What I have learned from the Quran

[placid]

The Quran has been an interesting study and I want to present some of what I have learned along the way. Comments, questions, and criticisms are welcome in our quest to learn more. --- We are only on the stormy sea of life for a short time compared to eternity. If we don't have the right compass for the final voyage, we will find no safe harbour.

"He who won't answer to the rudder must answer to the rocks. Take your choice, but the rudder is kinder than the rocks." - Estelle Carver.

I will number the subjects for easy referral.

1) SIMILARITIES

It has been said: ‘The best way to learn about Islam is to read the Quran.’ --- Naturally, as I began this new adventure I was looking for similarities and familiar stories, and was pleased to find them from both the Old and New Testaments.

From the time I started reading the Quran I was excited because I found that what was revealed to Muhammad affirmed what had been written before.

Surah 4:136. ‘O ye who believe! Believe in GOD and HIS Messenger and in the Book which HE has revealed to HIS Messenger, and the Book which HE revealed before it. And whoso disbelieves in GOD and HIS angels, and HIS Books and HIS Messengers and the Last Day, has surely strayed far away.’

Surah 3:3-4 perked my interest as I read: ‘He hath revealed unto thee, Muhammad, the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was revealed before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel, aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion of right and wrong. Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of God, theirs will be a heavy doom.’

The interesting link between the NT and the Quran is the angel messenger that appeared to Muhammad. --- It was Gabriel, who, some 600 years earlier had appeared to both Zechariah and Mary to announce that she, and Zechariah’s wife, Elizabeth, would each have a son. These same announcements are included in the Quran so this confirms that Gabriel was truly God’s messenger for that age, as well as the link with the Gospel.

There are some other links to Christianity because (according to Mr Pickthall’s translation) following the appearance of Gabriel, Muhammad’s wife, Khadijah, ‘On their return to Mecca took him to her cousin, Waraqa ibn Naufal, a very old man, “who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,” who declared his belief that the heavenly messenger who came to Moses of old had come to Muhammad, and that he was chosen as the Prophet of his people.’

This proved true, did it not? --- Now this cousin was knowledgeable in the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians, so he was likely a Christian. If he had been a Jew he would not likely have been knowledgeable in the NT, in fact he may have had the Torah or OT only. Nevertheless, the Jewish leaders seemed to have some indication that God was going to send a messenger at some point to the Arabs.

Another thing that is interesting is this: ‘The early biographers tell how his wife Khadijah “tried the spirit” which came to him and proved it to be good.’

This is the kind of test that a Christian uses. In 1 John 4 it says, ‘Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.’ If Khadijah herself knew the Scriptures and had the NT with her, she may very well have used this test, and with positive results.

Another connection is that after four years, when the new Muslim converts were severely persecuted by the idolaters in Mecca, that Muhammad, ‘advised all who could possibly contrive to do so to emigrate to a Christian country, Abyssinia, --- where they would not be subject to persecution for their worship of One God.’ (The Muslims lived in Abyssinia for some 16 years, at which time they moved to Al Madinah to join the growing Muslim community there).

The group was led by Muhammad’s cousin Ja’far ibn Abi Talib who gave an account before the Negus (king) of Abyssinia of their reason for coming, and a testimonial of what they believed. He recited perhaps the first 36 verses of Surah 19, which interestingly enough relates to the angel Gabriel’s appearance first to Zechariah, and the birth of John the Baptist, then Gabriel’s visit to Mary, and the birth of Jesus. --- Also he included that ‘God had given Jesus the Scripture and appointed Him a Prophet,’ --- which was really a testimony of the beginning of the Gospel --- which had happened some 600 years earlier.

Placid

[PeaceLoving]

Good points.

Also, the ethical and moral injunctions are very similar.

[placid]

Thanks Peaceloving,

If we see beyond the differences, we see the similarities.

What Gabriel revealed to Muhammad did not change the former Scriptures, but confirmed them. It is therefore both reasonable and logical to believe that what the angel revealed would restore the 'true religion' to that of Abraham, and include all that happened in between, is it not?

2) THE SCRIPTURES, UPDATED TO AD 625

The reason I am interested in the angel Gabriel is because he came to bring the truth to Muhammad. --- Therefore when Surah 3:3 was given, which I have quoted from above, saying: ‘He hath revealed unto thee, Muhammad, the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was revealed before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.’ --- He, Gabriel, would know the truth, would he not?

Surah 3 was given about AD 625 so the ‘truth’ that Gabriel brought would be updated to then, would it not?

We generally agree that the NT books were written basically in the first century. The common writing paper was Papyrus, which was not very durable, and through use and age, the copies didn’t last long. --- They were continually being copied and distributed and thousands of fragments have been found, --- BUT THAT IS NOT IMPORTANT.

A copy of most of the books was compiled as early as AD 140, and all were there in the second half of the century, according to my Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary. Then later, (quote): ‘We find the 27 documents which make up our NT today listed by Athanasius of Alexandria in AD 367, and not long after by Jerome and Augustine in the west.’ (End of quote). The 27 books of the NT were confirmed by the Church councils of both east and west about AD 393. --- BUT THAT IS NOT SO IMPORTANT.

The NT was translated to Latin about AD 150, and later, --- (Quote from BD): ‘The Latin Vulgate was produced by the scholarly Jerome. He translated from the original Hebrew and Greek. He was commissioned in AD 382 by Pope Damasus to make an official revision of the Old Latin Bible. His work was completed in AD 405.’ (End of quote).

Latin was a common language for many Jews and was kind of adopted by the Christians. If you remember, Luke recorded that the inscription on the cross was written in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, Luke 23:38. The Latin Vulgate was used for over 1000 years until the Douay Version, translated from the Vulgate, became ‘the Authorized Roman Catholic Bible’ in English. --- THIS IS IMPORTANT.

I have a copy of the Douay Version and it is quite comparable to the authorized King James Version. Both are written in the Old English language. The Latin Vulgate would have been used in AD 625 by Christians and others, so, --- THIS IS IMPORTANT.

In addition to the Greek and Hebrew NT, there were other translations at the time, (quote from BD): ‘The Coptic versions were made for Christians in the second or third century. The Ethiopic version was made in the fourth or fifth century. The Gothic version was prepared by Ulfilas about AD 350. The Armenian Version, beautiful and accurate, was made for Christians of eastern Asia Minor about AD 400. Other translations were made in, Georgian, Arabic, Persian, and Slovanic languages.’ (End of quote). --- THIS IS IMPORTANT.

If all of these were available in that time frame, before AD 625, wouldn’t the angel Gabriel know about them and know the languages? If these versions did not all say the same thing, there would have been no end of arguments among the people groups and the theologians of the day. And Gabriel, bringing the truth, would have had to distinguish between one and the other if there were differences, would he not?

I believe that when Gabriel said, ‘the Gospel,’ he was referring to the updated version to AD 625, don’t you? Or do you think he was referring to some lost or oral teaching that was obscure?

If we accept the fact that Gabriel brought the truth to Muhammad, we have to accept that he would naturally be referring to the previous truth in the Book they already had, which would be applicable in AD 625.

How much time and writing could have been saved on our discussion Forum if we had limited our discussions of differences in Scripture to the time since AD 625? --- How many changes have there been since then? --- The answer is, --- basically no changes, --- except for the simple choice of wording in the updated versions to our modern language.

I could apologize for using Mr Pickthall’s translation in the Old English, but I believe it is very accurate and he gives an intro to each Surah as well as valuable history on Islam. For clarity I often check a website that gives 10 English translations of the Quran, plus one in Arabic. It is www.quranbrowser.com.

There is not a lot of criticism of Christians (unless they were unbelievers) mentioned in the Quran, --- nevertheless there is something that happened somewhere in the time between the first Church and AD 625, because the heavenly Voice speaks to it.

Listen to this, --- it is a proof, --- of something that was done against God’s will:

Surah 57:26. ‘We verily sent Noah and Abraham and placed the Prophethood and the Scripture among their seed.’

27. Yusuf Ali: ‘Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles (the Prophets). We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.’

27. Khalifa: ‘Subsequent to them, we sent our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and we gave him the Injeel (Gospel), and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented hermitism which we never decreed for them. All we asked them to do was to uphold the commandments approved by GOD. But they did not uphold the message as they should have. Consequently, we gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.’

Notice: --- ‘But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them,’ or, ‘But they invented hermitism which We never decreed for them.’

‘We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him (Jesus) Compassion and Mercy.’

This is the message of the Gospel and Jesus had said, ‘Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.’ --- But they decided to build Monasteries and stay in one place. Perhaps the most religious would live at these Monasteries and ‘hermitize.’ Their motives may have been pure to start with, that they would give themselves to study, meditation and prayer and become more holy, --- but they were not sharing their holiness with others. Also, the grouping of men together is not natural, and eventually leads to problems.

‘All We asked them to do was uphold the commandments approved by GOD. But they did not uphold the message as they should have.’

Notice: --- Rather than going out and evangelizing they stayed in one place and were religious. --- The end result --- ‘Consequently, We gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.’

You see how it is possible in religion to deviate from God’s will and lose His blessing?

Placid

[yonus]

Hi Placid,

Quote : You see how it is possible in religion to deviate from God's will and lose His blessing?

In Islam we have (faraiidh -plural ) Compulsory or obligatory and ( nawafil - plural ) Optional or supererogatory .

Faraiidh plural of Faridhah like prayer 5 times daily ,fasten Ramadhan ,hajj ,zakat , .......etc.

Nawafil plural of Nafilah like prayer ,fasten , and some worships but no problem if you didn't practice them .

However if you practice them , continue otherwise God may say my servant was coming close to me by (nawafil ) but now I don't see him as before .

Prophet said Allah said (hadith qudsi ) : "My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him.

"When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks.

"Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him."

It was related by al-Bukhari.

Muslims always ask : Where are the (faraiidh ) Compulsory or obligatory in christianity ?

Edited August 18, 2009 by yonus

[placid]

Hi Yonus,

Quote:

Prophet said Allah said (hadith qudsi ) : "My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him.

--- Does the term 'super-erogatory works' meams 'works of good conscience' --- or, good works, resulting from a heart that loves God and delights to follow His instructions and therefore, delights in doing his religious duties?

This is what Jesus taught: that we first love God and learn obedience by doing what He would have us do. Jesus said, "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another." John 13:34-35.

In 14:15. He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Then Jesus said, "If you love Me, you WILL KEEP My commandments." --- (The keeping of the new commandment to love, and to honour God in all things was proof of thier love.)

15:9-10. "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken unto you that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full."

The first three 'fruits' that God generates in the believer heart through His Holy Spirit, are Love, Joy, and, Peace.

If we have these in our heart, we have no need for external rules to guide our lives.

--- In this relationship with God, the 'rules' are written in the heart, so the whole duty of following Jesus' commands, is to: believe in God, submit one's will to Him, follow Jesus as our Savior and example, --- then expend one's self in the service of others as God instructs. --- This often involves, studying the Scriptures as an indiviual as well as collectively as a Church family. Attending regular worship services (but going because you want to be there, not because it is obligatory.) --- and being a good neighbor (love your neighbor as you love yourself).

By contrast, when Jesus was teaching the 'new law of love' He related how the Jews had disregarded the commandments of Moses and brought in their own laws to bypass them.

And He related this prophecy from the OT in Matthew 15:

Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,

And honor Me with their lips,

But their heart is far from Me.

9 And in vain they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

This is why I like us to acknowledge what the Quran says, not what 'man's wisdom' teaches.

Blessings on you, Yonus, as you keep studying.

Placid

[yonus]

Hi Placid,

Quote : By contrast, when Jesus was teaching the 'new law of love' He related how the Jews had disregarded the commandments of Moses and brought in their own laws to bypass them.

Agree but that doesn't mean to leave ( faraiidh ) and practice (nawafil ) . Suppose I stayed all night practice (nawafil ) prayers then I slept for morning prayer which is compulsory or obligatory ,so what is the benifit ? Therefore sleeping and pray the (faridhah ) morning prayer is better than staying all night praying (nawafil ) .

Our friend Daystar said once that if Jesus was not died for our since ,we would go back to law of the OT . So did Jesus tell you to leave the law of the OT and practice (nawafil ) instead of (faraiidh ) ?

[placid]

Hi Yonus,

What Daystar said is right. If God had not sent Jesus to live among men, then to die for the sins of the world, we would still be under the laws of the OT.

Jesus said, "I came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it."

The Ten Commandments were fulfilled in the New Commandment to 'Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself.'

Yes, this meant leaving a lot of the 'man made' rules and following the new teaching of Jesus. --- And when Muhammad came he taught some changes again, but they also fulfilled the Ten Commandments and the Law of Love. There are no new laws in the Quran that abolish the former laws, are there?

I will add the following which may explain better:

3) A LAW FOR EACH

According to Mr Pickthall’s intro: ‘At Yathrib there were Jewish tribes with learned rabbis who had often spoken to the pagans of a Prophet soon to come among the Arabs. --- When the men from Yathrib (who had gone to Mecca) saw Muhammad they recognized him as the Prophet whom the Jewish rabbis had described to them.

They invited Muhammad to Yathrib with his followers as they were being persecuted at Mecca, and the Hijrah took place. The new name, Al Madinah, which simply means “The City,” became world famous.’

To begin with, the Jews were harmonious and Muhammad made solemn pacts of agreement. When they found they could not control Muhammad’s teaching of brotherhood, making all men equal, they took offence. They used different tactics of criticism. Often trying to find fault with his teaching. Some verses from Surah 5 say:

41. ‘--- Of the Jews, listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of others who come not unto thee.

42. If they have recourse unto thee Muhammad, judge between them or disclaim jurisdiction. If thou disclaimest jurisdiction, then they cannot harm thee at all. But if thou judgest, judge between them with equity.

43. How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the TORAH wherein God hath delivered judgment for them?

44. Lo! We did reveal the TORAH wherein is guidance and a light, by which the Prophets who surrendered unto God judged the Jews and the rabbis and the priests, judged by such of God’s Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses.’

Surah 5 was revealed about AD 628 and the Jews would have the TORAH of the day which I assume the angel Gabriel was relating to Muhammad when he said, ‘Why are they coming to you for judgment? They have their own Law. If you do judge them, be sure it is fair. If you defer judgment, then let them judge their own cases from their own Law.’

To me it says that the Jews had their own Law to live by, --- as they still have today.

46. ‘And We caused Jesus, son of Mary to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was revealed before him, and We bestowed on him the GOSPEL wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was revealed before it in the TORAH --- a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off evil.

47. Let the People of the GOSPEL judge by that which God has revealed therein. Whoso jugeth not by that which God hath revealed; such are evil-livers.’

To me it says that the People of the GOSPEL were to live by it and be judged by it. If they had a copy of Jerome’s Latin Vulgate (even with a few discrepancies) they had the GOSPEL, the same text that was translated into English in the Douay Bible and has been updated today by changing the Old English to our current language.

There we have the Law for the Jews still intact, and the Law for the Christians still intact.

48. ‘And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which God hath revealed.’

Let’s examine this part of the verse, ‘We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it.’

Other versions say:

Yusuf Ali: ‘We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.’

Shakir: ‘We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it in the Book, and a guardian over it.’

Sher Ali: ‘We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it.’

Arberry: ‘We sent the Book with truth, confirming the Book that was before it and assuring it.’

Palmer: ‘We have revealed to thee the Book in truth, verifying what was before it, and preserving it.’

Rodwell: ‘We have sent down the Book of the Koran with truth, confirmatory of previous Scriptures, and their safeguard.’

Sale: ‘We have sent down unto thee the book [of the Koran] with truth, confirming that Scripture which was [revealed] before it, and preserving the same [from corruption].’

It seems as though God considers His Scriptures as one Book which He has preserved. The previous Scriptures had been preserved in AD 628, and they are preserved today. The Quran which was not yet fully revealed in AD 628 had been eventually compiled and is preserved today. --- ISN’T THIS IMPORTANT?

I want to finish the verse, 5:48:

‘For EACH We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had God willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as you are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto God you will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.’

It appears that God has appointed for EACH, meaning the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, a ‘divine law’ and ‘a traced-out way.’ However, Jesus, the Messiah is mentioned in each.

Also we are to be ‘Vieing one with another in good works,’ not ‘Vieing’ one against another.

--- Considering the three religions, --- it’s a verse to ponder, --- is it not?

Placid

[PeaceLoving]

this meant leaving a lot of the 'man made' rules and following the new teaching of Jesus

I doubt if the teachings of the Old Testament could be described as man-made. They were delivered by prophets and therefore must have come from God. Many of these teachings are in striking contrast to the teachings of Jesus.

The law of stoning an adultress, for example, was not a man-made law but was ordained by prophets of God and was a common practice with their approval. It has been ordained in the Torah. The same goes for the laws of retaliation - an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth etc.

These were clearly God-made laws. God may have changed His tactic later on. But the OT laws were certainly not man-made.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Brother Placid. Just a quick question it may not be off-topic. When you have so much knowledge about Islam and Christianity and you know Islam is true religion then what have stopped you still from embracing Islam.

[placid]

Hi PeaceLoving,

I had said in Post 7, 'Jesus said, "I came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it."

The Ten Commandments were fulfilled in the New Commandment to 'Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself.'

Yes, this meant leaving a lot of the 'man made' rules and following the new teaching of Jesus. ---

Sorry if I wasn't clear on this. The fulfilling of the law by 'loving God and loving others did' not destroy it, but gave a new perspective. The Ten Commandments are in both the NT and Quran. However, some of the other 613 laws were never meant for Gentiles.

When I mentioned ‘man made rules’ I was thinking of those that the Pharisees had imposed in the time of Jesus,

Like in Luke 6, where the disciples were rubbing some grain out in their hands and eating it on a Sabbath day, and the Pharisees said it was unlawful, or Luke 13 where Jesus healed a woman and they accused Him of breaking the Sabbath. Or the law about the ‘moneychangers.’ --- When people came from other places with foreign money, they had to have it changed into local currency before it was offered in the temple, and the moneychangers would short change them.

However, when you mention the law of ‘retaliation’ --- an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, --- Jesus did upgrade that in the ‘Sermon on the Mount’ in Matthew 5.

38. “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’

39. But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

40. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.

41. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

42. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

In the Quran in mentions this in relationship to the OT law, but where is it prescribed for Muslims?

--- The following is an interesting portion where the Jews were trying to discredit Muhammad and they would ask his judgment but with wrong intent, as in Surah 5:

Yusuf Ali: 42. (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For God loveth those who judge in equity.

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

---(This proves that they had the OT on hand, does it not?)

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them (the Jews): "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

--- (Here it mentions the NT.)

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

--- (This proves that they had the NT on hand, does it not?)

--- (Next it mentions this confirmation to the Muslims, and makes reference to all three religions, does it not?)

48. To thee (Muhammad) We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: --- To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

--- This is an interesting verse:

2:143. Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

If we consider this idea of a ‘middle nation,’ --- let’s look at the following:

42:36. Whatever ye are given (here) is (but) a convenience of this life: but that which is with God is better and more lasting: (it is) for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord:

37. Those who avoid the greater crimes and shameful deeds, and, when they are angry even then forgive;

38.Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance;

39. And those who, when an oppressive wrong is inflicted on them, (are not cowed but) help and defend themselves.

40. The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God: for (God) loveth not those who do wrong.

41. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame.

42. The blame is only against those who oppress men and wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a penalty grievous.

43. But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.

There is a verse that says, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Retaliation ‘in kind’ is permitted if one chooses to avenge himself:

5:45. --- An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth --- (Jewish law).

42:39. --- When an oppressive wrong is inflicted on them, (are not cowed but) help and defend themselves.

42:40. --- The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree):

42:41. --- But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame.

42. --- (Identifies the wicked who go beyond justice and deserve punishment).

Those who choose not to retaliate, but forgive, and leave the judgment to God are honoured. --- (Those who ‘turn the other cheek’).

Notice 42:37. --- when they are angry even then, forgive;

5:45. --- But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.

42:40. --- but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God: for (God) loveth not those who do wrong.

42:43. --- But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.

If one wants to avenge themselves, or 'get even' it sometimes starts a localized war.

--- But in the law of 'checks and balances,' --- if one suffers a wrong, and says, "I forgive you." Usually the other one will say, "I am sorry, will you forgive me?"

--- And because there was a wrong done, and not 'balanced' by retaliation, then God blesses, or forgives 'the one who was wronged' to the degree of the wrong suffered.

Also, God deals with the wrong-doer kindly or harshly, accorging to His perfect justice.

The OT used the legal rule of retaliation, but God's grace and mercy was introduced through the Gospel. --- While the law is still there, God's grace and mercy are there also.

Do you see what I was refering to as a 'middle' nation? --- Both options are open in the Quran. --- 'If you want to settle your own accounts and 'get even,' you can.'

--- 'If you want rather to forgive, then you have God's blessing in doing it.'

I would think that with your name, PeaceLoving, you would favour forgiveness rather than retaliation, would you not?

Placid

[PeaceLoving]

Sorry if I wasn't clear on this.

Hi Placid

I am sorry to bother you again but you have not answered my main concern very clearly.

Is it not true that Christians accept the OT as the word of God ? So what do you say about the stoning of the adulteress and similar harsh laws of the OT ? Do you deny they were God-made ? A simple YES or NO, with an explanation as to WHY, would do.

When you mention the law of ‘retaliation’ --- an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, --- Jesus did upgrade that in the ‘Sermon on the Mount’ in Matthew 5.

I don't deny that Jesus upgraded these laws. My question was whether these laws - the law of retaliation and the law of stoning - formed part of the law of God before the time of Jesus or not.

I would think that with your name, PeaceLoving, you would favour forgiveness rather than retaliation, would you not?

Yes, the Quran permits retaliation but proclaims forgiveness as the preferred option. But my question was about the OT, not the Quran or the NT.

[placid]

Hi Aabiss,

Brother Placid. Just a quick question it may not be off-topic. When you have so much knowledge about Islam and Christianity and you know Islam is true religion then what have stopped you still from embracing Islam.

Thank you for your compliment.

--- 'and you know Islam is true religion'

2:132. The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

2:208. O ye who believe! Come, all of you, into submission (unto Him); and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.

3:19. Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance).

--- Yes, I understand that Islam, meaning 'surrender' is true religion.

Mr Pickthall said in his intro to Surah 2:

'All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct, which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham, to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, is the only true religion, and that that religion consists in the surrender of man's will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation as manifested in His creation and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. Of sincerety in that religion, the one test is conduct, and the standard for that religion is for all alike.' --- End of quote.

--- I am not sure what group I would fit into, as I believe the same as the disciples did, and it says this in Surah 3:

Yusuf Ali: 52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou (God) hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."

I also accept the longer 'statement of faith' of the first Pillar of Islam, which says:

"I believe in God, His angels, His books, His prophets, in the Last Day, and in the Resurrection after death." --- (Taken from 2:177 and other verses).

--- I guess the question is, "Have I embraced Islam, meaning 'surrender'?"

--- I understand that 'Muslim' means 'a surrendered one.'

--- Is there something else you would suggest that I should do to be accepted of God?

Placid

[placid]

Hi Peace,

Is it not true that Christians accept the OT as the word of God ? So what do you say about the stoning of the adulteress and similar harsh laws of the OT ? Do you deny they were God-made ? A simple YES or NO, with an explanation as to WHY, would do.

Yes, Christians accept the OT as the word of God.

The harsh laws were given to the Jewish people because they represented Justice.

--- An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was a just law.

God has two sides to His nature, Love and Justice.

The preferred way for man to respond to God's Love is to 'love Him in return,' but if God's love is spurned, then one places himself in the realm of being justly treated for his rejection of God's love.

In Deuteronomy, one of the great proclamations to the Jews was this in 6:

4. “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

5. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

6. “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.

7. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

--- These were two truths that they were to live by.

That there was One God, and that they were to Love Him above all else.

Those who violated were subject to the penalty of the law.

I want to deal with the stoning of certain offenders later as well as the change in the law about the adultress in the Gospel where Jesus gave this response, "He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone."

God loves and forgives, and because of that, many think today that a loving God will not send any souls to hell. --- The truth is that those who reject God and His Love move into the realm of Justice and hell is the just reward of these offenders.

Placid

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Hi Aabiss,

Thank you for your compliment.

--- 'and you know Islam is true religion'

2:132. The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

2:208. O ye who believe! Come, all of you, into submission (unto Him); and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.

3:19. Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance).

--- Yes, I understand that Islam, meaning 'surrender' is true religion.

Mr Pickthall said in his intro to Surah 2:

'All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct, which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham, to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, is the only true religion, and that that religion consists in the surrender of man's will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation as manifested in His creation and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. Of sincerety in that religion, the one test is conduct, and the standard for that religion is for all alike.' --- End of quote.

--- I am not sure what group I would fit into, as I believe the same as the disciples did, and it says this in Surah 3:

Yusuf Ali: 52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou (God) hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."

I also accept the longer 'statement of faith' of the first Pillar of Islam, which says:

"I believe in God, His angels, His books, His prophets, in the Last Day, and in the Resurrection after death." --- (Taken from 2:177 and other verses).

--- I guess the question is, "Have I embraced Islam, meaning 'surrender'?"

--- I understand that 'Muslim' means 'a surrendered one.'

--- Is there something else you would suggest that I should do to be accepted of God?

Placid

I know that Islam is surrender to God. But with surrendering it means that you must also follow the religious rites and practices of Islam. You have to believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet of Allah. In addition to this you have to practice your prayers etc as per the Islamic principles. Obviously brother i am not saying anything that you do not know. When you embrace Islam then you have to offer prayer (Namaz) in the manner muslims do. I hope you understand my humble point.

[yonus]

Hi Placid ,

Quote : Is there something else you would suggest that I should do to be accepted of God?

This is the horse stable ( this is the point ) .

Here is hadith for the prophet says :

1. The Holy Prophet Muhammad said: "Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me." (Al-Yawaqit wal-Jawahir, p. 24; Fath al-Bayan, vol. 2, p. 246; Tafsir Ibn Kathir, under verse 81 of Al Imran)
2. "Had Jesus been alive he would have had to follow me." (Sharh Fiqh Akbar, Egyptian ed., p. 99)
3. "No. 19: If Moses and Jesus were alive, they would have but followed me." (English text from Al-Islam, published by the Fiji Muslim Youth Organization, vol. 4, Oct. 1974) .

[placid]

Hi Aabiss and Yonus,

I believe that everything related to Al-Islam, meaning, 'the surrender,' should be in the Quran, should it not?

This is an interesting statement:

The Prophet (saw) said, "Do not write down anything from me except the Qor'aan." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Muslim].

Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry reported that the messenger of God (saw) had said, "Do not write anything from me EXCEPT Qor'aan. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Qor'aan shall erase it."

[Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 192]

--- Therefore, anything said apart from the Quran is not authentically from Muhammad, or the Quran, is it?

Surah 42:52 says of Muhammad, "And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.

[IloveImamHussain]

When you have so much knowledge about Islam and Christianity and you know Islam is true religion then what have stopped you still from embracing Islam.

The Holy Prophet Muhammad said: "Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me." (Al-Yawaqit wal-Jawahir, p. 24; Fath al-Bayan, vol. 2, p. 246; Tafsir Ibn Kathir, under verse 81 of Al Imran) "Had Jesus been alive he would have had to follow me." (Sharh Fiqh Akbar, Egyptian ed., p. 99) No. 19: If Moses and Jesus were alive, they would have but followed me." (English text from Al-Islam, published by the Fiji Muslim Youth Organization, vol. 4, Oct. 1974

Muslims should be grateful that there are non-Muslims like our friend Placid who, instead of constantly vilifying Islam as many non-Muslims do, are prepared to see Islam in a positive light.

The rules of engagement in the world of inter-faith dialogue require that we should not bug him unnecessarily. Everyone should make their choices without coercion or pressure. Expressions of surprise why he has not converted to Islam will only sour the beautiful tempo of this thread.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Ok brother placid you continue. I do not want to break the tempo of this thread as one brother advised. Keep going :)

[yonus]

Pece Salam Aleik ,

Execuse me to say that you don't understand Placid !

He believes that the three abrahamic religions are word of God .

He studied islam and he found it same as OT and NT .

Christians sometimes call us christians but not on the straight path because we don't believe in divinity of Jesus , his death for our sins and his resurrection after three days .

So how you want him convert islam since God gave him the best bounty ( salvation through Jesus ) ?

What Placid wish is that we muslims believe in Jesus as the only savior ,he died for our sins and raised again after three days and be a muslim if you like .

It is good to believe that all books Torat ,injeel and quran are word of God ,but it is bad to because the truth would be lost . I mean if Torat spoke about the lord christ who is going to remove sin of the world and Nt spoke about Jesus who was crusified and died for our sins ,so Quran must teach this too . Therefor the truth is lost .

Edited August 24, 2009 by yonus

[PeaceLoving]

Ok brother placid you continue.

Brother Aabiss_Shakari

Just because someone has great respect for Islam, does not mean they are willing to give up their old religion.

Have you heard of Husaini Brahmins ? They love our Imams dearly, they wear black clothes in Muharram, yet they remain Hindus.

Apart from Husaini Brahmins, there are some Hindus and Sikhs who have great love for our Imams but with all that love, they still wish to stay on the religion of their birth. I will give you a few examples.

I do not know if you know Urdu, but here is a poem from a Hindu lady, Devi Roop Kumari, showing her deep love for our Imams :-

"Nisar-e-Murtaza hoon Panjtan say Piyar karti hoon

Khizaan jis par na aya us chaman say piyar karti hoon

Aqeeda mazhab-e-Insaniyat maeyn kab zuroori hai

Maeyn Boot Parast hoon; Boot Shikan say piyar karti hoon".

Translation :

"I love Ali (Murtaza) and I love the Panjtan (family of the Prophet)

I love the garden which does not see the fall (autumn)

When is belief so necessary in the religion of man

I am a worshipper of idols, yet I love the destroyer of idols (referring to Imam Ali)".

There is another beautiful poem about Imam Hussain by another Hindu poet, by the name of Jai Singh. I do not remember the complete poem but one verse goes like this :

"Maeyn Hindu hoon magar hoon maeyn shaida Hussain ka."

Translation :

"I am a Hindu but I am madly in love with Imam Hussain".

And this couplet comes from the famous Sikh poet, the late Sant Mohinder Singh Bedi :

"Faraz-e-Daar pa Meesam bayan daytay haeyn

Rahay Ga Naam-e-Ali Hum zaban Daytay Haeyn."

Translation :

"Meesam declared on the stakes, saying

I give my word that Ali's name will remain for ever".

Last example :- In his book, "The Voice of human justice", the Christian writer George Jordach wrote of Imam Ali as follows :-

"All the wealth and treasures of the world cannot equal the strap of Imam Ali's shoes". But despite such great regard for Imam Ali, Jordach remained a Christian till the very end.

In short, it is not necessary that one should think of changing their religion just because one has love regard for Islam, our Prophet or Imams.

[yonus]

Quote : n short, it is not necessary that one should think of changing their religion just because one has love regard for Islam, our Prophet or Imams.

This is insult for a man like placid who is ready to pay most pracious things for the truth and salvation .

Why don't you listen well boy !

Edited August 24, 2009 by yonus

[PeaceLoving]

Why don't you listen well, boy !

How dare you speak to me disrespectfully? It is extremely rude to address anyone in this manner.

And how dare you try and intimidate me with your imperious style. I am here to discuss, not to listen to anybody. You had better understand that well.

This is insult for a man like placid

Stay calm. I said nothing offensive. Placid can speak for himself. It is none of your business.

And Placid, do kindly tell me if I said anything offensive.

[placid]

No, there was no insult, or offensive statement.

--- On the contrary, I am quite elated to see that you frankly discuss what I believe and have respect, the same way that I respect the Quran and the true meaning of Islam.

Thank you, ILove for your reference to 'the beautiful tempo of this thread.'

Yes, let's keep it that way. --- I like fair exchange among yourselves as well as your responses to me. We don't have to 'score points,' but only present the truth.

What I was saying (in a few words) was that since Jesus is called the Messiah in the Quran, and His disciples who believed in God and followed Jesus, were called Muslims, 'surrendered ones,' --- then I am in that category, am I not?

So thanks, and in our good exchange, let's keep it 'PeaceLoving' and 'Placid.'

Peace,

I want to respond to Post 11 where you said:

--- I don't deny that Jesus upgraded these laws. My question was whether these laws - the law of retaliation and the law of stoning - formed part of the law of God before the time of Jesus or not. --- End of quote.

--- God chose the Jewish nation as His people and favoured them, but was also very harsh with them when they sinned.

He wanted a people that would be pure and that would honour Him as their Father and He would treat them as a beloved son. They would be an example to otherr nations.

They were to be the means by which other nations would come to faith in God.

The Ten Commandments given through Moses were a standard set of rules for all time, were they not? --- But many of the laws for the Jews were for their own protection and preservation.

How do you like this verse in Deut?

14:21 “You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the stranger who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the LORD your God.

--- Also, the Jews were not to eat pork, but there was no restriction on the Gentiles.

And some of the harsh laws that were used to keep the nation pure and holy before the Lord, were both to 'cleanse out the wicked ones' and to be a warning to others.

(However, they were not imposed on the Gentile nations, or on us today).

Lev 20:10. ‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

11. The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

12. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death. They have committed perversion. Their blood shall be upon them.

Deut 21: 18. “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them,

19. then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city.

20. And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’

21. Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

Joshua 7: (Achan had stolen some silver, a garment, and a wedge of gold)

24. Then Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, the silver, the garment, the wedge of gold, his sons, his daughters, his oxen, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and all that he had, and they brought them to the Valley of Achor.

25. And Joshua said, “Why have you troubled us? The LORD will trouble you this day.” So all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones.

These examples seem extreme, but they were God's judgment on the offenders. However, the nation Israel failed to fulfill God's purpose in being an example to other nation of God's goodness. --- And rather than being 'a means to an end' they became arrogant and considered themselves 'an end in themselves.'

--- 'The Law was given through Moses,' and these special judgments were part of the law for the Jews, but when Jesus came with the New Testament, or New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13), 'He came with Grace and Truth,' John 1:17.

Now the incident in John 8:

3. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst,

4. they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act.

5. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?”

6. This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

7. So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

8. And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”

11. She said, “No one, Lord.”

And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

--- They were constantly trying to trap Jesus in violating the laws of Moses. --- They related this back to Lev 20:10, but it was perhaps a setup by the scribes and Pharisees, because the law said, 'both the adulterer and the adulteress should be put to death'.

--- How come they didn't bring the man as well.

Jesus may have written out their whole plot on the ground which convicted them of their sin.

--- Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." --- However, if she continued in sin, she was guilty of her sin.

Placid

[yonus]

Sorry Peaceloving ,

Stay calm. I said nothing offensive. Placid can speak for himself. It is none of your business.

5:82] Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

5:83] When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messengers, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses.

5:84] How should we not believe in Allah and that which hath come unto us of the Truth. And (how should we not) hope that our Lord will bring us in along with righteous folk?

See how they sacrifice their old religion and maybe their people to enter the new faith which is the truth according to their belief . However we see the jews and idolaters because of their enemity and they are proud , they don't care about truth and what God prepare for them in Jannah .

Actually it is insult or offensive especially when man is free and lives in democratic country ,so what makes him not believe when he see the truth ?

I myself if I see the truth in christianity I would convert secretly .

[placid]

Hi Yonus,

Thank you for your confidence.

5:83] When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messenger(s), thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses.

(The other translations say, 'messenger,' or 'apostle' (singular), meaning Muhammad).

--- 'because of their recognition of the Truth.'

That is it. --- When I recognized the truth revealed in the messages given to Muhammad I too got excited. Not so much 'brought to tears,' but more 'overjoyed' at seeing the restating of Faith in One God, and yielding our lives to Him.

This is also the message of the Gospel, so it was 'confirmation' that God was revealing His word to and through Muhammad.

The message of the Gospel is Faith in a loving God through a relationship with Jesus Christ. --- Remember, Jesus said, "Follow Me."

--- I won't continue on this theme (lest I be accused of 'preaching'), but I would like to add this:

The - Christian Workers’ Service Bureau - put out a statement some years ago which gives this Evangelical position. It was called a:

“Declaration of Dependence Upon Christ.”

Whereas we hold these truths to be self evident …

* that all men, according to God’s word, are sinners.

* that the wages of sin is death – eternal separation from God.

* that no man is able to save himself, not by his character, his good works, his religious resolves, or by any other means.

* that Jesus Christ is the only Savior for lost mankind.

* that He died to redeem us and pay the penalty for our sin that we might go free.

* and that by simply believing on His name and accepting Him as our personal Savior we have eternal life.

… We do hereby affirm our signature to this declaration to make known our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord and to acknowledge our complete dependence upon Him and Him alone.

Signed by

Millions upon millions now living and dead.

(My comment) --- Because these truths are so well known there was no need to add the Scripture references. --- This is where we as Christians have the right to believe what is plainly written in the Gospel, --- that God sent Jesus into the world to live among men, to show them how to live one with another, then to become an Atonement for the sin of mankind. --- Part of the reason that Christians come humbly before God in prayer is because of the debt we owe to Him for forgiving us and giving us the promise of eternal life. --- Check the word, - atonement, - it can be understood as being ‘at-one-ment,’ or ‘at one with God,’ or ‘brought back into harmony with God.’

By the same token, Muslims have the right to reject this ‘statement of faith’ and believe what they have been taught.

Would it be helpful, for comparison, if you want to present a 'statement of faith' taken from the Quran, that would equally express the Muslim relationship to God?

--- However, the Christian commitment will not go away, or be buried by statements of ‘corruption’ of Scripture. --- Most of the NT could be taken away and as long as these two verses remain, the message is there:

‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.’

I know the objections to the word ‘Son,’ --- But I ask you, “If He wasn’t God’s Son, whose son was he?”

--- (Again the 'commentators' over-reacted on this 'Father-Son' relationship and didn't recognize that Jesus was a 'willing Servant' to His Father, --- as an example of what we all should be in relationship to our Heavenly Father).

While you have invited me to Islam, I will not necessarily invite you to change your faith and become Christians, I just say, ‘become Spiritual Muslims,’ --- meaning ‘surrendered ones,’ to a loving God.

Placid

[placid]

I would like to continue with this, as the testimony of John the Baptist and Jesus was given to the King of Abyssinia when the first Muslims moved there from Mecca for safety.

This then, was a very early Surah which was the beginning of the New Covenant.

--- (And more of what I learned from the Quran).

4) JOHN THE BAPTIST, A MESSENGER

The Gospel really starts with the wife of Imran who dedicated her unborn child to her Lord:

Surah 3:35. ‘Remember when the wife of Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is within me as a consecrated offering. Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Hearer, the Knower!

36. And when she was delivered she said: O Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female. --- God knew best of what she was delivered. --- And lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.

37. And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth: and made Zechariah her guardian. Whenever Zechariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found that she had food. He said: O Mary! Whence cometh this food? She answered: It is from God. God giveth without stint to whom He will.’

While Zechariah, the priest, was guardian of Mary, he also prayed for a child of his own:

38. ‘Then Zechariah prayed unto his Lord and said: My Lord! Bestow upon me of Thy bounty goodly offspring. Lo! Thou art the Hearer of Prayer.

39. And the angel called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: God giveth thee glad tidings of a son whose name is John, who cometh to confirm a word from God, lordly, chaste, a Prophet of the righteous.’

This is recorded also in Surah 19 where it says:

2. ‘A mention of the mercy of Thy Lord unto His servant Zechariah.

3. When he cried unto His Lord a cry in secret,

4. Saying: My Lord! Lo! The bones of me wax feeble and my head is shining with grey hair, and I have never been unblest in prayer to Thee, my Lord,

5. Lo! I fear my kinfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor,

6. Who shall inherit of me and inherit also of the house of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, acceptable unto Thee.

7. It was said unto him: O Zechariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; We have given the same name to none before him.’

The same was recorded in Luke, also identifying the time in history:

Luke 1:5. ‘There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron and her name was Elizabeth.

6. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7. But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.

8. So it was, that while he was serving as priest before God in the order of his division,

9. According to the custom of the priesthood, his lot fell to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

10. And the whole multitude of the people was praying outside at the hour of incense.

11. Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12. And when Zechariah saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13. But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid Zechariah, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.

14. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.

15. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.”

Zechariah doubted the words of the angel:

Surah 3:40. ‘He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when age hath overtaken me already and my wife is barren? The angel answered: So it will be. God doth what He will.

41. He said: My Lord! Appoint a token for me. The angel said: The token unto thee shall be that thou shalt not speak unto mankind three days except by signs. Remember thy Lord much, and praise Him in the early hours of night and morning.’

Surah 19:8. ‘He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age?

9. He said: So it will be. Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I created thee before, when thou wast naught.

10. He said: My Lord! Appoint for me some token. He said: Thy token is that thou, with no bodily defect, shall not speak unto mankind three nights.

11. Then he came forth unto his people from the sanctuary, and signified to them: Glorify your Lord at break of day and fall of night.’

Luke 1:18. ‘And Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man and my wife is well advanced in years.”

19. And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

20. But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.”

21. And the people waited for Zechariah, and marveled that he lingered so long in the temple.

22. But when he came out, he could not speak to them; and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple, for he beckoned to them and remained speechless.

23. And so it was, as soon as the days of his service were completed, that he departed to his own house.

24. Now after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived.’

Placid

[yonus]

Hi Placid,

Quote : While you have invited me to Islam, I will not necessarily invite you to change your faith and become Christians, I just say, ‘become Spiritual Muslims,’ --- meaning ‘surrendered ones,’ to a loving God.

I didn't invite you to Islam , I said while man (any man ) is free ,not proud looking for the truth and he lives in democratic country , it is not good to say this man can't convert because he grow up with his belief so it is impossible to change his faith or he takes into account his people and his community .

God spoke about these such people :

43:23] And even so We sent not a warner before thee (Muhammad) into any township but its luxurious ones said: Lo! we found our fathers following a religion, and we are following their footprints.

43:24] (And the warner) said: What! Even though I bring you better guidance than that ye found your fathers following? They answered: Lo! in what ye bring we are disbelievers.

[yonus]

Hi Placid,

Quote : While Zechariah, the priest, was guardian of Mary, he also prayed for a child of his own:

Actually you are right, but it should be this : When Zakariya saw that she had (a cocktail ) fruit not in the season and when he asked her she said it is from God , he started wondering Waw ! I was in negligence ! Why did I not ask God for a son all these years till I became old man !

38. ‘Then Zechariah prayed unto his Lord and said: My Lord! Bestow upon me of Thy bounty goodly offspring. Lo! Thou art the Hearer of Prayer.

[placid]

Hi Yonus,

Yes, Surah 43 is very interesting. Mr Pickthall says it belongs to the middle Meccan Surahs, and it starts with this proclamation:

2. By the Scripture which maketh plain,

3. Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture, in Arabic that haply ye may understand.

4. And Lo! in the Source of Decrees, which We possess, it is indeed sublime, decisive.

5. Shall We utterly ignore you because ye are a wanton folk?

6. How many a prophet did We send among the men of old!

7. And never came there unto them a prophet but they used to mock him.

The rejection of the new message led to the first believers going to Abyssinia for their safety from rejection and persecution, and when asked by the Negus (king) what they believed, Ja'far ibn Abi Talib, cousin of the Prophet, recited Surah 19 which gives the record of Zechariah, John the Baptist, Mary, and Jesus. This is the most fundamental Christian testimony, is it not?

Therefore, Surah 19 was a very early revelation of what they believed, or it was an account given by Ja'far of what they learned fron the Gospel of Luke, as it parallels that account closely, does it not?

--- To continue with that testimony, and the 'similarities' of what I learned:

5) JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT

Surah 3:42. ‘And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! God hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above all the women of creation.

43. O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow in worship.

45. And remember when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! God giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the hereafter, and one of those brought near unto God.

46. He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.’

45. Yusuf Ali: ‘Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”

Luke 1:26-38 records it this way:

26. ‘Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

27. To a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

28. And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favoured one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women.”

29. But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.

30. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God.

31. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

32. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David,

33. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

34. Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35. And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

36. Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren,

37. For with God, nothing shall be impossible.”

38. Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.’

Surah 3:47. ‘She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So it will be. God createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: “Be!” And it is.’

Surah 19:18. ‘She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Godfearing.

19. He said: I am only a messenger of my Lord, that I may bestow on you a faultless son.

20. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

21. He said: So it will be. Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And it will be that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

22. And she conceived him.’

Surah 21:91. ‘And she who was chaste, therefore We breathed into her something of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for all peoples.’

Surah 66:12. ‘And Mary, daughter of Imran, whose body was chaste, therefore We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was of the obedient.’

Yusuf Ali: ‘And We breathed into her body of Our Spirit and she testified to the truth of the words.’

Rodwell: ‘Mary who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit.’

In both the Gospel and the Quran it is important to understand that it was the Holy Spirit of God that came upon Mary. It was a spiritual seed that was planted in her, not some relationship with a physical Personage or angel.

The Holy Spirit was not the spirit of Gabriel as some have suggested, or Jesus might have been called the son of Gabriel. No, the Holy Spirit is a Personage from heaven and was involved directly in the New Covenant, which is the Gospel, the Good News.

Notice: --- it said above, John the Baptist was ‘filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb.’ And Jesus was ‘conceived of the Holy Spirit,’ without a human father. Therefore the angel Gabriel said, ‘He will be CALLED the Son of God,’ which He is.

The big omission in the Quran is that there is little mention of the Holy Spirit beyond the first announcement to Mary that the Holy Spirit would come upon her.

In Luke 1, there is more:

39. ‘Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste to a city of Judah,

40. And entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.

41. And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

42. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

43. But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44. For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

45. Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.”

46. ‘And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord.

47. And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.

49. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name.

50. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.

51. He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

52. He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted the lowly.

53. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty.

54. He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy.

55. As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever.”

56. And Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her house.’

Sorry these Scripture passages get a little long but I want you to see how the Holy Spirit inspires, and speaks through, God’s willing servants.

Placid

[placid]

As I read the Quran and noticed the many references to the Gospels, I kept relating the experiences of the 'beginnings' with John the Baptist and Jesus.

6) THE BIRTH AND BLESSINGS OF JOHN AND JESUS

Again I want to mention that the Holy Spirit was involved in the introduction of the Gospel through those who spoke by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and prophesied.

As well as Mary and Elizabeth, --- there was also Zechariah, who spoke by inspiration after the birth of John, --- and when he was circumcised on the eighth day, Luke 1 says:

67. ‘Now his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying,

68. “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel for He has visited and redeemed His people

69. And has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David.

70. As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, who have been since the world began.

71. That we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us.

72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant.

73. The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:

74. To grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without fear,

75. In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our lives.

76. And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; for you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,

77. To give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins,

78. Through the tender mercy of our God, with which the Dayspring from on high has visited us.

79. To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

80. So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.’

Surah 19:12-15 honours John by saying:

12. ‘(And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And We gave him wisdom as a child.

13. And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout.

14. And dutiful toward his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious.

15. Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive.’

The ministry of John the Baptist is recorded in Matt 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, and John 1.

The account of the birth of Jesus is recorded in Matt 1:18-25 and Luke 2:1-20.

Matt records that, after Jesus was born, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem to see the young Child. --- After stirring up the city and king Herod by announcing that they were looking for the King of the Jews, they were directed to Bethlehem.

2:11. ‘And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshipped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.’

(Here it says they ‘worshipped Him’ as the King of the Jews, the coming Messiah).

Luke 2:21-35 says:

21. ‘And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

22. Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord.

23. As it is written in the law of the Lord, --- “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord.”

24. And to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

25. And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

26. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

27. So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law,

28. He took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:

29. “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, according to Your word;

30. For my eyes have seen Your salvation.

31. Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples.

32. A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles and the glory of Your people Israel.”

33. And Joseph and His mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of Him.

34. Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against.

35. (Yes, a sword will pierce through your own heart also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Surah 19: 27-36:

27. ‘Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

28. Oh sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

29. Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

30. He spoke: Lo! I am the slave of God. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet.

31. And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive.

32. And hath made me dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

33. Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

34. Such was Jesus, son of Mary, this is a statement of the truth of which they doubt.

35. It befitteth not the majesty of God that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only, “Be!” and it is.’

(This is a verse that says, --- though it is not befitting, or appropriate, and seemingly beneath Him, --- for Almighty God to have someone who is CALLED His Son, yet if He decreed it, He only says, “Be,” and it is). This is what the angel Gabriel said of Jesus, ‘He will be CALLED the Son of God.’

36. ‘And lo! God is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. This is the right path.’ --- Is this not the message of the Gospel and the Quran?

Placid

[placid]

I was fascinated to find so much about the ministry of Jesus in the Quran and how closely it follows the Gospel accounts of His miracles, healing, etc.

7) THE MINISTRY OF JESUS

We have come to the preparation of Jesus for His ministry.

Some of the same is recorded in Surah 3 as in Surah 5, and I like to compare them.

Surah 3:48. ‘And He (God) will teach Him the Scripture and Wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.’

5:110. ‘When God saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou speakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.’

3:49. ‘And will make him a Messenger unto the Children of Israel, saying: Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord.’

(From here on the two Scriptures blend into the ‘signs’ or miracles that Jesus performed in Israel where the common people heard Him gladly, but the hierarchy rejected Him).

Again I want to emphasize the presence of the Holy Spirit who indwelt Jesus from His birth and was the Spirit of God within. The Holy Spirit was from God, therefore what the Holy Spirit did through Jesus was God’s will.

Now the verses blend where it says, (49) ‘Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by God’s permission.’ (110) ‘And how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission.’

This is important to note: --- that the power of creation was in Jesus. This is the thing that may be missed by the casual reader, that --- JESUS CREATED A BIRD.

A verse says that ‘God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.’ So here we see the creative power of God in Jesus. (The creation of a bird from clay is not mentioned in the NT but has been mentioned in some Christian writing).

Now we can look at this two ways, which may surprise you, but a reader of the NT will understand. --- God breathed His Spirit into Mary to bring Jesus into being, --- therefore we can say, because the Holy Spirit of God was in Jesus, --- then Jesus could breathe this same Holy Spirit into a bird made of clay and give it life. Okay?

Secondly, --- in John 1:1-3 it says, ‘In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.’ --- That says that the ‘Word’ was the Creative Power of God. He was there in the beginning and was active in all of God’s creation.

John 1:14. ‘And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.’

So we see Jesus, indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, and the embodiment of the Word of God who was in the beginning with God and through whom God created everything.

You see how easy creation was for Jesus? He had the power of creation within. Many times in healing there had to be the creation of a bone or part of the body, but nothing is too hard for God. --- He only says, “Be!” And it is.

Again in 5:110. ‘Thou didst heal him who was born blind.’ --- There are many healings

of the blind in the NT. --- Because this is well known I won’t add Scripture verses.

‘And the leper by My permission.’ Leprosy was a dreaded disease and Jesus healed those with leprosy, then they had to be declared ‘clean’ before they could re-enter society.

‘And how thou didst raise the dead by My permission.’ These miracles were beyond the natural so Jesus proved beyond any shadow of doubt who He was. When Lazarus died and was buried Jesus waited four days before He raised him from the dead. I have heard that the Jews believed that the spirit of the departed stayed around for three days, and that it might be possible to raise one to life within three days, but Jesus waited four days.

All of these miracles were witnessed in the NT and the Pharisees disputed about Jesus, who He was, --- and one of the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee named Nicodemus, came to Jesus.

John 3:2. ‘Nicodemus said, “Master, we know that You are a Teacher come from God for no man can do the miracles that You do unless God is with Him.”

3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly I say to you, except one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The miracles were done by the power of the Holy Spirit within Jesus, and Jesus told Nicodemus that unless you have that power you cannot ‘see’ or understand the kingdom of God. The term being ‘born again’ means being ‘born of the Spirit,’ --- Jesus said:

6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7. Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.

8. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (Their discussion continues to verse 21).

These miracles were accepted by the common people upon whom they were performed. Jesus had compassion on the poor and needy and ministered to them and they followed Him. Matt 5:1.

Surah 57:26. ‘And We verily sent Noah and Abraham and placed the Prophethood and the Scripture among their seed.

27. Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him.’

Placid

[yonus]

Hi Placid,

Quote : John 3:2. ‘Nicodemus said, “Master, we know that You are a Teacher come from God for no man can do the miracles that You do unless God is with Him.”

A teacher came from God means You are sent from God . It seems that Nicodemus is not very serprised of Jesus miracles since he read the Torat and saw Moses miracles .As you know Placid that the people are divided into two sections : Educated people (Ulama ) and public (A'mmah ).I have noticed that the people of the NT have Immunity against (this man is God ) whether they were educated people like Nicodemus ,Caifah ,those who argued with him and later they cast him with stones because his saying (son of God ) or the public un educated people (A'mmah ) .Although they have seen wonder works ,but they didn't go away or jump to divinity because they are satisfied with (tawhid ) .Example : Suppose I got leprocy (God forbid ) Lying on the side of the road, my fingers of hand and foot fall down ,then a man came his name is Jesus christ and healed me ! I think I would say this man is God in carnation if he didn't tell me who he is .John 10:33 "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

[placid]

Hi Yonus,

You made a good deduction that the leaders rejected Jesus, but the common people followed Him.

John the Baptist started preaching that there was One coming, a Messenger of God.

Math 3:5. Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the regions around the Jordan went out to him

6. And were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

Everybody heard the message and there was a real revival in preparation for the coming of Jesus. And the Pharisees and Sadducees came out as observers, but it doesn't say they were baptized. John spoke to them about their need for repentance.

7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8. Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

Nicodemus, a Pharisee, and one of the leaders in the Sanhedrin, said, "WE KNOW that you are a teacher come from God."

You are right, he was not surprised at the power of God working through Jesus, --- and Nicodemus later believed in Jesus. --- So the leadership knew who Jesus was, they just rejected Him, and the reason is that they knew He was a threat to them.

When they plotted to kill Him and brought Him to Pilate for a trial:

27:18. 'For he (Pilate) knew that because of envy they had delivered Him.'

--- The Pharisees and chief priests were jealous of Him, and this was their reasoning:

John 11:47. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.

48. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

Notice their deception in the Scripture you gave from John 10:33:

"For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Jesus never said He was God, but only the Son of God. As the angel Gabriel had said to Mary, "He shall be called the Son of God."

Here is a later conversation at His trial:

Luke 23:66. As soon as it was day, the elders of the people, both chief priests and scribes, came together and led Him into their council, saying,

67. “If You are the Christ, tell us.”

But He said to them, “If I tell you, you will by no means believe.

68. And if I also ask you, you will by no means answer Me or let Me go.

69. Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.”

70. Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?”

So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”

71. And they said, “What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”

Jesus never said He was God, but only the Son of God, but they accused Him of blasphemy anyway, and said He should be put to death.

An interesting twist was that the Jews didn't have authority to condemn anyone to death, only the Romans could condemn to death, so when they took Him to Pilate, he asked what He was guilty of and they didn't say "blasphemy" as that was not punishable by death, so they had to accuse Him of something else.

Luke 22:1. Then the whole multitude of them arose and led Him to Pilate.

2. And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.”

3. Then Pilate asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

He answered him and said, “It is as you say.”

4. So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no fault in this Man.”

5. But they were the more fierce, saying, “He stirs up the people, teaching throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee to this place.”

It was eventually mob violence that overwhelmed Pilate and he finally 'washed his hands' and said, "You take Him and crucify Him."

Placid

[yonus]

Thank you Placid,

So why he didn't tell them that Gabrail has named me (son of God ) ?

He said is it not written that ye are gods ! which means if you are not gods I am also not son of God .

What do you think ?

[placid]

Hi Yonus,

He said is it not written that ye are gods ! which means if you are not gods I am also not son of God .

--- I believe it was written in history or poetry that 'we are gods.' --- Both the Greeks and the Romans seemed to think they were some kind of gods.

However, we are all children of God, are we not? --- But their desire was to accuse Jesus of saying He was God, which he didn't do.

I want to add some more of what I have learned from the Quran.

8) FULFILLING THE LAW AND MAKING IT NEW

To continue from Surah 3:49, after the miracles and healings and raising the dead, --- there is this:

‘And I announce unto you what you eat and what you store in your houses.’

While this is not too clear in detail it was the case that Jesus taught a new philosophy of life in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt 5, 6, and 7.

6:19. “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break through and steal;

20. But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven,

21. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

25. “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?

26. Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

27. Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28. So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow, they neither toil nor spin;

29. And yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more cloth you, O you of little faith?

31. Therefore do not worry, saying, --- What shall we eat? Or, --- What shall we drink? Or, --- What shall we wear?

32. For after all these things the people of the world seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things.

33. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.”

Surah 3:49. ‘Lo! Herein verily is a portent for you, if you are to be believers.’ --- The portent or sign that Jesus taught them was simply, FAITH IN GOD. Trust God and rely on His provision.

50. ‘And I come confirming that which was before me of the Torah.’ --- Jesus honoured the previous Scriptures and related the new Gospel message to them.

‘And to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.’ --- Jesus said in Matt: 5:17. “Do not think that I come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

20. (He speaks of the previous failing of the Law by saying): “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”

So He brought some changes. --- First --- to restore faith in God as provider. --- Second --- to develop a right attitude towards others by upgrading the Ten Commandments:

21. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, --- You shall not murder.

22. But I say to you, that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. (Anger can be the attitude of murder).

23. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,

24. Leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”

27. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, --- You shall not commit adultery.

28. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

38. “You have heard that it was said, --- An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

39. But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. --- (This is basically accepting a ‘slap in the face’ without retaliating, but rather by allowing the opportunity for further abuse).

40. If someone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.”

43. “You have heard that it was said, --- You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy. (It wasn’t written in the law, ‘hate your enemy,’ but it was assumed).

44. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.”

These were the ‘changes’ that Jesus taught, --- which were the fulfilling of the law by a changed attitude, --- one motivated by love, --- that is, by God’s love in one’s heart.

He taught the ‘Golden Rule,’ Matt 7:12, ‘Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.’

When asked by a lawyer, “Which is the great commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied:

Matt 22:37. “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

38. This is the first and great commandment.

39. And the second is like it; you shall love your neighbour as yourself.

40. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Now I ask you --- is this not good teaching?

This is the new message that Jesus brought and that people followed. Were they wrong to follow Jesus? --- Is this not the Straight path?

Surah 3:50. ‘I came unto you with a sign from your Lord.’ --- Notice: --- He said ‘a sign from YOUR Lord.’ He was the ‘sign’ from God. --- And He went on to say:

‘So keep your duty to God (your Lord) --- and obey Me.’

They were to obey Jesus’ teaching, as He was ‘the Messenger of God.’

51. ‘Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a Straight path.’

Placid