Men Superior to Women?

[Shaheen]

I had this debate with a 'so-called Muslim girl' (as she put it) about why she has doubts about Islam. I had no problem refuting her points, but the one issue that was a source of contention was the status of Islam. Furthermore, the enemies of Islam constantly complain that Islam is oppressive towards women. Some of them cite various hadiths, some of which seems to support this view. Personally I have seen many Muslims men (some on this site) which claim that me are in fact 'superior' to women. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this issue.

My opinion males and females have there advantages and disadvantages, but overall the two they are equivalent. Equivalent is different from the same, and I think both sides should have some different but equivalent rights. I do not believe in the hadiths in which claim that most people in hell are women, because it seems illogical. So if your born a different gender your more prone to go to hell? That does not make any sense to me.

Brothers, sisters, opinions?

[Shia96c]

Well what does the holy Quran say about status? I personally think both men and women are equal. The only people who don't agree are the extremist like Taliban who don't allow girls to get educated. I also heard that girls argent allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia?

Edited July 30, 2009 by Shia96c

[Ali Zara]

I had this debate with a 'so-called Muslim girl' (as she put it) about why she has doubts about Islam. I had no problem refuting her points, but the one issue that was a source of contention was the status of Islam. Furthermore, the enemies of Islam constantly complain that Islam is oppressive towards women. Some of them cite various hadiths, some of which seems to support this view. Personally I have seen many Muslims men (some on this site) which claim that me are in fact 'superior' to women. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this issue.

My opinion males and females have there advantages and disadvantages, but overall the two they are equivalent. Equivalent is different from the same, and I think both sides should have some different but equivalent rights. I do not believe in the hadiths in which claim that most people in hell are women, because it seems illogical. So if your born a different gender your more prone to go to hell? That does not make any sense to me.

Brothers, sisters, opinions?

(bismillah) Salaam, I dont know what hadith's u r talking about. But maybe it's true. Plz provide more information. Wassalaam

[shiasoldier786]

There is equality, but both genders have their own responsibilities and priorities...

[Akbar673]

I had this debate with a 'so-called Muslim girl' (as she put it) about why she has doubts about Islam. I had no problem refuting her points, but the one issue that was a source of contention was the status of Islam. Furthermore, the enemies of Islam constantly complain that Islam is oppressive towards women. Some of them cite various hadiths, some of which seems to support this view. Personally I have seen many Muslims men (some on this site) which claim that me are in fact 'superior' to women. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this issue.

My opinion males and females have there advantages and disadvantages, but overall the two they are equivalent. Equivalent is different from the same, and I think both sides should have some different but equivalent rights. I do not believe in the hadiths in which claim that most people in hell are women, because it seems illogical. So if your born a different gender your more prone to go to hell? That does not make any sense to me.

Brothers, sisters, opinions?

Allah, in his infinite wisdom, made both men and women equals yet different. Men are not superior to women. The difference, and what has led to the confusion, lies in the fact that Allah created both to be different. There are obviously certain things that a man can do that a woman can not and on the opposite there are things which a woman can do that a man can not.

My point is that both men and women are equal but different in what Allah has assigned as their roles in the bigger picture.

[Trumpet]

^Yeah, that's true they aren't allowed to drive..

I had this debate with a 'so-called Muslim girl' (as she put it) about why she has doubts about Islam. I had no problem refuting her points, but the one issue that was a source of contention was the status of Islam. Furthermore, the enemies of Islam constantly complain that Islam is oppressive towards women. Some of them cite various hadiths, some of which seems to support this view. Personally I have seen many Muslims men (some on this site) which claim that me are in fact 'superior' to women. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this issue.

My opinion males and females have there advantages and disadvantages, but overall the two they are equivalent. Equivalent is different from the same, and I think both sides should have some different but equivalent rights. I do not believe in the hadiths in which claim that most people in hell are women, because it seems illogical. So if your born a different gender your more prone to go to hell? That does not make any sense to me.

Brothers, sisters, opinions?

Well, I believe the reason for that is because most backbite 24/7.

[Basim Ali]

(bismillah)

(salam),

@ Shia9c

Yes they aren't allowed to drive here in KSA. Though they do go around in taxis. Good too, because women here wear veils (naqaab), they wouldn't be able to see anything, especially at night. Their fathers/husbands, forbid them to go around outside without veils.

@ Shaheen

Women are NOT equal to men (in religious matter) and I'm not an extremist Taliban. :)

Women have three deficiencies, in religous matters, not according to ME but according to Imam Ali (as) :

' O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith, deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith, it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils. ' Nahjul Balagha, SERMON - 80

http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/ (refer to SERMON - 80)

I hope your question is answered, IF you believe in the truth of Peak of Eloquence. :)

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

[shiapride]

It depends on how much people know about islam i mean if they lack knowledge about islam than of course they will think that men are supirior to women.....which is not true beacuse muslim women have more right than women in other religons

[OneNoteSong]

I had this debate with a 'so-called Muslim girl' (as she put it) about why she has doubts about Islam. I had no problem refuting her points, but the one issue that was a source of contention was the status of Islam. Furthermore, the enemies of Islam constantly complain that Islam is oppressive towards women. Some of them cite various hadiths, some of which seems to support this view. Personally I have seen many Muslims men (some on this site) which claim that me are in fact 'superior' to women. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this issue.

My opinion males and females have there advantages and disadvantages, but overall the two they are equivalent. Equivalent is different from the same, and I think both sides should have some different but equivalent rights. I do not believe in the hadiths in which claim that most people in hell are women, because it seems illogical. So if your born a different gender your more prone to go to hell? That does not make any sense to me.

Brothers, sisters, opinions?

PEOPLE are oppressive to PEOPLE. And hadiths can't be taken as 100% true. Hadiths are not given the same status as the Quran--only the Quran is 100% valid.

[SayYaAli]

If Islam were oppresive to women we would not have characters like Hazrat Fatima (as) , Hazrat Marium (as) and Hazrat Zainab (as) as role models not just for women but for women AND men.

The thing is women and men both have different responsibilities. To respect these they have both been limited in different ways, and sometimes it seems as if the wome have the more restrictions. But are they practically applicable?

Ok, yeah, a woman can't leave the house withut her husband's permission. But should the husband forbid her from going out just because he can? If a man can marry four wives, okay fine, but a woman can demand he pay her for brest feeding his children. And so on and so on until there is a balance. But its not nice to impose these things. I'm sure an ideal marriage in the sight of Allah does not include petty oppressions. So you are right, equivalent is the right word. :)

As for the hadith which say the like of what brother Basim Ali said...look at it this way. The Quran says many times things like "Most surely man is ungrateful to his Lord." But is that every person? It's a generalization about the majority and a warning about a vice a person might find himself/herself falling into if they're not careful. Similarly not every woman is necessarily evil or dumb or whatever. And some women can be better than a lot of men, even normal women not of the Ahlul Bayt. Look at Bibi Fizza (ra) . :wub:

And Allah knows best

[Maryaam]

I think using the word "equal" is too narrow and limiting to describe men and women in comaprison to each other - but - no Muslim is superior to another.

All Muslims are judged only on the basis of their faith and character, not their race, ethnicity, caste or tribe - or - gender. Women are given the same level of humanity as men..only what each does with this humanity and ability to follow Islam will give a measure of difference between them. “Whoever, be it a male or a female, does good deeds and he or she is a believer, then they will enter the Paradise.” (4:124)

Men and women have different strengths and needs and when united, complete each other. These gender strengths are not less nor greater in importance - they are different and fulfill each other.

[askari muslim]

Salam.

Here is the Quran.

"Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. "(Albaqra-228)

I believe this proof of men's superiority is enough.

[Shay]

Yes, they aren't allowed to drive here. :)

Men and women are NOT equal (in religious matter) , and I'm NOT an extremist Taliban!

Women have three deficiencies (in religious matter), NOT according to me but Imam Ali (as) :

"O people! Women suffer from three deficiencies, i.e. in religious matter, of the fact that at certain time they keep away from prayers and fastings, deficiency of mind that two female witnesses are considered equal to one male witness and deficiency in share of heritage is plain because their share is equal to half the share of the male members.

Keep yourself away from the wiles of the wicked women, and do not associate yourself too much even with good ones; do not blindly follow their advice even in good deeds; so that they may not be tempted to lead you towards bad ones." Nahjul Balagha, SERMON - 83

I hope this answers you, IF you believe in the truth of Nahjul Balagha. :) :)

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Imam Ali was talking about specific women and not all women. When will people saying stuff without researching into it and not picking and choosing :(

[BintAlHoda]

Salam.

Here is the Quran.

"Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. "(Albaqra-228)

I believe this proof of men's superiority is enough.

this is not a discussion of female nature it is about divorce and family law

[SayYaAli]

....And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. "(Albaqra-228)

Some men are superior to some women and some women are superior to some men. Not all men are superior to all women and not all women are inferior to all men.

[askari muslim]

(bismillah)

OK lets think that you are right.Now anyone on this forum can use their own intellect to understand the matter that men are superior to women(in terms of qualities,im not talking about rights) by seeing history.

First Proof(logical)

Have you ever seen in history that any women became a legendary philosopher?Socrates,Plato,Aristotle,Xenocrates were all men.Now you may say that at that time women were opressed and were not having freedom.I will say that the opression of women itself is a proof that women are mentally and physically weak.If they would have been mentally or physically strong than they would have freed themselves from men's opression.

This prooves that men are intellectually superior to women.

Second proof(Islamic)

Allah chose Hazrat Adam(a.s) as khalifa not Hazrat Hawa(a.s).And Allah has said in Quran that HE taught Hazrat Adam(a.s) the words not Hazrat Hawa(a.s) which shows that man has more intellect.No Prophet was a women.

Thus men are superior to women in terms of physical and mental strength(im not talking about rights)

Final Proof

You know that women have been oppressed from old ages not men.If women were superior to men in intellect or strength than they would have oppressed men.Opression on women is the biggest proof that they are physically and mentally weak than men.(this is also stated above)

Question for shaheen

what are you actually trying to ask?Do you want to discuss whether men are superior to women in terms of intellect and bodily power?(I have given the answer above)

Or do you want to discuss that is it true that men have more rights than women in islam?(If you are thinking about rights then its a different issue and you should know islamic fiqh to discuss this matter)

thankyou.

[chat_buddy]

Thank you for asking because this is a good one.

It's too weary for me to quote the many passages from the al-Quran but suffice for me to summarize that (had I prior to being a fetus in the womb and) had Allah SWT asked me which gender I wish to assume, I'd certainly have tossed a coin without further thinking.

Actually, the al-Quran alone is sufficient to shed light on this issue.

Besides the fact that every man and woman shall bear his/her own sins, in the sight of Allah SWT, PIETY counts above anything else. Allah SWT neither looks at the appearance of a woman or a man nor does He look at the materials that surround a woman or a man.

The pain and gain on the road to righteousness and piety are equally challenging and testing for both men and women.

Satan does not differentiate between the two genders. One woman in hell does not strike two scores on his scoreboard.

The room for forgiveness, atonement for one's sins, and make tawbah is open for both gender, and this privilege has never been skewed to one gender as against the other. Not a single verse in the al-Quran alludes to such a notion.

On pure reasoning alone, it throws off the wall the concept of 'adl had Allah SWT been biased and predisposed to favor a gender over the other; and, had Allah SWT been predisposed in such a way, then it would have been a punishment on the lesser gender before it had been born into this world.

It is equally preposterous if we have to work extra harder to cover up for this handicap having borne with, which is none of our doing in the first place.

It is a good question because if every Muslims ponders over and appreciate the issue, there will certainly be greater and heighten respect from one gender towards the other. The husband will respect his wife just as he respects himself as a man, and the wife will respect his husband just as he respects herself as a woman. Society will consequently place the right balance, importance, role and contribution that women bring to society, and not lesser expectation that we have previously presumed.

The revolution and transformation which Prophet Muhammd (SAW) has brought on the elevation of human rights with regard to women during the days of Arab paganism was sheer astounding. Islam was way advanced in her treatment towards women; unfortunately, many people do not see this fact.

Regrettably too, Muslims are perennially at fault for not implementing the rights due to women in their own societies, in favor of other cultural and tribal norms. This is sheer stupidity on the part of men because such behaviors delimits and does not liberate the true potential that women can bring to society. Definitely a good case to study is the Grameen Bank, for example.

You need not feel discouraged if you find some men feel they are superior to women. The effort that you can potentially bring to society is actually an equal share. So please don’t hoard it out of fear, intimidation, and silly norms and traditions.

[Basim Ali]

Imam Ali was talking about specific women and not all women. When will people saying stuff without researching into it and not picking and choosing :(

I'm sorry, but it is YOU who does not understand the sermon. Imam Ali (as) is talking about ALL women. Later he describes, the evil ones.

I talk about men, in general. And then I describe evil men, like Muwaiyah and Yazid. Does that make all men evil? :)

I would also like if you do not use that 'mocking tone' of yours befor you're 100% sure of anything.

What Imam Ali (as) has said, about women, is that they have 3 deficiencies in RELIGIOUS MATTERS, ONLY. They are equal to men, in all other aspects, like political, social, moral, etc.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

[ShiaBen]

Most of these fools who try to say Men oppress Women in Islam, are referring to either the

1. Hijab laws- which is created for men to respect women, and look at them as humans, not objects.

2. Polygamy- which was created for reasons to support women, if their man dies in war or prison, and they have a few kids and can't support themselves.

[Shaheen]

I have a 17 hour work day tomorrow so I'll answer those question when I am done.

[Shaheen]

Okay what I was trying convey was are men superior to women. Are women more naturally prone to sin than men? If your a woman are you more likely to go to hell (probability wise) just because your gender? These are Sunni hadiths, but I am fairly sure similar stuff can be found in Shia Hadiths as well, as that quote from Nahjul Balagha was every bit as bad. I'll look for some Shia Hadiths as well.

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (pbuh) as saying: Woman is like a rib. When you attempt to straighten it, you would break it. And if you leave her alone you would benefit by her, and crookedness will remain in her."

"Narrated Sa'd ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no hamah, no infection and no evil omen; if there is in anything an evil omen, it is a house, a horse, and a woman. (Book #29, Hadith #3911)"

"Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If one of you marries a woman or buys a slave, he should say: "O Allah, I ask Thee for the good in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her; I take refuge in Thee from the evil in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her." When he buys a camel, he should take hold of the top of its hump and say the same kind of thing. (Book #11, Hadith #2155)"

"Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) cursed the wailing woman and the woman who listens to her. (Book #20, Hadith #3122)"

"Narrated Usama: The Prophet said. "I stood at the gate of Paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women." Volume 7. Book 62. Number 124"

From the above, it seems that women are far inferior to men, at least according to the hadith. It is my opinion that this is completely illogical, and women and men are equivalent.

[kaali_daal]

(bismillah)

Final Proof

You know that women have been oppressed from old ages not men.If women were superior to men in intellect or strength than they would have oppressed men.Opression on women is the biggest proof that they are physically and mentally weak than men.(this is also stated above)

thankyou.

Asalam Alaikum Askari Muslim.

Are you telling me that men oppressing women is an intellectual strength. :!!!:

Women are physically and mentally weak. Sure its not a problem to go on a 9 month ling journey to proof Allah's beauty and than to keep the calm to raise a child peacefully. Its nothing hard to do.

If women are mentally weak than there should be a major genetic side effect brought down through the generation. The fact that women can keep their mental level firm and together after all the oppression and the mental torture of the materialistic world, oppression of men, and extremist Mullah world is only proof that Allah has made women equal in their own class and an aspect of life.

Maula Jaffer-e-Sadiq (ASWS) said:

Jo shakhs bhi Aal-e-Muhammad (ASWS) se ziyada mohabbat chahta hey, usay chahiye kay apni aurat se ziyada muhabbat karey.

Maula Jafer-e-Sadiq ASWS said:

Ziyada-ter barkatein aurat kay wajood mein samo di gai hain.

Take care.

:yaali:

Allah Hafiz.

[Basim Ali]

(bismillah)

(salam),

To further elaborate my point, I would quote 2 authentic references, which I got via the book 'Greater Sins'.

Allah, the Almighty has given men superiority over women and appointed them as the protectors of women. This is due to the fact that men have been provided by Allah (S.w.T.) with many qualities in great measure as compared to women, like strength, bravery etc. Further they spend their wealth upon their women. So the best women are those who are loyal to their husbands and obedient to their commands. They protect his property and their own chastity in the absence of their husbands. The Holy Prophet (S) has also said,

“Prostration of a human for another human being is not permitted. (If it had been) I would have ordered the wife to prostrate before her husband.”

(Wasa’il ul-Shia)

The Quran too says:

“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:34)

Men are hence, the maintainers, and women, the maintained. The superior maintains the inferior, always, just like Allah mantains us.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

[Basim Ali]

Okay what I was trying convey was are men superior to women. Are women more naturally prone to sin than men? If your a woman are you more likely to go to hell (probability wise) just because your gender? These are Sunni hadiths, but I am fairly sure similar stuff can be found in Shia Hadiths as well, as that quote from Nahjul Balagha was every bit as bad. I'll look for some Shia Hadiths as well.

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (pbuh) as saying: Woman is like a rib. When you attempt to straighten it, you would break it. And if you leave her alone you would benefit by her, and crookedness will remain in her."

"Narrated Sa'd ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no hamah, no infection and no evil omen; if there is in anything an evil omen, it is a house, a horse, and a woman. (Book #29, Hadith #3911)"

"Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If one of you marries a woman or buys a slave, he should say: "O Allah, I ask Thee for the good in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her; I take refuge in Thee from the evil in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her." When he buys a camel, he should take hold of the top of its hump and say the same kind of thing. (Book #11, Hadith #2155)"

"Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) cursed the wailing woman and the woman who listens to her. (Book #20, Hadith #3122)"

"Narrated Usama: The Prophet said. "I stood at the gate of Paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women." Volume 7. Book 62. Number 124"

From the above, it seems that women are far inferior to men, at least according to the hadith. It is my opinion that this is completely illogical, and women and men are equivalent.

You have quoted ahadith from Sunni sources, and moreover (to make it worse :dry: ) from Abu Huraira. Women here, forbid their children to go to Friday sermons to some mosques, where the Katib quotes ahadith from Abu Huraira. The women, reason (and rightly too!) that if their children listen to Abu Huraira's traditions, they will not respect women. This is clearly evident from the above ahadith.

Please note that the sermon I quoted from Nahjul Balagha, only showed women inferior to men, in religious matter. Atleast, it did not relate women to horses and crooked ribs!

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

[Mystic]

(bismillah)

OK lets think that you are right.Now anyone on this forum can use their own intellect to understand the matter that men are superior to women(in terms of qualities,im not talking about rights) by seeing history.

First Proof(logical)

Have you ever seen in history that any women became a legendary philosopher?Socrates,Plato,Aristotle,Xenocrates were all men.Now you may say that at that time women were opressed and were not having freedom.I will say that the opression of women itself is a proof that women are mentally and physically weak.If they would have been mentally or physically strong than they would have freed themselves from men's opression.

This prooves that men are intellectually superior to women.

Even though I am not Muslim, I would like a chance to address this:

Your reasoning is correct when you say that you don't see women philosophers in history because woman were held back especially in terms of schooling. But then you say that the oppression of women itself shows the weak nature of the female. If so, you say, they would have "freed themselves from men's opression". I believe there is are some important facts that you are not taking into consideration.

First, that men like to oppress (I'm speaking in generalities here) and they will oppress other men as well if given the opportunity. It's not just about men oppressing women, but about men oppressing men, women and children. And of course women and children are easier targets. Children because they are not fully cooked; they are small, weak and not mentally developed. Women because of the sacred burden of childbirth.

Women are just as strong as men in mental capacities when given the same schooling and regarding physical strength, are actually equal to men (in different ways). Can most men beat most women in a prize fight? Most certainly. Men have greater upper body strength, bigger muscles, better cardiovascular, ect. But did you know that most women have stronger upper leg strength then men? Women can also endure more then men, not limited to, but including, pain.

Besides, in today's world, more often then not, physical strength is not the determining factor in supremacy. Brains, schooling and luck of birthplace (which translates to money) more often determines power.

And here is the crux of my argument: The reason men have been able to oppress women for all this time, despite seemingly equal advantages is because women spend their strength in the carrying for nine months, delivering and then feeding and caring of children. It is because we spend our strength in creating the next generation. Once a woman is expecting or a mother, it is this that makes her vulnerable. That is why we turn to men as our protecters, for motherhood is our great gift and our great burden.

Some men take on this sacred task as protecter of their equal partner; their other half that will spend her strength in the producing of their future....some use this vulnerability as a chance to oppress.

Second proof(Islamic)

Allah chose Hazrat Adam(a.s) as khalifa not Hazrat Hawa(a.s).And Allah has said in Quran that HE taught Hazrat Adam(a.s) the words not Hazrat Hawa(a.s) which shows that man has more intellect.No Prophet was a women.

Thus men are superior to women in terms of physical and mental strength(im not talking about rights)

I'm not Muslim, so I'm not going to touch this one. It would not be productive. Not that I would say something offensive, just that I am not as learned in Islam as you and therefore are at a disadvantage. I'm glad that you say that rights for each gender are equal.

Final Proof

You know that women have been oppressed from old ages not men.If women were superior to men in intellect or strength than they would have oppressed men.Opression on women is the biggest proof that they are physically and mentally weak than men.(this is also stated above)

Question for shaheen

what are you actually trying to ask?Do you want to discuss whether men are superior to women in terms of intellect and bodily power?(I have given the answer above)

Or do you want to discuss that is it true that men have more rights than women in islam?(If you are thinking about rights then its a different issue and you should know islamic fiqh to discuss this matter)

thankyou.

This I feel I can address, even with my limited knowledge of Islam. Forgive me if something I say is incorrect. To my understanding, women and men share the same burden, rewards or punishment. This would mean that Allah expects the same level of achievement from both...despite having given greater advantage to one and a handicap to the other? I cannot see this as being true, for is not Allah just? Justice is a primary hallmark of the Creator.

And I also do not agree that Islam gives more rights to the man. Within the framework of the family, men are proscribed as protectors and maintainers and women give up some of their rights to their husband in return for protection and maintenance. Men carry the burden of the family, being the only one responsible for material maintenance. This right to be protected and cared for I see as a great advantage for women. It is meant to deal with the issue I outlined above; with the vulnerability of women as a result of childbearing and being the primary caretaker.

In regards to seemingly inequal treatment of women in Islam regarding inheritance, testimony, ect....that is a long discussion and I believe there are extenuating circumstances for each one (for example: greater inheritance being given because of responsibility of maintenance) and greater understanding of Islam leads to greater understanding of apparent inequalities.

Thank you for your time.

[kaali_daal]

I'm sorry, but it is YOU who does not understand the sermon. Imam Ali (as) is talking about ALL women. Later he describes, the evil ones.

I talk about men, in general. And then I describe evil men, like Muwaiyah and Yazid. Does that make all men evil? :)

I would also like if you do not use that 'mocking tone' of yours befor you're 100% sure of anything.

What Imam Ali (as) has said, about women, is that they have 3 deficiencies in RELIGIOUS MATTERS, ONLY. They are equal to men, in all other aspects, like political, social, moral, etc.

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

Asalam Alaikum Jafri bhai. I have to agree with Shay in this regards. I did speak to Moulana Syed R. Naqvi of Washington D.C. here and he did tell me that this was a time when Imam Ali(A.S) was giving advice to a person about their wife. The person was smart enough to announce it to people to whom this did not pertain to.

I do get your point that it is only in the sense of religon but Moulana Sahab said that he could not say that for women because he had married Prophet Mohammad(PBUH)'s daughter and he could not relate that to her because she is the leader of the women.

I hope this helps. I am not trying to purposely go against you. Just stating what I have in this matter. Hopefully this will calm down the modds and prevent any mocking tones in the future.

Take care.

:yaali:

Allah Hafiz.

[askari muslim]

Even though I am not Muslim, I would like a chance to address this:

Your reasoning is correct when you say that you don't see women philosophers in history because woman were held back especially in terms of schooling. But then you say that the oppression of women itself shows the weak nature of the female. If so, you say, they would have "freed themselves from men's opression". I believe there is are some important facts that you are not taking into consideration.

First, that men like to oppress (I'm speaking in generalities here) and they will oppress other men as well if given the opportunity. It's not just about men oppressing women, but about men oppressing men, women and children. And of course women and children are easier targets. Children because they are not fully cooked; they are small, weak and not mentally developed. Women because of the sacred burden of childbirth.

Women are just as strong as men in mental capacities when given the same schooling and regarding physical strength, are actually equal to men (in different ways). Can most men beat most women in a prize fight? Most certainly. Men have greater upper body strength, bigger muscles, better cardiovascular, ect. But did you know that most women have stronger upper leg strength then men? Women can also endure more then men, not limited to, but including, pain.

Besides, in today's world, more often then not, physical strength is not the determining factor in supremacy. Brains, schooling and luck of birthplace (which translates to money) more often determines power.

And here is the crux of my argument: The reason men have been able to oppress women for all this time, despite seemingly equal advantages is because women spend their strength in the carrying for nine months, delivering and then feeding and caring of children. It is because we spend our strength in creating the next generation. Once a woman is expecting or a mother, it is this that makes her vulnerable. That is why we turn to men as our protecters, for motherhood is our great gift and our great burden.

Some men take on this sacred task as protecter of their equal partner; their other half that will spend her strength in the producing of their future....some use this vulnerability as a chance to oppress.

You have made nice deliberations on the issue but there are some points i think i can discuss.

schooling and education does not create wisdom here we are arguing that men are wiser than women.Can you let me know that Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Jesus Christ or Muhammad (pbuh),Julius caesar have been graduated from any school or university. My friend many of the above great personalities were deprived of their parents in their early childhood.

You have very well given the scientific physical comparison of women and men but my friend, perhaps, you have missed the factual comparison in your arguments. Thousands of years have gone that the men are women are living on the earth together but even you cannot name the 10% women (of the men) those have shown physical supermacy over men. Are all women in the world are married or give birth to child or bring up the child? Can you let me know how many women who have not taken up these natural/society responsibilities have rose up to the level of men? Please take into consideration the performance of women particularly in the physical power games you will definitely see the difference of their performance with men. It is not just the difference of training and practice. It is factually matter of power that creates the difference.

your conclusion itself shows that men are oppressive by nature but please note that they are not oppressive by chance.and I will conclude that the natural thing that makes one to rule over others is the combination of two powers i.e. physical and mental. The weaker will psychologically accept the supermacy of the stronger rather they themselves may in many circumstances invite the stronger to rule them so that they may feel secure.

Thankyou.

[Basim Ali]

Asalam Alaikum Jafri bhai. I have to agree with Shay in this regards. I did speak to Moulana Syed R. Naqvi of Washington D.C. here and he did tell me that this was a time when Imam Ali(A.S) was giving advice to a person about their wife. The person was smart enough to announce it to people to whom this did not pertain to.

I do get your point that it is only in the sense of religon but Moulana Sahab said that he could not say that for women because he had married Prophet Mohammad(PBUH)'s daughter and he could not relate that to her because she is the leader of the women.

I hope this helps. I am not trying to purposely go against you. Just stating what I have in this matter. Hopefully this will calm down the modds and prevent any mocking tones in the future.

Take care.

:yaali:

Allah Hafiz.

(salam),

I understand dal, what you mean to convey and I did not mean to incluse Bibi Fatimah (as) in what I quoted. Bibi Fatima (as) is a Ma'sum, and hence, Infallible. applying the tradition to her would be disbelief in the fact that she is an Infallible. Infact, the fact that she is the leader of the women of Jannah makes it clear that she is superior to all women. This ability, of not being like any normal woman, of not being inferior to men in religious matter like other women, is what makes her superior to other women!

Please ponder over the following tradition and tell me whether you think, what an elevated position husbands have, and whether they are superior to women or not:

"Prostration of a human for another human being is not permitted. (If it had been) I would have ordered the wife to prostrate before her husband.”

(Wasa’il ul-Shia)

(wasalam)

Basim Ali Jafri

[kaali_daal]

Asalam Alaikum Basim bhai.

I see your point. I guess this is one of those debates where people have their opinions and a line must be drawn.

InshAllah there will be an understanding.

Take care.

:yaali:

Allah Hafiz.

[lion]

no where in the quran nor any hadith is men said to be 'superior' , though he is classified to have the lead role(as much of the animals on this planet) , both sexes have attributes that they are dominate in. this is an old case of misunderstanding.

Furthermore, as far as women being more prone than men to commiting evil, that could be seriously debated, as one could cite many good women that do well in comparison to their male counterparts in society. Both sexes have the ability to identify right and right and act accordingly.

wasalam

[saheb]

'Equivalent' is the correct word and not 'Same'

Women have been favoured by Allah.

Bibi Fatema was refered to as central point when Allah refered to the panjatan.(hadise-kisa)

Women are not obligated to earn the living. It is the men's duty to earn for the family. Although some women fools do earn just for the sake of being referred to as educated, westernized or free woman.

Women are not obligated to give birth or to do household chores or to breast feed baby. They can do this out of free will to earn God's blessing.

The only obligation they have to do is to give their husband conjugal rights which is fun for them too! And in return they get all expenses paid, place to stay,luxaries and security.

Woman do not pray during their menstrual period. And they are not answerable for it!

Women get a big portion of will (money, estate) from their father and husband. Men get it from their father only.

Women are under protection from their father before marriage, husband after marriage, and children after the death of the husband. Men have to protect their sisters, wife and daughters.

When a woman earns it is her money to keep. Man has to earn for the family

[husseintop]

It depends on how much people know about islam i mean if they lack knowledge about islam than of course they will think that men are supirior to women.....which is not true beacuse muslim women have more right than women in other religons

Do you know enough about other religions/beliefs to know that Muslim women have more rights? Other than that there is no logic in what you say here. Cows have more rights in the Hindu religion than any other. Does that then mean that men are not superior to cows?

I know enough about Islam to know that it is a patriarchal religion where men are considered by nature to be superior to women and where it is considered in the natural order for them to be ruled over by them.

[husseintop]

Allah, in his infinite wisdom, made both men and women equals yet different. Men are not superior to women. The difference, and what has led to the confusion, lies in the fact that Allah created both to be different. There are obviously certain things that a man can do that a woman can not and on the opposite there are things which a woman can do that a man can not.

My point is that both men and women are equal but different in what Allah has assigned as their roles in the bigger picture.

Which certain things? What can all women do that no man can do and vica versa?

[husseintop]

(bismillah)

...

... Have you ever seen in history that any women became a legendary philosopher?Socrates,Plato,Aristotle,Xenocrates were all men. ...

.... No Prophet was a women. ...

Yes, Aristoclea of Delphi who was Pythagoras's teacher and Arete of Cyrene, the author of many books and whose father was taught by Socrates.

There were women prophets, Miriam, Deborah, Hulda etc. mentioned in the Bible:

"And Miriam the prophet, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances."

Exodus 15:20

"Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, she judged Israel at that time."

Judges 4:4

"So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asaiah, went unto Huldah the prophet, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the second quarter); and they communed with her."

2 Kings 22:14

[AbdullaQ]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Allah makes it clear: No one is better (more superior) than anyone else EXCEPT by Taqwa (Fear and Remembrance of Allah).

Who does what job, and which jobs are better, are all a matter of perspective.

I am a male, I think the job of a Mother is more Honorable than any job a man can do except maybe Jihad in the Path of Allah. Is there anything better than to be told that Jannah is under your feet? (Hadith: Jannah is under the feet of mothers).

Also, women can easily go to heaven. Giving Birth = forgiveness of all sins. How cool is that? For getting something SOOOOO special (a child) you also get all your sins forgiven. Did I forget to mention that a woman gets HALF any good deed her husband does? Women have it good!

Men can fight for the sake of Allah and go immediately to heaven. Awesome!

Both really have it good.