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bladeknight

why do we need the hadith?

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5 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Bro then you should have a problem with Islam too? It teaches and forces us the reality that God created. People danced, committed sin after sin but once Islam came they couldn’t by law do any of these things, if this is not force than what is? My question to you is-religion enforces and that’s tantamount, why do you talk about ‘unfair’ force but then talk about religion, many argue that religion is unfair too

its very contradictory for you to bring this up together

and no we don’t owe anything to ourselves, Allah GUIDES WHO HE WISHES, if you’re on the true path it’s thanks to Allah meaning that you’re not the sole reason for this and there is external reasons, that’s why when you pray you call out to the rasool and his wali, you cannot pray without even mentioning this. Aren’t they who taught us Islam? By your logic we shouldn’t even be accepting them because we are being ‘indoctrinated’

you're on a slippery slope and will fall into paradox with thinking like this, I really hope you don’t continue with thinking like this-it brings you no benefit because as far as I can see you’ll be even questioning following the Propeht even especially since you say he is like us, thereby stripping him of the authority God himself gave him

my sincere advice is to avoid this kind of thinking 

and I also advise you not to accuse me of those things, I didn’t do that to you so please don’t do that to me. Were two unknowns on the internet

Iam allowed to be passionate and express my opinions, but that’s different than accusing people of things and being hateful

openmindendess is one thing and complete ignorance and avoidence of the truth is another 

Theres many iterations of islam flying about. Which one is real and why? That's my issue.

The quran says there should be no compulsion in religion but it happens when we raise kids, and have people teach their versions as though they're truth.  It says there's one islam and we must never divide. 

Its hard to align someone who follows another sect to convince the other that their idea of islam is not correct.

Truth has to be proven or reasoned.   Did you reason your beliefs or accepted them without question when you were taught?

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Theres many iterations of islam flying about. Which one is real and why? That's my issue.

The quran says there should be no compulsion in religion but it happens when we raise kids, and have people teach their versions as though they're truth.  It says there's one islam and we must never divide. 

Its hard to align someone who follows another sect to convince the other that their idea of islam is not correct.

Truth has to be proven or reasoned.   Did you reason your beliefs or accepted them without question when you were taught?

You make a lot of assumptions,you shouldn’t be worrying about others and their journeys that’s only with Allah. You should worry about yourself. The question you ask others and me should first be answered and directed at yourself. You’re under the assumption that you yourself follow truth but everyone else doesn’t, but God has promised many a place in paradise. So surely there’s more than yourself and surely you must make bond with true followers.

we were talking about Hadith, I was talking about Hadith in regards to the Propeht and the reliable chain of the ahulbayt. 

Mall you’ve done so far is make assumptions. 

Its seems you think people will believe anything but you don’t know anyone personally. And How and why they believe, that’s certainly the case here 

i think you should make less assumptions 

again there is nothing wrong with discussion but it seems you fault others for defending their position without understanding what they are saying

my position has been I’ll follow something that gives me actual guidance rather than give me more questions and leaves me to my own faculties to figure everything out. Obviously Humans cannot do that as their knowledge is limited 

your argument is -why follow this? You should be questioning more and have no opinion. Why follow anyone becuase you may be wrong. 

Well religion is about faith and for Shias(this IS A Shi’a platform why are you surprised about our views) it’s about hanging on to the rope of Allah which is Quran AND ahulbayt which requires the wilaya of Imam Ali(as)

what is book with the example or explainer. That’s the position and that’s why schools exist. If you have a problem with that model then maybe propose another that can educate masses amount of people equally and holds them accountable equally.

so therefore my opinion has remained unchanged because your argument rather than answers requires more confusion in areas that are unnecessary. Faith requires some acceptance of truth from the heart

thats just my opinion 

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1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

You’re under the assumption that you yourself follow truth but everyone else doesn’t, but God has promised many a place in paradise. So surely there’s more than yourself and surely you must make bond with true followers

Bro i know im using assumptions  but  me having the truth isnt one of them. I acknowledge my opinions are opinions.

You however as you've stated before  you yourself are under the assumption youre following truth.  That was the basis of my entire argument. Hadith veracity IS an assumption. So why do we act like we are on haqq if the basis of beleif are assumptions ?

Not just you but everyone... christians.. jews.. Hindus.. sects among them and when I was sunni assumed what i beleive was true.  And now im kinda lost and unsure because i started questioning. 

My opinion is that no hadith can be confirmed as coming from the prophet, and therefore God.   From what time ive spent researching and self reflecting,  ive determined for myself that Quran alone is sufficient at this point and time

1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

my position has been I’ll follow something that gives me actual guidance rather than give me more questions and leaves me to my own faculties to figure everything out. Obviously Humans cannot do that as their knowledge is limited

We are not stationary beings. Our rationality and experiences grow and what we didnt understand today we may understand tomorrow.

What if the guidance given to you is not right?  What will you do? How do you know? Im asking you literally?  I sure as hell didnt when i abided by sunnism and sufism.   

What makes you trust the information you're getting. 

Let me be clear  who told you to follow ahlul bayt? Why did you believe them

Edited by wmehar2

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17 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

My opinion is that no hadith can be confirmed as coming from the prophet, and therefore God.   From what time ive spent researching and self reflecting,  ive determined for myself that Quran alone is sufficient at this point and time

Salam do you know that just using Quran mislead more people that misleaded or lost the way if we don’t have Ahlulbayt (as) beside Quran all of us will astray from true way & our way of access toward Ahlulbayt (as) even Imam Mahdi (aj)  is by their Hadith btw if we need more help Imam Mahdi (aj) will help us & doesn’t leave us alone .

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24 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam do you know that just using Quran mislead more people that misleaded or lost the way if we don’t have Ahlulbayt (as) beside Quran all of us will astray from true way & our way of access toward Ahlulbayt (as) even Imam Mahdi (aj)  is by their Hadith btw if we need more help Imam Mahdi (aj) will help us & doesn’t leave us alone .

Walaikumassalaam bro. 

If Quran only misled them, would they have not misled themselves combining with hadith anyway? Because of how many  there are, the different  gradings by different scholars and interpretations.  Its very complicated to just remember them and follow them.

Does that not allow room for more subjectivity and people following parts differently ?  

If someone read Qur'an  sincerely,  would they need hadith be a rightly guided muslim?  That's the test case. 

I would argue those who use quran only and then who kill innocents arent reading quran sincerely and would have butchered  people anyway.. For example.

You say you have ahlul bayt but how do you know words werent put in their mouths on paper?  Its happened before. 

Edited by wmehar2

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

You say you have ahlul bayt but how do you know words werent put in their mouths on paper?  Its happened before. 

If you Quran it says it will mislead more who are misleaded but instructs more who find the way

We compare their Hadith with Quran if it was in same was as Quran we accept it & if it was not we reject it

Not All hadiths are hadiths part1 Ft Imam Muhammad Al Asi

Not All hadiths are hadiths part2 Ft Imam Muhammad Al Asi

Not All hadiths are hadiths part3 Ft Imam Muhammad Al Asi

Part4

https://youtu.be/6yftQr-rNio

Abuhurayra and ka’b al Ahbar Ft Imam Muhammad Al Asi

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

You however as you've stated before  you yourself are under the assumption youre following truth.  That was the basis of my entire argument. Hadith veracity IS an assumption. So why do we act like we are on haqq if the basis of beleif are assumptions ?

Not just you but everyone... christians.. jews.. Hindus.. sects among them and when I was sunni assumed what i beleive was true.  And now im kinda lost and unsure because i started questioning. 

My opinion is that no hadith can be confirmed as coming from the prophet, and therefore God.   From what time ive spent researching and self reflecting,  ive determined for myself that Quran alone is sufficient at this point and time

We will not agree on this, what is your self reflection? It’s a product of your own mind so it’s implicent with your own bias and your own lens and emotions. Let’s say if you’re stubborn then how can you self reflect? Self deprecation is necessary

hadith are not assumptions, you act like 1400 yrs ago nobody had a pencil or paper. Of course some may be lies but that doenst mean the true ones are gone, the Propeht wasn’t mute 

heck the Quran was oral THEN written down, whose to say it ended? The words of God out of the Propeht? That’s essentially what Muslims say, who is to say the guidance and wisdom is over? Who is to say otherwise? That’s why hadith are not assumptions becuase the Quran would also fall under your definition  here. Why accept the Quran then? 

Youre questioning in a weird way that uproots the fundamentals like infallibility and that the wisdom of God never ended through the prophet...

the problem is which narration is stronger and which chain is stronger-and therefore provable to have come from the Quran as context. Shias make it simple and say if it’s from the family of the Propeht then it’s verified as being a strong chain, and no doubt their ACTIONS and way of life was simple enough to make their case for them. Bring me one person comparable to these personalities and qualities that have been destined in the Quran?

and do you pray 5 times a day? Why? When the Quran only mentions prayer 3 times? Ponder over this please

Also for Shias, then Why do you think the necessary components of love is required when talking about the prophet and his family? Why do think it’s required for Shias to love them more than themselves? Becuase that’s where true faith and trust begins. The teachings of Quran are what makes me believe in this entirely even though I don’t possess all the intellect. My heart and soul feel a certain way -Each day since I was a child I pondered over my religion, talking to God, endless thoughts and streams. And I realized how much God loved these personalities and that he shared them to us, because  through loving them can we truly glorify God. We accept Hadith that are passed from the chain of ahulbayt, I critique all sources but I don’t critique ones coming from ahulbayt and which upon inspection doesn't contradict with the Quran and their lives too. They have never made mistakes-I dare you to bring me such evidence. Surah 33 is enough to tell me to follow ahulbayt and to trust them and have faith in them becuase they’re the APPOINTED channels of God. No Infact Surah Al hamd is Enough for me to put all my love and trust in them becuase God has made them to be ways to bring his mercy upon us. That’s MY viewpoint and it’s always changing and growing but I will not question what God has put into place, which for me they’re many

In any case I don’t have to prove anything to you, and frankly we are going in circles. We are not going to agree( although I do agree on the self reflection and growth but not the outright unjustified denial especially since we don’t understand the nature of some things..., we just don’t have enough knowledge) it is important to discuss and grow but it’s not necessary to always question everything especially things you yourself have no answer too-like what does God look like? Is there a god? Clearly they’re questions that shouldn’t be asked (this is an example to showcase my point)

Anyway,  think it’s enough you’ve stated you’re opinion and I have stated mine, we are not going to dig much deeper like this and learn anything 

so peace 

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1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

and do you pray 5 times a day? Why? When the Quran only mentions prayer 3 times? Ponder over this please

I pray 3, because you're right . It mentions three times.  I also break fast after sun is fully set.

Edited by wmehar2

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2 hours ago, Ralvi said:

We will not agree on this, what is your self reflection? It’s a product of your own mind so it’s implicent with your own bias and your own lens and emotions. Let’s say if you’re stubborn then how can you self reflect? Self deprecation is necessary

My self reflection tells me how do i know hadith isn't someone elses bias?

Asking a seemingly  devout  sunni, Christian Jew or shia (anyone of any faith really)  to question or self reflect.. they will respond the same as you are now.  If you all beleive you follow the truth then it is impossible to consider any other alternative knowledge vehicle or consideration of faith outside your own....  Which is a bias of itself.  That's what reflection tells me. So arent you, the standard salafi similar in stubbornness in this regard?  

I dont ask to leave shiasm i ask to consider and reflect perhaps your inner light leads you back to your beleif.

I disagree that self thought is a product of bias . Because self thought in its purest form doesnt take in information and accept them without validation or empirical based facts.  Self reflection is mitigation against going with the crowd mentality.   A hedge against close mindedness.

The institution of islam that uses hadith today does not have such enough evidence for me to accept it. 

Maybe ahlul bayt were perfect in preserving and with knowledge ... what about the fallible people who came after them? They could have corrupted or fail to preserve or tried to make things up with good intentions... Shiasm is not without its many sects and splits and inner fights. 

I want to take a new perspective and read gods message ..fresh.  like someone whose not been burdened with  our tattered history and khalifa/wars/splits.  With a blank mind.  

I want to beleive sincerely and not because everyone else is despite me not understanding it.

2 hours ago, Ralvi said:

hadith are not assumptions, you act like 1400 yrs ago nobody had a pencil or paper. Of course some may be lies but that doenst mean the true ones are gone, the Propeht wasn’t mute 

heck the Quran was oral THEN written down, whose to say it ended? The words of God out of the Propeht? That’s essentially what Muslims say, who is to say the guidance and wisdom is over? Who is to say otherwise? That’s why hadith are not assumptions becuase the Quran would also fall under your definition  here. Why accept the Quran then? 

All religion is assumption, faith is believing without seeing to a certain extent is it not?

Hadith undoubtedly do not serve as a video camera or window of the past with 100% certainty otherwise we would all be muslims on this planet of one religion.  That's why we have the word faith. Beleif in the unseen.  We have suggestive but not definitive evidence of islamic history and what has transpired... that is why hadith are assumptions.  We don't know if there was an organized effort even with the best of intentions in mind to twist narratives  (both positive ans negative)  such that they were invented and not really true?

True Quran could fall in this category... but I accept the quran because the miracle in it is that it is untouched by man.  There is no way a man or woman could have created it. In it is no contradiction. I see in it something i never seen or thought possible.  It is beyond this realm, so i beleive.   I didnt believe this when i just followed religion based on teachings of mosques and sunni community.. i took it for granted. 

Anything man made or man preserved is flawed and such are hadith and its riddled with them everywhere.  That is why even if few are genuine i cannot accept them.  No text or hadith on THIS planet cansupercede quran.  It calls itself the best hadith. 

I am filled with feelings i cant described that push me towards belief when i read the quran and no other text of words has made that impact on me. But not so of hadith. 

No contradiction can come in this book. Therefore it is not man made.  That is the basis of my belief and my evidence. 

If you feel that  quran is special only with hadith beside it, so be it.  We will agree to disagree bro.   Your wali is imam Ali AS,  ... And I ask Allah to be mine... and god willing it is sufficient for both of us.

 

Edited by wmehar2

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3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

My self reflection tells me how do i know hadith isn't someone elses bias?

Asking a seemingly  devout  sunni, Christian Jew or shia (anyone of any faith really)  to question or self reflect.. they will respond the same as you are now.  If you all beleive you follow the truth then it is impossible to consider any other alternative knowledge vehicle or consideration of faith outside your own....  Which is a bias of itself.  That's what reflection tells me. So arent you, the standard salafi similar in stubbornness in this regard?  

I dont ask to leave shiasm i ask to consider and reflect perhaps your inner light leads you back to your beleif.

I disagree that self thought is a product of bias . Because self thought in its purest form doesnt take in information and accept them without validation or empirical based facts.  Self reflection is mitigation against going with the crowd mentality.   A hedge against close mindedness.

The institution of islam that uses hadith today does not have such enough evidence for me to accept it. 

Maybe ahlul bayt were perfect in preserving and with knowledge ... what about the fallible people who came after them? They could have corrupted or fail to preserve or tried to make things up with good intentions... Shiasm is not without its many sects and splits and inner fights. 

I want to take a new perspective and read gods message ..fresh.  like someone whose not been burdened with  our tattered history and khalifa/wars/splits.  With a blank mind.  

I want to beleive sincerely and not because everyone else is despite me not understanding it.

All religion is assumption, faith is believing without seeing to a certain extent is it not?

Hadith undoubtedly do not serve as a video camera or window of the past with 100% certainty otherwise we would all be muslims on this planet of one religion.  That's why we have the word faith. Beleif in the unseen.  We have suggestive but not definitive evidence of islamic history and what has transpired... that is why hadith are assumptions.  We don't know if there was an organized effort even with the best of intentions in mind to twist narratives  (both positive ans negative)  such that they were invented and not really true?

True Quran could fall in this category... but I accept the quran because the miracle in it is that it is untouched by man.  There is no way a man or woman could have created it. In it is no contradiction. I see in it something i never seen or thought possible.  It is beyond this realm, so i beleive.   I didnt believe this when i just followed religion based on teachings of mosques and sunni community.. i took it for granted. 

Anything man made or man preserved is flawed and such are hadith and its riddled with them everywhere.  That is why even if few are genuine i cannot accept them.  No text or hadith on THIS planet cansupercede quran.  It calls itself the best hadith. 

I am filled with feelings i cant described that push me towards belief when i read the quran and no other text of words has made that impact on me. But not so of hadith. 

No contradiction can come in this book. Therefore it is not man made.  That is the basis of my belief and my evidence. 

If you feel that  quran is special only with hadith beside it, so be it.  We will agree to disagree bro.   Your wali is imam Ali AS,  ... And I ask Allah to be mine... and god willing it is sufficient for both of us.

 

You talk as if you know me personally, I suggest you quit that. You don’t know me and don’t know my inner workings. Stop projecting. Like I’ve said multiple times God knows me. I mean we are strangers on the internet for God sake.

form the beginning I have been giving you the standard Shi’a practice because after all this is a Shi’a forum. We have standards to qualify ourselves, and are not going to prod at or berate points that are central for us just to satisfy you

you demand we be similar to you and question the way you do. Guess what I rather question other things and not what you want. That’s not stubbornness that’s holding the accepted standard needed to be on the right path.

youre free to have your beliefs but don’t project you’re bias onto me

like I said there’s no discussion here anymore and now you’re accusing and getting mad that we don’t question what you question? Are we the same person?

Don’t even compare Shias to salafis :dry:

do you even know what you’re talking about? 

Instead of answers you’re just demand people to question! Question everything! Like bruh...no, faith and religion require some things to NOT be questioned

i mean do you even want answers? You just want more questions? Do you really seek a clear cut path?

I know I do so that means I’ll be getting more answers than questions 

Or are you just infatuated with the idea of being this romanticized misunderstood ‘intellectual’ that always questions and questions because he is so...much better than everybody else...and nobody will ever understand him...it’s very European and western this attitude 

Honestly if you care to learn, I’ve defended my points because I heavily believe them and are true to me. Stop assuming that we are weak in our belief and that somehow our reasoning and self reflection is weak. You don’t know that.

And I never said the Quran is any less special without Hadith- where did you get that. That’s an awful accusation. I’ve said there are hadith that are necessary to contextualize Quran because it is also Allahs guidance. I’ve made this abundantly clear 

Anyway, You’re not my judge, God is 

so just go live your life and quit assuming things about others. Follow your own advice and self reflect and perfect yourself. I’ll be doing that too

good luck I guess 

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5 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I want to take a new perspective and read gods message ..fresh.  like someone whose not been burdened with  our tattered history and khalifa/wars/splits.  With a blank mind.  

I want to beleive sincerely and not because everyone else is despite me not understanding it.

Ahlulbayt (as) are not just persons that were in history & passed away ,they were Speaking Quran as now Imam Mahdi (aj) is speaking Quran can you find more fresher version of Quran than him ,you idea like as people that left imam Ali(as) in Siffin battle & preferred writing on scrolls  to speaking Quran ,they just you were saying that they don't mind about khalifate & other stuff but they just care about Quran but because of their ignorance they sticked to writings instead of live & speaking Quran the Imam Ali (as) and completely lost the way & people like you are doing the same about Imam of their time ,Imam Mahdi (aj) that is speaking Quran of our time. 

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5 hours ago, Ralvi said:

You talk as if you know me personally, I suggest you quit that. You don’t know me and don’t know my inner workings. Stop projecting. Like I’ve said multiple times God knows me. I mean we are strangers on the internet for God sake.

form the beginning I have been giving you the standard Shi’a practice because after all this is a Shi’a forum. We have standards to qualify ourselves, and are not going to prod at or berate points that are central for us just to satisfy you

you demand we be similar to you and question the way you do. Guess what I rather question other things and not what you want. That’s not stubbornness that’s holding the accepted standard needed to be on the right path.

youre free to have your beliefs but don’t project you’re bias onto me

like I said there’s no discussion here anymore and now you’re accusing and getting mad that we don’t question what you question? Are we the same person?

Don’t even compare Shias to salafis :dry:

do you even know what you’re talking about? 

Instead of answers you’re just demand people to question! Question everything! Like bruh...no, faith and religion require some things to NOT be questioned

i mean do you even want answers? You just want more questions? Do you really seek a clear cut path?

I know I do so that means I’ll be getting more answers than questions 

Or are you just infatuated with the idea of being this romanticized misunderstood ‘intellectual’ that always questions and questions because he is so...much better than everybody else...and nobody will ever understand him...it’s very European and western this attitude 

Honestly if you care to learn, I’ve defended my points because I heavily believe them and are true to me. Stop assuming that we are weak in our belief and that somehow our reasoning and self reflection is weak. You don’t know that.

And I never said the Quran is any less special without Hadith- where did you get that. That’s an awful accusation. I’ve said there are hadith that are necessary to contextualize Quran because it is also Allahs guidance. I’ve made this abundantly clear 

Anyway, You’re not my judge, God is 

so just go live your life and quit assuming things about others. Follow your own advice and self reflect and perfect yourself. I’ll be doing that too

good luck I guess 

Only one seeming to get mad and offended is you man.  It doesn't feel like you're reading my points.. just defending yourself from me who isnt attacking.  Its a discussion , or debate  and youre not humoring it. So fine .

You said Quran alone isn't sufficient to be a rightly guided muslim... does not that contradict quran which says it left nothing out? Is that not saying Quran is useless alone?

You say we cant question ... then how is someone who follows  a wrong path ever going to come towards the right path? Its just Gods fault and he wants them to be misguided?

These are real questions man  not jabs.  If you cant be bothered to think about them then i would appreciated if someone else  could  jump  in and offer an opinion 

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Ahlulbayt (as) are not just persons that were in history & passed away ,they were Speaking Quran as now Imam Mahdi (aj) is speaking Quran can you find more fresher version of Quran than him ,you idea like as people that left imam Ali(as) in Siffin battle & preferred writing on scrolls  to speaking Quran ,they just you were saying that they don't mind about khalifate & other stuff but they just care about Quran but because of their ignorance they sticked to writings instead of live & speaking Quran the Imam Ali (as) and completely lost the way & people like you are doing the same about Imam of their time ,Imam Mahdi (aj) that is speaking Quran of our time. 

Where are they now ?

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Where are they now ?

They are beside Allah as Martyrs but still have connection with their Shias & Imam Mahdi (aj) can be in everyplace on this earth as Ayatollah Behjat (ra) said if you make pure your heart from sin he will be in your heart also Imam Mahdi (aj) ordered to shias that during his occultation they refer to the Hadith spreaders as his deputies but he is not neglecting us & helps us I. Every hardship.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Only one seeming to get mad and offended is you man.  It doesn't feel like you're reading my points.. just defending yourself from me who isnt attacking.  Its a discussion , or debate  and youre not humoring it. So fine .

You said Quran alone isn't sufficient to be a rightly guided muslim... does not that contradict quran which says it left nothing out? Is that not saying Quran is useless alone?

You say we cant question ... then how is someone who follows  a wrong path ever going to come towards the right path? Its just Gods fault and he wants them to be misguided?

These are real questions man  not jabs.  If you cant be bothered to think about them then i would appreciated if someone else  could  jump  in and offer an opinion 

You demand we question things the way you do, Iam saying I don’t agree. You’re not bringing anything to the table. And like I said contextualizing and saying it’s not sufficient is another. Actual and true Hadith contextualize Quran, without Hadith How would you know how to pray?

again you’ve really brought nothing to the table but accusations that we who believe something fullheartedly are somehow not reflecting or reasoning it out and everybody is blind except for you. Im pointing out your fallacy here

and yeah there is no discussion because you’re not reading my points either, you’re just like but what if you’re wrong? Ok so what? Do you have suggestions? No? Yeah that’s what I thought 

you can’t learn without a teacher, so even if you’re a hermit recluse and have this intellect complex you’ll never learn because you’ve cut off the teacher and guide ‘yourself’ and you just question and question illogically.

this has been what your demand has been sounding like.

there is such a thing as stupid/illogical/ paradoxical questions 

humans don’t learn without the teacher 

how does one guide themselves? 

You cant. It’s illogical

iam passionate I’ll admit, so what may be stubbornness to you is just me defending my basic principles. I have an open mind and I listen but I don’t tolerate the demeaning of the family of the Propeht or of basic principles for Shias 

whatever, I still stand strong as a Shi’a of Ali (as) because Muhammed and ahl Muhammed (saaws) are my teachers from the principal Allah

H:NH:

Edited by Ralvi

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1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

You demand we question things the way you do, Iam saying I don’t agree. You’re not bringing anything to the table. And like I said contextualizing and saying it’s not sufficient is another. Actual and true Hadith contextualize Quran, without Hadith How would you know how to pray?

again you’ve really brought nothing to the table but accusations that we who believe something fullheartedly are somehow not reflecting or reasoning it out and everybody is blind except for you. Im pointing out your fallacy here

and yeah there is no discussion because you’re not reading my points either, you’re just like but what if you’re wrong? Ok so what? Do you have suggestions? No? Yeah that’s what I thought 

you can’t learn without a teacher, so even if you’re a hermit recluse and have this intellect complex you’ll never learn because you’ve cut off the teacher and guide ‘yourself’ and you just question and question illogically.

this has been what your demand has been sounding like.

there is such a thing as stupid/illogical/ paradoxical questions 

humans don’t learn without the teacher 

how does one guide themselves? 

You cant. It’s illogical

iam passionate I’ll admit, so what may be stubbornness to you is just me defending my basic principles. I have an open mind and I listen but I don’t tolerate the demeaning of the family of the Propeht or of basic principles for Shias 

whatever, I still stand strong as a Shi’a of Ali (as) because Muhammed and ahl Muhammed (saaws) are my teachers from the principal Allah

H:NH:

No one has a gun to your head man. Theres no demands it's an ask.

No one here is insulting your religion.  

I have provided suggestions as questions but they were ignored. *shrug*.

My perspective is that Allah is the teacher, in his book.  Allah is the guide.

I dont know how to get you to see that your perspective and basis of reality has been shaped by someone who isn't you in a way that doesnt seem offensive or threatening to your moral compass. 

You ask how does one guide themselves?  Allah says in quran :

Allah SWT said:

يٰٓأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا بِطَانَةً مِّنْ دُونِكُمْ لَا يَأْلُونَكُمْ خَبَالًا وَدُّوا مَا عَنِتُّمْ قَدْ بَدَتِ الْبَغْضَآءُ مِنْ أَفْوٰهِهِمْ وَمَا تُخْفِى صُدُورُهُمْ أَكْبَرُ  ۚ  قَدْ بَيَّنَّا لَكُمُ الْأَايٰتِ  ۖ  إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ
"O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 118)

Many other passages like above refer to us to use reason?  What is reasoning?  The divine characteristic Allah imbued us all with.  

We have a divine ability to reason right from wrong.

It was my self reflection that brought me away from Sunni islam, lies and corruption of the religion they brought, it was my self reflection that reversed the fear and dislike of shia brothers.  It got me this far.

I never demeaned the  family or prophet. I've only said you have no proof people have corrupted their teachings.  In fact we have mountians of evidence indicating it has been corrupted. That is not intended for offense.

Edited by wmehar2

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

They are beside Allah as Martyrs but still have connection with their Shias & Imam Mahdi (aj) can be in everyplace on this earth as Ayatollah Behjat (ra) said if you make pure your heart from sin he will be in your heart also Imam Mahdi (aj) ordered to shias that during his occultation they refer to the Hadith spreaders as his deputies but he is not neglecting us & helps us I. Every hardship.

What did beleivers do before  imams were born? 

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

No one has a gun to your head man. Theres no demands it's an ask.

No one here is insulting your religion.  

I have provided suggestions as questions but they were ignored. *shrug*.

My perspective is that Allah is the teacher, in his book.  Allah is the guide.

I dont know how to get you to see that your perspective and basis of reality has been shaped by someone who isn't you in a way that doesnt seem offensive or threatening to your moral compass. 

You ask how does one guide themselves?  Allah says in quran :

Allah SWT said:

يٰٓأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا بِطَانَةً مِّنْ دُونِكُمْ لَا يَأْلُونَكُمْ خَبَالًا وَدُّوا مَا عَنِتُّمْ قَدْ بَدَتِ الْبَغْضَآءُ مِنْ أَفْوٰهِهِمْ وَمَا تُخْفِى صُدُورُهُمْ أَكْبَرُ  ۚ  قَدْ بَيَّنَّا لَكُمُ الْأَايٰتِ  ۖ  إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ
"O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 118)

Many other passages like above refer to us to use reason?  What is reasoning?  The divine characteristic Allah imbued us all with.  

We have a divine ability to reason right from wrong.

It was my self reflection that brought me away from Sunni islam, lies and corruption of the religion they brought, it was my self reflection that reversed the fear and dislike of shia brothers.  It got me this far.

I never demeaned the  family or prophet. I've only said you have no proof people have corrupted their teachings.  In fact we have mountians of evidence indicating it has been corrupted. That is not intended for offense.

Tell me what is reason? How do you have the word of god without the appointed channel? Does their status diminish after some time? 

What proof of humans having ‘divine’ reasoning? What Is that? Do you mean someone who is divinity appointed putting you on the path of good reasoning, good for the soul and mind?

I think that’s where you’re confused. 

We say no they’re status cannot change and they cannot have an ‘on’ or ‘off’ button

you wouldn’t know what direction to take if it weren’t for the ones god chose. That’s essentially what shiaism is. We cannot deny that god has appointed a rasool and a wali THROUGH which Allah communicates. God is separate from us therefore he doesn’t DIRECTLY talk to us, his status is too high for that. He is the great the almighty

His command is manifest through the channels ie Muahmmed and ahl muhammed. That goes for guidance too- remember seeratul mustaqeem? 

but you reject them for no other reason then you’re own viewpoint that somehow they’re just like us? But then why choose Muhammed and not you or me? Was it not becuase they possess something special? And is he not the Propeht after the Quran was revealed? Does his guidance ever end? You’ve drawn arbitrary lines of your own accord

i say we have no such power becuase the last imam is still alive therefore muahmmed is still alive and therefore their guidance never ends and Allahs decree and guidance doenst end

God knows more than you or me and he has chosen who he wills, therefore we must turn to them becuase they are the seeratul mustaqeem, from there can you have actual reason and reflection 

You pick and choose and then you want us to be confused too

nah dude, reason without proper direction is just confusion

and like I said if you follow chain of narration you can avoid corrupted hadiths, I’m not saying accept them all-that’s where actual reasoning come from. All the Imams have written books, remember Imam Ali also participated in writing down the Quran too, and we have had 12 generations of holy imams with actual ‘divine reasoning’ To tell us the actual Hadith and words of the Prophet. Iam saying there’s no problem in accepting those because evidence supports them. 

I think you’re confused with that too, you keep making it seem like Iam saying we should accept anything and to be blind. No matter of course not

by that logic shouldn’t someone have tampered with the Quran?

But Quran says it’s protected? 

Now here is an actual good chance to question. Question well how will it be protected when the Bible and Torah have been corrupted? Simple answer-there is someone who protects it as per the will of God. For evey will there is an ‘action’. Muahmmed and ahl muahmmed are this action and will. Imam Mehdi is still alive therefore the true word of Allah is still alive 

you haven’t given suggestions, we already follow Quran so that’s not a suggestion. All you’ve said is to question everything? Hey did Imam Ali question the Propeht every time they went to war? Or Everytime they had to fight? Or question the Revelations coming out of the Prophets mouth?

No, he followed without question and accepted becuase that is what actual submitance is, that’s what being Muslim is. Without him seeratul mustaqeem would not be here. The Propeht himself said Ali is seeratul mustaqeem

if I followed your dogma I would be questioning everything and doubting everything and maybe there would be no Islam or actual Muslims. That’s why I say it’s dangerous to think like this and it’s really self destructive 

iam just saying don’t be surprised us Shi’a take the word of the prophet and his wali with complete conviction because we know that is what Allah wills. We will not question what is well established and made stronger via the Quran. The Quran talks about past, present and future events. And describes figures that require our complete trust and love in. 

We follow Quran first 

Edited by Ralvi

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

What did beleivers do before  imams were born? 

Oh they existed and were the guiders of the prophets of that time. Everytime the Quran mentions that the prophets  followed or were given the sign of God-it was actually the Propeht and Imam Ali. The came from heaven frequently to guide. And remember guidance came heavily through dreams as well

so nothing we know would be here without the Panjataan pak 

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1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

but you reject them for no other reason then you’re own viewpoint that somehow they’re just like us? But then why choose Muhammed and not you or me? Was it not becuase they possess something special? And is he not the Propeht after the Quran was revealed? Does his guidance ever end? You’ve drawn arbitrary lines of your own accord

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ  ۖ  فَمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُوا لِقَآءَ رَبِّهِۦ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صٰلِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِۦٓ أَحَدًۢا
"Say, I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord - let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone."
(QS. Al-Kahf 18: Verse 110)

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ فَاسْتَقِيمُوٓا إِلَيْهِ وَاسْتَغْفِرُوهُ  ۗ  وَوَيْلٌ لِّلْمُشْرِكِينَ
"Say, O [Muhammad], I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness. And woe to those who associate others with Allah -"
(QS. Fussilat 41: Verse 6)

You say i draw arbitrarily lines? Have a look at the verses!

Your words contradicted quran in many places.  It says he's a man like us. You said muhammad existed with imam ali and gave guidance.. but muhammad didnt know Allah was one  until revelatio according to this Qur'an passage. It was revealed to Muhammad Allah is one, how do you explain that?

1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

What proof of humans having ‘divine’ reasoning? What Is that? Do you mean someone who is divinity appointed putting you on the path of good reasoning, good for the soul and mind?

Allah SWT says:

أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ  ۚ  إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا كَالْأَنْعٰمِ  ۖ  بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا
"Or do you think that most of them hear or reason? They are not except like livestock. Rather, they are [even] more astray in [their] way."
(QS. Al-Furqaan 25: Verse 44)

The very same reasoning Allah is referring to here, its a blessing like vision and hearing senses.

1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

All the Imams have written books, remember Imam Ali also participated in writing down the Quran too, and we have had 12 generations of holy imams with actual ‘divine reasoning’ To tell us the actual Hadith and words of the Prophet. Iam saying there’s no problem in accepting those because evidence supports them. 

[Quran 6:114-115] Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[Quran 55:1-2] The Most Gracious. Teacher of the Quran.

Why is Allah saying he teaches quran not Imams? Why is hadith being considered for sources of law if quran says dont use anything else? Hadiths are written books by pen as you say... quran verse here directly says this book is revealed to us fully detailed.  

If you're saying we need guidance, you're  inadvertently saying god made mistakes with the quran and made mistakes making humanity stupid.

1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

i say we have no such power becuase the last imam is still alive therefore muahmmed is still alive and therefore their guidance never ends and Allahs decree and guidance doenst end


اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتٰبًا مُّتَشٰبِهًا مَّثَانِىَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلٰى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ  ۚ  ذٰلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِى بِهِۦ مَنْ يَشَآءُ  ۚ  وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ ۥ  مِنْ هَادٍ
"Allah has sent down the best hadith: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide."
(QS. Az-Zumar 39: Verse 23)

It says here Allah guides...not imams or prophets?

Allah SWT says:

مَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُؤْتِيَهُ اللَّهُ الْكِتٰبَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقُولَ لِلنَّاسِ كُونُوا عِبَادًا لِّى مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلٰكِنْ كُونُوا رَبّٰنِيِّۦنَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتٰبَ وَبِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ
"It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, Be servants to me rather than Allah, but [instead, he would say], Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 79)

Why are we told this verse by Allah says for us to study  the scripture?  Not study what hadith of Muhammad or Imams?

1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

We cannot deny that god has appointed a rasool and a wali


أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُ ۥ  مُلْكُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالْأَرْضِ  ۗ  وَمَا لَكُمْ مِّنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ مِنْ وَلِىٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
"Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?"
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 107)


يُولِجُ الَّيْلَ فِى النَّهَارِ وَيُولِجُ النَّهَارَ فِى الَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِى لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى  ۚ  ذٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ  ۚ  وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِۦ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ
"He causes the night to enter the day, and He causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon - each running [its course] for a specified term. That is Allah, your Lord; to Him belongs sovereignty. And those whom you invoke other than Him do not possess [as much as] the membrane of a date seed."
(QS. Faatir 35: Verse 13)

Allah SWT says:

وَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمُوٓا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَوْلٰىكُمْ  ۚ  نِعْمَ الْمَوْلٰى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ
"But if they turn away - then know that Allah is your protector. Excellent is the protector, and Excellent is the helper."
(QS. Al-Anfaal 8: Verse 40)

Without hadith if you read these verses plainly,  you would see level with me. But you do not want to.


وَمَا يَتَّبِعُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ إِلَّا ظَنًّا  ۚ  إِنَّ الظَّنَّ لَا يُغْنِى مِنَ الْحَقِّ شَيْئًا  ۚ  إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌۢ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ
"And most of them follow not except assumption. Indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do."
(QS. Yunus 10: Verse 36)

Edited by wmehar2

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9 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ  ۖ  فَمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُوا لِقَآءَ رَبِّهِۦ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صٰلِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِۦٓ أَحَدًۢا
"Say, I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord - let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone."
(QS. Al-Kahf 18: Verse 110)

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ فَاسْتَقِيمُوٓا إِلَيْهِ وَاسْتَغْفِرُوهُ  ۗ  وَوَيْلٌ لِّلْمُشْرِكِينَ
"Say, O [Muhammad], I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness. And woe to those who associate others with Allah -"
(QS. Fussilat 41: Verse 6)

Your words contradicted quran in many places.  It says he's a man like us. You said muhammad existed with imam ali and gave guidance.. but muhammad didnt know Allah was one  until revelatio according to this Qur'an passage. It was revealed to Muhammad Allah is one, how do you explain that?

Allah SWT says:

أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ  ۚ  إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا كَالْأَنْعٰمِ  ۖ  بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا
"Or do you think that most of them hear or reason? They are not except like livestock. Rather, they are [even] more astray in [their] way."
(QS. Al-Furqaan 25: Verse 44)

The very same reasoning Allah is referring to here, its a blessing like vision and hearing senses.

[Quran 6:114-115] Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[Quran 55:1-2] The Most Gracious. Teacher of the Quran.

Why is Allah saying he teaches quran not Imams? Why is hadith being considered for sources of law if quran says dont use anything else? Hadiths are written books by pen as you say... quran verse here directly says this book is revealed to us fully detailed.  

If you're saying we need guidance, you're  inadvertently saying god made mistakes with the quran and made mistakes making humanity stupid.


اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتٰبًا مُّتَشٰبِهًا مَّثَانِىَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلٰى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ  ۚ  ذٰلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِى بِهِۦ مَنْ يَشَآءُ  ۚ  وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ ۥ  مِنْ هَادٍ
"Allah has sent down the best hadith: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide."
(QS. Az-Zumar 39: Verse 23)

It says here Allah guides...not imams or prophets?

Allah SWT says:

مَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُؤْتِيَهُ اللَّهُ الْكِتٰبَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقُولَ لِلنَّاسِ كُونُوا عِبَادًا لِّى مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلٰكِنْ كُونُوا رَبّٰنِيِّۦنَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتٰبَ وَبِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ
"It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, Be servants to me rather than Allah, but [instead, he would say], Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 79)

Why are we told this verse by Allah says for us to study  the scripture?  Not study what hadith of Muhammad or Imams?


أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُ ۥ  مُلْكُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالْأَرْضِ  ۗ  وَمَا لَكُمْ مِّنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ مِنْ وَلِىٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
"Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?"
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 107)


يُولِجُ الَّيْلَ فِى النَّهَارِ وَيُولِجُ النَّهَارَ فِى الَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِى لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى  ۚ  ذٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ  ۚ  وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِۦ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ
"He causes the night to enter the day, and He causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon - each running [its course] for a specified term. That is Allah, your Lord; to Him belongs sovereignty. And those whom you invoke other than Him do not possess [as much as] the membrane of a date seed."
(QS. Faatir 35: Verse 13)

Allah SWT says:

وَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمُوٓا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَوْلٰىكُمْ  ۚ  نِعْمَ الْمَوْلٰى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ
"But if they turn away - then know that Allah is your protector. Excellent is the protector, and Excellent is the helper."
(QS. Al-Anfaal 8: Verse 40)

Without hadith if you read these verses plainly,  you would see level with me. But you do not want to.


وَمَا يَتَّبِعُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ إِلَّا ظَنًّا  ۚ  إِنَّ الظَّنَّ لَا يُغْنِى مِنَ الْحَقِّ شَيْئًا  ۚ  إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌۢ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ
"And most of them follow not except assumption. Indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do."
(QS. Yunus 10: Verse 36)

 

:blabla:

A lot of what you just said is false, where your proof he didn’t know? When God revealed his oneness to The prophet how would you when that happened? It obviously happened-are you one who says that the Propeht wasn’t born a Propeht but suddenly became one at age 40? What nonsense. All you do is make assumptions. And keep going in circles without even analyzing what you’re saying yourself 

stating we need guidance mean Allah’s guidance NEVER ENDS, not that the Quran is wrong? Why do you twist everything!??

Are you saying you don’t make mistakes? Are you saying you’re above guidance?

I’m sure you think you can directly communicate to god can’t you? What’s the need for following all these stuffy rules huh?

I’m done here you keep going in circles and have some sort of complex 

you win ok? You’re smarter than the rest of us and we are all stupid and blind 

:coffee:

 

Edited by Ralvi

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8 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

 

:blabla:

A lot of what you just said is false, where your proof he didn’t know? When God revealed his oneness to God how would you when that happened? It obviously happened-are you one who says that the Propeht wasn’t born a Propeht but suddenly became one at age 40? What nonsense. All you do is make assumptions. And keep going in circles without even analyzing what you’re saying yourself 

stating we need guidance mean Allah’s guidance NEVER ENDS, not that the Quran is wrong? Why do you twist everything!??

Are you saying you don’t make mistakes? 

I’m sure you think you can directly communicate to god can’t you? What’s the need for following all these stuffy rules huh?

I’m done here you keep going in circles and have some sort of complex 

you win ok? You’re smarter than the rest of us and we are all stupid and blind 

:coffee:

 

It says it RIGHT there... arent you reading??? That's Allahs word there bro.  Read it aloud, word by word.  Youre asking me for proof when its right in front of you man.

Alot of what i said is false?? Alot of what was in that post  was quran....not my words.

You're saying i make assumptions when i just put quran in front.

Or is the evidence from quran too strong and you're copping out and feeling too lazy here to justify your beliefs. 

There is a reason why that last post i just put in Gods words to respond instead of my own.. and you say im twisting it?

Or are you just too tired  and lost interest in this conversation. And were wasting each others time???

God communicated to all of us with quran..... its here to stay so DUH guidance is there for us.

Of course we all make mistakes it doesnt stop us form being muslims. Problem is you think whoever taught hadith and preserved hadith didnt make mistakes at all.

This conversation is completely one-sided @Ralvi.  Im actually listening to your arguments.. digesting them and processing them...taking time to formulate a response to them.  While you're not even doing the same for mine and just feeding your own reinforced beleifs... I give up!

You Dont even have the courtesy to reciprocate my effort in this  discussion .

Edited by wmehar2

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

It says it RIGHT there... arent you reading??? That's Allahs word there bro.  Read it aloud, word by word.  Youre asking me for proof when its right in front of you man.

Alot of what i said is false?? Alot of what was in that post  was quran....not my words.

You're saying i make assumptions when i just put quran in front.

Or is the evidence from quran too strong and you're copping out and feeling too lazy here to justify your beliefs. 

There is a reason why that last post i just put in Gods words to respond instead of my own.. and you say im twisting it?

Or are you just too tired  and lost interest in this conversation. And were wasting each others time???

God communicated to all of us with quran..... its here to stay so DUH guidance is there for us.

Of course we all make mistakes it doesnt stop us form being muslims. Problem is you think whoever taught hadith and preserved hadith didnt make mistakes at all.

This conversation is completely one-sided @Ralvi.  Im actually listening to your arguments.. digesting them and processing them...taking time to formulate a response to them.  While you're not even doing the same for mine and just feeding your own reinforced beleifs... I give up!

You Dont even have the courtesy to reciprocate my effort in this  discussion .

Why would I have a problem with the quranic verses? Those are fine and don’t contradict what Iam saying, in fact they reinforce it but your shortsighted and cannot grasp it here

my problem is with your logic and reasoning, so I go straight to that, I don’t need to address those verses because I don’t have problem with them.

Why beat around the bush when I can get straight to the problem

your logic and reasoning are wrong

in fact they sound similar to a certain jinn

but what do I know right?

:bye:

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5 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

What did beleivers do before  imams were born? 

Salam Imams were before creation everything ,Allah at first created them ,then created rest of creation & light of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (as) was with prophets & warners until their light separated after born of Prophet (pbu) so believers existed after their creation as Imam Sadiq (as) said our shias created from remaining of our creation.

 

6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

My perspective is that Allah is the teacher, in his book.  Allah is the guide

does Allah directly talks & teaches you , with your mindset coming all prophets (as) & all trials of humans was just for fun 

 

3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Your words contradicted quran in many places.  It says he's a man like us. You said muhammad existed with imam ali and gave guidance.. but muhammad didnt know Allah was one  until revelatio according to this Qur'an passage. It was revealed to Muhammad Allah is one, how do you explain that?

how dare you to insult prophet (pbu) he was first creation that prayed Allah , you compeletly misunderstand verse because you interpret on your behalf , all prophets specially Prophet Muhammad just were repeating & spreading what Allah says & orders them to say it & they didn't speak on their behalf 

all of things belongs to Allah even Prophets & Imams (as) & they stated that they don't have nothing from themselves that they are like slaves to a great master which they have no will against him.

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6 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Why would I have a problem with the quranic verses? Those are fine and don’t contradict what Iam saying, in fact they reinforce it but your shortsighted and cannot grasp it here

my problem is with your logic and reasoning, so I go straight to that, I don’t need to address those verses because I don’t have problem with them.

Why beat around the bush when I can get straight to the problem

your logic and reasoning are wrong

in fact they sound similar to a certain jinn

but what do I know right?

:bye:

You said :

 

8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

but you reject them for no other reason then you’re own viewpoint that somehow they’re just like us? 

Quran says 

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ  ۖ  فَمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُوا لِقَآءَ رَبِّهِۦ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صٰلِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِۦٓ أَحَدًۢا
"Say, I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord - let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone."
(QS. Al-Kahf 18: Verse 110)

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ فَاسْتَقِيمُوٓا إِلَيْهِ وَاسْتَغْفِرُوهُ  ۗ  وَوَيْلٌ لِّلْمُشْرِكِينَ
"Say, O [Muhammad], I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness. And woe to those who associate others with Allah -"
(QS. Fussilat 41: Verse 6)

...

.......

....

.....

im at a loss  of words at this point. 

tell me WHY you feel my logic is bad and reasoning.  This is all i want. I want your evidences,  hadith.. quran interpretation on what it is saying so maybe i can see where youre coming from! 

Edited by wmehar2

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5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Imams were before creation everything ,Allah at first created them ,then created rest of creation & light of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (as) was with prophets & warners until their light separated after born of Prophet (pbu) so believers existed after their creation as Imam Sadiq (as) said our shias created from remaining of our creation.

 

does Allah directly talks & teaches you , with your mindset coming all prophets (as) & all trials of humans was just for fun 

 

how dare you to insult prophet (pbu) he was first creation that prayed Allah , you compeletly misunderstand verse because you interpret on your behalf , all prophets specially Prophet Muhammad just were repeating & spreading what Allah says & orders them to say it & they didn't speak on their behalf 

all of things belongs to Allah even Prophets & Imams (as) & they stated that they don't have nothing from themselves that they are like slaves to a great master which they have no will against him.

According to your hadith and no place else.

If prophets and ahlul bayt followed  quran why would they contradict unless a lie was invented for them?

I have no intentions of insulting  anyone my beleif is on basis of what im reading in quran with the most plain dircect /intuitive meaning. 

A better question how do you guys sort out the bad and corrupt hadith who told you who were the reliable people and chains? Other hadith?  Do you use hadith to verify other hadith?!

Is The rule for verifiying hadith not 'if it contradicts quran reject it'... or hadith come first?

@Ralvi

Edited by wmehar2

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11 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

better question how do you guys sort out the bad and corrupt hadith who told you who were the reliable people and chains? Other hadith?  Do you use hadith to verify other hadith?!

Is The rule for verifiying hadith not 'if it contradicts quran reject it'... or hadith come fir

We at first verify Hadith by Quran if it was in line with Quran we accept it & if it has contradiction will deny it 

also by effort of Grand Ayatollah Khoei we have a strong bank for identifying Hadith narrators 

your interpretation of Quran same as Khawarij & current Wahhabi channels .

imam Ali (as) when send Ibn Abbas to negotiates with them before start of Nahriwan battle said to him discuss them on reasoning & rationality because Quran can be Interpret in different ways & they will find a way out to bring excuse for their works but againstreasoning & rationality they don’t have a way out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

your interpretation of Quran same as Khawarij & current Wahhabi channels .

Are you sure? Because i pray 3 times a day and break fast in the full night.  Im certain if i told them abu bakr doesn't  need to be first khalifa  in order for me to be Muslim... theyll call me kafir 

Edited by wmehar2

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40 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

also by effort of Grand Ayatollah Khoei we have a strong bank for identifying Hadith narrators 

 

Could you please elaborate on that strong bank according to ayatollah khoei

What do you know about it?

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20 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

 

Could you please elaborate on that strong bank according to ayatollah khoei

What do you know about it?

It’s available here

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Mu'jam_rijal_al-hadith_(book)

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20 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Thanks.  Ill have to put this on order. 

Is this  comprehensive or do other books that have other hadith grades  fron other scholars/ayatollahs that exist?

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13 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ  ۖ  فَمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُوا لِقَآءَ رَبِّهِۦ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صٰلِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِۦٓ أَحَدًۢا
"Say, I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord - let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone."
(QS. Al-Kahf 18: Verse 110)

Allah SWT said:

قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۠ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحٰىٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلٰهُكُمْ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ فَاسْتَقِيمُوٓا إِلَيْهِ وَاسْتَغْفِرُوهُ  ۗ  وَوَيْلٌ لِّلْمُشْرِكِينَ
"Say, O [Muhammad], I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness. And woe to those who associate others with Allah -"
(QS. Fussilat 41: Verse 6)

You say i draw arbitrarily lines? Have a look at the verses!

Your words contradicted quran in many places.  It says he's a man like us. You said muhammad existed with imam ali and gave guidance.. but muhammad didnt know Allah was one  until revelatio according to this Qur'an passage. It was revealed to Muhammad Allah is one, how do you explain that?

Allah SWT says:

أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ  ۚ  إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا كَالْأَنْعٰمِ  ۖ  بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا
"Or do you think that most of them hear or reason? They are not except like livestock. Rather, they are [even] more astray in [their] way."
(QS. Al-Furqaan 25: Verse 44)

The very same reasoning Allah is referring to here, its a blessing like vision and hearing senses.

[Quran 6:114-115] Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[Quran 55:1-2] The Most Gracious. Teacher of the Quran.

Why is Allah saying he teaches quran not Imams? Why is hadith being considered for sources of law if quran says dont use anything else? Hadiths are written books by pen as you say... quran verse here directly says this book is revealed to us fully detailed.  

If you're saying we need guidance, you're  inadvertently saying god made mistakes with the quran and made mistakes making humanity stupid.


اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتٰبًا مُّتَشٰبِهًا مَّثَانِىَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلٰى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ  ۚ  ذٰلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِى بِهِۦ مَنْ يَشَآءُ  ۚ  وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ ۥ  مِنْ هَادٍ
"Allah has sent down the best hadith: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide."
(QS. Az-Zumar 39: Verse 23)

It says here Allah guides...not imams or prophets?

Allah SWT says:

مَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُؤْتِيَهُ اللَّهُ الْكِتٰبَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقُولَ لِلنَّاسِ كُونُوا عِبَادًا لِّى مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلٰكِنْ كُونُوا رَبّٰنِيِّۦنَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتٰبَ وَبِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ
"It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, Be servants to me rather than Allah, but [instead, he would say], Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 79)

Why are we told this verse by Allah says for us to study  the scripture?  Not study what hadith of Muhammad or Imams?


أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُ ۥ  مُلْكُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالْأَرْضِ  ۗ  وَمَا لَكُمْ مِّنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ مِنْ وَلِىٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
"Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?"
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 107)


يُولِجُ الَّيْلَ فِى النَّهَارِ وَيُولِجُ النَّهَارَ فِى الَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِى لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى  ۚ  ذٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ  ۚ  وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِۦ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ
"He causes the night to enter the day, and He causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon - each running [its course] for a specified term. That is Allah, your Lord; to Him belongs sovereignty. And those whom you invoke other than Him do not possess [as much as] the membrane of a date seed."
(QS. Faatir 35: Verse 13)

Allah SWT says:

وَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمُوٓا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَوْلٰىكُمْ  ۚ  نِعْمَ الْمَوْلٰى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ
"But if they turn away - then know that Allah is your protector. Excellent is the protector, and Excellent is the helper."
(QS. Al-Anfaal 8: Verse 40)

Without hadith if you read these verses plainly,  you would see level with me. But you do not want to.


وَمَا يَتَّبِعُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ إِلَّا ظَنًّا  ۚ  إِنَّ الظَّنَّ لَا يُغْنِى مِنَ الْحَقِّ شَيْئًا  ۚ  إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌۢ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ
"And most of them follow not except assumption. Indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do."
(QS. Yunus 10: Verse 36)

I agree.

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10 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

According to your hadith and no place else.

If prophets and ahlul bayt followed  quran why would they contradict unless a lie was invented for them?

I have no intentions of insulting  anyone my beleif is on basis of what im reading in quran with the most plain dircect /intuitive meaning. 

A better question how do you guys sort out the bad and corrupt hadith who told you who were the reliable people and chains? Other hadith?  Do you use hadith to verify other hadith?!

Is The rule for verifiying hadith not 'if it contradicts quran reject it'... or hadith come first?

@Ralvi

I agree with @Ashvazdanghe has said

and I have provided verses

bismillahirahmneeraheem

namely Surah 33 which mentions the right of the prophet over everyone for ‘believers ‘

the purification of the ahulbayt which the members were proven by the event of Mubahila( the purification term which is past,present, future tense therefore it’s a promise that has been made before the universe was created and still exists now) it’s the only time God has made a direct promise to anybody which again raises the status of the ahulbayt as more than us humans. God doenst interact with anyone directly except for in this case where he clearly has.

Surah al hamd which mentions seeratul mustaqeem which is in present and future tense and not past these, therefore it’s something that is present now and will always be present. Hadith of Propeht Muhammed mentions that Imam Ali is seeratul mustaqeem which is the context of the Quran ‘for those who care to learn’

Surah Ayub 

75 talks about creation with two hand. Do you think God has two hands? Or did God give a decree and the the channel went ahead and made the body? Remember God wills and it is 

and verse 83, where Satan says he will lead astray everyone except the pure ones, who are those? Who CANNOT be touched? If they are the purified ones then even Satan acknowledges he cannot touch them. Therefore they are better than humans and not like us. Remember Satan hates humans!! Why would he not lead astray a human? Of course he will try for every human becuase thats his mission to prove to God that he was wrong in choosing a human as Khalifa. Ah it’s because they’re not like us! That’s the ahulbayt! Surah 33 verse 33 explained!

Arabic language and context is important it’s technical Hadith how to fast, how to pray, how sacrifice animals, how to properly dress, how to marry, how to teach, how to live!! All of these are mentioned in the Quran but contextualized by the prophet, I think you’re problem is you want to make a distinction between the Propeht and Quran. Shias make no distinction becuase all of it is God’s guidance 

surah 62 verse 51

Surah Najm- what was behind that lote  tree? The biggest sign of God?

imam Ali has said Iam the biggest sign of God

therefore it’s  well established just form the Quran itself that Muhammed ahl Muhammed existed before anything else

them being plain warners doenst make them like us at all. Those prophets still have authority over you. God has said multiple times he has created everything in ranks. Even believers have ranks and even heaven has ranks. The one in the highest rank is the one closest to God and who else could that be but the purified ones that God promised to protect? 

and the seal of prophets is like you? Really? The one prophesied in all 3 books is like you  and me? The one who had to come after 124,000 prophets? The Quran certainly doesn’t think so 

remember the ones martyred in way of Islam are not merely dead but very much alive. Their status doenst go away and your needing to be witness to that never goes away, that’s why its in the Azan, iqamat, you have them, in tahsahud you have them, without them youre prayer isn’t even a prayer and is not reaching Allah

and if you read no matter the language A decree is always mentioned in either ‘me or I’ or ‘we’. Surah Iklass calls for someone to bear witness that there is one creator and he is not begotten not begets.

so there is only one God, so why the we? Can you explain? Unless God had already created something before the universe? The one that God has shared all his secret knowledge to? The one that is tasked to then share this knowldge as authority  over all other creations? Wouldn’t they be the special ones? Because God is separate and above everything, he has created channels that will appropriately station God as above everything? If God interacts directly why have prophets? Why have anything at all? And wouldn’t that dimish the mystery, power and status of god? If he is so easily accessible? No no God is great, great, and greater

Have you witnessed that God is one? Or if he is samad? Or is he lam yalid wa lam yoolad? Why would god call someone to witness if there isn’t anyone? Is God just playing games? Or did he make a system which you and I don’t know about? If knowledge is hidden then there is someone with authority to reveal it

Clearly there is someone who can factually say that he is one. And that is none other than Muhammed and Ali (saaws)

as for sources like I said it needs to be trusthworty and make sense with the Quran because it’s fact that the Propeht never stopped speaking and guiding after the Quranic revelation, so it’s up to us to find everything and follow everything. That’s where we really have to work. And of course that’s why we have scholars who help with finding and comparing such knowledge...

thsi is not easy stuff

My family looks to Sayed Sistani in regards to laws ect because we come from Ja’farri school of thought. imam Jafar Sadiq (as) was a well of knowledge where all the current branches of Islam got their thinking from and they went their merry well. He wrote so many books and thought so many people he is where we can look to Islamic law etc without him even you would know nothing. Nobody would know nothing. Without Imam Hussein there wouldn’t even be any Islam because the book would have been corrupted etc etc 

Imam Ali has said he is the gate to the city of knowledge, if you don’t go to him you’ll never reach it. Imam Ali’s wilaya is at the center of Everything

Ahulbayt  is and always will be the answer 

I’ve said the same thing over and over

if you cannot and will not see that’s fine 

you do you 

I’ll do me

Edited by Ralvi

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