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ShiaBen

Iran and the Karabakh War

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Hi brothers and sisters. I'm new to this forum, I'm not sure if this topic has ever been discussed on this forum.

The Karabakh War, was a tragic event that occurred from 1988-1994. The war was fought over land between the neighboring nations of Azerbraijan and Armenia(with support of Russia). In this war, Armenian troops invaded the Karabakh region of the Republic of Azerbaijan, and seized it from the Azerbaijani population, and currently controls it.

Being that Iran is a Muslim country, Iran usually tries to send aid or protect specific Muslim populations in some countries. Iran has been known for giving aid exclusively during wars between Muslims and non-Muslim aggressors to parts of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Algeria, Pakistan, Chechnya and many more.

One of the things that popped up in my mind was Iran's involvement in the war. Prior to this war, Iran was among the first countries to establish relations and recognize the new Republic of Azerbaijan(1991) once it separated from the dying USSR. However a year later, Iran decided to aid Armenia (food and electricity) in this conflict. Iran had two reasons was

Abulfaz Elchibay, the president of the Republic of Azerbaijan at that time, had made a death threat to Iran. He ridiculously said, he would plan to invade South Azerbaijan(a region of cities where the Iranian Azeris reside), and separate it from Iran. He called Iran a doomed state, that would sooner or later collapse in about 5 years. However, later during the war, when he realized Iran gave aid to Armenia, against the Turkish and Azeri embargoes around Armenia, he criticized Iran for not helping Azerbaijan. Iran however, did give financial aid to the Naxchivan enclave(part of Azerbaijan).

So I was wondering, do you guys think, Iran did a terrible thing, by funding a Christian, Russian backed Armenia. Do you think Iran should have ignored Elchibeys threat, and continue to help the country for the sake of the people. Or do you think, the consequences were justified and that any threat should be taken very seriously. During the later half and last years of the war, Elchibey was replaced by a different leader (Heydar Aliyev).

Some say the ramifications after this war are, the establishment of close ties between Azerbaijan and the state of Israel, while Iran continues to be the largest trade partner to Armenia.

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azerbaijan is an american & israeli puppet until they change their ways iran will side with haqq.

28 Jun 2009 16:34 ]

Bakı – APA. Israeli President Shimon Peres has arrived in Baku on an official visit on June 28. Azerbaijani President’s Press Service told APA that Israeli President was welcomed at Heydar Aliyev Baku International Airport by First Deputy Prime Minister Yagub Eyyubov and other officials.

Shimon Peres and Yagub Eyyubov had a short protocol meeting at a VIP hall of the airport.

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Ask yourself why they are friends with Israel? Because Iran helped Armenia commit genocide against Shia Muslims.

Just like Iran watched and did nothing when Taliban massacred Hazara Shias in Afghanistan.

Iran only serves the Sunni Arab cause.

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They say the infamous Brenda Shaeffer, is using her use of the Azerbaijani, Turkish, and Russian languages, to create problems for Iran. Apparently they say her and Israel's Mossad are help training spies from Turkey and Azerbaijan, to gather information on Iran.

They also say, Israel has setup several spy networks and satellites on the Azerbaijan, Iran borders. Which Iran has warned Azerbaijan to refrain from aiding Israel.

However, when the U.S. govt. asked Ilham Aliyev whether, they can use his country to invade Iran, he replied he would never allow a U.S. invasion from the Azeri mainland to invade Iran.

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Ask yourself why they are friends with Israel? Because Iran helped Armenia commit genocide against Shia Muslims.

Just like Iran watched and did nothing when Taliban massacred Hazara Shias in Afghanistan.

Iran only serves the Sunni Arab cause.

Iran tends to respond late in these situations. Iran sent mostly food, aid, and power supplies to the Northern Alliance, but by the time Iran gathered 300,000 troops and warned Pakistan to refrain from funding the Taliban. The Taliban had finished it's dirty work.

I hope in the future Iran can play a more active role, and do a lot more. During that time the Taliban even reached Herat and established it's borders close to Iran.

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They say the infamous Brenda Shaeffer, is using her use of the Azerbaijani, Turkish, and Russian languages, to create problems for Iran. Apparently they say her and Israel's Mossad are help training spies from Turkey and Azerbaijan, to gather information on Iran.

They also say, Israel has setup several spy networks and satellites on the Azerbaijan, Iran borders. Which Iran has warned Azerbaijan to refrain from aiding Israel.

However, when the U.S. govt. asked Ilham Aliyev whether, they can use his country to invade Iran, he replied he would never allow a U.S. invasion from the Azeri mainland to invade Iran.

This was in 2009. Karabakh war took place in 1992-93.

Iran sent help all the way to Bosnia, but not to their shia brothers? Forget that, why help Christian army? And they talk about 'Islamic Unity'?

If maybe Iran had offered their assistance the two countries would not be in this situation now. Now Azerbaijan has been left to the Communist, Nationalist and even Zionists.

Over 70% of Azerbaijan is Shia.

Lets not forget it was the Azeri tribes that made Iran shia in the 16th Century. As we know Iran was majority Sunni before this, and majority of the Sunni scholars were Persian.

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What exactly is Islamic about Azerbaijan and those living there? I don't know if you have ever come across people from that place but they are radically anti-Islamic. The real Muslims are not free to practice their religion. Since its inception the country has always been anti Iranian and opposed Islam growing. What exactly would make us support them?

To me, because of their stance on Islam, I consider it an illegitimate government.

Edited by Arman

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I think both of you make great arguments about this.

Arman is correct about the anti-Islamic thing. A lot of Muslims in Azerbaijan get harassed because the country's ideology has been different since 1827. North Azeris see themselves as more secular non-practicing Muslims. They tend to affiliate themselves with Christian Georgians, Russians, and others in term of life style and culture. While there are practicing Muslims in Baku, they tend to be small (no more than 10% old generation). There is one city dedicated to Islam there, and that is Nardaran. The tomb of Rahima Khanima lies there, explaining it's religious affiliation to the place. The govt. in Baku accuses Nardaran of being religious spies for Iran to destabilize Iran, which I thought was a ridiculous statement, and believe it or not many idiots from the North that believe this hoax.

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Iran is continuing to help the Palestenians despite their leaders hating Iran.

Iran helping Armenia against Shia Muslims is a deplorable act.

Qom only wants an Iranian empire, the old persian empire

religion is one face of the card, politics is the other face, they go hand in hand

the concept of Azerbaijan scares Qom

Edited by (_Sijistani_)

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What exactly is Islamic about Azerbaijan and those living there? I don't know if you have ever come across people from that place but they are radically anti-Islamic. The real Muslims are not free to practice their religion. Since its inception the country has always been anti Iranian and opposed Islam growing. What exactly would make us support them?

To me, because of their stance on Islam, I consider it an illegitimate government.

Please do not address a nation...!!!! "those living there" are getting back to religion and they are doing well at the moment, even though that they do not receive any back up from "Shia Iran" where powerful Shia schools are based and ideas+mullahs are usually being exported to Shia countries..

Their opposition to Iran and religion probably started after they saw Iranian supporting the secular-Christian Armenia, but not a Shia nation. separate people from their government, even though that the government is much tolerant towards Shia Islamists nowadays, especially in the south of the country and in Baku.

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azerbaijan is an american & israeli puppet until they change their ways iran will side with haqq.

The Sunni government of Afghanistan and the Northern Alliance too are the puppets of Israel and the West, but, Iranian government has been helping them extremely! Iran is helping Northern Alliance based on Tajik/Persian heritages and empowering even Shia opposition folks in the country with the excuse that the alternative is the "Taliban". Turkey is the other Muslim country who recognizes Israel, but if there is a conflict in the region, there is no doubt that Iran is going to help Turkey against most of other players in the region.

So the case between Azerbaijan and Iran is not what you are trying to present here.. It could be that some fascist and racist elements within the Iranian governments are trying to keep a distance between Iran and Azerbaijan and create mistrust for their own reasons that I don't want to go into much details here.

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Please do not address a nation...!!!! "those living there" are getting back to religion and they are doing well at the moment, even though that they do not receive any back up from "Shia Iran" where powerful Shia schools are based and ideas+mullahs are usually being exported to Shia countries..

Their opposition to Iran and religion probably started after they saw Iranian supporting the secular-Christian Armenia, but not a Shia nation. separate people from their government, even though that the government is much tolerant towards Shia Islamists nowadays, especially in the south of the country and in Baku.

Why do you just make up information about things you seem to be unaware of? You seem to be unaware that Iran had en embassy in Azerbaijan before their independence and that Iran was the only country they could travel to. Iran made worldwide calls for supporting the Muslims of that Azerbaijan. The relations of Azerbaijan with Israel were not after anything, they were before their independence even. It was only after their call to Independence they made public their friendly relations with Israel. Their anti-Islamic stance was not after anything, its what they inherited from the Soviet Union. Do you know what happened right after they declared Independence? They verbally and very bluntly attacked Iran and called for the separation of provinces Azarbaijan from Iran to join Iran, they actively called the Iranian people to rise against the Iranian government and separate themselves.

Azerbaijan had completely blocked Armenia and they were fighting an informal war against them. Why do you think all the peace talks were held between Armenia, Azarbaijan before the war? Because they were friendly to each other?

Iran actually helped the Azari's militarily before this path azarbaijan went in.

Either way, assuming your ridiculous statement that Iran was always against azarbaijan and that is the reason they hate religion, this still does not justify their anti-Islamic stance. Any Muslim would know this.

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Its an ironic issue and I dont wish to offend anyone here but look at it from this point of view:

1. Azeris (or Azerbaijanis) consider themselves more ETHNIC than RELIGIOUS. Just becase they're "Shia" doesnt mean a thing. They're mostly secular people with no spiritual connections. The "shia" thing about Azerbaijan is simply a form of identification. It means absolutely nothing.

2. Azeris fought a war against Armenia because of the Turkic people's long hatred toward Armenian ethnicities. Thats a fact, it dates back to the Ottoman Empire's genocide toward Armenian people before World War I. Azeris are ironically ORIGINALLY Iranian/Aryan tribes. They were "Turkified" by Oghuz Turks during the Seljuk invasion of Asia Minor and Transcaucasia. They became Turkic and adopted a Turkic language. And consequently, as the saying goes, they became "more Turkish than the Turkish".

3. Now that this is the case, they are ethnically-motivated people. They hate anything non-Turkic. In other words, they hate: Arabs, Persians, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, you name it. And just take a look at the Ottoman Empire's history. It fought the Iranians, it fought the Arabs, the Greeks and Armenians. Face it, theyre nationalists, and Azerbaijan is a REFLECTION of an age-old pan-Turkic nationalism (i.e. racism) that has been on-going for hundreds of years.

The Azeris can use Shia Islam as a way to gain Iranian sympathy, but they failed in grasping that attention because the Iranians werent falling for it. It was another typical trap, bite the hand that feeds you. Iran didnt stand with Azerbaijan because nothing about them is religious or spiritual. And Azerbaijan started the war.

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Its an ironic issue and I dont wish to offend anyone here but look at it from this point of view:

1. Azeris (or Azerbaijanis) consider themselves more ETHNIC than RELIGIOUS. Just becase they're "Shia" doesnt mean a thing. They're mostly secular people with no spiritual connections. The "shia" thing about Azerbaijan is simply a form of identification. It means absolutely nothing.

2. Azeris fought a war against Armenia because of the Turkic people's long hatred toward Armenian ethnicities. Thats a fact, it dates back to the Ottoman Empire's genocide toward Armenian people before World War I. Azeris are ironically ORIGINALLY Iranian/Aryan tribes. They were "Turkified" by Oghuz Turks during the Seljuk invasion of Asia Minor and Transcaucasia. They became Turkic and adopted a Turkic language. And consequently, as the saying goes, they became "more Turkish than the Turkish".

3. Now that this is the case, they are ethnically-motivated people. They hate anything non-Turkic. In other words, they hate: Arabs, Persians, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, you name it. And just take a look at the Ottoman Empire's history. It fought the Iranians, it fought the Arabs, the Greeks and Armenians. Face it, theyre nationalists, and Azerbaijan is a REFLECTION of an age-old pan-Turkic nationalism (i.e. racism) that has been on-going for hundreds of years.

The Azeris can use Shia Islam as a way to gain Iranian sympathy, but they failed in grasping that attention because the Iranians werent falling for it. It was another typical trap, bite the hand that feeds you. Iran didnt stand with Azerbaijan because nothing about them is religious or spiritual. And Azerbaijan started the war.

Absolutely stupid arguments by some members here.

Simple question: Have you ever met 8.5 million Azeris and know that they all are secular and anti-religion?

I have been visiting more than 5 Azeri Islamic websites for the last 4 years and they are more religious and honest religious people than most people posting here. And as I stated before, even the secular government over there started to respect people's will and religious beliefs.

But, why does it matter when we decide between right and wrong. Armenia was absolutely wrong and still occupying Azeri and Muslims lands without any justification. That has nothing to do with Azeris being good practicing Muslim or not, a government ran by Sharia and powerful clerics should stand by JUST and justice against those who are wrong, not going to help the oppressor side to avenge because some folks on TV or from some government buildings said that they want free Azerbaijan from Iran. We witness many Hamas officials who repeatedly say stupid and derogatory remarks about Shias, but Palestinians still receive aids from Iran, right?

Those who try to ignore Azeris by claiming they don't deserve any help because they are secular and that is why Iranian regimes in the past were right should remember the time when the Sunni Secular Bosnia got help from Iranians. I met both Azeris and Bosnians, and I am sure most of you may did. Bosnia was/is the country whose Muslim population know nothing about Islam, except "Eid" celebration. For sure you may find a few mosques over there, but they have nothing from Islam except that they know their great grandfathers were Muslims. (of course there are some exceptions).

Shia scholars are sent to Syria and North Africa to promote Shia Islam amongst Sunnis, but the next door, very easy target, the secular Shias are not encouraged to return back to Islam... that is BIG question!

It is the Kufur and the forces of the monafiqeen who want the ummah to remain divided, posing as Muslims and as good devotees but, when the right time comes for them, they raise up their 'green flags' and chant 'Allahu Akbar' to bring an Islamic government down, and unfortunately we all fall for that.

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Absolutely stupid arguments by some members here.

Simple question: Have you ever met 8.5 million Azeris and know that they all are secular and anti-religion?

I have been visiting more than 5 Azeri Islamic websites for the last 4 years and they are more religious and honest religious people than most people posting here. And as I stated before, even the secular government over there started to respect people's will and religious beliefs.

But, why does it matter when we decide between right and wrong. Armenia was absolutely wrong and still occupying Azeri and Muslims lands without any justification. That has nothing to do with Azeris being good practicing Muslim or not, a government ran by Sharia and powerful clerics should stand by JUST and justice against those who are wrong, not going to help the oppressor side to avenge because some folks on TV or from some government buildings said that they want free Azerbaijan from Iran. We witness many Hamas officials who repeatedly say stupid and derogatory remarks about Shias, but Palestinians still receive aids from Iran, right?

Those who try to ignore Azeris by claiming they don't deserve any help because they are secular and that is why Iranian regimes in the past were right should remember the time when the Sunni Secular Bosnia got help from Iranians. I met both Azeris and Bosnians, and I am sure most of you may did. Bosnia was/is the country whose Muslim population know nothing about Islam, except "Eid" celebration. For sure you may find a few mosques over there, but they have nothing from Islam except that they know their great grandfathers were Muslims. (of course there are some exceptions).

Shia scholars are sent to Syria and North Africa to promote Shia Islam amongst Sunnis, but the next door, very easy target, the secular Shias are not encouraged to return back to Islam... that is BIG question!

It is the Kufur and the forces of the monafiqeen who want the ummah to remain divided, posing as Muslims and as good devotees but, when the right time comes for them, they raise up their 'green flags' and chant 'Allahu Akbar' to bring an Islamic government down, and unfortunately we all fall for that.

Your answer means nothing.

Azerbaijan was trying to fight a racial/ethnic war, something which Islam doesnt believe in. Even the Imams said that a Muslim leader who oppresses will not outlast the non-Muslim leader who brings peace and justice to his people. Just because Azerbaijanis are Muslim doesnt mean they are right. The reason why "Secular" Bosnian Muslims got aid from Iran was because they were victims of a maniac Slavic-Nationalist who wanted to get rid of anything that he saw a threat to his race or religion. So Iran was justified in helping out Bosnians, whether they were Sunnis, Shia or non-Muslim.

Azerbaijan is different. They didnt get help from Iran because they didnt represent Islam. They were the forces of the monafiqeen which your last sentence spoke about. They were the ones claiming to be muslims and then inciting hatred toward non-Turkic groups. Its blatant nationalism and racism, and I for one am thankful you werent running Iran at that time because they sure took the proper decision in not aiding a bunch of racist bigots.

Wasalam.

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Your answer means nothing.

Azerbaijan was trying to fight a racial/ethnic war, something which Islam doesnt believe in. Even the Imams said that a Muslim leader who oppresses will not outlast the non-Muslim leader who brings peace and justice to his people. Just because Azerbaijanis are Muslim doesnt mean they are right. The reason why "Secular" Bosnian Muslims got aid from Iran was because they were victims of a maniac Slavic-Nationalist who wanted to get rid of anything that he saw a threat to his race or religion. So Iran was justified in helping out Bosnians, whether they were Sunnis, Shia or non-Muslim.

Azerbaijan is different. They didnt get help from Iran because they didnt represent Islam. They were the forces of the monafiqeen which your last sentence spoke about. They were the ones claiming to be muslims and then inciting hatred toward non-Turkic groups. Its blatant nationalism and racism, and I for one am thankful you werent running Iran at that time because they sure took the proper decision in not aiding a bunch of racist bigots.

Wasalam.

Someone50 well said man,

you are faaaaaaaaaaaaar from the truth. Armenians DID exactly what the Israelis did to the Palestinians. Let me ask you this, what makes you equate a Turk, Uzbek, Azeri, Uyghur, as the same kind of mentality??? What gives you the right to equate them??? What does the Ottoman Empire have to do with Azerbaijanis??? Just because you speak Turkish doesn't mean you are the same Turk from Turkey. Azerbaijanis are a mix of caucasian, iranic, and turkic influence. Are you even aware that Shah Ismail was an Azerbaijani???? Who had friendly relations with the Greeks, Georgians, Kurds, Persians and many other groups??? He even fought the Ottomans.

The war was a war provoked by Russia after it lost the USSR. The goal was for Russia to see both these ex SSR nations duke it out to weaken themselves so it can have them in it's axis of influence. You can compare Karabakh to Transinestria a similar occupied region, that was taken from the Moldovans. Armenians invaded Karabakh (Black Garden in Farsi/Turkish), and killed many civilians, children, women, old men etc. Had the Armenians not invaded the Azeris, Armenians wouldn't have been kicked out of Baku AND would have been able to live at ease with the rest of the minorities such as the Georgians, Kurds, Talysh, Tats, Russians, and the others.

The majority of the diaspora of Armenians are the type of people who claim genocide on one end, and pretend they never participated in massacring Georgians, Kurds, Jews, Turks, Azerbaijanis and other ethnic groups. They even demanded an Armenian quarter in Jerusalem. An Armenian quarter in Isfahan, Iran. On top of that on a PAN-armenian website, I read that an Armenian Historian, says she wants to see Islam banned from Armenia. Is this not a bit prejudice itself????

If Azerbaijanis are such bigots, why was their president an ethnic Kurd???? Heydar Aliyev was Kurdish. One of their defense ministers was a Lezgi.

I'm not sure where this whole "racism" issue comes from. I have Azeri friends and family from both the South, North, and Russia, and I haven't seen any racism when it comes to them. There is a lot of intermarriage among Persians and Azeris in Iran. Sure there are groups that tend to be nationalistic, but this doesn't mean that they are all bigots, or refuse to talk to anyone. If anyone group is racist or a bigot, I would lean closer to Armenians. The whole purpose of this ethnic group in the eyes of the Russians was to cause problems in the Caucasus, like they are doing in Georgia right now. Their leaders at one point even threatened of creating a "Greater Armenia" incorporating Eastern Turkey, Naxchivan, and Northern Iran. They killed Sattar Khan an Iranian revolutionary. They had a massacre in Urmia, Iran. So don't pretend they are innocent cherubic angels.

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Azeris fought a war against Armenia because of the Turkic people's long hatred toward Armenian ethnicities. Thats a fact, it dates back to the Ottoman Empire's genocide toward Armenian people before World War I. Azeris are ironically ORIGINALLY Iranian/Aryan tribes. They were "Turkified" by Oghuz Turks during the Seljuk invasion of Asia Minor and Transcaucasia. They became Turkic and adopted a Turkic language. And consequently, as the saying goes, they became "more Turkish than the Turkish".

If you've actually met Armenians in your life, you'd know who has a long-standing hatred for who. What happened between the Ottomans and the Armenians was a WAR, not a systematic genocide. The Armenians killed countless Turks and Kurds in Turkey's Eastern region and they sided with the Russians during WWI before the Ottomans decided to expel them. I condemn the actions that some Ottoman soldiers and officials took part in during this war, but that doesn't mean that the intention of the government was to wipe out an entire people. Stop believing European and kufar propaganda about the Armenian massacres. The primary motivator of the West in pumping this issue has always been European-Christian imperialistic hatred against the Ottomans and Muslims. They want to stain a Muslim people (yes, contrary to your stupid opinion, the Turks are Muslim and have done more for Islam than you or your country ever have) with the false label of "genocide". I've seen how Armenians in the US behave when it comes to this issue, and it's very disturbing. Not only are they completely unwilling to discuss this topic openly, but they'll never acknowledge their own crimes. But then again, why I'm I bothering to convince you for? In your mind, Turks are all a bunch of war-mongering barbarians who only masquerade as Muslims.

ShiaBen, pay this ignoramus no attention. He hates Turks anyway, and if you see his old posts, you'll see what I'm talking about. Every single piece of propagandist [Edited Out] you'd hear from a European bigot about Turks, you'll hear from him. He's bought into the lies hook, line, and sinker.

Edited by bkt900

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^I only do my best to counter the extreme Pan-Turkic nationalism Ive seen around here from members like yourself. It has no place in Islam. Goodbye. ;)

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^I only do my best to counter the extreme Pan-Turkic nationalism Ive seen around here from members like yourself. It has no place in Islam. Goodbye. ;)

I am not a Pan-Turkist nor was I ever a Pan-Turkist. How is anything I said Pan-Turkist? Do you even know what a Pan-Turkist is? You just dodge an argument by lies and accusations.

"Extreme Pan-Turkic nationalism" - you're really full of it. I invite the moderators to take a look at all the posts in which you and I have engaged in debates, and they'll see who is really being disingenuous. Your previous posts on Turks have been nothing short of hateful, and for you to turn around and claim the moral high ground isn't fooling anyone. I've only done my best to counter your propaganda and hate.

Lying has no place in Islam. Goodbye :P

Edited by bkt900

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I am not a Pan-Turkist nor was I ever a Pan-Turkist. How is anything I said Pan-Turkist? Do you even know what a Pan-Turkist is? You just dodge an argument by lies and accusations.

"Extreme Pan-Turkic nationalism" - you're really full of it. I invite the moderators to take a look at all the posts in which you and I have engaged in debates, and they'll see who is really being disingenuous. Your previous posts on Turks have been nothing short of hateful, and for you to turn around and claim the moral high ground isn't fooling anyone. I've only done my best to counter your propaganda and hate.

Lying has no place in Islam. Goodbye :P

So this guy has had multiple posts on Turk bashing?? wow, sounds like we've got a huge bigot near our eyes, thanks for the notice BKT900. Apparently having friendly relations with a Turk, having a Turkish friend, eating Turkish food, listening to Turkish music, visiting Turkey, to him equates as "Pan-Turkism".

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