Are Ismaili muslims?

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Considering the Quran tells Mohamad to tell his family to pray, considering the Prophets use to pray, considering the Quran commands Mohammad to be constant in his prayer, and by prayer I mean Salah, and that the Prophet use to called Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain to pray....Why doesn't your Imam pray? I mean Salah. Why doesn't he constantly establish it as did the Prophet and Ali use to do?

 

 

[johndoe786]

Considering the Quran tells Mohamad to tell his family to pray, considering the Prophets use to pray, considering the Quran commands Mohammad to be constant in his prayer, and by prayer I mean Salah, and that the Prophet use to called Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain to pray....Why doesn't your Imam pray? I mean Salah. Why doesn't he constantly establish it as did the Prophet and Ali use to do?

Very good question sir. Our Imam prays the Namaz. He is constant in his prayer. If you search on Google, there is many pictures of him praying namaz in mosques and even pictures of him leading namaz when he was a boy. As for his followers, we believe religious authority was passed from Muhammad (sas) to The Family. So by following his family today, we are following him. The Imam has the sole right in ismaili tariqah to choose the form of Prayer.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Ok thanks for answering. I was under the impression he didn't pray.

[StrugglingForTheLight]

I have the following question about a verse in Quran:

 

O you who believed, Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the command/authority (Ulil-Amr) from you therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the last day, that is better and best in the end.

 

Verse 4:59

 

I know we agree Ulil-Amr are the Imams, but I want to ask why does it say "refer it to God and the Messenger" and not "al-Thul-Amri minkinkum" (The one who possess authority from you), from my understanding, this to emphasizing the Ulil-Amr in all disputes and differences, command to refer to the Quran and Sunna, and they possess the correct understanding of the revelation and path of the Messenger, the wisdom of God found in Quran, morality and the sunnah of his Messenger, but would not command something that differs from his path.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johndoe786]

I have the following question about a verse in Quran:

O you who believed, Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the command/authority (Ulil-Amr) from you therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the last day, that is better and best in the end.

Verse 4:59

I know we agree Ulil-Amr are the Imams, but I want to ask why does it say "refer it to God and the Messenger" and not "al-Thul-Amri minkinkum" (The one who possess authority from you), from my understanding, this to emphasizing the Ulil-Amr in all disputes and differences, command to refer to the Quran and Sunna, and they possess the correct understanding of the revelation and path of the Messenger, the wisdom of God found in Quran, morality and the sunnah of his Messenger, but would not command something that differs from his path.

Good question again. From my understanding, the verse speaks about a disagreement. Ismailis are not in disagreement. We do refer back to the prophet and quran. What did the prophet say? To follow the Imams. We are following the prophet. The Quran says to pray and give charity but never says exactly how. We believe the Sunnah is time bound. We follow the essence of what the prophet said. To pray, to fast, and to give charity. Our Imam holds religious authourity similar to how to prophet did in his time. The Quran is eternal and everlasting. We follow our Imams interpretation of the faith, as our Imam is a descendant of Imam Ali (as). Hope that answers your question. Oh I would also like to make you aware of the Amman Message. It was a document signed by top scholars globally recognizing different types of Muslims. Ismailis were in that document. We are muslims. Our Imam signed that as well, and even made a letter to the people in charge of it. I urge you to read the letter and the Amman Message. Any other questions, let me know.

[Sol 7]

Salam.

 

According to this authoritative fatwa of all the worlds major Orthodox Muslim Leaders (Including Ayatollah Khameni and Ayatollah Sistani) Otherwise known as The Amman Message, a unanimous agreement was reached. 

 

Followers of the Four Sunni Madhabs, The two Shi'a Madhabs, Real Tasawwuf, Salafism, and the Ashari'i are all true Muslims. And making takfir on any of them is haram. 

 

Ismailis (Aga Khanis) are among the sects which it is haram to make takfir on. As their school of thought is included under the Jafri'i madhab. 

 

See for yourselves. 

http://ammanmessage.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=74

[reisiger]

Good question again. From my understanding, the verse speaks about a disagreement. Ismailis are not in disagreement. We do refer back to the prophet and quran. What did the prophet say? To follow the Imams. We are following the prophet. The Quran says to pray and give charity but never says exactly how. We believe the Sunnah is time bound. We follow the essence of what the prophet said. To pray, to fast, and to give charity. Our Imam holds religious authourity similar to how to prophet did in his time. The Quran is eternal and everlasting. We follow our Imams interpretation of the faith, as our Imam is a descendant of Imam Ali (as). Hope that answers your question. Oh I would also like to make you aware of the Amman Message. It was a document signed by top scholars globally recognizing different types of Muslims. Ismailis were in that document. We are muslims. Our Imam signed that as well, and even made a letter to the people in charge of it. I urge you to read the letter and the Amman Message. Any other questions, let me know.

 

Salaam alaikum,

 

This is an excellent conversation.  I've been fascinated by the Isma'ili community for a number of years.  The opinions as to their standing within the Ummah are all over the place, but having come to Islam through the Hanafi school, I initially had doubts about the validity of the Ja'fari school.  The Amman message was crucial for me to stop being freaked out about the Ithna Ashari school.  But Alhamdulillah, I came to know the truth of it. 

 

My question is this: I came across a statement in a few books on Shi'i Islam as a whole that described the genealogy of the Fatimids as being fabricated at worst or questionable at best.  I will never judge another person who worships Allah alone without partners and who believes that Muhammad is the last messenger and Prophet, so I'm not asking about doctrine so much as geneology.  Does anyone know of a resource that addresses this question?

 

Jazaak Allah Khair!

R

[Gaius I. Caesar]

I don't know if this will help but I watched these interesting videos on the Ismailis:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcpDOSMDhYM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_IBENpTR28

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HK-HWEazkzw

And this video talks about the history of the Ismailis and the lineage: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI3jXKukedc

Let me know if these videos helped you understand who the Ismailis are.

[reisiger]

I don't know if this will help but I watched these interesting videos on the Ismailis:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcpDOSMDhYM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_IBENpTR28

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HK-HWEazkzw

And this video talks about the history of the Ismailis and the lineage: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI3jXKukedc

Let me know if these videos helped you understand who the Ismailis are.

My brother, you rock!  Thank you so much! :)

[Gaius I. Caesar]

My brother, you rock!  Thank you so much! :)

Glad that I could help you out. :)

[Bukhari8k]

 

On 11/14/2015, 11:21:54, Sol 7 said:

Salam.

 

According to this authoritative fatwa of all the worlds major Orthodox Muslim Leaders (Including Ayatollah Khameni and Ayatollah Sistani) Otherwise known as The Amman Message, a unanimous agreement was reached. 

Followers of the Four Sunni Madhabs, The two Shi'a Madhabs, Real Tasawwuf, Salafism, and the Ashari'i are all true Muslims. And making takfir on any of them is haram. 

Ismailis (Aga Khanis) are among the sects which it is haram to make takfir on. As their school of thought is included under the Jafri'i madhab. 

See for yourselves. 

http://ammanmessage.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=74

They don't believe in Imam Jafar Sadiq (ra) so how can they belong to Jafari madhab?

What do they follow of Jafari madhab?

Specially Agha khani Ismailis (not bohra ismailis) = no salat, no fasting, no zakat, no hajj etc and not considering them obligatory at all. They just perform some rituals in their community centers or jamat khanas and pay certain forms of charity like cheenta, dasond etc. What do you call a person who openly denies the commandments of Allah and chooses to follow his spiritual leader (it was their leader or imam Hasan ala zikr as salam who abrogated Shariah for his followers right in the middle of Ramadan... these are not fables but facts that even Agha Khani ismailis do not deny.) They believing in a living imam who is thought to posses supernatural powers as a direct descendant and who is to be referred to in all cases rather than Quran (although he may be involved in scandals which are beyond his own controls).

i am not someone who is against amman message but this message may just be another good effort and not based entirely on the truth.

[reisiger]

11 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

 

They don't believe in Imam Jafar Sadiq (ra) so how can they belong to Jafari madhab?

What do they follow of Jafari madhab?

Specially Agha khani Ismailis (not bohra ismailis) = no salat, no fasting, no zakat, no hajj etc and not considering them obligatory at all. They just perform some rituals in their community centers or jamat khanas and pay certain forms of charity like cheenta, dasond etc. What do you call a person who openly denies the commandments of Allah and chooses to follow his spiritual leader (it was their leader or imam Hasan ala zikr as salam who abrogated Shariah for his followers right in the middle of Ramadan... these are not fables but facts that even Agha Khani ismailis do not deny.) They believing in a living imam who is thought to posses supernatural powers as a direct descendant and who is to be referred to in all cases rather than Quran (although he may be involved in scandals which are beyond his own controls).

i am not someone who is against amman message but this message may just be another good effort and not based entirely on the truth.

Salaam alaikum!

This is an excellent post.  Thank you for sharing it.  One thing that I know is that Imam al Sadiq (AS) was the last one that was in common between the "Seveners" and the "Twelvers," but the issue was whether or not the Imamate should have passed to Imam al Sadiq's (AS) son Ism'ail, who died before Imam al Sadiq (AS) or to his son Musa al-Kazim (AS).  I remember reading that the Agha Khan himself said that the Isma'ilis follow the Ja'fari fiqh, but I couldn't get my head around that along with the other issues you mentioned.  My understanding on reading further was that these things were still done although somewhat differently.  I don't know. 

The subject is fascinating, but I am not looking into that particular sect as something I would be wanting to be a part of.  I did come across an interesting argument as I was doing some research, and that was that the current Agha Khan traces his ancestry back through the Fatimids.  But I came across some evidence (not proof, but evidence) that the Fatimids' `Alid genealogy was fabricated.  If that were true, it would have heavy implications indeed, but Allahu'Alim.

 

ANyway, excellent post. Jazaak Allah Khair for sharing

R

[Bukhari8k]

2 minutes ago, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum!

This is an excellent post.  Thank you for sharing it.  One thing that I know is that Imam al Sadiq (AS) was the last one that was in common between the "Seveners" and the "Twelvers," but the issue was whether or not the Imamate should have passed to Imam al Sadiq's (AS) son Ism'ail, who died before Imam al Sadiq (AS) or to his son Musa al-Kazim (AS).  I remember reading that the Agha Khan himself said that the Isma'ilis follow the Ja'fari fiqh, but I couldn't get my head around that along with the other issues you mentioned.  My understanding on reading further was that these things were still done although somewhat differently.  I don't know. 

The subject is fascinating, but I am not looking into that particular sect as something I would be wanting to be a part of.  I did come across an interesting argument as I was doing some research, and that was that the current Agha Khan traces his ancestry back through the Fatimids.  But I came across some evidence (not proof, but evidence) that the Fatimids' `Alid genealogy was fabricated.  If that were true, it would have heavy implications indeed, but Allahu'Alim.

 

ANyway, excellent post. Jazaak Allah Khair for sharing

R

Thank you for the correction... you are right that the split came right after Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) and not with him.

With regards to their ancestry, It is accepted through reliable Sunni/Ithna Ashari sources that the young Ismail bin Jafar (ra) had died in his father's lifetime (perhaps when he was 9) and was buried in jannat al-baqi, Madinah. Ismailis do agree that there was even a procession held for him but maintain that it was a mock funeral (to protect him from his enemies). Including the above incident, there are other occasions when Ismaili leadership disappeared from public eyes. After Nizari/Mustaali split and after destruction of Alamut. Even, the genealogy tree approved by Agha khan III and published here in indo-pak gave an mismatched timeline for imams. you can see more evidence of this (by an ex-ismaili notable, who was murdered in Pakistan a few years ago) http://mostmerciful.com/?p=365

I have just seen some other disturbing facts. Alcohol is furnished to their customers in all (exclusively Agha khan owned) Serena hotels and resorts. His brother's Chateau de Bellerive (Geneva) offers the finest possible vintage wine. Also, his father (whose appointment as next imam was changed by his father Agha khan III due to his v. negative reputation) was penalized by a European court for having an illicit relations with a married woman (who later became her wife).  http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/27287-agha-khan39s-illegitimate-birth/

 

[Sol 7]

22 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

 

They don't believe in Imam Jafar Sadiq (ra) so how can they belong to Jafari madhab?

What do they follow of Jafari madhab?

Specially Agha khani Ismailis (not bohra ismailis) = no salat, no fasting, no zakat, no hajj etc and not considering them obligatory at all. They just perform some rituals in their community centers or jamat khanas and pay certain forms of charity like cheenta, dasond etc. What do you call a person who openly denies the commandments of Allah and chooses to follow his spiritual leader (it was their leader or imam Hasan ala zikr as salam who abrogated Shariah for his followers right in the middle of Ramadan... these are not fables but facts that even Agha Khani ismailis do not deny.) They believing in a living imam who is thought to posses supernatural powers as a direct descendant and who is to be referred to in all cases rather than Quran (although he may be involved in scandals which are beyond his own controls).

i am not someone who is against amman message but this message may just be another good effort and not based entirely on the truth.

Salaam. Brother.

1. They do actually believe in Imam Jafar al Sadiq. They just believe he was succeeded by Ismail ibn Jafar insted of Musa al Kadhim . Hence the name "Ismaili". 

2. They do Salat. But 3 times a day (the ones mentioned in the Qur'an) Twelvers themselves mix those prayers from time to time if I'm not mistaken.

3. They most certainly do fast at Ramadan.

4. They most certainly do give zakat.

5. They most certainly do make hajj (one to Mecca, one to Karbala, one to the prescence of the Aga Khan)

6. They practice different forms of worship you think are bid'ah or kufr. Declaring this is haram according to the Amman message.

7. Giving a fatwa you disagree with is not "abrogating Shariah."

8. The Aga Khan is to be referred to for explanations of the Quran just like you turn to Ayatollahs or me to my Pirs for their rulings, fatwas and interpretations. No difference. They do believe him to be infalliable and initiated in the mysteries. But thats how you're supposed to view an Imam. So there you go.

9. A reminder...going against the Amman message by making takfir on the Ismaili is disobedience of scholarly consensus. Just because  (hypothetically) I don't agree with the consensus of scholars about pork being haram doesnt mean I'm going to cook and eat pig every night for dinner.

Personally. I think the Amman message is entirely necessary. I'm sick and tired of Takfir flying here there and everywhere the moment I make my salaams over the internet. It's right for them to put and end to it and say "to each their own interpretation".

 

 

[reisiger]

Salaam brother! 

Thank you for the enlightening post!  Islam is like an ocean.  Every bit of knowledge I acquire is but a drop in a vast sea, so I thank you for sharing your knowledge, as I have so much yet to learn.  In shaa Allah

Jazaak Allah Khair

R

[Bukhari8k]

1 hour ago, Sol 7 said:

Salaam. Brother.

1. They do actually believe in Imam Jafar al Sadiq. They just believe he was succeeded by Ismail ibn Jafar insted of Musa al Kadhim . Hence the name "Ismaili". 

2. They do Salat. But 3 times a day (the ones mentioned in the Qur'an) Twelvers themselves mix those prayers from time to time if I'm not mistaken.

3. They most certainly do fast at Ramadan.

4. They most certainly do give zakat.

5. They most certainly do make hajj (one to Mecca, one to Karbala, one to the prescence of the Aga Khan)

6. They practice different forms of worship you think are bid'ah or kufr. Declaring this is haram according to the Amman message.

7. Giving a fatwa you disagree with is not "abrogating Shariah."

8. The Aga Khan is to be referred to for explanations of the Quran just like you turn to Ayatollahs or me to my Pirs for their rulings, fatwas and interpretations. No difference. They do believe him to be infalliable and initiated in the mysteries. But thats how you're supposed to view an Imam. So there you go.

9. A reminder...going against the Amman message by making takfir on the Ismaili is disobedience of scholarly consensus. Just because  (hypothetically) I don't agree with the consensus of scholars about pork being haram doesnt mean I'm going to cook and eat pig every night for dinner.

Personally. I think the Amman message is entirely necessary. I'm sick and tired of Takfir flying here there and everywhere the moment I make my salaams over the internet. It's right for them to put and end to it and say "to each their own interpretation".

1. Right you are. I have already talked about that in my last post. BTW one may ask that while they followed Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) who outlived ismail (ra) by 5 years, how could they be unaware of who their next divinely appointed imam was?

2.  Yes, i know they recite a dua composed of partial verses of Quran...  without wudu, without azan, with sajida but again without ruku and without qiblah direction. (all instructed in Quran). i used to live near a jamat khana, having a couple ismaili friends.

3. Brother they do not...... i am talking about Agha khanis and not Bohras who do. 

4&5. They perform hajj and give zakat??? well not really. May be just a few outta millions might have gone to makkah outta curiosity. I think that even their imam has never performed hajj.

6. Ayatollah Hussein Najafi has called them disbelievers (Ref: Qawaneen ash-Sharia Vol. 1) because those who say that the things made obligatory by Allah on His ummah are not obligatory on them bcos their peer said so, then they cease to be a part of the ummah. Historically, Fatimids used to follow Shariah and so do Bohra Ismailis till this day, so they do not fall under the category of current agha khani ismailis. please see http://mostmerciful.com/?p=380

7. sorry... i could not get it?

8. When you will see the lifestyle of Agha khans (they drink & sell wines in their hotels, resorts, chateaus// marry women without modesty and sometimes carry on their relations without even marrying // they betrayed Qajars, then Afghan Muslims by siding Britain, then betrayed someone who welcomed them i.e. Mir Naseer of Balochistan, then they ran away to Sindh and helped Britain in conquering Sindh, then went against Muslims of subcontinent by aiding Britain in war of Independence thus gaining titles from British Crown for their great service and loyalty (pls read Daftary, Farhad (1990). The Ismā‘īlīs: Their History and Doctrines. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 503–516). When you will look into then you will understand what sort of people would demand Quranic explanations from them. BTW agha khanis don't read Quran and call Aga khans as natiq Quran and the Quran in book form as samit quran. 

9. 200 ulemas brought together by Jordanian rulers (many amongst them controversial) do not make up consensus. Any ruler can do that. Remember, Amman message had a political aspect too.

[Sol 7]

12 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

1. Right you are. I have already talked about that in my last post. BTW one may ask that while they followed Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) who outlived ismail (ra) by 5 years, how could they be unaware of who their next divinely appointed imam was?

2.  Yes, i know they recite a dua composed of partial verses of Quran...  without wudu, without azan, with sajida but again without ruku and without qiblah direction. (all instructed in Quran). i used to live near a jamat khana, having a couple ismaili friends.

3. Brother they do not...... i am talking about Agha khanis and not Bohras who do. 

4&5. They perform hajj and give zakat??? well not really. May be just a few outta millions might have gone to makkah outta curiosity. I think that even their imam has never performed hajj.

6. Ayatollah Hussein Najafi has called them disbelievers (Ref: Qawaneen ash-Sharia Vol. 1) because those who say that the things made obligatory by Allah on His ummah are not obligatory on them bcos their peer said so, then they cease to be a part of the ummah. Historically, Fatimids used to follow Shariah and so do Bohra Ismailis till this day, so they do not fall under the category of current agha khani ismailis. please see http://mostmerciful.com/?p=380

7. sorry... i could not get it?

8. When you will see the lifestyle of Agha khans (they drink & sell wines in their hotels, resorts, chateaus// marry women without modesty and sometimes carry on their relations without even marrying // they betrayed Qajars, then Afghan Muslims by siding Britain, then betrayed someone who welcomed them i.e. Mir Naseer of Balochistan, then they ran away to Sindh and helped Britain in conquering Sindh, then went against Muslims of subcontinent by aiding Britain in war of Independence thus gaining titles from British Crown for their great service and loyalty (pls read Daftary, Farhad (1990). The Ismā‘īlīs: Their History and Doctrines. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 503–516). When you will look into then you will understand what sort of people would demand Quranic explanations from them. BTW agha khanis don't read Quran and call Aga khans as natiq Quran and the Quran in book form as samit quran. 

9. 200 ulemas brought together by Jordanian rulers (many amongst them controversial) do not make up consensus. Any ruler can do that. Remember, Amman message had a political aspect too.

Salaam.

1. My bad, didn't see that last post.

2. I'm going to need a source on that.

3, 4, 5. They practice all of those things. Read'em and weep. 

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ismailism-xi-ismaili-jurisprudence

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/ismailis.htm

http://ismailignosis.com/2013/03/03/the-esoterics-batin-of-prayer-from-salah-to-dua/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_pillars_of_Ismailism

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7466&sid=0f5b879f690b1b8f22cf5190c95dcec1

https://books.google.com/books?id=nogoRTTeODoC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=7+pillars+of+ismailism&source=bl&ots=CzQxCeFanE&sig=5q9Xod4rE8Rmqij3Gf7h_T6ines&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_ltXD8KrJAhVKlIgKHabBC3sQ6AEITTAG#v=onepage&q=7%20pillars%20of%20ismailism&f=false

6. Well, I guess Ayatollah Sistani, Ayatollah Khomeini, Ayatollah Muhammad Said al-Hakim, Ayatollah Al Fayyadh, Ayatollah Fadlallah, Ayatollah Al-Sadr and Ayatollah Lankarani disagree with him. 

7. Sorry, brother. I mean that if you disagree on how someone interprets Sharia'ah or accepts a form of the Sunna, that's fine. But is takfir really necessary?

8. Are you Afghani? or Balochi? Do you have some sort of cultural problem with them? I know fully well that they fought other Muslims and helped the British as an act of Alliance. And yes, they did 'betray the Balochis. I'm not defending them for historical actions. If you look at our history, no one is free from sin. not one sect of Islam. 

9. 200 of the worlds most powerful, most followed Marja, Grand Muftis, Shaykhs and Pirs makes up a meaningful consensus of some kind. Of course it had a political message. Uniting and defining Muslims worldwide. The horror. 

 

[Sol 7]

And yes, I am talking about the Nizari Ismailis. Or "Aga Khanis"

The ones who support Pluralism, freedom of thought, Love of one's fellow human, progressivism and who ruled a powerful and largely benevolent Caliphate.

Not the Dawoodi. Who circumcize women.

[reisiger]

52 minutes ago, Sol 7 said:

And yes, I am talking about the Nizari Ismailis. Or "Aga Khanis"

The ones who support Pluralism, freedom of thought, Love of one's fellow human, progressivism and who ruled a powerful and largely benevolent Caliphate.

Not the Dawoodi. Who circumcize women.

Salaam alaikum to you and to Bukhari8k! 

Brothers, I want to just put out there that you have both provided excellent and eloquent arguments and points.  Thank you for that.  These posts are enlightening and may Allah subhana wa ta'ala reward you (and all else who do) for sharing your knowledge on the subject.  One thing that the Holy Qur'an has made so clear that even my un-scholarly mind can grasp it is that there can be no compulsion in deen; it all belongs to Allah subhana wa ta'ala and He will judge amongst us all on those things in which we differed. 

In light of that, although I have had questions about whether or not there are groups who have practices that may be bid'ah or just outright un-Islamic, it is absolutely not my right to do takfir on anyone.  Irrespective of the madhab we follow, may Allah guide ALL of us who know there is no deity but He and that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is His final Prophet and Messenger to all truth.  May His Mercy prevail over our misdeeds and bad intentions, and may all glory and praise be to Him alone without partners. 

R

[Bukhari8k]

14 hours ago, Sol 7 said:

Salaam.

1. My bad, didn't see that last post.

2. I'm going to need a source on that.

3, 4, 5. They practice all of those things. Read'em and weep. 

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ismailism-xi-ismaili-jurisprudence

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/ismailis.htm

http://ismailignosis.com/2013/03/03/the-esoterics-batin-of-prayer-from-salah-to-dua/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_pillars_of_Ismailism

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7466&sid=0f5b879f690b1b8f22cf5190c95dcec1

https://books.google.com/books?id=nogoRTTeODoC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=7+pillars+of+ismailism&source=bl&ots=CzQxCeFanE&sig=5q9Xod4rE8Rmqij3Gf7h_T6ines&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_ltXD8KrJAhVKlIgKHabBC3sQ6AEITTAG#v=onepage&q=7%20pillars%20of%20ismailism&f=false

6. Well, I guess Ayatollah Sistani, Ayatollah Khomeini, Ayatollah Muhammad Said al-Hakim, Ayatollah Al Fayyadh, Ayatollah Fadlallah, Ayatollah Al-Sadr and Ayatollah Lankarani disagree with him. 

7. Sorry, brother. I mean that if you disagree on how someone interprets Sharia'ah or accepts a form of the Sunna, that's fine. But is takfir really necessary?

8. Are you Afghani? or Balochi? Do you have some sort of cultural problem with them? I know fully well that they fought other Muslims and helped the British as an act of Alliance. And yes, they did 'betray the Balochis. I'm not defending them for historical actions. If you look at our history, no one is free from sin. not one sect of Islam. 

9. 200 of the worlds most powerful, most followed Marja, Grand Muftis, Shaykhs and Pirs makes up a meaningful consensus of some kind. Of course it had a political message. Uniting and defining Muslims worldwide. The horror. 

 

 

7 hours ago, reisiger said:

Salaam alaikum to you and to Bukhari8k! 

W'salam

Brother i am just making a small change. i put point#8 on top at this stage because you have agreed that their imams did betray Muslims and helped disbelievers against Muslims.

8.     Al-Quran 28:86 "so never be a helper to the disbelievers." 
        Al-Quran 4:144 "O you who have believed, do not take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?"

and there are other verses as well. So this makes their case clear!

Anyone who helps a non-muslim against a muslim is a true hypocryte as per consensus of Sunni/Shia ulema. ( Yet if bcos of some unfortunate reasons, Muslims get involve into fighting each other... then they should try to stop it asap and try to be as accommodating as possible. Like, Sher-e-khuda Ali (ra) when won battle of jamal, did not make captives or claimed war booty.

I am not Afghan, Persian, Balochi, Sindhi etc I am a son of Adam (as) and when humans and specially Muslims suffer... i am hurt.

1. brother, can you share your view on the question that i had asked?

2. http://ismailignosis.com/ has an article on that mentioning incomplete/mixed verses of quran.

3,4,5. I have read them and actually laughed out. Let me give my view on links that you provided one by one

link#1 talks about the initial development of Ismaili/Fatimid jurisprudence in history (just as i mentioned in point#6) and does not compare it with current form of agha khani ismaili and bohra jurisprudence.

Link#2 Did you yourself read the link??? it says "considering their faith today Isma'ilism is better identified as an independent religion which officially has accepted the status of belonging ot Islam, by employing taqiyya."... "erroneously, classified as a branch of Shi'i Islam."... "Isma'ili faith has placed the imam in a position where he represent the will and power of God. Worship to God may better be done as worship of the imam, as he represents the face of God."

Link#3 The whole website is about esoteric ways of ismali'ism. They call themselves batini and believes that physical ibadat/actions are not obligatory. whereas Allah himself made such things obligatory on Ummah and the ummah shall thus reflect its belief through its actions. Both are must for us. When you ask them that why do their ladies (including women of their imams) don't use islamic dress code (e.g. veil) as commanded by Allah in Quran... they will say that the real veil means controlling your nafs and therefore it is not necessary to follow the Zahir! Which would mean that they consider their view superior to that of Allah's command!

Link#4 is wiki (rather unreliable)... well it says "Nizari Ismā'īliyya reason that it is up to the current imām to designate the style and form of prayer, and for this reason the current Nizari prayer is called Du'a" (whereas prophet Muhammad [saw] said " Pray as you have seen me praying" Sahih al-Bukhari). what is further written is that they don't make this dua 3 times for the same reason ithna ashari offer prayers 3 times. So you were technically incorrect about this.

Link#5 fifth is chatting by anonymous users who could just be anyone!

Link#6 the page of the clearly states that they don't accept the orders of wudu as in Quran!

6. we will have to see their detailed fatawas. There are several branches of ismailis and not all follow the same beliefs.

7. No... it is however necessary to know what things make someone kafir, munfiq or a mushrik and how do you keep yourself and your loved ones away from such things/people and help them know about it.

9. and that one of them was Aga khan himself (the wine-merchant). And would you mind us telling about which "Nizari" caliphate are you talking about exactly?? (i hope you are not talking about Fatimid, which was Ismaili and not exactly "Nizari" but infact in some ways "bohra/mustali" khilafat. I did not know about that practice amongst bohras.

Brother reisiger
I am also in favor of a united ummah but there are a few groups which just don't belong. BTW what is your take on Qadiyanis?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Bukhari8k

[Sol 7]

3 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

 

W'salam

Brother i am just making a small change. i put point#8 on top at this stage because you have agreed that their imams did betray Muslims and helped disbelievers against Muslims.

8.     Al-Quran 28:86 "so never be a helper to the disbelievers." 
        Al-Quran 4:144 "O you who have believed, do not take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?"

and there are other verses as well. So this makes their case clear!

Anyone who helps a non-muslim against a muslim is a true hypocryte as per consensus of Sunni/Shia ulema. ( Yet if bcos of some unfortunate reasons, Muslims get involve into fighting each other... then they should try to stop it asap and try to be as accommodating as possible. Like, Sher-e-khuda Ali (ra) when won battle of jamal, did not make captives or claimed war booty.

I am not Afghan, Persian, Balochi, Sindhi etc I am a son of Adam (as) and when humans and specially Muslims suffer... i am hurt.

1. brother, can you share your view on the question that i had asked?

2. http://ismailignosis.com/ has an article on that mentioning incomplete/mixed verses of quran.

3,4,5. I have read them and actually laughed out. Let me give my view on links that you provided one by one

link#1 talks about the initial development of Ismaili/Fatimid jurisprudence in history (just as i mentioned in point#6) and does not compare it with current form of agha khani ismaili and bohra jurisprudence.

Link#2 Did you yourself read the link??? it says "considering their faith today Isma'ilism is better identified as an independent religion which officially has accepted the status of belonging ot Islam, by employing taqiyya."... "erroneously, classified as a branch of Shi'i Islam."... "Isma'ili faith has placed the imam in a position where he represent the will and power of God. Worship to God may better be done as worship of the imam, as he represents the face of God."

Link#3 The whole website is about esoteric ways of ismali'ism. They call themselves batini and believes that physical ibadat/actions are not obligatory. whereas Allah himself made such things obligatory on Ummah and the ummah shall thus reflect its belief through its actions. Both are must for us. When you ask them that why do their ladies (including women of their imams) don't use islamic dress code (e.g. veil) as commanded by Allah in Quran... they will say that the real veil means controlling your nafs and therefore it is not necessary to follow the Zahir! Which would mean that they consider their view superior to that of Allah's command!

Link#4 is wiki (rather unreliable)... well it says "Nizari Ismā'īliyya reason that it is up to the current imām to designate the style and form of prayer, and for this reason the current Nizari prayer is called Du'a" (whereas prophet Muhammad [saw] said " Pray as you have seen me praying" Sahih al-Bukhari). what is further written is that they don't make this dua 3 times for the same reason ithna ashari offer prayers 3 times. So you were technically incorrect about this.

Link#5 fifth is chatting by anonymous users who could just be anyone!

Link#6 the page of the clearly states that they don't accept the orders of wudu as in Quran!

6. we will have to see their detailed fatawas. There are several branches of ismailis and not all follow the same beliefs.

7. No... it is however necessary to know what things make someone kafir, munfiq or a mushrik and how do you keep yourself and your loved ones away from such things/people and help them know about it.

9. and that one of them was Aga khan himself (the wine-merchant). And would you mind us telling about which "Nizari" caliphate are you talking about exactly?? (i hope you are not talking about Fatimid, which was Ismaili and not exactly "Nizari" but infact in some ways "bohra/mustali" khilafat. I did not know about that practice amongst bohras.

Brother reisiger
I am also in favor of a united ummah but there are a few groups which just don't belong. BTW what is your take on Qadiyanis?

Salaam.

1. I have no opinion. Theres nothing more to say.

2. Twelver Shias have Ayatollah that think the Qur'an is incomplete. Or at least it did.

 

3 4 and 5. 

Link 2 is extremely biased, admittedly. I actually did read that part. But that wasnt the Part I was focusing on. 

Link 3. They practice things you don't agree with. Great. They still practice fasting, prayer, Hajj, and Zakat. Which was my point.

Link 4 I don't practice this. But I'm trying to see whats wrong with this as they have their own Sunna (drawing on the same sources as Bukhari)

Link 5. But theyre Ismailis roight?

Link 6. But they still follow the 5 pillars!! Just not the same way as you.

6. Yeah but the Aga Khanis are the vast Majority. Them and the Dawoodi are pretty much the only ones left.

7. So its not necessary to make takfir...but its totally necessary to make takfir. I don't need to protect my loved ones from them. I support them more than I support the murdering rapists of ISIS or the hate vomiting Salafis, and I acknowledge that wjat they do hurts no one and really isn't heretical by my standards.

8. They were certainly closer in policy to the Fatimids. But I was talking of the Fatimids and Alamut. Both (in aqudah and shariah) identocal to the aga Khani today.

The only groups that don't belong would be people who dont worship Allah, dont believe in angels, reject the Prophets, reject the Quran and dont practice (any sort of) prayer, fasting and Hajj and Zakat.

As for the Ahmadis. Since they reject the seal of the prophets (debatably, since mirza is thought to be the Mahdi and Jesus. That's it) I would listen to their opinions, since they are generally not murderous or overly rigid. But I don't know whether I would call them Muslims.

 

 

 

 

[Bukhari8k]

12 hours ago, Sol 7 said:

Salaam.

1. I have no opinion. Theres nothing more to say.

2. Twelver Shias have Ayatollah that think the Qur'an is incomplete. Or at least it did.

 

3 4 and 5. 

Link 2 is extremely biased, admittedly. I actually did read that part. But that wasnt the Part I was focusing on. 

Link 3. They practice things you don't agree with. Great. They still practice fasting, prayer, Hajj, and Zakat. Which was my point.

Link 4 I don't practice this. But I'm trying to see whats wrong with this as they have their own Sunna (drawing on the same sources as Bukhari)

Link 5. But theyre Ismailis roight?

Link 6. But they still follow the 5 pillars!! Just not the same way as you.

6. Yeah but the Aga Khanis are the vast Majority. Them and the Dawoodi are pretty much the only ones left.

7. So its not necessary to make takfir...but its totally necessary to make takfir. I don't need to protect my loved ones from them. I support them more than I support the murdering rapists of ISIS or the hate vomiting Salafis, and I acknowledge that wjat they do hurts no one and really isn't heretical by my standards.

8. They were certainly closer in policy to the Fatimids. But I was talking of the Fatimids and Alamut. Both (in aqudah and shariah) identocal to the aga Khani today.

The only groups that don't belong would be people who dont worship Allah, dont believe in angels, reject the Prophets, reject the Quran and dont practice (any sort of) prayer, fasting and Hajj and Zakat.

As for the Ahmadis. Since they reject the seal of the prophets (debatably, since mirza is thought to be the Mahdi and Jesus. That's it) I would listen to their opinions, since they are generally not murderous or overly rigid. But I don't know whether I would call them Muslims.

2. anyone who thinks Quran is incomplete is a disbeliever. Juts curious... which ayatollah?

3-7. It is not about my choice or their choice, it is about submission to Allah's choice as recorded in Quran. It is not about bowing down to the likes and dislikes of an individual whose lifestyle and vision is totally different than that of the most favorite man (pbuh) of Allah. Yeah i guess in Link#5 of ismaili.net, they are Ismailis and lets see what they have to say

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=88

shamsu

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:19 pm    Post subject: Kitabullah Ya Aly Madad star....  Yes, Allah kept the 10 paras of Quran with him. Any Muslim can tell you that. Imam SMS has farman that those 10 paras have been explained by Pir Sadardeen in his Ruhani Ginans.  Imam Aly Shah has made a Farman that the essence of Quran Pir Sadardeen has given us in his Ruhani Ginans and the skin and bones have been left for dogs.

congratulations!

8. which policy? and No Fatimi Caliph was a nizari... Nizaris captured Alamut fortress and controlled a very small area with a couple of other fortresses in qazvin with limited operational scope in assassinations aka hashashiniyat. This cannot be termed Caliphate. Alamut.... yes but You are grossly mistaken that present day Agha khanis share the identical aqeedah and shareeah of Fatimids bcos fatimid did not skip namaz or other tenets and did not teach such kind of esoteric concepts. And it is also misleading to claim that ismailis follow Fiqah Jafariya. Bcos if they do then 12wers don't.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Bukhari8k

[Sol 7]

13 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

2. anyone who thinks Quran is incomplete is a disbeliever. Juts curious... which ayatollah?

3-7. It is not about my choice or their choice, it is about submission to Allah's choice as recorded in Quran. It is not about bowing down to the likes and dislikes of an individual whose lifestyle and vision is totally different than that of the most favorite man (pbuh) of Allah. Yeah i guess in Link#5 of ismaili.net, they are Ismailis and lets see what they have to say

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=88

shamsu

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:19 pm    Post subject: Kitabullah Ya Aly Madad star....  Yes, Allah kept the 10 paras of Quran with him. Any Muslim can tell you that. Imam SMS has farman that those 10 paras have been explained by Pir Sadardeen in his Ruhani Ginans.  Imam Aly Shah has made a Farman that the essence of Quran Pir Sadardeen has given us in his Ruhani Ginans and the skin and bones have been left for dogs.

congratulations!

8. which policy? and No Fatimi Caliph was a nizari... Nizaris captured Alamut and ruled a very small area in qazvin with limited operational scope in assassinations. Alamut.... yes but You are grossly mistaken that present day Agha khanis share the identical aqeedah and shareeah of Fatimids bcos fatimid did not skip namaz or other tenets and did not teach such kind of esoteric concepts. And it is also misleading to claim that ismailis follow Fiqah Jafariya. Bcos if they do then 12wers don't.

2. guess Grand Ayatollah Agah Bozorg al Tehrani was a disbeliever then, As is Shaykh . And Some of the Imams as well . 

HADDADIAN ABDORREZA; MOADDAB SEYYED REZA. "A STUDY ON TRADITIONS OF DISTORTION IN AYYASHI EXEGESIS". HADITH STUDIES 4 (8): 141—166.

I dont agree with that opinion. As I dont agree that the Quran is incomplete or ommitted or corrupted. But I don't think the opinion that it is is kufr. 

3-7. Well the sunnah according to you anyway. Not them. Is your sunnah just objectively better than theirs?

They bow down to Allah,and dont worship the Aga Khan as a God at all. A Pope figure, certainly. But not God at all. 

8. They did actually mix prayers. But if you reasearched Nizari Ismailism, you would k ow that the number of prayers changes based on the ruling of the current Imam.

They absolutely emphasised esoteric concepts. Thats the point of Ismailism. They're Batiniyya. Esotericism is part of the bloody doctrine, Brother.

[Bukhari8k]

1 hour ago, Sol 7 said:

2. guess Grand Ayatollah Agah Bozorg al Tehrani was a disbeliever then, As is Shaykh . And Some of the Imams as well . 

HADDADIAN ABDORREZA; MOADDAB SEYYED REZA. "A STUDY ON TRADITIONS OF DISTORTION IN AYYASHI EXEGESIS". HADITH STUDIES 4 (8): 141—166.

I dont agree with that opinion. As I dont agree that the Quran is incomplete or ommitted or corrupted. But I don't think the opinion that it is is kufr. 

3-7. Well the sunnah according to you anyway. Not them. Is your sunnah just objectively better than theirs?

They bow down to Allah,and dont worship the Aga Khan as a God at all. A Pope figure, certainly. But not God at all. 

8. They did actually mix prayers. But if you reasearched Nizari Ismailism, you would k ow that the number of prayers changes based on the ruling of the current Imam.

They absolutely emphasised esoteric concepts. Thats the point of Ismailism. They're Batiniyya. Esotericism is part of the bloody doctrine, Brother.

2. then so be it. just feel sorry for all those. 

---

Regarding your opinion:

Allah promises in quran "We have without doubt, sent down the message and We will assuredly guard it" (15:9)

if i say that i believe in a judge, who is a true and genuine judge and can never make a wrong judgement yet but i do not believe in his judgement... what that be called believing?

in the end i would again like to use Quran as evidence. The following verse of Surah Ale Imran of Quran perfectly sums up all the argument.

It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book (Verses of Al-Ahkam/commandments like Al-Faraid or Al-Hudud etc.); and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord.” And none receive admonition except men of understanding. 

[Sol 7]

On 11/26/2015, 7:58:51, Bukhari8k said:

2. then so be it. just feel sorry for all those. 

---

Regarding your opinion:

Allah promises in quran "We have without doubt, sent down the message and We will assuredly guard it" (15:9)

if i say that i believe in a judge, who is a true and genuine judge and can never make a wrong judgement yet but i do not believe in his judgement... what that be called believing?

in the end i would again like to use Quran as evidence. The following verse of Surah Ale Imran of Quran perfectly sums up all the argument.

It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book (Verses of Al-Ahkam/commandments like Al-Faraid or Al-Hudud etc.); and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord.” And none receive admonition except men of understanding. 

With all due respect brother. 

Islam doesn't belong to you. There are other Hadith besides yours. Esoteric ones. But still. 

That Qur'an verse can be used against literally any sect.

[Bukhari8k]

6 hours ago, Sol 7 said:

With all due respect brother. 

Islam doesn't belong to you. There are other Hadith besides yours. Esoteric ones. But still. 

That Qur'an verse can be used against literally any sect.

This is objectionable and shows your lack of awareness on deen-e-Islam... Islam belongs to all those individuals who welcome it "the way it is" (to submit/surrender oneself to the teachings of Quran and Hadith/Sunnah) and is far away from those who judge or try to mold it according to their likes/dislikes, perceptions, personal views/nafs. It is you who never took any help from Quran/Hadith while arguing in support of esoteric ways or for whatever you wrote above while missing many credible points from the discussion... If you consider yourself a sufi then may be your sheikh did not tell you that Shariah is above Tareeqah. And tareeqah has to be inline with the tareeqah of pir on top of the list otherwise it cannot be called a chain.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Haji 2003
Not very polite.

[Sol 7]

2 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

This is objectionable and shows your lack of awareness on deen-e-Islam... Islam belongs to all those individuals who welcome it "the way it is" (to submit/surrender oneself to the teachings of Quran and Hadith/Sunnah) and is far away from those who judge or try to mold it according to their likes/dislikes, perceptions, personal views/nafs. .

everyone does that.

Thats how religion in general works. You cant just get rid of human perception. Everyone " molds it ". I'm sorry but you cannot be this retarded and then call me the ignorant one.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Haji 2003
Not very polite.

[Bukhari8k]

1 hour ago, Sol 7 said:

everyone does that.

Thats how religion in general works. You cant just get rid of human perception. Everyone " molds it ". I'm sorry but you cannot be this retarded and then call me the ignorant one.

may be your religion but we call it deen which is not a machine that sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. Sitting amongst some decent people should help you on the subject and otherwise.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Bukhari8k

[reisiger]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2015‎ ‎3‎:‎38‎:‎24‎, Bukhari8k said:

 

W'salam

Brother i am just making a small change. i put point#8 on top at this stage because you have agreed that their imams did betray Muslims and helped disbelievers against Muslims.

8.     Al-Quran 28:86 "so never be a helper to the disbelievers." 
        Al-Quran 4:144 "O you who have believed, do not take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case?"

and there are other verses as well. So this makes their case clear!

Anyone who helps a non-muslim against a muslim is a true hypocryte as per consensus of Sunni/Shia ulema. ( Yet if bcos of some unfortunate reasons, Muslims get involve into fighting each other... then they should try to stop it asap and try to be as accommodating as possible. Like, Sher-e-khuda Ali (ra) when won battle of jamal, did not make captives or claimed war booty.

I am not Afghan, Persian, Balochi, Sindhi etc I am a son of Adam (as) and when humans and specially Muslims suffer... i am hurt.

1. brother, can you share your view on the question that i had asked?

2. http://ismailignosis.com/ has an article on that mentioning incomplete/mixed verses of quran.

3,4,5. I have read them and actually laughed out. Let me give my view on links that you provided one by one

link#1 talks about the initial development of Ismaili/Fatimid jurisprudence in history (just as i mentioned in point#6) and does not compare it with current form of agha khani ismaili and bohra jurisprudence.

Link#2 Did you yourself read the link??? it says "considering their faith today Isma'ilism is better identified as an independent religion which officially has accepted the status of belonging ot Islam, by employing taqiyya."... "erroneously, classified as a branch of Shi'i Islam."... "Isma'ili faith has placed the imam in a position where he represent the will and power of God. Worship to God may better be done as worship of the imam, as he represents the face of God."

Link#3 The whole website is about esoteric ways of ismali'ism. They call themselves batini and believes that physical ibadat/actions are not obligatory. whereas Allah himself made such things obligatory on Ummah and the ummah shall thus reflect its belief through its actions. Both are must for us. When you ask them that why do their ladies (including women of their imams) don't use islamic dress code (e.g. veil) as commanded by Allah in Quran... they will say that the real veil means controlling your nafs and therefore it is not necessary to follow the Zahir! Which would mean that they consider their view superior to that of Allah's command!

Link#4 is wiki (rather unreliable)... well it says "Nizari Ismā'īliyya reason that it is up to the current imām to designate the style and form of prayer, and for this reason the current Nizari prayer is called Du'a" (whereas prophet Muhammad [saw] said " Pray as you have seen me praying" Sahih al-Bukhari). what is further written is that they don't make this dua 3 times for the same reason ithna ashari offer prayers 3 times. So you were technically incorrect about this.

Link#5 fifth is chatting by anonymous users who could just be anyone!

Link#6 the page of the clearly states that they don't accept the orders of wudu as in Quran!

6. we will have to see their detailed fatawas. There are several branches of ismailis and not all follow the same beliefs.

7. No... it is however necessary to know what things make someone kafir, munfiq or a mushrik and how do you keep yourself and your loved ones away from such things/people and help them know about it.

9. and that one of them was Aga khan himself (the wine-merchant). And would you mind us telling about which "Nizari" caliphate are you talking about exactly?? (i hope you are not talking about Fatimid, which was Ismaili and not exactly "Nizari" but infact in some ways "bohra/mustali" khilafat. I did not know about that practice amongst bohras.

Brother reisiger
I am also in favor of a united ummah but there are a few groups which just don't belong. BTW what is your take on Qadiyanis?

Salaam alaikum!

Wow.. that's a good question.  I don't like to judge at all, but I feel like the original Ahmadi movement was based on exaggeration.  But I have heard arguments that said that Ghulam Ahmed never claimed anything more than being a reformer.  The Lahore Ahmadiyya movement seems to be more in line with mainstream Islamic teachings.  Out of caution, I would say that I would not accept their distinct doctrines, but not necessarily everything that they do.  When I was first considering Islam, so many of the resources I read were from them.  They never got into their specific teachings, though.  I was warned away by the Imam at the masjid where I made Shahada.  He said that they had deviated outside of Islam and as such, their works were not sound.

I can see how that would make sense.  Some of the best books I've read about the Twelver school were written or translated by Isma'ili authors, so I don't dismiss them out of hand.  But I am more solidly grounded in aqidah and history than I had been previously, so I can recognize arguments that I don't believe are sound.  It's similar to how in hadith books (because I was originally Hanafi), there are narrators that I don't trust.  I don't disparage them or speak ill of them, but I don't trust them.  Specifically thinking of Abu Hurayrah there.  Now it is possible that everything he narrated was sound.  I have a ton of respect for Imam Bukhari especially, but while I appreciate his methodology, I think certain narrators are problematic.  But just as I accept Al Kafi, I also see hadith books through a Shi'a lens and that is that only the Holy Qur'an can be considered "sahih," and we must consider hadith in light of the Qur'an.  Whatever contradicts it must be rejected.

But, my brother, I am not a scholar and the least in knowledge among you (astaghfirullah).

Wasalaam

R

[Sol 7]

On 12/1/2015, 8:27:55, Bukhari8k said:

may be your religion but we call it deen which is not a machine that sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. Sitting amongst some decent people should help you on the subject and otherwise.

Why is it that people here...You know what? Muslims in general.... have to act like their Traditions/Interpretations are the "One True Islam" and act all hoity toity to others because of it? 

You literally have no more valid an excuse or interpretation than me. 

Have Shi'as learned nothing from being hatefully made takfir on after being accused of worshipping Ali and The Imams  by close-minded Sunni Mullahs for centuries (and today)?

From experiencing that, I would think you would have the empathy and understanding not to repeat that mindset on others.

But we never learn do we? 

 

 

[LeftCoastMom]

^ Just popping in to say....I kinda like Sufis. One of my professors in religion ( Christian himself) always had us start class with Sufi stuff.  

[Sol 7]

1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ Just popping in to say....I kinda like Sufis. One of my professors in religion ( Christian himself) always had us start class with Sufi stuff.  

Salaam Alaikum. 

I appreciate the sentiment. :).

[ChristianVisitor]

The things that you can learn here. I thought Sufis never took up arms for any reason. I guess there are such things as "warrior" Sufis.

[truthOfIsmails]

On 8/18/2009 at 9:54 PM, 89jghur32 said:

False. He was a Twelver Shia...he was born into an Ismaili family, but converted in later life to Imamiyyah. Although, he wasn't a practicing Muslim.

 

On 8/18/2009 at 9:54 PM, 89jghur32 said:

False. He was a Twelver Shia...he was born into an Ismaili family, but converted in later life to Imamiyyah. Although, he wasn't a practicing Muslim.

please he is the imam and how can you say that he is not?I think if your memory is not old after imam jafar sadiq next imam was to be appointed and the shia imam aga khan is from this family ; its just they both splitted but they have the same blood and no1 can deny that.We have firm believe in Allah and we belive that prophet muhammad is the last prophet and we also belive in kalma. Just because you guys are saying we are not muslims this wont make us non muslims.yesterday i checked quran in my friends house he was sunni the meaning was different as compared to the rest of quran translation. Allah ka koof kara apny ghaltiyo ki maafi maango aur sudhar jao loogo is tarah larny aur jagarh ny seh jahanm ki agh tum loogo ko nae bakshe gy
Dear sunni or shia : Differences in beliefs don’t mean people should kill each other, Islam doesn't allow this, We are all Muslims therefore we will have to accept this reality (of religious differences). We are here to preach love and respect, and not hatred . plus you extermist my friend is an ismaili he is such a role model for me.In the time of prophet there were no sects no shia or sunni.Now a days people dont have time to offer prayer because they are becoming modren but on the other hand in ismaili reiligion if u see they can recite tasbih , names of Allah ; if they are busy then only.But the other muslim communtiy shia and sunni the will pray if the have time and if not skip them.At least Ismailis dont do this they try there best to fulfill the reiligious duty.They are the one who meditate every day before there prayer or after spending sometime with Allah.You cant judge a reiligon ; Allah knows the best -he knows which is unknown to a man.

[truthOfIsmails]

On 11/23/2015 at 7:56 PM, Bukhari8k said:

 

They don't believe in Imam Jafar Sadiq (ra) so how can they belong to Jafari madhab?

What do they follow of Jafari madhab?

Specially Agha khani Ismailis (not bohra ismailis) = no salat, no fasting, no zakat, no hajj etc and not considering them obligatory at all. They just perform some rituals in their community centers or jamat khanas and pay certain forms of charity like cheenta, dasond etc. What do you call a person who openly denies the commandments of Allah and chooses to follow his spiritual leader (it was their leader or imam Hasan ala zikr as salam who abrogated Shariah for his followers right in the middle of Ramadan... these are not fables but facts that even Agha Khani ismailis do not deny.) They believing in a living imam who is thought to posses supernatural powers as a direct descendant and who is to be referred to in all cases rather than Quran (although he may be involved in scandals which are beyond his own controls).

i am not someone who is against amman message but this message may just be another good effort and not based entirely on the truth.

we do pay zakat and more than you.we pay every month if u dont know the meaning of dasond or chahntah they dont speak
hazrat ali said: a wise man thinks before he speaks and a fool thinks after he has spoken.Basicaaly dasond means zakat.And we do fast.salat is another form of prayer which is known as dua if you dont know
and we belive in the pillars of islam 
we believe in prophet that he is the last messenger
and we do belive in imam jafair sadddiq 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by truthOfIsmails