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In the Name of God بسم الله

Israeli submarine crosses Suez Canal

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JERUSALEM: An Israeli submarine crossed through the Suez Canal last month as a part of a military training exercise, defense officials said on

Saturday.

The move is believed to have been made as a warning to Iran of the Jewish state's capabilities and and to show that Israel and Egypt, are cooperating against a shared threat. The two countries share a peace agreement but have had cool relations for years.

By using the Suez, an Israeli submarine could reach the Persian Gulf off Iran in a matter of days, compared wiith weeks to sail around the southern tip of Africa.

The submarine participated in naval maneuvers in the Red Sea last month, said Israeli defense officials who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. They did not giive further details.

Israel owns three dolphin-grade submarines, which can carry nuclear warheads. Israeli defense officials do not discuss the type of missiles that can be fired from the submarines, nor their range.

Israeli officials have a long-standing policy of neither confirming nor denying its nuclear arsenal and would not comment on Saturday. It is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of atomic arms, including hundreds of warheads.

The maneuvers took place before the Iranian presidential election that set off a wave of protest demonstrations. Israeli officials believe that Iran intends to acquire the ability to build nuclear weapons regardless of who leads the country.

Iran is under three sets of UN Security Council sanctions for refusing to freeze its uranium enrichment program - an activity that Tehran insists is meant to generate nuclear fuel but which can also be used to produce fissile material for nuclear warheads.

Iran's nuclear program is particularly worrying for Israel because of Tehran's belligerent stance toward the Jewish state. Egypt also has tense relations with Iran which it believes is trying to spread its radical brand of militant Islam through the region.

The Jerusalem Post reported this was the first time Israeli vessels had crossed the Egyptian canal since 2005.

Egypt's relations with Iran worsened after Egyptian officials arrested members of the Lebanese Shiite guerrilla group Hezbollah in Egypt, accusing them of operating in its territory. Hezbollah is bankrolled by Iran, and Egypt accuses it of being a proxy to obtain Mideast regional influence.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Israeli...how/4738323.cms

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One in maintenance, one in training, one on station, sounds about right. To put all three on station would mean putting them all in maintenance and training with nothing on station 2/3rds of the them. I would consider that a prelude to attack.

This seems to be a defensive action.

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The Israeli subs each carry to enlarge torpedo tubes capable of launching long ranged cruise missiles. These must have a strategic role, because there are a number of anti-ship cruise missiles in western and eastern arms inventories that can be launched from a normal sized torpedo tube.

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The Israeli subs each carry to enlarge torpedo tubes capable of launching long ranged cruise missiles. These must have a strategic role, because there are a number of anti-ship cruise missiles in western and eastern arms inventories that can be launched from a normal sized torpedo tube.

Unless they are nuclear-tipped, I don't see what good they serve. A few cruise missles is not going to knock out Iran's air defenses.

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Unless they are nuclear-tipped, I don't see what good they serve. A few cruise missles is not going to knock out Iran's air defenses.

Nuclear-tipped used to annihilation of life on earth not to knock out air defenses ,why people don't understand that !

Any way cruise missile used to knock established targets like the important buildings .

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The Israeli subs each carry to enlarge torpedo tubes capable of launching long ranged cruise missiles. These must have a strategic role, because there are a number of anti-ship cruise missiles in western and eastern arms inventories that can be launched from a normal sized torpedo tube.

I think best anti-subs is helicopter with special bombs that make seismic waves . Therefore I prefer governments to buy helicopters instead of subs .

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I think best anti-subs is helicopter with special bombs that make seismic waves . Therefore I prefer governments to buy helicopters instead of subs .

Iran Air Force fleet to welcome 209 Cobra

Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:23:10 GMT

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The 209 Cobra helicopter equipped with rockets

A 209 Cobra helicopter has become fully operational after undergoing repairs by Iranian experts and technical staff in the city of Kerman.

?After being repaired at the Kerman air base, the chopper became fully operational after 20 years of limited flights,? IRNA quoted base commander Brigadier General Pedram Khoshkar as saying on Wednesday.

?Following 8,000 hours of technical work, the helicopter is now equipped with rockets that can be used during operations,? he added, explaining that the domestic maintenance work done on the helicopter had saved one million-dollars for the Iranian Air Force.

?The seven helicopters which have been repaired by the technical staff of Kerman base will all join the country's air fleet soon,? he explained.

HRF/HGH

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=10014...ionid=351020101

Edited by Firoz Ali
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Yes, a helicopter is the best anti-submarine weapon, but it has to be configured for that type of mission. Your cobra gunship knock off is particularly unsuited for this type of mission because its high performance, mini cannon, and optical sighting systems are useless against an underwater target. An anti-sub helicopter must have extreme range, then be able to hang over the water as its sonic buoys map the water that a sub may be lurking in. Anti-sub helicopter are generally big and slow because of their huge fuel tanks and large pay load of sonic buoys and homing torpedoes. The bird you pictured might as well be a nimble humming bird while what is needed is a loitering Condor.

Edited by Spriglief
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Yes, a helicopter is the best anti-submarine weapon, but it has to be configured for that type of mission. Your cobra gunship knock off is particularly unsuited for this type of mission because its high performance, mini cannon, and optical sighting systems are useless against an underwater target. An anti-sub helicopter must have extreme range, then be able to hang over the water as its sonic buoys map the water that a sub may be lurking in. Anti-sub helicopter are generally big and slow because of their huge fuel tanks and large pay load of sonic buoys and homing torpedoes. The bird you pictured might as well be a nimble humming bird while what is needed is a loitering Condor.

Iran has frogmen and mini-subs which can be used against big subs.....so long as they don't lie too deep.

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Muraqib ul tarig, fogmen would only be effective against an undefended sub tied to a dock. A mini-sub would have to be almost as lucky.

A frogman could sneak up on a big sub and detonate a device......it depends on close to the surface the big sub was....in the Persian Gulf the waters are shallow.

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Hi,

I have chosen one comment from that site which Fairoz Ali linked ;

Poor Iran, with its useless military hardware...haha laughable.

Are american politicians laughing like that comment above ,and is it realy useless especially Vs USA ?

Ahmadinejad said something intersting to people of iran : He said they don't fear your missiles but they fear yourself confidance .

Edited by yonus
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This omg scary thing has been thought about before. What the gentlemen touting for Israel and anything anti-Iran do not wish to understand is that only a suicide submarine would enter the extremely shallow and vast waters of the Persian gulf. Don't bother asking them to debate logically btw. It's been done before:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...49880&st=50

LOL

Lastly, to make everyone happy, yes I'm very afraid at the moment. I actually soiled my pants when I read this:

Israeli submarine crosses Suez Canal, with eye on Iran (!!! AMG)

Good heavens! God help us! A little band of fatherless gay jewish sailors cometh for us!! Amigad!! Helppp!!! :o :o :o

^^

Btw, since a picture is missing from that old thread,

Persian_Gulf01.gif

This is the persian gulf. See how shallow it is? At only one place in in the center the deepest is 102 meters. All it needs is a 1943 era destroyer (a small military vessel) equipped with its antique depth charge canisters and its antique ASDIC active sonar and after a few minutes you can expect a lot of dead fish having limbs and wearing unifroms floating on the surface. They could depth charge subs effectively even down to 300 meters back during ww2. You can outfit a yacht with a sonar device and those canisters to pop your fancy Israeli submarine. Such shallow water is no place for a submarine. Just admit it. Try scaring people with your illegal pet state's nukes and missiles instead and you might hope for more success depicting that idea.

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee
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The type, range, and warhead of the Dauphine submarines is a state secret. This in itself is scary because for deterrence to work, the enemy has to aware of the capabilities of its opposite. This means the weapon (if it exists) can be considered a strictly offensive first strike tool of warfare.

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If Israel ever decides to take out Iranian sites, theyre never gonna use a submarine. My god that would be retarded of them...

First of all, the Persian Gulf waters arent really a nice place for subs. Okay, Im not saying submarines cant enter the Persian Gulf. Of course they can, they can enter any body of water provided the depth is right, and that applies to this region. So thats not the issue but the thing people are forgetting is that these subs are made mostly for oceans and big seas. The Persian Gulf is perhaps good for a navy, but not an underwater fleet. You might as well claim a submarine enterred the Tigris river, its a retarded thought and its useless. Zero efficiency, zero usefulness. So yeah, a submarine can go near Iran but it wont be useful, you might as well send a proper navy fleet.

And another thing, its not gonna happen. Air Force is Israel's biggest weapon and biggest defence force. IAF is the main threat to Iran's security. But even that has problems. Take for instance Israeli jet fighters are mostly air-to-air combat fighters, and only a number can actually hit land targets. Theyre mostly used for defensive purposes and they dont even have a refueling aircraft. So how are they gonna fly to Iran and come back to Israel? Not gonna happen. So in all honesty, Israel isnt going to do anything.

If they do, then their only gateway is through Saudi Arabia and the Saudis have already made it clear their Air Force and defence systems will hit any intruding aircrafts. So unless the IAF fly only a few meters above the sand dunes all the way across the peninsula and into the Persian Gulf, theres no chance in hell Iran will get hit by anything.

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Everybody agrees that the Persian Gulf is impossible for submarines to survive for any length of time after war breaks out. However, a look at your map Mo. Shows that the Gulf of Oman is deep enough and close enough to accommodate a sea attack with cruise missiles. This side steps the neutrality issues and distance problems that you have clearly outlined.

Edited by Spriglief
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If they do, then their only gateway is through Saudi Arabia and the Saudis have already made it clear their Air Force and defence systems will hit any intruding aircrafts.

I am not sure if saudis are serious or they have the ability to prevent israeli air crafts ,but for sure saudis disagree with hitting Iran . They both (KSA and Iran ) share in common that they don't want the strangers in the Perabian gulf .

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They have the ability. The Saudi Air Force is currently ranked one of the top in the Arab world, Im sure they can stop something in their way. But the question is, will the Israelis make it visible? I dont think so... Theyre most probably going to redo the Iraqi 1980s bombing flight path, which is to fly a few meters above ground level all the way across the peninsula and into the Persian Gulf waters, meaning that radars wont be able to detect them.

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It might work with surprise on the way in, but remember they have to come back and the entire Saudi and Jordanian air force would be ready and waiting. The IDF planes would be helpless because their fuel tanks would be on empty and in need of in air refueling. An Iraq style surprise raid is simply not possible without the collusion of either the Saudis or the Jordanians and Iraqis.

By the way, the Saudis have AWACS, a look down radar.

And as Mo noted, the Saudis are the best pilots on the world because proficiency is a function of air time training. Jet fuel is expensive and most nations skimp. The Saudis pilots spend great amounts of time in the air and receive technical training from the Americans. If their ground crews were trained as well as the pilots, they would be the best in the world.

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Everybody agrees that the Persian Gulf is impossible for submarines to survive for any length of time after war breaks out. However, a look at your map Mo. Shows that the Gulf of Oman is deep enough and close enough to accommodate a sea attack with cruise missiles. This side steps the neutrality issues and distance problems that you have clearly outlined.

Persian Gulf may be shallow but its not that small........also Iran has plenty of very quiet mini-subs which can avoid sonar detection if they are careful.

The straits of Hormuz are another thing: they have the potential to be to the US fifth fleet what Salamis was to the Persian navy.

Even in Operation Praying Mantis, when there was no real match between the forces, the US was lucky that many of the missiles and torpedoes fired by the Iranians didn't hit their ships - they also could not stop a WW2 mine from almost sinking the Samuel Roberts.

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Miget subs do not have the range to operate on the high seas. It they do, like say from a tender, they give up all their advantages. Their so called stealth does not come from their design, but from the shallow waters and high ambient background noise found in the Persian Gulf. In the Gulf of Oman and the Indian Ocean they are easily detected. The only chance they would have against an IDF submarine is to get a firing solution from the IDF torpedo already in rout to their location.

Iran would have much better luck with it’s (Russian) Kilo subs.

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You are wrong yonus. Modern submarines are very effective ship killers. In America wargames they often penetrate the anti-submarine screens around the aircraft carriers and lone merchant ships and warships don't have much of chance if detected.

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You are wrong yonus. Modern submarines are very effective ship killers. In America wargames they often penetrate the anti-submarine screens around the aircraft carriers and lone merchant ships and warships don't have much of chance if detected.

Yes spriglief , but if your enemy during conflict has not ships ,nor subs , shallow water , what submarines would do ? It would only launch tomahawk cruise missiles like the ships warriors otherwise they would be used for deliveries .

Yes they are important weapons if your enemies are equal to the force like china ,russia together Vs united states . At that time they will work hard .

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Everybody agrees that the Persian Gulf is impossible for submarines to survive for any length of time after war breaks out. However, a look at your map Mo. Shows that the Gulf of Oman is deep enough and close enough to accommodate a sea attack with cruise missiles. This side steps the neutrality issues and distance problems that you have clearly outlined.

Technically speaking, most of the Persian Gulf waters are deep enough to accomodate submarines so that's not the issue. In fact, a lot of them can make it as far north as Qeshm and Kish Islands, some perhaps reaching as far as Bushehr and other northern Iranian coastline cities. The only risk to allowing a submarine inside the Persian Gulf is its high chance or colliding with a ship or various rocks dispersed around the area. The Persian Gulf is extremely rocky, making even the smallest of overwater boats difficult to navigate through. And of course, a submarine in a shallow body of water such as the Persian Gulf cant really "hide" itself the same way it does in the Arabian sea or Indian ocean, meaning theres a high possibility it s[Edited Out]es off the lower deck of a vessel.

And really, thats the whole point of submarines: to travel along the same path of a ship but not collide with it since itll be much lower. But in the Persian Gulf, while its true submarines can fully submerge thesmelves under water they still cannot travel directly under an overlaying ship, otherwise theyll collide lol. So they still have to go round that ship, so clearly its not very efficient having subs in the Persian Gulf. Its achievable but not advisable.

However...

Bushehr, Bandar Abbas, Kish and Qeshm are all under a threat of submarine attacks. Maybe even as far eastwards as Shiraz or other cities in Fars.

=======================

It might work with surprise on the way in, but remember they have to come back and the entire Saudi and Jordanian air force would be ready and waiting. The IDF planes would be helpless because their fuel tanks would be on empty and in need of in air refueling. An Iraq style surprise raid is simply not possible without the collusion of either the Saudis or the Jordanians and Iraqis.

By the way, the Saudis have AWACS, a look down radar.

And as Mo noted, the Saudis are the best pilots on the world because proficiency is a function of air time training. Jet fuel is expensive and most nations skimp. The Saudis pilots spend great amounts of time in the air and receive technical training from the Americans. If their ground crews were trained as well as the pilots, they would be the best in the world.

I wouldnt go as far as saying theyre the best in the world. In the region? yes of course. I still rate Israeli fighters as better than Saudis. But if compared to Iran, Egypt or Turkey, then perhaps Saudi pilots are more efficient. However, one big factor weakens them and thats their dependence on foreign/western support in aircraft spare parts, in maintenance, etc. But they know their country better than anyone else, and since theyve made their intentions clear they will go after intruding aircrafts, Israel have no chance of attacking Iran via the Arabian peninsula. And going round the peninsula through the red sea, Arabian sea and Persian gulf takes too much length and consumes too much fuel. And since Israel has no refueling planes and considering theyre planning to return home, theres no way they can attack Iran.

The only possibility is that airplanes take off from a naval vessel close to Oman, attack Iranian targets and come back. But thatll make the naval vessels prone to getting hit by nearby Iranian fleets.

The Iraq option, in my opinion, is the best. Iraq still doesnt have a fully functional army, let alone air force or detection systems. Plus with the Americans and British soon withdrawing, Israel couldnt care less about having their approval. Theyre probably counting the day American and British troops are fully out of the country, so that they may begin raiding Iraqi aerospace without any western permission or even Iraqi recognition (since Iraqis arent equipped yet). Its a small golden opporunity for them to attack Iran, and I think they could.

As for intruding Jordanian aerospace, thats the only difficulty. And since they gotta enter Jordan before going to Iraq, theyre back in square one. :lol:

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