing you want to ask about. If that thing is a man made thing, I will say man created it. If that thing is natural and alive, I will say evolution (natural selection) did it. And if you name an inanimate thing, I will say I do not know.

To cut the long "logic" short, if you are going to tell me that the universe HAS to be created by someone, and that someone is God, I will then ask you who created God. You will say God is the first cause or the uncaused cause, and eternal, I will tell you that the universe is uncaused and eternal, and you have no evidence that God exists, while we don't need any evidence for the existence of the universe.

I have evidence for an eternal universe because the laws of conservation state that Matter/Energy cannot be created nor destroyed; they can merely be converted to each other as per the formula given by Einstein. So, if matter/energy is eternal, the universe has to be eternal, so there is no need for any creator God.

To disprove my argument, you will have to prove these laws of conservation wrong.

Good luck.

totally wrong!

i did not ask about creation. i asked about existence. no.. i ask about not a specific thing... but about all things that exist, including universe. Universe needs matter, needs particles, need gravitation... and as far as science knows, there was BIG BANG.

How big bang happened... there is a singularity... what is singularity?

i will let you answer

btw Charles,

i already read many of Dawkins books, including the blind watchmaker. and the notion of God of gaps is not alien to me... i know what i am talking about... Dawkins failed miserably in dismissing the argument of eternal cause

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I have evidence for an eternal universe because the laws of conservation state that Matter/Energy cannot be created nor destroyed; they can merely be converted to each other as per the formula given by Einstein. So, if matter/energy is eternal, the universe has to be eternal, so there is no need for any creator God.

That is contrary to science as we know it today. The laws of science are believed to break down at a certain point in the past.

So to say that matter/energy is eternal is clearly a flawed assumption. The conclusion you have drawn from that assumption - that there is no need for a Creator God - is therefore also false.

Besides, even if we were to accept your assertion that matter/energy is eternal, to disprove the existence of God, you will have to prove that they are mutually exclusive, for which there is no evidence whatsoever nor have you provided any.

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