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In the Name of God بسم الله

This Hadith from Sahih Bukhari

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(salam)

Sunni hadiths often stand against them in several things. And this does bother many of them. When you post hadiths from their books, they just ignore the hadiths and attack you! So, I expect that kind of reaction in this thread too. However, the issue here is much more serious than most others. It is about whether the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is indeed the best of creation as most Muslims claim today. Of course, to us Shi'as, there is no doubt that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is the BEST OF CREATION. Many Sunnis also make a similar claim, except that Sahih al-Bukhari has done it again!

Narrated Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "None has the right to say that I am better than Jonah bin Matta."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 127

In other words, no one has the right to call the Holy Prophet (pbuh) the best of creation!

The matter even gets worse with this hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Whoever says that I am better than Jonah bin Matta, is a liar."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 128

In short, whoever claims that Muhamad (pbuh) is the best of the prophets is a liar!! I wonder how many of the Sunni scholars have fallen under this category.

Can we still trust the hadiths of such people?

And Imam Muslim caps it all!

Anas b. Malik reported that a person came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: O the best of creation; thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He is Ibrahim (peace be upon him).

Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Number 5841

This thread does not claim that Sunnis believe that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is not the best of creation. Rather, it shows that both al-Bukhari and Muslim are NOT authentic, and are full of lies and blasphemies. Some people defend the authenticity of both books, relying mainly on the strengths of the chains. Now, here, these same chains, as well as the Sunni claims regarding Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, seem to have come back to haunt them.

Sunni comments on these hadiths would be highly appreciated.

Edited by toyibonline
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What a fantastic show isn't it? Lets see,

In other words, no one has the right to call the Holy Prophet (pbuh) the best of creation!

That hadith does not mean that. It is Sunni Aqida, that the Prophet is the Best among ALL the Creation

In short, whoever claims that Muhamad (pbuh) is the best of the prophets is a liar!! I wonder how many of the Sunni scholars have fallen under this category.

you wonder wrong. Because, it is Sunni Aqida, ijmaa, that the Prophet is the Best of All creation

Can we still trust the hadiths of such people?

yes because, firstly the hadiths are sahih, secondly, they are not a forgery, thirdly they disagree with what you made up

This thread does not claim that Sunnis believe that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is not the best of creation. Rather, it shows that both al-Bukhari and Muslim are NOT authentic,

actually, they are authentic, and Sunnis (who believe in the aqida of the Prophet being the Best of ALL Creation) use these very hadiths that you are copy pasting, to prove many other points of Sunni Aqida.

and are full of lies and blasphemies.

Funny, because Sunnis scholars, all of them, have been using these very hadiths for more than 1100 years, and they found no blasphemies.

Some people defend the authenticity of both books,

the books are authentic

relying mainly on the strengths of the chains.

since you reject hadith sciences, i suggest you take up some other profession than having fun on this forum, you cannot be nitpicking on Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih al-Muslim all your life you know

Now, here, these same chains, as well as the Sunni claims regarding Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, seem to have come back to haunt them.

I have never seen ANY Sunni get haunted by the above hadiths. But it seems you are being haunted instead. Am I right?

Sunni comments on these hadiths would be highly appreciated.

done

Edited by (_Sijistani_)
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I love reading sunni ahadith. Goats eat the Quran, people dancing in the masjid ............. people forgeting whole surahs the length of Baqara.......it never ends

You Sunnis are so pathetic

Abu Bakr and Omar were against hadith so why do you lifless, spiritualess people still read them

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We Shia agree on how to pray but Sunnis cannot even get that right! ahah How do you think you look when you all cannot even agree on how to pray?

One prays with hands down, one on the belly, one on the heart and say "it is all sunnah." So make up you mind which one id which! Please don not turn to hadith because your caliph's were against them.

In fact, was not a famous sahaba exiled because he recited hadith?

Was not a famous sunni sahaba a famous fabricator of ahadith? Sunnis love him even though Umar beat him.

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(salam)

I've studied these ahadith a bit under two years ago. Thing is in the opinion of many modern Sunnis (some scholars aside), they don't always put the Prophet (pbuh) at the top of creation. Most do, but many don't. They'll put the 5 major messengers (Muhammed (pbuh), Jesus (as), Musa (as), Nuh (as), and Ibrahim (as)) at a similar level and prefer not to say one is better than the other. Of course not all Sunnis say this, but this is the sort of thing I was taught in masajid when I was younger - that we should refrain from "ranking" our prophets. That's the point Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 127 is trying to make.

Edited by Qa'im
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We Shia agree on how to pray but Sunnis cannot even get that right! ahah How do you think you look when you all cannot even agree on how to pray?

One prays with hands down, one on the belly, one on the heart and say "it is all sunnah." So make up you mind which one id which! Please don not turn to hadith because your caliph's were against them.

In fact, was not a famous sahaba exiled because he recited hadith?

Was not a famous sunni sahaba a famous fabricator of ahadith? Sunnis love him even though Umar beat him.

(bismillah)

This isn't the Shia/Sunni Insult forum. Please be nice.

Thank Brother Qa'im for your explanation, however, I disagree and every Imami would lol Rasulullah (pbuh) is the best of all creation.

(salam)

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Why do they need Shafi, Hanafi, Maliki etcc... ? These are your Imams who all declared takfeer on eachother's madhabs? These are your lights of guidance who contradict each other?

If this was not enough they then went to the liars Abu Hurairah and Aysha for supposed ahadith two hundred years after the event?

They are against ahadith (umar) but their followers use it?

How reason ye?

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We Shia agree on how to pray but Sunnis cannot even get that right! ahah How do you think you look when you all cannot even agree on how to pray?

what does this have to do with the topic?

Also, the Prophet alaihisalam, whose sunnah the Sunnis follow is preserved in the 4 madhabs of Sunni Islam.

(salam)

I've studied these ahadith a bit under two years ago. Thing is in the opinion of many modern Sunnis (some scholars aside), they don't always put the Prophet (pbuh) at the top of creation. Most do, but many don't. They'll put the 5 major messengers (Muhammed (pbuh), Jesus (as), Musa (as), Nuh (as), and Ibrahim (as)) at a similar level and prefer not to say one is better than the other. Of course not all Sunnis say this, but this is the sort of thing I was taught in masajid when I was younger - that we should refrain from "ranking" our prophets. That's the point Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 127 is trying to make.

wrong.

It is Sunni Aqida, that the Prophet is the Best of ALL Creation. He is separate, and all the rest of Creation is separate.

There is an ijmaa on this in all the 4 Schools of Sunni Islam. Sorry.

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what does this have to do with the topic?

Also, the Prophet alaihisalam, whose sunnah the Sunnis follow is preserved in the 4 madhabs of Sunni Islam.

you sunnis reject the fact that your 'imams' got their knowledge from imam as sadiq (as). But that doesn't matter beacause they made their deen the way they want, not the way Allah wants.

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Why do they need Shafi, Hanafi, Maliki etcc... ? These are your Imams who all declared takfeer on eachother's madhabs? These are your lights of guidance who contradict each other?

If this was not enough they then went to the liars Abu Hurairah and Aysha for supposed ahadith two hundred years after the event?

They are against ahadith (umar) but their followers use it?

How reason ye?

What do the Sunni madhabs have to do with the topic of this thread?

Which takfeer?

Which contradiction?

What does Sayyidna Abu Huraira radiallahu anhu and our mother Sayyida Aisha radiallahu anha have to do with this thread?

you sunnis reject the fact that your 'imams' got their knowledge from imam as sadiq (as). But that doesn't matter beacause they made their deen the way they want, not the way Allah wants.

what does this have to do with the topic?

and which sunni rejected Imam Sadiq radiallahu anhu?

who made up the deen?

what is the way that Allah WANTS?

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What do the Sunni madhabs have to do with the topic of this thread?

Which takfeer?

Which contradiction?

What does Sayyidna Abu Huraira radiallahu anhu and our mother Sayyida Aisha radiallahu anha have to do with this thread?

QUOTE (alial1234 @ Jul 21 2009, 06:45 PM)

you sunnis reject the fact that your 'imams' got their knowledge from imam as sadiq . But that doesn't matter beacause they made their deen the way they want, not the way Allah wants.

what does this have to do with the topic?

and which sunni rejected Imam Sadiq radiallahu anhu?

who made up the deen?

what is the way that Allah WANTS?

Calm down you sound like a physchopath. Read your books, understand them then try to act like an unknowing fool.

Edited by alial1234
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[First post.]

You don't think that they're authentic because you're interpolating the extent of your own beliefs in this hadith. The hadith is only a testament to how the Prophet (pbuh) is the best of creation. He has a quality called humility that alot of people lack.

Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are authentic. If you are a master of hadith, then I may consider what you're saying. Otherwise, no game.

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(salam)

[First post.]

You don't think that they're authentic because you're interpolating the extent of your own beliefs in this hadith. The hadith is only a testament to how the Prophet (pbuh) is the best of creation. He has a quality called humility that alot of people lack.

Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are authentic. If you are a master of hadith, then I may consider what you're saying. Otherwise, no game.

So you really believe Bukhari and Muslim are fully 100% authentic?

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(salam)

So you really believe Bukhari and Muslim are fully 100% authentic?

Yes, I do and if you present me with hadith from some of the Shia collections with proper proof of authenticity, then I'll accept them too. I think what you're having trouble with is the fact that various scholars give preferences to different hadith concerning the same topic. You can't doubt the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim based on just that because that's a huge extrapolation.

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Yes, I do and if you present me with hadith from some of the Shia collections with proper proof of authenticity, then I'll accept them too. I think what you're having trouble with is the fact that various scholars give preferences to different hadith concerning the same topic. You can't doubt the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim based on just that because that's a huge extrapolation.

(bismillah)

Are you sure about that one? Also, I've heard that if you belong to the Ghoumari or w/e school of `ilm ul hadith, those collections are not necessarily 100% sahih.

(salam)

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[First post.]

You don't think that they're authentic because you're interpolating the extent of your own beliefs in this hadith. The hadith is only a testament to how the Prophet (pbuh) is the best of creation. He has a quality called humility that alot of people lack.

Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are authentic. If you are a master of hadith, then I may consider what you're saying. Otherwise, no game.

You might want to re-read this hadith and re-consider your position:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Whoever says that I am better than Jonah bin Matta, is a liar."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 128

This doesn't sound like it is only about humility. Otherwise, you wouldn't have to be a liar for supporting for merely saying the truth!

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You might want to re-read this hadith and re-consider your position:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Whoever says that I am better than Jonah bin Matta, is a liar."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 128

This doesn't sound like it is only about humility. Otherwise, you wouldn't have to be a liar for supporting for merely saying the truth!

The reason that you can't accept what I've said about the hadith is because of the different backgrounds that we come from. Sunnis do not believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was infallible. We also believe that he was the best of creation, but that's relative to all human beings. To say that He is the best of creation is to say that He was the closest a human being ever got to perfection, not to say that he was perfect or infallible. He made mistakes and Allah by His mercy corrected them. He was human. If you can accept all of this, then the meaning of the hadith is pretty clear. If you maintain that He was infallible, etc. Then, I can understand why what I've said may not make sense and that's fine.

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Sunnis do not believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was infallible. We also believe that he was the best of creation, but that's relative to all human beings.

:!!!:

Thats a contradiction in terms. You have to prove that Nabi Jonah was more fallible than our Prophet to prove that our Prophet was both fallible and the best creation i.e. he was less fallible than Nabi Jonah or any other Prophet for that matter. And here i have to emphasise that we have to presuppose that Nabuwatt is indeed a privliged job role as opposed to the ordinary "I am with the Quran and Sunnah" junkie.

Edited by mandate
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The reason that you can't accept what I've said about the hadith is because of the different backgrounds that we come from. Sunnis do not believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was infallible. We also believe that he was the best of creation, but that's relative to all human beings. To say that He is the best of creation is to say that He was the closest a human being ever got to perfection, not to say that he was perfect or infallible. He made mistakes and Allah by His mercy corrected them. He was human. If you can accept all of this, then the meaning of the hadith is pretty clear. If you maintain that He was infallible, etc. Then, I can understand why what I've said may not make sense and that's fine.

(bismillah)

Most Sunnis and all Shi`a disagree. Rasulullah (pbuh) was ma`sum and protected by Allah (swt).

[shakir 53:1-3] I swear by the star when it goes down. Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire.

*Companion refers to Rasulullah (pbuh), Allah (awj) was addressing the people around him.

(salam)

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To say that He is the best of creation is to say that He was the closest a human being ever got to perfection, not to say that he was perfect or infallible. He made mistakes and Allah by His mercy corrected them. He was human.

First and foremost, this is irrelevant to the discussion. Secondly, one of the functions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is purification of the believers. Only an individual, who is himself thoroughly pure, can purify others:

[shakir 62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

So, watch what you say about our dear Prophet (pbuh).

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I'm suprised nobody argued that both hadiths can be interpretted as statements that indicate the humility of the Prophet (pbuh). Another simple argument is that the Prophet (pbuh) probably wasn't aware at the time that he was the best of human kind. I don't see a need for this to be two pages long really.

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I'm suprised nobody argued that both hadiths can be interpretted as statements that indicate the humility of the Prophet (pbuh). Another simple argument is that the Prophet (pbuh) probably wasn't aware at the time that he was the best of human kind. I don't see a need for this to be two pages long really.

:lol:

The ayaa in the Quran are very clear on the extremely noble status of the Prophet but anything to make the hadtth right eh! ;)

Edited by mandate
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A couple of them have already been quoted. How many more do you want? Rather can you produce ayat that suggest he was oblivious of his high status?

Incidentally was that your personal interpretation or do you have scholarly backing. I would like to know cos I would like to compare it with Imam Ali's version. There are several eulogies from Imam Ali but this one leaves no doubt in any one's mind"

Sermon 104 - Then Allah deputised Muhammad (p.b.u.h.a.h.p.) as a witness, giver of good tidings and warner, the best in the universe as a child and the most chaste as a grown up man, the purest of the purified in conduct, the most generous of those who are approached for generosity

Now lets see which version is more "authentic"

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A couple of them have already been quoted. How many more do you want? Rather can you produce ayat that suggest he was oblivious of his high status?

Actually, there is only one verse that has been quoted so far in this thread, which is the following:

[shakir 62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

The ball is in your court. How does this imply that the Prophet (pbuh) is better than Ibrahim. (Note: Not that he isn't, of course)

Edited by Lord Botta
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Actually, there is only one verse that has been quoted so far in this thread, which is the following:

[shakir 62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

There was one above that that begins this particular page. And secondly, I will assume that was your personal interpretation which lacks scholarly support. Atleast now you know why we wouldnt touch sunnism with a 10 foot pole.

The ball is in your court. How does this imply that the Prophet (pbuh) is better than Ibrahim. (Note: Not that he isn't, of course)

Ofcourse he was superior.

1 - Religion was perfected with our Prophet and his succession through the Ahlul Bayt. This is a blessing no Prophet has received.

2 - Quran is a perfect scripture. No Prophet was given that privilege. The suhoof of Nabi Inrahim has been already corrupted as with the pther preceding scriptures

3 - Our Prophet and his succession through the Ahlul Bayt best exemplifies all preceding Prophets including Nabi Ibrahim. The essence of Nabi Ibrahim's religion is defined by this ayat:

6:75 - So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.

Shi'ism can demonstrate this ayat to perfection. Sunnism cant. Hence religion was perfected through Shi'ism at the time of Prophet's Last Sermon at Ghadir Khumm. Sura 6 verse proves that the Ghadir Khumm sermon was indeed his last sermon.

Edited by mandate
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I'm suprised nobody argued that both hadiths can be interpretted as statements that indicate the humility of the Prophet (pbuh). Another simple argument is that the Prophet (pbuh) probably wasn't aware at the time that he was the best of human kind. I don't see a need for this to be two pages long really.

Seems I can't really do without answering you. I mean, the "ignore" card simply doesn't seem to work! You are giving two probabilities:

1. The statement was out of humility. However, his charge of lying against anyone who places him above Jonah, who was not even of the Ulul Azm, doesn't support such a position. It seems he meant what he supposedly said, literally!

2. The hadith was said in ignorance (auzubillah), and was later revoked. Again, there is no proof for this. Otherwise, show us the revoking hadith, and tell us why it is not in the Sahihayn!!

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(bismillah)

(salam)

From my knowledge I believe the hadith quoted has a certain context. Its meaning is that we shouldn't think Our Holly Prophet (pbuh) is better by only using the reason that he (pbuh) ascended the heavens while Prophet Yunus (as) descended the depths of the sea. Both has communication with Allaah. So the hadith means to say one is not greater than the other in terms of their receiving revelation. I think this is the meaning of that.

Momin

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