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bladeknight

why do we need the hadith?

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

And since how many rak'at we offer in prayers is not mentioned in Quran, therefore it is also not important. How many sajdah's in each rak'at  should be performed, is not important for you. @Raheel Yunus, Do you even believe in Prophet Muhammad (S)?

 I believe in Prophet Mohammad (s).

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1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

How is this not different than when shaitan said he only needed Allah and that he did not need a mere man or need to bow down to Adam?

and rejecting khilafa before it’s revealed? God said there would be a Khalifa in the land, he never said who or when or what or why, but Satan rejected when he didn’t know and thought he knew and that he it was sufficient for himself to just believe in God. Clearly that wasn’t the truth and clearly that wasn’t enough. Clearly he wasn’t a real believer 

How is this not different than telling Allah what is better for his religion? Irony at its max 

I resembles satan because i do not follow hadeeth ?

Take a look .........

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060058-sahih-bukhari-volume-9-book-93/
 

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I wish if you were able to see the words of angels:

قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ
What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? (2:30) 

I wish you were able to comprehend the crime of Iblis: 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي خَالِقٌ بَشَرًا مِنْ صَلْصَالٍ مِنْ حَمَإٍ مَسْنُونٍ
فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِنْ رُوحِي فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ 
فَسَجَدَ الْمَلَائِكَةُ كُلُّهُمْ أَجْمَعُونَ 
إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ أَنْ يَكُونَ مَعَ السَّاجِدِينَ

15:28-31

 

Can you please expand? I don’t know how it relates to my post? Thank you would appreciate your thoughts 

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3 hours ago, Raheel Yunus said:

I resembles satan because i do not follow hadeeth ?

Take a look .........

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060058-sahih-bukhari-volume-9-book-93/
 

I’m saying your argument is ironic, and that it’s the same spirit and argument Iblis made. God sent the Quran yet you are questioning the one that is master over it. Ie hadith from the prophet who is a walking talking Quran. God sends things in fixed writing and that is quiet and sends one who is master over it and is never quiet. That is why one cannot have the Quran and NOT the ahlulbayt, you must have both; becuase the Quran can then be used As a tool for mans desires and ambitions. I.e Bible, Torah whose masters are long gone now. But a Muhammed is still here and therefore the Quran has remained undistorted 

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5 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Can you please expand? I don’t know how it relates to my post? Thank you would appreciate your thoughts 

Excuse me brother, mistakenly quoted you. That comment was directed towards Raheel

5 hours ago, Ralvi said:

How is this not different than when shaitan said he only needed Allah and that he did not need a mere man or need to bow down to Adam?

and rejecting khilafa before it’s revealed? God said there would be a Khalifa in the land, he never said who or when or what or why, but Satan rejected when he didn’t know and thought he knew and that he it was sufficient for himself to just believe in God. Clearly that wasn’t the truth and clearly that wasn’t enough. Clearly he wasn’t a real believer 

How is this not different than telling Allah what is better for his religion? Irony at its max 

 

Edited by Salsabeel
Typo

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:06 PM, Salsabeel said:

How should we give talaq? What to recite and say when giving talaq?

There are very clear instruction about talaq in Quran.

But hadeeth says otherwise and because of this came instant talaq.

People giving talaq through facebook, whatsapp,email,mobile. Instant talaq a product of hadeeth being misused.

 

 

 

Edited by Raheel Yunus

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On 11/24/2018 at 3:12 AM, Raheel Yunus said:

(2:2)This is the Book, there is no doubt in it, a Guidance for the Muttaqeen.

This is the very beginning of Quran.
It says the book is guidance for those who have no doubt in it.

And those who do not have any doubt in it (Muttaqeen) will follow the verses firmly which are the basis of Quran and understand perfectly the meaning of the allegorical verses.
One have to attain the status of Muttaqi it is difficult but not impossible.

and do not ever think that you will not be able to understand/interpret Quran. 

 

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ {2}

[Shakir 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[Pickthal 2:2] This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

*****

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
[Yusufali 5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {56}

[Shakir 5:56] And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.
[Pickthal 5:56] And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious.
[Yusufali 5:56] As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.

*****

إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَدُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ {1}

[Shakir 63:1] When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.
[Pickthal 63:1] When the hypocrites come unto thee (O Muhammad), they say: We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.
[Yusufali 63:1] When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.

اتَّخَذُوا أَيْمَانَهُمْ جُنَّةً فَصَدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّهُمْ سَاءَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ {2}

[Shakir 63:2] They make their oaths a shelter, and thus turn away from Allah's way; surely evil is that which they do.
[Pickthal 63:2] They make their faith a pretext so that they may turn (men) from the way of Allah. Verily evil is that which they are wont to do,
[Yusufali 63:2] They have made their oaths a screen (for their misdeeds): thus they obstruct (men) from the Path of Allah: truly evil are their deeds.

ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا فَطُبِعَ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ {3}

[Shakir 63:3] That is because they believe, then disbelieve, so a seal is set upon their hearts so that they do not understand.
[Pickthal 63:3] That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed so that they understand not.
[Yusufali 63:3] That is because they believed, then they rejected Faith: So a seal was set on their hearts: therefore they understand not.

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On 11/24/2018 at 3:12 AM, Raheel Yunus said:


Do not stop here, try to purify yourself by following the verses which is basis of the Quran and you will be among those who are firmly rooted in knowledge  and you will say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord      And book itself will tell you everything.

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

1) Decisive Verse - Basis of the Book

2) Allegorical Verse

3) Whose hearts there is perversity they follow the Allegorical

4) Why- Seeking to mislead

5) how- by seeking to give it their own interpretation.

Let's stop here...

What is the Book itself telling you here? 

Ok, lets not stop here.

6) Who knows the Interpretation  of the Book? 

7) Who are the ones firmly rooted in knowledge? 

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I do not know the process of collecting Hadith.
Suppose "X" came to the Rasool (saw) with a question. "X" got the answer. After sometime "X" told "Y" what he listened. After sometime "Y" passed this information to "Z", "Z" to "A".

What is the guarantee that 
"A" knows exactly what being said to "X".

The person who is collecting hadith after many years passed, how he is sure that these are the same words  Exalted one spoke.

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1 hour ago, Raheel Yunus said:

You.

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ {34}

[Shakir 2:34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
[Pickthal 2:34] And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.
[Yusufali 2:34] And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

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36 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

I do not know the process of collecting Hadith.
Suppose "X" came to the Rasool (saw) with a question. "X" got the answer. After sometime "X" told "Y" what he listened. After sometime "Y" passed this information to "Z", "Z" to "A".

What is the guarantee that 
"A" knows exactly what being said to "X".

The person who is collecting hadith after many years passed, how he is sure that these are the same words  Exalted one spoke.

The well-known and reliable hadith of the Prophet - "I am the city of knowledge and 'Ali is its gate" 

https://www.al-islam.org/tahrif/cityofknowledge/index.htm

*****

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235020389-why-not-only-follow-quran/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-3179787

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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8 hours ago, Ralvi said:

I’m saying your argument is ironic, and that it’s the same spirit and argument Iblis made. God sent the Quran yet you are questioning the one that is master over it. Ie hadith from the prophet who is a walking talking Quran. God sends things in fixed writing and that is quiet and sends one who is master over it and is never quiet. That is why one cannot have the Quran and NOT the ahlulbayt, you must have both; becuase the Quran can then be used As a tool for mans desires and ambitions. I.e Bible, Torah whose masters are long gone now. But a Muhammed is still here and therefore the Quran has remained undistorted 

Did i say i am questioning the master ? No it's not true.

I am not questioning Quran.

I am questioning hadith.

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1 hour ago, Raheel Yunus said:

I do not know the process of collecting Hadith.
Suppose "X" came to the Rasool (saw) with a question. "X" got the answer. After sometime "X" told "Y" what he listened. After sometime "Y" passed this information to "Z", "Z" to "A".

What is the guarantee that 
"A" knows exactly what being said to "X".

The person who is collecting hadith after many years passed, how he is sure that these are the same words  Exalted one spoke.

We do not follow any XYZ

*****

Quote

Hadith of Silsilat al-Dhahab

When Imam al-Ridha (a.s.) was leaving Nayshabur, a group of scholars of hadith, including Muhammad b. al-Rafi‘, Ahmad b. al-Harith, Yahya b. al-Yahya, and Ishaq b. al-Rahuwayh held the bridle of Imam al-Ridha’s (a.s.) camel and said, “We swear you to your purified forefathers to narrate a hadith from your father to us.” It is also related in a hadith that Abu Zar‘a and Muhammad b. Aslam, both memorizers of Prophetic traditions, said to his holiness: “O noble son of the noble! O Imam Son of the Imams! O pure and praiseworthy summation of the prophets! We swear you to your purified forefathers and your noble ancestors to show us your blessed face and recite a hadith from your forefathers to us as a keepsake from you.”

At this time, the Imam’s camel halted, the curtain [of the camel litter] was pulled away and the Muslims’ eyes glistened at the sight of his blessed radiant face. The hair hanging from both sides of the Imam’s head was like those of the Prophet (S); some of the (excited) people who were standing there were crying and weeping and tearing their clothes and prostrating on the ground.

Some were kissing the bridle of his camel and others were stretching their necks to better see the face of his holiness. The people waited there until noon, as tears were rolling down their eyes like little brooks.

The dignitaries and judges shouted: ‘O people! Listen and surrender your hearts; do not disturb the Prophet (S.AW.) concerning his household. Then, while 24 thousand pens were ready to write down,

Imam al-Ridha (a.s.) said,

“I have heard my father – that competent servant of God – Musa b. Ja‘far (a.s.)

saying that he heard from his father Ja‘far b. Muhammad al-Sadiq (a.s.)

saying that he heard his father Muhammad b. ‘Ali (a.s.)

saying that he heard from his father ‘Ali b. al-Husayn (a.s.)

saying that he heard from his father al-Husayn b. ‘Ali (a.s.)

saying that he heard from his father ‘Ali b. ‘Abi Talib (a.s.

) saying that he heard from the Holy Prophet (S)

saying that he heard from Gabriel

saying that Allah told him

: ‘I am God. There is no god but Me. Worship Me then. The phrase La ilaha illa Allah is My fortress, whoever sincerely utters it, may enter My fortress, and whoever enters My fortress shall be secure from My punishment’.

When they moved on, the Imam (a.s.) said out loud: ‘There are certain conditions to this (the entrance to the fortress) and I am one of its conditions.”18

 

https://www.al-islam.org/story-sun-look-imam-al-ridha-life-sayyid-muhammad-najafi-yazdi/imam-al-ridhas-historical-emigration#hadith-silsilat-al-dhahab

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1 hour ago, Raheel Yunus said:

Did i say i am questioning the master ? No it's not true.

I am not questioning Quran.

I am questioning hadith.

You are playing a dangerous game. Questioning Hadith FROM the prophet is indeed questioning the master.

That’s the irony

if you’re unable to comprehend it’s better to not wonder or ponder or question, for your own sake

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I Agree with  @bladeknight.

To those talking about "universities" and schools to raise children.. I respond by saying when we leave those institutions we are still learning. 

Educational institutions' purpose are to provide us tools to read, understand,  interact.  The basics.  Much of material and concepts we learn as adults we are not ready for as adolescents, teenagers especially when we're impressionable and vulnerable to corruption and assumptions/hasty conclusions. 

The Quran is not something I beleive we should teach children at an early age for that reasoning. 

No one should be "muslim" because they were indoctrinated in at a young age nor because its familiar to them as a cultural icon.

If you were born anywhere else and came across the message of islam, would we come to it?

They should beleive in the message because theyve reconciled sincerely with themselves.   

The majority of people fighting islams cause were adults.  The message was given to a forty year old man, with his experiences and rationality matured

Instead being taught to freely think were imposed upon other's opinions and ideologies. Something the Quran warns us about.

It much more difficult to reason with an extremist or other deviant types who were forced garbage into their brains since childhood as opposed to those who developed  reasoning and thinking freely before coming into religion.

The quran gives no kudos to those following what their ancestors teach. But many accolades to those who hear the quran.and believe in it immediately 

 

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On 11/26/2018 at 5:05 PM, Ralvi said:

You are playing a dangerous game. Questioning Hadith FROM the prophet is indeed questioning the master.

That’s the irony

if you’re unable to comprehend it’s better to not wonder or ponder or question, for your own sake

You cant even prove it came from the Prophet.

Its more of a dangerous game to take something that men preserved and run with it like it is truth .

You and everyone else here knows nearly 95% or some exorbitantly high proportion of hadith have been graded as dubious, leaving very very few ubiquitously accepted narrations. They've been burned and destroyed  and recollected.  They have been put together, and corrupted, we all know this.   

The  quran quite literally says no falsehood can come before it, and it is the best hadith.  It says Allah has preserved it. 

Where are such guarantees about hadith which we know have been permeated by corruption? Why risk  it?

The hadith have two barriers of veracity, the first of which, is determining what says said.. Then after, the interpretation of what we think was said.  Then throw in the convolution of tracing chains of people you've never met but been taught  to assume their character.  There's no verifying whose narrative is right.

The quran.. has just one barrier and that is its interpretation since we all do not question what it says literally. 

You want to convince me that i must use something that we have to decipher the exact words and then interpret its meaning to understand a book whose meaning is the only obstacle to overcome? What sort of backwards logic is that?

You want me to beleive you because you personally were told and taught to use hadith by some people?  

Islam doesn't start with hadith it starts with the message, convince me from the  message or other divine books i need hadith to be a true muslim. That burden of proof is on you and anyone else convinced otherwise.

Ask where is Hadith of muhammad AS of the people of Ibrahim or Isa or Musa?  Where are their hadith if they had their own? Gone and lost because it wasnt preserved, history is already repeating itself and islam is becoming divided thanks to these hadith. 

How did the christians and jews pray from verse 3:113 where Allah says among them are righteous people bowing in prayer in the night? Did they pray following the hadith of muhammad AS?

Allah COMMANDS us to follow only and rule/judge by what he sends down.  Hadith is not one of them. 

The prophet obeyed the message. His hadith was quran.  

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

You cant even prove it came from the Prophet.

Its more of a dangerous game to take something that men preserved and run with it like it is truth .

You and everyone else here knows nearly 95% or some exorbitantly high proportion of hadith have been graded as dubious, leaving very very few ubiquitously accepted narrations. They've been burned and destroyed  and recollected.  They have been put together, and corrupted, we all know this.   

The  quran quite literally says no falsehood can come before it, and it is the best hadith.  It says Allah has preserved it. 

Where are such guarantees about hadith which we know have been permeated by corruption? Why risk  it?

The hadith have two barriers of veracity, the first of which, is determining what says said.. Then after, the interpretation of what we think was said.  Then throw in the convolution of tracing chains of people you've never met but been taught  to assume their character.  There's no verifying whose narrative is right.

The quran.. has just one barrier and that is its interpretation since we all do not question what it says literally. 

You want to convince me that i must use something that we have to decipher the exact words and then interpret its meaning to understand a book whose meaning is the only obstacle to overcome? What sort of backwards logic is that?

You want me to beleive you because you personally were told and taught to use hadith by some people?  

Islam doesn't start with hadith it starts with the message, convince me from the  message or other divine books i need hadith to be a true muslim. That burden of proof is on you and anyone else convinced otherwise.

Ask where is Hadith of muhammad AS of the people of Ibrahim or Isa or Musa?  Where are their hadith if they had their own? Gone and lost because it wasnt preserved, history is already repeating itself and islam is becoming divided thanks to these hadith. 

How did the christians and jews pray from verse 3:113 where Allah says among them are righteous people bowing in prayer in the night? Did they pray following the hadith of muhammad AS?

Allah COMMANDS us to follow only and rule/judge by what he sends down.  Hadith is not one of them. 

The prophet obeyed the message. His hadith was quran.  

Nobody is arguing about the Quran here, of course Quran is needed, but as the Quran states itself and the Propeht said himself, he left TWO weighty things, the Quran and his ahulbayt 

hadith gets its credibility if it’s narrated by ahlulbayt, there was no other authority and no one closer to the voice of god(the prophet) than the wali of god (imam Ali) and ahlulbayt. 

So yes Hadith is just as important, the book becomes contested without the teacher 

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58 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

the Quran states itself and the Propeht said himself, he left TWO weighty things, the Quran and his ahulbayt 

hadith gets its credibility if it’s narrated by ahlulbayt, there was no other authority and no one closer to the voice of god(the prophet) than the wali of god (imam Ali) and ahlulbayt

The quran never said anything about ahlul bayt being left for us as a guidance to being a servant of Allah, most certainly  we know what is needed to be righteous muslims from Qur'an:

لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْأَاخِرِ وَالْمَلٰٓئِكَةِ وَالْكِتٰبِ وَالنَّبِيِّۦنَ وَءَاتَى الْمَالَ عَلٰى حُبِّهِۦ ذَوِى الْقُرْبٰى وَالْيَتٰمٰى وَالْمَسٰكِينَ وَابْنَ السَّبِيلِ وَالسَّآئِلِينَ وَفِى الرِّقَابِ وَأَقَامَ الصَّلٰوةَ وَءَاتَى الزَّكٰوةَ وَالْمُوفُونَ بِعَهْدِهِمْ إِذَا عٰهَدُوا  ۖ  وَالصّٰبِرِينَ فِى الْبَأْسَآءِ وَالضَّرَّآءِ وَحِينَ الْبَأْسِ  ۗ  أُولٰٓئِكَ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا  ۖ  وَأُولٰٓئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتَّقُونَ
"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 177)

 

All you have after, is an assumed quote from the prophet about leaving "weighty things".  

You believe for certain our prophet said this.   And you believe for certain it means following ahlul bayt, who unfortunately are not around at this moment. 

Without hadith shiasm, sunnism  and any other sect crumble. 

Imam Ali's AS name is never referred to in Qur'an... and is not here to guide us presently . You say its credible if narrated by Ahlul bayt, anyone can force words in their mouth that they did not say... which has happened and many believe in it as consequence. 

Why does Allah command us to use reasoning? And were blind deaf and dumb without it?

He doesn't teach us reason necessarily in quran but he blessed us with it as an intrinsic attribute.  

Why not use it and see how hadith contradicts Qur'an ? 

Just because we may not understand quran in one moment doesn't mean we invent things and hadith to justify it.

We shouldn't pretend some scholar whose views differ with others are the end all be all.

Quran indicates that it's revelation in stages and us coming back to it facilitates us as a people to understand it after experiences.... 

Teach yourself the knowledge.  Make no assumptions and if you must then at the least understand you're using assumptions.

Hadith veracity is an assumption not an undeniable truth nor an article of faith ... based on message of quran.

If you follow it so be it you got good intentions but know you're assuming them to be true.  

Edited by wmehar2

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43 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

The quran never said anything about ahlul bayt being left for us as a guidance to being a servant of Allah, most certainly  we know what is needed to be righteous muslims from Qur'an:

لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْأَاخِرِ وَالْمَلٰٓئِكَةِ وَالْكِتٰبِ وَالنَّبِيِّۦنَ وَءَاتَى الْمَالَ عَلٰى حُبِّهِۦ ذَوِى الْقُرْبٰى وَالْيَتٰمٰى وَالْمَسٰكِينَ وَابْنَ السَّبِيلِ وَالسَّآئِلِينَ وَفِى الرِّقَابِ وَأَقَامَ الصَّلٰوةَ وَءَاتَى الزَّكٰوةَ وَالْمُوفُونَ بِعَهْدِهِمْ إِذَا عٰهَدُوا  ۖ  وَالصّٰبِرِينَ فِى الْبَأْسَآءِ وَالضَّرَّآءِ وَحِينَ الْبَأْسِ  ۗ  أُولٰٓئِكَ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا  ۖ  وَأُولٰٓئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتَّقُونَ
"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 177)

 

All you have after, is an assumed quote from the prophet about leaving "weighty things".  

You believe for certain our prophet said this.   And you believe for certain it means following ahlul bayt, who unfortunately are not around at this moment. 

Without hadith shiasm, sunnism  and any other sect crumble. 

Imam Ali's AS name is never referred to in Qur'an... and is not here to guide us presently . You say its credible if narrated by Ahlul bayt, anyone can force words in their mouth that they did not say... which has happened and many believe in it as consequence. 

Why does Allah command us to use reasoning? And were blind deaf and dumb without it?

He doesn't teach us reason necessarily in quran but he blessed us with it as an intrinsic attribute.  

Why not use it and see how hadith contradicts Qur'an ? 

Just because we may not understand quran in one moment doesn't mean we invent things and hadith to justify it.

We shouldn't pretend some scholar whose views differ with others are the end all be all.

Quran indicates that it's revelation in stages and us coming back to it facilitates us as a people to understand it after experiences.... 

Teach yourself the knowledge.  Make no assumptions and if you must then at the least understand you're using assumptions.

Hadith veracity is an assumption not an undeniable truth nor an article of faith ... based on message of quran.

If you follow it so be it you got good intentions but know you're assuming them to be true.  

Don’t lecture me on knowledge when you deny the Wilayah of Ali made obligatory upon us by Allah.

Quran didn’t say anything about ahulbayt? You want to read again? Is the Propeht not the walking talking Quran? 

like God has said-he has put a veil on some and they will never love who he loves and never accepts who he put in place himself 

Go ahead play games we all know the truth. I already see through your nonsense, 

 

Peace 

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2 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Don’t lecture me on knowledge when you deny the Wilayah of Ali made obligatory upon us by Allah.

Quran didn’t say anything about ahulbayt? You want to read again? Is the Propeht not the walking talking Quran? 

like God has said-he has put a veil on some and they will never love who he loves and never accepts who he put in place himself 

Go ahead play games we all know the truth. I already see through your nonsense, 

 

Peace 

Read my response carefully and not with emotion. 

You misread what i wrote. Quran mentions ahlul bayt once,  arguably twice. But not in the capacity as beings we must follow in all matters of religion. That is categorically false. This is what im saying.

Wilayah of Imam Ali is irrelevant. He has passed away.

 even if i beleive he should have beem the rightful successor  (which i do) how does that help anyone in terms of faith now?

Reading the quran by itself,  there is no way you can discern the doctrine or creeds of Shiasm .. no one . Even sunnism. You wont read about imams you cannot use any of the contents to deduce following ahlul bayt and their hadith.  That is a fact.  Without hadith to back it up, it crumbles .  The same goes for sunnism.

Im not saying its wrong to be sunni or shia. Im saying its wrong to think you need hadith to be a rightly guided muslim.

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Read my response carefully and not with emotion. 

You misread what i wrote. Quran mentions ahlul bayt once,  arguably twice. But not in the capacity as beings we must follow in all matters of religion. That is categorically false. This is what im saying.

Wilayah of Imam Ali is irrelevant. He has passed away.

 even if i beleive he should have beem the rightful successor  (which i do) how does that help anyone in terms of faith now?

Reading the quran by itself,  there is no way you can discern the doctrine or creeds of Shiasm .. no one . Even sunnism. You wont read about imams you cannot use any of the contents to deduce following ahlul bayt and their hadith.  That is a fact.  Without hadith to back it up, it crumbles .  The same goes for sunnism.

Im not saying its wrong to be sunni or shia. Im saying its wrong to think you need hadith to be a rightly guided muslim.

There is no need for emotion yet the Quran tells us to love Muhammed and ahl muahmmed more than ourselves.  

Thats a component that’s necessary in any argument, discussion and opinion so Iam quite rational here and not talking with emotion.

Its quite evident here that you’re the irrational one here- who are you to decide the wilayah is irreverent here? Is prophethood also irrelevant because the prophet passed away?

your argument has holes, therefore I will not even entertain it

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5 hours ago, Ralvi said:

There is no need for emotion yet the Quran tells us to love Muhammed and ahl muahmmed more than ourselves.  

If you show me where in quran it says this, ill believe you.

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5 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Its quite evident here that you’re the irrational one here- who are you to decide the wilayah is irreverent here? Is prophethood also irrelevant because the prophet passed away?

I didnt decide it, i just never read it in gods message.  Prophet hood ends with the life of the prophet, the message of god is what lives on. 

The quran says muhammad AS is naught but a messenger, nothing more. It says he is like us, you and me and knows nothing of the unseen except what Allah reveals in quran to us all. It wasn't  known to muhammad that Allah was one until revelation,  also explicit in quran . This is explicit in quran and i can show you. In quran it asks..  if prophet dies in battle do we turn heels? No because the message is the important  key not following the messenger.  You obey the messenger who obeys Allah, through the message.

My argumemt to you... seems to have holes in it because you base your beliefs assuming hadith are true.  But it is the hadith when put in front of quran... that they crumble.

It is hadith that have holes !

Take away hadith from your position and my reasoning has few if any holes. 

Provide me verses that clearly instruct us to record and follow hadith and ahlul bayt without using any tafsir or hadith,  please.  I ask this.

I dont have it all figured out but to rationalize that muslims can be rightly guided with Qur'an only is easy enough.  Gods words are not insufficient . As said in quran nothing is left out 

Edited by wmehar2

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53 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I didnt decide it, i just never read it in gods message.  Prophet hood ends with the life of the prophet, the message of god is what lives on. 

The quran says muhammad AS is naught but a messenger, nothing more. It says he is like us, you and me and knows nothing of the unseen except what Allah reveals in quran to us all. It wasn't  known to muhammad that Allah was one until revelation,  also explicit in quran . This is explicit in quran and i can show you. In quran it asks..  if prophet dies in battle do we turn heels? No because the message is the important  key not following the messenger.  You obey the messenger who obeys Allah, through the message.

My argumemt to you... seems to have holes in it because you base your beliefs assuming hadith are true.  But it is the hadith when put in front of quran... that they crumble.

It is hadith that have holes !

Take away hadith from your position and my reasoning has few if any holes. 

Provide me verses that clearly instruct us to record and follow hadith and ahlul bayt without using any tafsir or hadith,  please.  I ask this.

I dont have it all figured out but to rationalize that muslims can be rightly guided with Qur'an only is easy enough.  Gods words are not insufficient . As said in quran nothing is left out 

You may want to read Surah 33 again. The Propeht has more right over us-therefore he is NOT just like us. He is an infallible, humans are not infallible, again this is proven in Surah 33. Even Satan(the fricking devil) acknowledges this but you can’t? 

I don’t accept every Hadith, but you’re under the impression that the very idea of Hadith could be wrong. Hadith are Hadith if they have been uttered by the Propeht. Therefore it is the same as saying Allah has uttered it. It is an accepted fact that when the Propeht spoke- Allah spoke. Therefore Quran and Hadith are cumpulsory, context is everything. This is what God is telling humans, he creates things that cannot speak (the Quran) and the ones that do speak(Muhammed and ahl Muhammed saaws). YOU CANNOT have one without the other.

and just how do you maintain Gods message?without the maintainer and the authority with it?

Look at the Christians? The Jews? The one who speak for their books and maintains their books are long gone and now the religion has twisted. Without the prophets of those books- the speaker of it are gone, the religion has twisted

if you accept the former then you must accept that Islam is also twisted now becuase the Prophet has died? NO! Becuase the maintainer and the one who speaks for it are Alive! Ie the 12th imam, the Ahlulbayt! You need naatick or the one who speaks with Allahs command and truth.

Therefore Quran is enough but for humans to be guided it is NOT enough 

You cannot have one without the other

That is why your argument falls apart

Edited by Ralvi

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7 hours ago, Ralvi said:

You may want to read Surah 33 again. The Propeht has more right over us-therefore he is NOT just like us. He is an infallible, humans are not infallible, again this is proven in Surah 33. Even Satan(the fricking devil) acknowledges this but you can’t? 

I don’t accept every Hadith, but you’re under the impression that the very idea of Hadith could be wrong. Hadith are Hadith if they have been uttered by the Propeht. Therefore it is the same as saying Allah has uttered it. It is an accepted fact that when the Propeht spoke- Allah spoke. Therefore Quran and Hadith are cumpulsory, context is everything. This is what God is telling humans, he creates things that cannot speak (the Quran) and the ones that do speak(Muhammed and ahl Muhammed saaws). YOU CANNOT have one without the other.

and just how do you maintain Gods message?without the maintainer and the authority with it?

Look at the Christians? The Jews? The one who speak for their books and maintains their books are long gone and now the religion has twisted. Without the prophets of those books- the speaker of it are gone, the religion has twisted

if you accept the former then you must accept that Islam is also twisted now becuase the Prophet has died? NO! Becuase the maintainer and the one who speaks for it are Alive! Ie the 12th imam, the Ahlulbayt! You need naatick or the one who speaks with Allahs command and truth.

Therefore Quran is enough but for humans to be guided it is NOT enough 

You cannot have one without the other

That is why your argument falls apart

I disagree.

Quran 33:6 should be read carefully.

The Prophet is nearer to the believers than their selves; his wives are their mothers. Those who are bound by blood are nearer to one another in the Book of God than the believers and the emigrants; nevertheless you should act towards your friends honourably; that stands inscribed in the Book.

the whole if quran should considered as well not sections .

surah Hud ArRad, Saad, Faatir, an naaziat,  tell us Muhammad  is nothing but a messenger/warner. Two other surah  (anaam and one other)  tell us  Muhammad is not a manager over the people.

now reading 33:6 again. You realize Allah stating the prophet is nearer to us than ourselves.. his wives are mothers...  nearer to us does not force guardian ship.  Nearer to us means the prophets actions and intentions of heart are for us (after Allah).  If my friend is near to me,  he is close to me because he cares about me.  Muhammad cared about all believers more than they cared about themselves and even their own family.  

and yet believers are not closer to us than non Muslim family members!  And reagrdless we act honourable with friends. 

how Wonderful the context is put here.  Why are non Muslim family closer to us or nearer to us?? Because as family they CARE about us, a muslim doesnt necessarily do that on basis of religion . Blood does.  Allah isnt talking about muhammad having a right or authority over us, reading quran plainly you see the context clear as day.  Hes saying muhammad is family to us and loves us as do blood relations.

the context here is mutually exclusive of any sense of authority. 

the same word is used for the section of the verse referring to blood family.   "...bound by blood are Nearer to you.." 

so the message to us is treat muhammad like family as one who sacrifices for us. This message is to those alive in his time.

Muhammad in quran  is referred to as different capacities.   As a man,  a husband,  a messenger  and so on.  When Muhammad delivers the message,  he is infallible in regards to delivering the message .

However outside that role he isn't a messenger.  That does not mean every word that comes out of his mouth is gods words . Thats a HUGE distinction. If that were the case, Allah would have protected those words from corruption. They would not have been the subject of controversy for us Muslims. 

He is chastised outside of this role and asks for forgiveness according to quran,  other prophets as well.   An infallible role model in all capacities is not an ideal role model for fallible human beings.   A fallible role model who corrects his mistakes and asks for forgiveness since humans are not perfect, is the ideal role model.  We cannot emulate perfection .

Reading quran you would know Allah maintains and preserves, the message. Not us. No human may take credit for it.

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُۥ لَحٰفِظُونَ
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian."
(QS. Al-Hijr 15: Verse 9)

Yea look at the Jewish and Christian books, the bible is just hadith of Jesus  splattered after the core book ....  contradicting it ... hadith according to paul, peter, matthew.. some calling him son of god...others never uttering that phrase  ....  proves my point. 

Im sorry i cant accept contradiction  that quran is enough but not enough. I dont see a 12th imam here helping us out either.

Or the contradiction you said that you dont accept every hadith... but its uttered by prophet then hadith are hadith...you cant prove them.

Well we can sit and disprove most of them through putting it to quran.

Edited by wmehar2

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7 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I disagree.

Quran 33:6 should be read carefully.

The Prophet is nearer to the believers than their selves; his wives are their mothers. Those who are bound by blood are nearer to one another in the Book of God than the believers and the emigrants; nevertheless you should act towards your friends honourably; that stands inscribed in the Book.

the whole if quran should considered as well not sections .

surah Hud ArRad, Saad, Faatir, an naaziat,  tell us Muhammad  is nothing but a messenger/warner. Two other surah  (anaam and one other)  tell us  Muhammad is not a manager over the people.

now reading 33:6 again. You realize Allah stating the prophet is nearer to us than ourselves.. his wives are mothers...  nearer to us does not force guardian ship.  Nearer to us means the prophets actions and intentions of heart are for us (after Allah).  If my friend is near to me,  he is close to me because he cares about me.  Muhammad cared about all believers more than they cared about themselves and even their own family.  

and yet believers are not closer to us than non Muslim family members!  And reagrdless we act honourable with friends. 

how Wonderful the context is put here.  Why are non Muslim family closer to us or nearer to us?? Because as family they CARE about us, a muslim doesnt necessarily do that on basis of religion . Blood does.  Allah isnt talking about muhammad having a right or authority over us, reading quran plainly you see the context clear as day.  Hes saying muhammad is family to us and loves us as do blood relations.

the context here is mutually exclusive of any sense of authority. 

the same word is used for the section of the verse referring to blood family.   "...bound by blood are Nearer to you.." 

so the message to us is treat muhammad like family as one who sacrifices for us. This message is to those alive in his time.

Muhammad in quran  is referred to as different capacities.   As a man,  a husband,  a messenger  and so on.  When Muhammad delivers the message,  he is infallible in regards to delivering the message .

However outside that role he isn't a messenger.  That does not mean every word that comes out of his mouth is gods words . Thats a HUGE distinction. If that were the case, Allah would have protected those words from corruption. They would not have been the subject of controversy for us Muslims. 

He is chastised outside of this role and asks for forgiveness according to quran,  other prophets as well.   An infallible role model in all capacities is not an ideal role model for fallible human beings.   A fallible role model who corrects his mistakes and asks for forgiveness since humans are not perfect, is the ideal role model.  We cannot emulate perfection .

Reading quran you would know Allah maintains and preserves, the message. Not us. No human may take credit for it.

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُۥ لَحٰفِظُونَ
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian."
(QS. Al-Hijr 15: Verse 9)

Yea look at the Jewish and Christian books, the bible is just hadith of Jesus  splattered after the core book ....  contradicting it ... hadith according to paul, peter, matthew.. some calling him son of god...others never uttering that phrase  ....  proves my point. 

Im sorry i cant accept contradiction  that quran is enough but not enough. I dont see a 12th imam here helping us out either.

Or the contradiction you said that you dont accept every hadith... but its uttered by prophet then hadith are hadith...you cant prove them.

Well we can sit and disprove most of them through putting it to quran.

We will not agree on this unfortunately

And I do not agree to YOUR interpretation of the Quran, for me the prophets word and the ahlulbayt clarification are more credible and with authority , Without them there would be endless debate on what each Surah meant and the religion would in fact not be for all-like it states in the beginning.

my question to you. how can the Quran fall apart after the first Surah?

It cannot because Allah never contradicts 

therefore OUR (humans like you and me) interpretations need to be out of it- and how do you do that? Without an appointed speaker for it? Ah yes you NEED one who speaks and is authority over it, you can’t keep things pure without a purified one(ie Muhammed and ahl Muhammed saaws)

so again your argument falls apart

i cannot deny the infallibility of prophet Muhammed or any Propeht for that matter, if I did Islam would be like any other religion and not the right one 

so do with that what you will

Edited by Ralvi

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5 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Without them there would be endless debate on what each Surah meant and the religion would in fact not be for all-like it states in the beginning.

We'll have to agree to disagree but ponder this statement you made.

Endless debate,  reflection , insightful  conversation of the meaning of God's words...as opposed to forced interpretations... is not so bad. Free thinking world without religion police or hardline faux Shariah police pretending to know religion and scaring people.. among within shiasm, sunnism  scholars debate each other still.

We already have endless debates about hadith and whose version is right, not really the meaning of Quran. But we hate and judge the other for it because were so convinced were right. Its wrong man.  I can't see true islam there.

Edited by wmehar2

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17 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree but ponder this statement you made.

Endless debate,  reflection , insightful  conversation of the meaning of God's words...as opposed to forced interpretations... is not so bad. Free thinking world without religion police or hardline faux Shariah police pretending to know religion and scaring people.. among within shiasm, sunnism  scholars debate each other still.

We already have endless debates about hadith and whose version is right, not really the meaning of Quran. But we hate and judge the other for it because were so convinced were right. Its wrong man.  I can't see true islam there.

Nobody is hating anyone here, were just discussing

Speaking  truth is not hate

and what may sound good for you may not be good at all. That is what Allah has decreed.

What do you mean by ‘forced’ interpretation? seems like an excuse not to follow something that’s inconvenient and stops them from getting away with things

truth or religion are not about convenience, calling it ‘forced’ Doesn't make it any less true

nothing is wrong with debate, but a lot of the time people like to keep their opinion and not be open to actual guidance at all

but I stand strong in that it’s not good to bring our interpretations to the religion of God becauss it then becomes an excuse for bad behavior and wish fulfillment 

ie the terrorists of today 

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49 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

but I stand strong in that it’s not good to bring our interpretations to the religion of God becauss it then becomes an excuse for bad behavior and wish fulfillment 

ie the terrorists of today 

Terrorists of today are the byproduct of hadeeth.

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3 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Nobody is hating anyone here, were just discussing

Speaking  truth is not hate

and what may sound good for you may not be good at all. That is what Allah has decreed.

What do you mean by ‘forced’ interpretation? seems like an excuse not to follow something that’s inconvenient and stops them from getting away with things

truth or religion are not about convenience, calling it ‘forced’ Doesn't make it any less true

nothing is wrong with debate, but a lot of the time people like to keep their opinion and not be open to actual guidance at all

but I stand strong in that it’s not good to bring our interpretations to the religion of God becauss it then becomes an excuse for bad behavior and wish fulfillment 

ie the terrorists of today 

Lets not kid ourselves.   Forced means we're taught our version or sect of islam growing up if were not already indoctrinated by what imams and scholars say ..... typically because we're enamoured by the status and attention and veracity our peers ascribe them. 

This goes for you and me.  We  are born into muslim families and most likely  (not talking about exceptions) follow their sect.   How does that make us inclined towards truth?

Are we too afraid of "falling to shaytan" for considering the fact what were taught could be wrong? To be open minded? Or is shaytan tricking us to think narrowmindedly and not question ourselves?

Thats the majority of people...following the path their parents or community follow.  Few ever think to question and leave it.

  We justify and convince ourselves the align our adult minds that our parents and community are good people and what they taught us to make us belong is correct.

If we were born in Texas  or brazil or israel to a non Muslim family,  how likely are we to come to islam?

We owe it to oursleves to question and seek truth even if were afraid it may go against everything we were taught to believe.  

Take religion out of the equation, self reflection and questioning  yourself is the only way you're going to change as a person if you're known to backbite, lie,  betray or be inconsiderate.   Yet are we ever encouraged to do so with religion ?

Speaking truth isnt hate, but speaking things as though they're truth when its just something you believe is DIFFERENT.  Everyone has differet truths and that's where our major conflicts derive from and why we fight amongst ourselves.   We have feelings of distrust..oh hes sunni i should be careful around him..or hes a shia or jew "queue  propaganda were fed to be apprehensive or make hasty assumptions of their character":

Its all BS man.  Those who know and feel the truth, wouldn't be this way towards one another.

That kind of Islam is beyond all this "im a true follower of islam because i follow abu bakr or Imam Ali " stuff. 

Just as when you told me "Allah will close mind and hearts to some" you gone ahead and did that same BS people do. 

That garbage hurts people and doesnt lend you credit to having a spirited debate or conversation and represent the ideals you fiercely assert to me that you follow.

 

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Lets not kid ourselves.   Forced means we're taught our version or sect of islam growing up if were not already indoctrinated by what imams and scholars say ..... typically because we're enamoured by the status and attention and veracity our peers ascribe them. 

This goes for you and me.  We  are born into muslim families and most likely  (not talking about exceptions) follow their sect.   How does that make us inclined towards truth?

Are we too afraid of "falling to shaytan" for considering the fact what were taught could be wrong? To be open minded? Or is shaytan tricking us to think narrowmindedly and not question ourselves?

Thats the majority of people...following the path their parents or community follow.  Few ever think to question and leave it.

  We justify and convince ourselves the align our adult minds that our parents and community are good people and what they taught us to make us belong is correct.

If we were born in Texas  or brazil or israel to a non Muslim family,  how likely are we to come to islam?

We owe it to oursleves to question and seek truth even if were afraid it may go against everything we were taught to believe.  

Take religion out of the equation, self reflection and questioning  yourself is the only way you're going to change as a person if you're known to backbite, lie,  betray or be inconsiderate.   Yet are we ever encouraged to do so with religion ?

Speaking truth isnt hate, but speaking things as though they're truth when its just something you believe is DIFFERENT.  Everyone has differet truths and that's where our major conflicts derive from and why we fight amongst ourselves.   We have feelings of distrust..oh hes sunni i should be careful around him..or hes a shia or jew "queue  propaganda were fed to be apprehensive or make hasty assumptions of their character":

Its all BS man.  Those who know and feel the truth, wouldn't be this way towards one another.

That kind of Islam is beyond all this "im a true follower of islam because i follow abu bakr or Imam Ali " stuff. 

Just as when you told me "Allah will close mind and hearts to some" you gone ahead and did that same BS people do. 

That garbage hurts people and doesnt lend you credit to having a spirited debate or conversation and represent the ideals you fiercely assert to me that you follow.

 

Bro then you should have a problem with Islam too? It teaches and forces us the reality that God created. People danced, committed sin after sin but once Islam came they couldn’t by law do any of these things, if this is not force than what is? My question to you is-religion enforces and that’s tantamount, why do you talk about ‘unfair’ force but then talk about religion, many argue that religion is unfair too

its very contradictory for you to bring this up together

and no we don’t owe anything to ourselves, Allah GUIDES WHO HE WISHES, if you’re on the true path it’s thanks to Allah meaning that you’re not the sole reason for this and there is external reasons, that’s why when you pray you call out to the rasool and his wali, you cannot pray without even mentioning this. Aren’t they who taught us Islam? By your logic we shouldn’t even be accepting them because we are being ‘indoctrinated’

you're on a slippery slope and will fall into paradox with thinking like this, I really hope you don’t continue with thinking like this-it brings you no benefit because as far as I can see you’ll be even questioning following the Propeht even especially since you say he is like us, thereby stripping him of the authority God himself gave him

my sincere advice is to avoid this kind of thinking 

and I also advise you not to accuse me of those things, I didn’t do that to you so please don’t do that to me. Were two unknowns on the internet

Iam allowed to be passionate and express my opinions, but that’s different than accusing people of things and being hateful

openmindendess is one thing and complete ignorance and avoidence of the truth is another 

Edited by Ralvi

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Lets not kid ourselves.   Forced means we're taught our version or sect of islam growing up if were not already indoctrinated by what imams and scholars say ..... typically because we're enamoured by the status and attention and veracity our peers ascribe them. 

This goes for you and me.  We  are born into muslim families and most likely  (not talking about exceptions) follow their sect.   How does that make us inclined towards truth?

Are we too afraid of "falling to shaytan" for considering the fact what were taught could be wrong? To be open minded? Or is shaytan tricking us to think narrowmindedly and not question ourselves?

Thats the majority of people...following the path their parents or community follow.  Few ever think to question and leave it.

  We justify and convince ourselves the align our adult minds that our parents and community are good people and what they taught us to make us belong is correct.

If we were born in Texas  or brazil or israel to a non Muslim family,  how likely are we to come to islam?

We owe it to oursleves to question and seek truth even if were afraid it may go against everything we were taught to believe.  

Take religion out of the equation, self reflection and questioning  yourself is the only way you're going to change as a person if you're known to backbite, lie,  betray or be inconsiderate.   Yet are we ever encouraged to do so with religion ?

Speaking truth isnt hate, but speaking things as though they're truth when its just something you believe is DIFFERENT.  Everyone has differet truths and that's where our major conflicts derive from and why we fight amongst ourselves.   We have feelings of distrust..oh hes sunni i should be careful around him..or hes a shia or jew "queue  propaganda were fed to be apprehensive or make hasty assumptions of their character":

Its all BS man.  Those who know and feel the truth, wouldn't be this way towards one another.

That kind of Islam is beyond all this "im a true follower of islam because i follow abu bakr or Imam Ali " stuff. 

Just as when you told me "Allah will close mind and hearts to some" you gone ahead and did that same BS people do. 

That garbage hurts people and doesnt lend you credit to having a spirited debate or conversation and represent the ideals you fiercely assert to me that you follow.

 

I agree.

 

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Thats the majority of people...following the path their parents or community follow.  Few ever think to question and leave it.

  We justify and convince ourselves the align our adult minds that our parents and community are good people and what they taught us to make us belong is correct

True.

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