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Abdullah_A

Are Ismaili muslims?

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On 6/15/2016 at 4:25 AM, truthOfIsmails said:

we do pay zakat and more than you.we pay every month if u dont know the meaning of dasond or chahntah they dont speak
hazrat ali said: a wise man thinks before he speaks and a fool thinks after he has spoken (we shall soon know*).Basicaaly dasond means zakat.And we do fastsalat is another form of prayer which is known as dua if you dont know
and we belive in the pillars of islam 
we believe in prophet that he is the last messenger
and we do belive in imam jafair sadddiq 

 

A question before i go on to reveal some of Agha Khani beliefs and practices:

Did not your Imam  Ḥassan II ʻAlā Dhikrihi-s-Salām حسن على ذكره السلام abrogated the Sharia (which also includes the obligations/laws from Quran) for you, the Nizari Ismailis at Alamut?

If the Shariah is abrogated by your imam then it is not obligatory on you any more to follow those Quranic ayahs which were followed in letter & spirit by the prophet and Imams of Ahly Bait or other Muslims.

Born in Alamut, Mowlana Imam Ala Zikrihis Salaam is known to have declared the Yaum el-Qiyama or Day of Resurrection on the 19th of Ramazan, 559AH (10th of August, 1164). On the day, he made the following farman to the Jamat: "I am your Imam-e-Zaman....  Today I have explained to you the Law (Shariat) and its meaning. I make you free from the rigidity of the Law (Shariat) and resurrect you from the bondage of the letter to the freedom of the spirit of the Law. Obey me and follow my farman.  (Aziz, 1974).

source: http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/19023

 

I have spent time amongst Ismailis and had Ismaili friends so i can never be that wrong about them. The only (re)inaccuracy in my post was that i said Imam Jafar Sadiq instead of Imam Musa Kadhim.

 

You have tried to deceive the readers as you do not follow any basic teachings of the Quran or Islam but the Farameen of your spiritual imams, as you call them 'The Talking Quran'.

Dasond = 10th (this is dervied from Das =10 in hindi/urdu). This is not zakat, which is 2.5% and paid once in a year and not every month as you pay. You can understand that from your website http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/10275 . Dasond infact is a "tithe" just as paid by Christians to the church. The website proudly quotes " "Pay tithe and be rich" was an old proverb quite current among the Jews.  But the website then goes on to confuse it with khums rather than zakat.

This 1/10th cannot also be khums i.e. 1/5th, as khums was made obligatory on Muslims to be paid "in full" from spoils of war to the leader. Neither Shia nor Sunni interpretation of khums matches with that of Ismaili khums. khums literally means 1/5th, but ismailis translates khums as 1/10th!!! Quran 8:41 "And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth (khumsuhu) share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer.

Chehnta or Chahnta = Sprinkling of holy water (just as pope sprinkles rose-water in church) to remove sins is performed on poor ismailis AND THEIR SINS ARE ONLY REMOVED WHEN THE PAYMENT HAS BEEN MADE BY THE SINNERS. The size of payment depends on the size of sins! This payment shall go to Agha khan charity and then nobody exactly what happens to the amount. It is Allah who can only forgive sins, you need to regret and ask forgiveness to Allah and not pay cash to your spiritual leader to remove your sins. Yes you can only request someone to make dua for you. BTW is selling wine not a sin?

Fasting : Is not your fasting "a Batini Fasting" (consisted of the 3 things as mentioned below by your imam) since the obligation of Quranic Fasting is already removed by your 23rd imam. i never once saw any of my ismaili friends refrain from food in ramadan. 

"The fast is there to exercise the body. It is necessary to keep taqiya so that others may not indulge in backbiting (i.e. it may be necessary to observe the fast outwardly in order to protect the community from slander by other Muslims). But you who are haqiqatis (truth-seekers) are under an obligation to fast 360 days (sic). These fasts are:
1. Not to speak a lie
2. Not to deceive, swindle anyone, or abuse trust
3· Not to speak ill behind someone’s back.

In this manner 360 day haqiqi fasts (haqiqi rojaa) are mandatory (faraj) upon the Ismā‘īlīs.

– Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III,
(quoted in Malise Ruthven, “Aga Khan III and the Isma‘ili Renaissance,” 392)

In Syria a new mukhi appointed by Aga Khan III in 1895 was instructed in Khoja doctrines and rituals and told to introduce them into Syria. Similar changes were introduced in Iran. Hajj and fasting (Saum*) were abandoned along with ritual ablutions (wudu*) before prayers: God, rather than his house, was to be worshipped (i.e. no qibla*); the true fast was year-round abstention from evil; true ablution was cleansing of the heart. Duties (‘ibadat) regarded as essential by other Muslims, such as Hajj and fasting, were defined as furu’-i-din, auxiliaries of the faith

– Malise Ruthven, “Aga Khan III and Ismaili Renaissance”,
(Peter B. Clarke, ed., New Trends and Developments in the World of Islam. London: Luzac Oriental, 1998, 371–95: 382)

SALAT: In Ismailism, it is A DUA which is recited without following the Quranic obligations for a valid Salat i.e. without qibla without wudhu without ruku or Sujud, this cannot be called the prayer of Rasool and Imams of Ahly Bait. ohhh, i now remember that the Sharia is already lifted for you.

In the matter of the Ismā‘īlīs praying only three times daily instead of five times and not keeping fasts (roza) generally in the month of Ramaḍān, he [the Imam] told me two things: that in the Qur’an there was no specific mention of the number of daily namaz. It was only a tradition (sunnah); the other was that there was a hadith where the Holy Prophet had said that if during his lifetime the people of Arabia observed 90% of his injunctions, 10% would be forgiven. But after his death, if the followers observed even 10%, 90% would be forgiven. These hadiths are confirmed in a book on the life of the Prophet by Martin Lings which I read only recently. This hadith makes Islam the most liberal religion.”

– Dr. Hasan E. Nathoo, (My Glorious Fortnight with Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah, London, 1988

Edited by Bukhari8k

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On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2015 at 1:52 AM, LeftCoastMom said:

^ Just popping in to say....I kinda like Sufis. One of my professors in religion ( Christian himself) always had us start class with Sufi stuff.  :bye:

I love the Sufis as well.  There should be an affinity between Shi'ism and Sufism because all of the Sufi orders trace themselves back to Imam Ali ibn abi Talib (AS) except for 1 that goes back to Abu Bakr.

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Bismillahi Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam alaikum.  Brothers and sisters, please forgive me if my words sound argumentative.  They are not meant to.  I don't know who is correct in terms of the succession to Imam al-Sadiq (AS).  I believe that the successor, based on the evidence put before me, is Imam Musa Kazim (AS).  So I definitely consider myself to be a part of the Ja'fari school and an Ithna Ashari; HOWEVER in a world were the Shi'a and anyone who does not follow an extremely literalistic and rigid interpretation of Islam are being killed by daesh, in good conscience, I do not believe it appropriate or correct to ask if Isma'ilis are Muslims.  Auzubillah! If they profess the Shahada; believe that Muhammad (salallahu alayhe wa ahle wasalam) is the final Messenger and Prophet of Allah, then they are Muslims.  There may be beliefs or practices that they follow that I may not understand or agree with, but it is not for me to be a takfiri.

Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) will judge us in all we do, and His judgment shall be righteous and fair.

As I said, please forgive me if I sound argumentative.  I sincerely believe there are amazing and well intentioned people here, and as far as knowledge, I am the least among you, but may Allah (swt) strengthen all our iman and not let shaytaan or daesh or anyone try to smash apart the Ummah of RasulAllah (SAWS) in shaa Allah.

 

R

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On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2010 at 6:57 PM, 89jghur32 said:

It also includes the Salafi, Ibadhi and Shia Zaidiyyah schools.

It's weird because the Aga Khan is a signatory and endorser of the Amman Message.

And to add a layer of complexity, in the letter that he addressed to the Amman conference, he affirmed that the Isma'ilis traditionally followed and upheld the Ja'fari school and other madahib of close affinity. He also described himself as being the 49th Hereditary Imam of the Isma'ilis in direct descent from RasulAllah (SAWS), and nobody disputed any of it. 

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Has any marja ruled on Ismaiiis as non muslims that so many of you are saying they are not muslim? Is there even one? It seems to me I am reading posts here where Shia are trying to use a salafy interpretation to decide this issue. Not praying makes someone a fasiq, a sinner, not a non muslim.

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On 5/8/2012 at 3:12 PM, Ruwayd said:

First of all, Khalil / Ismailite, you're free to post what you like within the rules of the forum. You're free to respond as you wish. So far, you're basically confirming that what I've shared is factual, but, that I just don't understand it like a proper Nizari Ismaili would. No kidding. You're absolutely right about that. Any regular Muslim would not find these things acceptable, no matter what the explanation is that you or other Nizari Ismailis might give.

We should also mention to all the readers that it is the Aga Khan himself who began the Institute of Ismaili Studies and who owns it. Both the Aga Khan and his last few predecessors had no idea what Fatimid Era and pre-Fatimid Era Ismailism looked like. Thus, a portion of the tithe money (billions per year) they get from Nizari Ismailis was used to start research on what Ismailism from several hundred years ago looked like and consisted of. So far, what they've found is that Fatimid and pre-Fatimid Ismailism is not that different from modern-day Bohra Ismailism or Twelver Shi'ism - but, very different from recent and modern-day Nizari Ismailism.

Do you really expect anyone here to believe, Khalil, that current and recent practices and articles of faith of the Nizari Ismailis (i.e. within the last 2-3 centures) that go on inside jamatkhanas or in Nizari Ismaili homes are going to be published in widely available books by the Institute of Ismaili Studies that anyone can go and read? We all know that isn't happening.

Most of the books you'd like us to read, Khalil, from the Institute of Ismaili Studies and elsewhere, relate to how Ismailism worked before the reign of the Aga Khans (i.e. prior to the 19th and especially prior to the 18th century) - and that form of Ismailism is a lot like Bohra Ismailism and Twelver Shi'ism. What people want to know instead is what Nizari Ismailism has looked like over the last 200 or so years (especially since the reign of the Aga Khans) as well as what it looks like today, which no Nizari Ismailis will talk about publicly (although they may open up somewhat if you get close to them and talk with them privately) and which no publicly available books will talk about (with the exception of Akbarally Meherally's books - and, as I've said before, I don't necessarily like the guy but anyone who does their due diligence will find that 70-85% of what Meherally writes is perfectly accurate, while the rest is speculative or difficult to comment on with certainty).

Secondly, how is what I've presented subjective? Court documents from a case in which the Aga Khan was directly involved? Farmans (pronouncements) of the Imam? Ginans (hymns) recited in the jamatkhana? The "Holy Du'a" (Ismaili salaat) recited in the jamatkhana - both before and after 1956, including the old "Holy Du'a" which had been recited from the beginning of the 19th century up to 1956?

These are all primary source documents. I'm only linking to the forums to provide secondary evidence and to show that Nizari Ismailis from the present day still retain many of these beliefs, if not all of them. The primary evidence is quite visible and the secondary evidence is perfectly valid, as Ismaili.net is used by many Nizari Ismailis to converse about their faith and to explore matters of their faith. I'm amazed that the Ismaili.net forums are even publicly accessible. I'm sure some Nizari Ismailis like Khalil, who don't want Muslims to see how unorthodox Nizari Ismailis are, would really like it if Ismaili.net was closed off to the public. Thankfully, it hasn't been...yet, anyway.

We could go on and on about the shirk that has been included in Nizari Ismailism since the reign of the Aga Khans as Nizari Ismaili Imams. Take the Ginan Allah ek Kasam Sabuka, where it says that the progeny of Ali (as) is Islam Shah the king. Allah is that Imam. The list can go on and on (Hak tu Pak tu, etc.).

Through the old Nizari Ismaili "Holy Du'a", Aga Khans I through III made two very clear statements:

1. Ali Allah – meaning Ali is Allah - and to further reiterated the meaning, they maintained:

2. Ali sahi Allah – meaning Ali is truly Allah.

Both these statements were used interchangeably, but had the very same meaning. The message was that Ali, or in this case the present living Imam, is Allah in the manifest form.

As a Nizari Ismaili, to this very day, every time you go jamatkhana, you recite congregational "tasbih" (what regular Muslims call "du'aa" or supplication), whereby you and your Nizari Ismaili coreligionists say: "Oh Ali, Oh Hazer Imam...do such and such for us..."

You're only kidding yourself if you won't admit in this thread that everything I've posted is indeed true. These articles of faith and practices of Nizari Ismailis that I've highlighted are things that neither Bohra Ismailis nor Ismailis from the pre-Fatimid and the Fatimid eras would ever have anything to do with, of course. Even your modern "Holy Du'a," which has been recited thrice daily since 1956, has shirk in it. The links are in this thread for anyone who wishes to read it.

I am a born ismaili and I am very confused about ismailism. I have attended the jamatkhana regulary throughout my life but as I am learning more about Islam, I do not attend Jamatkhana as much. I am starting to question Ismailism more and more. There is soo much questions in my head but I cannot get any answer out of this sect. Right now im in the air and running around reading about Sunni, Shia, and Ismailism in search for the truth. 

I can confirm that the above statements are not far off. I m not very educated in ismailism and the ginans are in Gujrati (or something) which I dont understand; therefore, I cannot confirm that it is saying Ali is God. Although, by the acts like holding your hands how a Hindu does during Poja, I wouldnt be shocked if they were praying to Imam. I am familiar with "Aliyullah" because it is said many times in duas but i never knew its truth meaning until now. 
Ask me any questions, i promise to you that I will answer them with truth and with what I, personally, know. I cannot confirm everything because it is hard to get answers in jamatkhana if you have questions. Nobody asks questions in jamatkhana so how can we learn. I ve been learning from doing my own researches and the more i learn, the more i get scared about ismailism. 

I am very confused and scared. Please brothers/sisters, pray for me to be guided on to the straight path. 

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On 11/25/2015 at 3:38 PM, Bukhari8k said:

Brother reisiger

I am also in favor of a united ummah but there are a few groups which just don't belong. BTW what is your take on Qadiyanis?

Salaam alaikum! I''m so sorry about the lapse here.  I definitely didn't mean to leave that unanswered; no discourtesy intended.  I totally agree that there are groups that have practices that I don't agree with.  In this case, I know that there are Ulema from different schools who have affirmed the place of the Isma'ilis in the Ummah, and others who have said absolutely not.  

I don't know if the Qadiyanis and the Ahmadiyya are the same, but I've seen the terms used interchangably.  Anyway, I would say that there are definitely serious concerns about the claims of their founder to be the Madhi.  It isn't for me to say whether they are or are not part of the Ummah, but there are definitely concerns about those claims.  I don't really know enough about them and I don't know anyone who is a Qadiyani.  

May Allah (SWT) guide us all to salvation.

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On 8/29/2016 at 1:31 AM, Obaidullah27 said:

I am a born ismaili and I am very confused about ismailism. I have attended the jamatkhana regulary throughout my life but as I am learning more about Islam, I do not attend Jamatkhana as much. I am starting to question Ismailism more and more. There is soo much questions in my head but I cannot get any answer out of this sect. Right now im in the air and running around reading about Sunni, Shia, and Ismailism in search for the truth. 

I can confirm that the above statements are not far off. I m not very educated in ismailism and the ginans are in Gujrati (or something) which I dont understand; therefore, I cannot confirm that it is saying Ali is God. Although, by the acts like holding your hands how a Hindu does during Poja, I wouldnt be shocked if they were praying to Imam. I am familiar with "Aliyullah" because it is said many times in duas but i never knew its truth meaning until now. 
Ask me any questions, i promise to you that I will answer them with truth and with what I, personally, know. I cannot confirm everything because it is hard to get answers in jamatkhana if you have questions. Nobody asks questions in jamatkhana so how can we learn. I ve been learning from doing my own researches and the more i learn, the more i get scared about ismailism. 

I am very confused and scared. Please brothers/sisters, pray for me to be guided on to the straight path. 

AOA Brother, Keep learning and Allah will keep guiding you InshaAllah.

For a Muslim, Quran is the No. 1 source on all fundamental teachings of Islam and Allah has said in Surah al-Baqarah verse 2 in Quran "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah" 

Then in Surah Ahzab verse 21 Allah orders us to follow the examples set by Prophet (saw) and you will have to learn about his life in detail through books of seerah: 

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.

Then you can go on to follow those who followed/follow Muhammad (saw) in their lives in the best possible manner to achieve Allah's favours. Who reflect through their acts that they are the followers of the final messenger as in Surah Fatihah 6-7 "Guide us to the straight path - The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray."

Pray for yourself and pray for me as well.

Regards

Edited by Bukhari8k

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11 hours ago, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum! I''m so sorry about the lapse here.  I definitely didn't mean to leave that unanswered; no discourtesy intended.  I totally agree that there are groups that have practices that I don't agree with.  In this case, I know that there are Ulema from different schools who have affirmed the place of the Isma'ilis in the Ummah, and others who have said absolutely not.  

I don't know if the Qadiyanis and the Ahmadiyya are the same, but I've seen the terms used interchangably.  Anyway, I would say that there are definitely serious concerns about the claims of their founder to be the Madhi.  It isn't for me to say whether they are or are not part of the Ummah, but there are definitely concerns about those claims.  I don't really know enough about them and I don't know anyone who is a Qadiyani.  

May Allah (SWT) guide us all to salvation.

Before checking on the Ulemas... let us see our own basic concepts.

What do you think of a person who openly, knowingly negate, reject and dismiss a clear command of Allah mentioned in Quran?

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4 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

Before checking on the Ulemas... let us see our own basic concepts.

What do you think of a person who openly, knowingly negate, reject and dismiss a clear command of Allah mentioned in Quran?

I think that's a loaded question.  Which command are you referencing? I'm not being clever or trying to sound disrespectful, but I'd like to know which command you are mentioning and which group you mean.  As for the Ulema, I would always defer to them before my own meager knowledge.  There is much I do not know, so I would not trust my knowledge over theirs.

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On 9/3/2016 at 11:25 PM, reisiger said:

I think that's a loaded question.  Which command are you referencing? I'm not being clever or trying to sound disrespectful, but I'd like to know which command you are mentioning and which group you mean.  As for the Ulema, I would always defer to them before my own meager knowledge.  There is much I do not know, so I would not trust my knowledge over theirs.

Like Allah has ordered in Quran for fasting during Ramadan and to refrain from eating and drinking till certain time or ordered in Quran to face Qibla while praying, while in Ruku and Sujud. Now if one says that such commands are no more required to be followed because he says so... what would the implications be?

On basic or fundamental things in Islam like tawheed or following Muhammad (saw) or believing in the truthfulness and completeness of Quran a person needs not to refer to Ulemas. Allah has given every us the conscious and understanding of differentiating right from wrong in basic matters. Christians, hindus have ulemas too. But it is the very intellect that every individual has to utilise in common matters. The only person we can follow blindly is Muhammad (saw).

Edited by Bukhari8k

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6 hours ago, binyameen said:

I am a recent convert to Islam and I am interested in authentic sources on the Ismailis, both past and present.  Please help me out.  

"Tracing its earliest theology to the lifetime of Muhammad, Ismailism rose at one point to become the largest branch of Shī‘ism, climaxing as a political power with the Fatimid Caliphate in the tenth through twelfth centuries.[4] Ismailis believe in the oneness of God, as well as the closing of divine revelation with Muhammad, whom they see as "the final Prophet and Messenger of God to all humanity". The Ismāʿīlī and the Twelvers both accept the same initial Imams from the descendants of Muhammad through his daughter Fatimah and therefore share much of their early history. Both groups see the family of Muhammad (the Ahl al-Bayt) as divinely chosen, infallible (ismah), and guided by God to lead the Islamic community (Ummah), a belief that distinguishes them from the majority Sunni branch of Islam.

After the death of Muhammad ibn Isma'il in the 8th century CE, the teachings of Ismailism further transformed into the belief system as it is known today, with an explicit concentration on the deeper, esoteric meaning(batin) of the Islamic religion. With the eventual development of Twelverism into the more literalistic (zahir) oriented Akhbari and later Usuli schools of thought, Shi'i Islam developed into two separate directions: the metaphorical Ismaili group focusing on the mystical path and nature of God, with the "Imām of the Time" representing the manifestation of esoteric truth and intelligible reality, with the more literalistic Twelver group focusing on divine law (sharia) and the deeds and sayings (sunnah) of Muhammad and the Twelve Imams who were guides and a light to God.[5] Ismaili thought is heavily influenced by neoplatonism."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isma'ilism

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On ۱۳۹۵/۶/۱۵ ه‍.ش. at 7:09 AM, Bukhari8k said:

Like Allah has ordered in Quran for fasting during Ramadan and to refrain from eating and drinking till certain time or ordered in Quran to face Qibla while praying, while in Ruku and Sujud. Now if one says that such commands are no more required to be followed because he says so... what would the implications be?

On basic or fundamental things in Islam like tawheed or following Muhammad (saw) or believing in the truthfulness and completeness of Quran a person needs not to refer to Ulemas. Allah has given every us the conscious and understanding of differentiating right from wrong in basic matters. Christians, hindus have ulemas too. But it is the very intellect that every individual has to utilise in common matters. The only person we can follow blindly is Muhammad (saw).

An infidel i.e. a person who does not believe in Allah and His Oneness, is najis. Similarly, Ghulat who believe in any of the holy twelve Imams as God, or that they are incarnations of God, and Khawarij and Nawasib who express enmity towards th e holy Imams, are also najis. And similar is the case of those who deny Prophethood, or any of the necessary laws of Islam, like, namaz and fasting, which are believed by the Muslims as a part of Islam, and which they also know as such. As regards the people of the Book (i.e. the Jews and the Christians) who do not accept the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad bin Abdullah (Peace be upon him and his progeny), they are commonly considered najis, but it is not improbable that they are Pak. Ho wever, it is better to avoid them.
http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2132/

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On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 2:58 AM, binyameen said:

I am a recent convert to Islam and I am interested in authentic sources on the Ismailis, both past and present.  Please help me out.  

Salaam alaikum! 

Congratulations on your reversion.  May Allah (swt) forgive all of your sins and reward you for accepting Islam! :)

The Isma'ilis are definitely an interesting group; the term is not at all monolithic and covers a ton of ground.  I have found Farhad Daftary's The Isma'ilis: Their History and Doctrines to be the most neutral and academically complete and cohesive writing on the subject.

Because the Isma'ilis have been historically a persecuted community, so much that is written about them is written from an antagonistic point of view, heresiologists, etc.  I am no expert, although I am certainly interested in them as well, so please feel welcome to reach out with any questions.

My position on them, in the interest of full disclosure, is one of academic curiosity.  I am a Twelver myself, but I respect anyone who says and believes the Shahada, and especially those who love Ahlul Bayt (AS).

All the best to you in your journey, brother!

R

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21 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Alevis and İsmailis are similar

We also are Bâtın’îyye 

Salaam alaikum!

It's unfortunate that there is a sense of a narrow orthodoxy within the Ummah as a whole.  I believe this is a modern phenomenon, or at least one that is worse in modern times.

I'm neither, but still affirm that if you say and believe the Shahada, then you are a Muslim and it is to Allah (SWT) to judge on all else.  Just my unscholarly opinion. :) 

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Bâtın’îyye, is the secrets of Islam spiritually.

Alevi Turcoman bektasî slightly different than ishmailis.

Also we were sufiligini back 1200 than kizilbash and than Alevî. 

"Dede" are Seyyid from imam riza and Imam Musa-ı El-Kâzim and Imam Cafer-I Sadik

 

 

 

Edited by AleviTurkmenKhorasan

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On 9/3/2016 at 1:03 AM, Bukhari8k said:

AOA Brother, Keep learning and Allah will keep guiding you InshaAllah.

For a Muslim, Quran is the No. 1 source on all fundamental teachings of Islam and Allah has said in Surah al-Baqarah verse 2 in Quran "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah" 

Then in Surah Ahzab verse 21 Allah orders us to follow the examples set by Prophet (saw) and you will have to learn about his life in detail through books of seerah: 

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.

Then you can go on to follow those who followed/follow Muhammad (saw) in their lives in the best possible manner to achieve Allah's favours. Who reflect through their acts that they are the followers of the final messenger as in Surah Fatihah 6-7 "Guide us to the straight path - The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray."

Pray for yourself and pray for me as well.

Regards

Walaykum Salam.
Thank you brother. I've followed my heart towards the main stream Shia. 

Please pray for me as I am still having challenges with my family. I cannot come forward telling my family that I have left Ismailism. Inshallah/God willing, one day, soon.

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18 minutes ago, Ali_ul_azeem said:

Yes! anyone who believe that there is no god but Allah and Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w) (PBUH) is the last messenger is a muslim. 

Totally with you there.  I'm waiting to get called out as a closet Isma'ili, but I'm not.  I just feel like saying anyone who accepts that there is no god but Allah (SWT) and the last Prophet and Messenger is Muhammad (SAW) is not a Muslim is just wrong.  They may practice things differently than we do, but at the end of it all, we will all have our own Day of Judgment.

I can say this- the way that the detractors of the Isma'ilis talk, there are things that are raised that were similar to what others raised about Ithna'Asheris.  I had to untangle all that mess, and Alhamdulillah I did because I found a depth of Islam so far past the dry legalism of the Sunni madahab.  I just worry that we will become what I have heard a Sufi Shaykh call "pious law clerks," if we focus so much on differences in Fiqh; although I fairness, the present Imam of the Nizari Isma'ilis said that they follow the Ja'fari school of fiqh and other madahab of close affinity, so I don't see why the uproar and the takfir and all that...

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Just now, reisiger said:

Totally with you there.  I'm waiting to get called out as a closet Isma'ili, but I'm not.  I just feel like saying anyone who accepts that there is no god but Allah (SWT) and the last Prophet and Messenger is Muhammad (SAW) is not a Muslim is just wrong.  They may practice things differently than we do, but at the end of it all, we will all have our own Day of Judgment.

I can say this- the way that the detractors of the Isma'ilis talk, there are things that are raised that were similar to what others raised about Ithna'Asheris.  I had to untangle all that mess, and Alhamdulillah I did because I found a depth of Islam so far past the dry legalism of the Sunni madahab.  I just worry that we will become what I have heard a Sufi Shaykh call "pious law clerks," if we focus so much on differences in Fiqh; although I fairness, the present Imam of the Nizari Isma'ilis said that they follow the Ja'fari school of fiqh and other madahab of close affinity, so I don't see why the uproar and the takfir and all that...

Look man whatever i do right or wrong its my personal deed and we will be judged for that. But i don't think we have any rights to judge anyone. live and let live. 

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1 minute ago, Ali_ul_azeem said:

Look man whatever i do right or wrong its my personal deed and we will be judged for that. But i don't think we have any rights to judge anyone. live and let live. 

So true.  We all like to get up in each other bidness don't we?  Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. :) 

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28 minutes ago, reisiger said:

So true.  We all like to get up in each other bidness don't we?  Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. :) 

I feel the same way as well, but the Isma'ilis are still a question mark for me and from what I've read of them, I am left scratching my head.

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Just now, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I feel the same way as well, but the Isma'ilis are still a question mark for me and from what I've read of them, I am left scratching my head.

Agreed.  I read this article and said, well... maybe there's something to this...

https://ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who-succeeded-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-seven-proofs-for-the-imamat-of-imam-ismail-ibn-jafar/

Like I said in my other post, many accusations against the Isma'ilis have had similar ones aimed at us as well. I've also heard similar things said about Sufis, but when you listen to them or read works written by them rather than their opponents, many seem quite reasonable.

In the case of the Isma'ilis, I struggle not with the things I've heard the Agha Khan say, but with things that were supposedly done during late Fatimid times (the Caliph-Imam who claimed Qiyyamah had come and "abolished" the sharia for example).  But when he speaks, it's perfectly reasonable and I can't find anything with which to find fault.  Then I see a picture of him with a girl in a bikini, and that's bad, but then it's like wait, was that faked??

I don't think we can ever know who is right, but maybe making the sincere effort and conscientiously following what we honestly believe to be true after exhaustive intellectual struggle to come to truth will avail us on Judgment Day?  I don't know.  I struggle with this a lot.

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That is a real deep question...

impossible to answer in this kind of atmosphere. It is a multi faceted argument between the Qat'iyya and the Isma'iliyya.

in short, if they are the "pure Isma'ilis" meaning those who followed or rather believes that Isma'il b. Jafar was alive and their Imam then yes, they have evidences regarding that claim.

but if it's the Nizaris that they later "turned into" then no, they have become antinomians and abandoned the Shari'ah 

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Forget all these sects and religions 

 

Just believe in Allah, the messenger and Ahlibeyt 

Any road that doesn’t follow science, ends in darkness, 

Give education to women, 

Control on your tongue, hands and waist, 

The greatest book to read is man himself, 

Honesty is the door of a friend, 

Being a teacher is to give, not to take, 

The universe is for man, and man for the universe, 

Science illuminates the paths of truth, 

We travel in the way of science, comprehension and human love, 

Clean where you’ve settled and deserve the money you’ve made, 

Let’s be one, be big and energetic, 

Don’t hurt anyone, even though you’ve been hurt, 

Don’t ask anyone for anything that would be difficult for you to do, 

Don’t blame any nation or individual, 

Blessed are those who illuminate the darkness of thought, 

Keep on searching, and you’ll find, 

The beauty of the face consists of the words you speak, 

Don’t forget that even your enemy is human, 

The biggest God-given miracle is work, 

In the language of friendly conversation, you can’t discriminate between man and woman, 

Everything God has created is in order, 

To us, there’s no difference between man and woman, 

If you think there is, you’re mistaken. 

His thoughts are based on human love and human existence. This vision is similar to the 1948 Charter on Human Rights. His thoughts were also shared by M. Kemal Atatürk 600 years later, and the Turkish Republic was built on the principles of secularism, democracy and respect for human rights. His thoughts are still alive and still lighten the way for many people.

 

It’s not the trivet but the fire gives the heat, 

The miracle is not in the crown but in the khirkah (woolen garment worn by a dervish) 

Whatever you’re searching for, search in yourself, 

It’s neither in Jerusalem, Mecca nor in the Hadj.

 

 

Open your hand (be generous to everyone), 

Share your food, 

Open the door of your house when somebody needs shelter, 

Close your eyes (don’t be led astray by the artificial beauties of the world), 

Control your waist (Don’t be a victim of your sexual impulses), 

Control your tongue. 

He who comes with patience and God, 

Stands by our side. 

He who works with morality and wisdom and passes us, 

And stands our side.

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The accusation that Ismailis have abandoned the Shariah and are therefore not true Muslims is nothing but BS.

HEre is why: the Shariah during the first 5 centuries of Islam was NOT the basis for who is a Muslim and who is not - this is the research of W.C. Smith, a renowned scholar of religion and someone very sympathetic to Islam and Muslims.

 

In fact, it is totally historically incorrect to claim that Islam = Obeying Law. The latest research in Islamic studies, most recently in the book "What is Islam" by Shahad Ahmed has totally refuted and demolished the theory that Islam is equal to and synonymous with Law/Fiqh/Shariah. 

There are ALTERNATIVE ways of being Muslim and doing Islam without Law/Fiqh/Shariah being the basis. Many Sufi groups over history - Sufism is the most popular pervasive form of Islam - and Ismailis have enacted Islam without Law/Fiqh/Shariah being the definition of Islam.

This does NOT mean libertinism. Instead, today for Ismalis, what it means is that Ethics, Value and Virtue and Adab - which are ways of behaving - have replaced the Legal-Form or Fiqh form of the Shariah. So the Shariah is an intellectual shariah consisting of ethical practices, discplines, and virtues and the religious practices are Tariqah practices

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Now witth respect to the Aga Khan - so far nobody here has been judging him or the Ismailis by the Aga Khan's words and actions. instead everyone is merely repeating anti-Ismaili tropes they have heard second hand or from propaganda.

The Aga Khan's Imamat is based on his lineage from the prior Imams and the nass he has received from the prior Imams. The Proof of the Aga Khan's Imamat is well documented here - which includes a collation of all the third party historical sources validating the Aga Khan's unbroken lineage from Ali b. Abi Talib:

https://ismailignosis.com/2016/07/09/the-aga-khans-direct-descent-from-prophet-muhammad-historical-proof/

Now, it is equally important to judge the Aga Khan's Imamat based on its actual merits and proofs. It is also important to  be well informed of what the Aga Khan's interpretation of Islam actually is. As it happens, there are over 500 speeches, writings and interviews of the Aga Khan available to read online for free. Extracts from these 500 documents on specific subjects - like Islamic law, tradition and modernity, Imamat, etc. have been compiled in this summary document. Anyone who wants to criticize the Aga Khan must do so based on his own statements and not silly third party attributions that his opponents make to him.

http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/wp-content/uploads/documents/nanowidsoms-er-remarks-by-the-aga-khans-iii-iv-on-various-religious-and-intellectual-issues-in-islam.pdf

 

Finally, someone remarked about seeing the Aga Khan with women in bikinis. Two things: Ismailis are not against women wearing bathing suits and Ismailis don't believe in the Hijab or face veils or anything of that sort - these things do not come from Islam originally, they come from Byzantine and Sassasnian cultures and were imported by the Abbasids to become cultural norms. I know I know, you dont' like it. Well...deal with it. This is the Ismaili way.

Secondly, there are numerous photoshopped photos of the Aga Khan going around. Here are a few that we exposed as fake:

[MOD NOTE: Pictures of females with immodest dress are not allowed on SC.]

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İn Alevi you cannot marry more than once or divorce As you make a vow to Allah 

You can not be a theif, murder, have sex with another before marriage or during marriage apart from your wife 

İf you commit any sins you are classed as düşkün which means not an Alevi 

Today's Sharia is that of muaviye and ummayad dynasty not true Hz Muhammed Islam 

 

 

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On 23/12/2016 at 8:36 AM, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

İn Alevi you cannot marry more than once or divorce As you make a vow to Allah 

You can not be a theif, murder, have sex with another before marriage or during marriage apart from your wife 

İf you commit any sins you are classed as düşkün which means not an Alevi 

Today's Sharia is that of muaviye and ummayad dynasty not true Hz Muhammed Islam 

 

 

 

:salam:

It is the shari`a of Allah (swt) to take up to 4 wives, as mentioned in the Qur'an.

Do you even read it, rather than rejecting all of its laws on the pretext of batiniya ?

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