Are Ismaili muslims?

[ImamAliwabas]

Anyone who says the la ilaha ila Allah is a muslim. Thats what the imams AS taught. So stop acting like yr god and have the keys to paradise in yr back pockets to janna, There are 1.6 billion muslims in the world and we are only a drop so stop bieng wahabis and judging others.

[89jghur32]

Ismailis do say Ya Ali Madad (O Ali Help). It is how you look at it. For you it may be biddat, but for us it is sunnat. We believe that Ali was send as a help from Allah to man kind. So asking Ali’s help is same as asking Allah’s help. If a post man brings me a post, I will not refuse to get help from post man in getting my post, only because the post is suppose to be delivered by post office. Post man is the part of the post office. So same thing with Ali and Allah. Asking help from Ali also means asking help from Allah.

This is problematic. Clarify for me what you're doing here.

By saying Ya Ali Madad is Ali's (ra) help being invoked as in he's (ra) the granter or is his help being invoked as a way for your du'a tor each Allah (swt)? If it's the first, then that's shirk. If it's the second, then it is accepted.

[JimJam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more? Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj? I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.

I was doing so looking into on this topic the past month or so. Here, you might find these helpful

http://www.amaana.org/history/history1.htm

http://www.amaana.org/articles/Ismailidawa.htm

They are kind of exotic, but how they all squabbled for the tittle of Imam, how Fatmid prince fought Fatmid prince to claim the title of Imam, makes it all seem like a sham.

This site explain the unique & complex beliefs of the Ismailis pretty well

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/news/120/64/Qur-an-and-Isma-ili-ta-wil/d,pdb_detail_article/

[JimJam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more? Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj? I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.

Ok. I also found these sites to be interesting sources of their history. The third is the most detailed but its also the most rabidly anti-Ismail

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab17 (Western Source)

http://www.iranmilitary.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4966 (Twelver Shia source)

http://www.islamawareness.net/Deviant/Ismailis/ismailis.html (Sunni/Salafi Source)

[JimJam]

I got this information on internet and i was so shocked sounds like is aghakhanis in real mess

Dear Brothers-Sisters

As-Salaamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuhu

May I for the sake of Allah (swt), His Deen and the Muslim Ummaah, request you to please consider the following facts very carefully and decide on your responsibility before Allah (swt) in this matter.

I am a revert to Islam. I was an Ismaili before - a follower of the Aga Khan. And I perceive an important Da'wah responsibility which the majority of Muslims are for some reason or other are ignoring. I am not getting you into petty sectarian issues, but a very important matter - please judge for yourself:

1. The Ismailis (followers of the Aga Khan) all professedly believe that the Qur'an was time bound and was not meant to be a Universal message for all times. They believe that their spiritual leader, Karim Aga Khan, is the "walking - talking Qur'an" and his "religious pronouncements", whatever they may be, are the "guidance" for the present times. The fundamental article of faith that there will not be any NEW revelations or "wahy" after the Qur'an, is being completely violated by the Ismailis.

2. The Aga Khan has officially Declared himself, before his followers, as the "Mazhar of Allah on earth". The word "mazhar" means "copy" or "manifest". Consequently, these Ismailis who call themselves Muslims do "sujood" before him. So even the primary axiomatic principle of Tawheed is being fundamentally and formally violated by them.

3. The Ismailis are not instructed to offer the Islamic Salaah, observe Saum or perform Hajj. They have replaced Salaah with certain shirk-infested Dua'as (thrice a day). They are told that their Hajj is a personal "Glimpse" (Deedaar) of Karim Aga Khan.

4. The Aga Khan and his appointees 'forgive the sins' of the followers on regular basis. Ismailis are misled into believing that they will not be questioned on the Day of Judgment for the sins that are already forgiven in their Jamatkhanas (community centers). Forgiving of sins is the exclusive prerogative and privilege of Allah (swt) alone. Qur'an 3:135.

5. Against this backdrop, most of the poor (spiritually poor) Ismailis who are not introduced to al-Furqan are confused and misguided. Hence, Ismailis are very easy prey to missionary efforts by various Christian groups and Baha'is. I have known a couple of young ex-Ismailis who are today preaching "Pauline Christianity" to Ismailis as evangelical missionaries.

6. Karim Aga Khan's own daughter Zahra having married a practising Christian has opened the gates for young Ismailis girls to follow the footsteps of a family member of their beloved Imam-e-Zaman. The parents of the Ismaili girls who wish to marry outside of Islam have no recourse but to let them go.

7. The Aga Khan has made Halaal for the Ismailis that which Allah has made Haraam for the humans. Taking of interest (usury) is not forbidden by the religious instruction classes run by the "Tariqaah" board of the Ismailis. As a matter of fact, the much publicized "Venture Capital" program (details on the website of FORBES Magazine - search under "Aga Khan"), of loaning funds on interest by the AKFED (Aga Khan Fund & Economic Development), has been a great success. Similar entrepreneurial projects are now being actively promoted and introduced to poor Muslims of Tajikistan and neighboring areas.

8. The Muslim Ummaah and the various Muslim leaders are not fully aware of these Un-Islamic acts and beliefs of this community of less than two million members, who claim to be the Ismaili Muslims. Surprisingly, their leader Aga Khan claims himself to be a spiritual leader of 15 million Muslims and a Direct Descendant of Prophet Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).

9. Earlier, one did not have authentic books on Ismailism, but it is not so anymore. There are two authentic books as well as one comprehensive web site exposing the inner practices of the Ismailis and the Proclamations (Farmans) of the Aga Khans. Hence, now you have no "hujjah" argument or excuse left before Allah (swt) for not taking up the task of inviting the misguided "Ismaili Muslims" towards the Deen of Allah (swt) and not safeguarding them from committing unpardonable sin of Shirk.

10. The Aga Khan in collaboration with so many Western powers and aid, has set up the world-wide Aga Khan Development Network (AKDN) which runs several institutions and service companies both in the profit and not for profit sectors. This network is very actively operating in Pakistan, India, Tanzania, Uganda, Kenya and Bangladesh, and has now started concentrating its efforts in Tajikistan and the neighbouring areas where there is a concentration of Muslims who have not known or openly practised Islam for the decades. By taking up economical, social, educational and rural development efforts through NGOs (Non-Govt. Organizations) within the AKDN, the Ismailis and the Aga Khan have gained wide acceptance amongst these countries and masses. Hence this urgent appeal.

11. Now all these beneficiaries are "obliged and grateful" to the Aga Khan and his followers and his organizations for the much-needed schools, medical centers, hospitals, various projects and programmes. In this manner they are penetrating and infiltrating the support system - and one fine day, the Muslim Ummaah will wake up to the unexpected realization that they have a community of so called Muslims, practicing the Un-Islamic Tariqaah, in charge of all core and support activities. Each of these much-needed projects will have the photos of Aga Khan decorating the walls.

In the name of Allah (swt) and Islam, kindly urge our Brothers and Sisters to do Da'wah to the Ismailis, who otherwise will, on the day of judgement, hold us responsible for not conveying the Revealed Truth to them. Dear Brother/Sister, you know much more on the subject than what little I have learnt since reverting to the Deen of Allah (swt). It hurts to see the misguided simple minded people die on SHIRK because we did not amply warn them before their deaths.

I am aware of your stature as a religious leader of repute, respectability and acceptance among Muslim Masses, and hence have sought to put this appeal to you. I request you to seriously consider this request and initiate all steps that you consider Wajib and appropriate. To spread the "Truth" and eradicate "Tagoot" is a significant, major Sunnah of the prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).

May I also request you to please forward this e-mail to at least five (if not all) of your Muslim friends and activists so that greater awareness of this issue is created, and this request reaches a wider audience. Please do so. JazakAllah."

In case you wish to seek any further clarification please feel free to e-mail a message. I will Insh'Allah respond. I apologize in advance, if this happens to be a repeat message.

May Allah (swt) shower His Choicest Blessings on the entire Muslim Ummah. May Almighty Allah bless you and keep you in the service of Islam and Muslims. Aameen.

Jazak'Allah and Was salaam,

Yours in the Service of Islam,

Akbarally Meherally

You know, that might just be propaganda, Since my father used to work alongside Ismailis and according to him, they did pray and fast. And they also considered drinking as haram. According to them, the current Agha Khan is more inclined towards having the Nizaris move back towards shariat than his predecessors. But the current Agha Khan is a good organizer, i'll say that much. Through their charity in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Central Asia and China, they're slowly trying to wean some of the most impoverished, neglected people in the world living in the Pamir region into their fold. The Agha Khan donated an absolutely enormous more money to Afghanistan, from what i heard. A new Alamut maybe?

[yaalimaulaali]

Sure the jamatkhana's maybe built facing the Kaba, but you don't face it when offering prayers. That's why in your jamatkhana's there are people facing in every direction when your Ismaili du'a is being said. Atleast that's how it is in North America.

The roomer that all ismailis do not face kaba came from that one jamat khan that was bulid by mistake in North America. Now it’s been fixed. All Ismailis pray facing kaba.

Your imam has forbidden the consumption of alcohol, thank God. But why hasn't he forbidden its selling, which he himself does through his hotels?

There are many Christian sects which believe drinking wine is holly, also vast majority of Christians believe its ok to drink alcohol once in a while. Ismailis don't believe in enforcing there believe on others, we don't drink it because we don't believe in it. But we are not going to shut the doors of our hotels if a Christian who believe its their right to drink alcohol. We will not force them not to drinking it. We want to see the other face of islam which is not horrifying as wahabism. Once they will come in and will see other good things inshallah one day, they will stop drinking wine. We don’t want Christian airlines to stop Muslims from flying to holy places around the world; because their religion does not permit then to help someone go anywhere other than Christian holy places.

Also drinking alcohol does not make a muslim kafir let go selling it. Alcohol is bad for your own body and if taken in excess it can also harm you entire family. If I am in a hotel business and if it is custom and legal to sell alcohol I may end up selling it. Because otherwise I will be out of business.

A lot of our Hajj money goes to funding wahabies, but that will not make us quit going to Hajj. I think funding wahabies is more harmful then allowing alcohol.

The problem is your imam does not make fasting obligatory like he makes the 'du'a' you recite everyday obligatory.That is unacceptable. Many many Ismailis don't fast because of that fact. You don't pray namaz. You pray your du'a which one of your pirs composed and your imam approved.

He is trying to make fasting compulsory to the part of the ismaili comunity that does not following things strictly. But again Khoja ismaili are just a minority and majority still fast regularly. Same thing with Namaz. He is having hard time in making it implemented everywhere. So now he is syntactically do this. I will explain this in my next post.

[yaalimaulaali]

This is problematic. Clarify for me what you're doing here.

By saying Ya Ali Madad is Ali's (ra) help being invoked as in he's (ra) the granter or is his help being invoked as a way for your du'a tor each Allah (swt)? If it's the first, then that's shirk. If it's the second, then it is accepted.

I can't tell you about all the ismaili, as believes may be different from person to person. Here are some of the believes

1. Some ismailis when they say Ya Ali Madad, they are following the sunnat of Rasul, they are asking help from Allah directly, but they are referring to a particular type of help that Allah offered to Muhammad when Islam was in deep trouble and Muhammad was having hard time in conquering khybar, and after getting the help from Allah Muhammad conquered it in just 3 days, they are also referring to the help that Allah gave Muhammad when Allah asked Ali to sleep on the bed of Muhammad when Muhammad migrated. When they are saying Ya Ali Madad, they are actually asking Allah directly, the kind of blessing that Allah offered Muhammad.

2. Some ismailis when they say Ya Ali Madad, they are asking Ali's intervention in requesting help from Allah.

3. Some ismailis when they say Ya Ali Madad, with Ali they mean one of the 99 names of Allah which is also Ali.

[yaalimaulaali]

When many Muslims refused to obey the command of Allah in gadir -e-khum. The command that made Islam perfect. They are not kafirs, then how come ismailis are kafirs?

This is crazy. Let Allah be the judge of the faith. Lets not play Allah.

We should break the walls and build bridges. Lets not look at the small differences we have. Lets concentrate on big similarities.

Allah wanted diverse communities, that's why he has divided us into communities.

This is what Quran says -

O mankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that you might get to know one another. Surely the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous. Allah is All-Knowledgeable, All-Aware.[

Lets stop blaming one another. Shia, Sunni, Sufi, we are all muslims. We all believe in one Allah, we all believe that Muhammad was our prophet, we all believe in not harming others, we all believe in respecting our parents, we all believe in honest and truthfulness and one of the most important which we keep forgetting - we all believe in charity and helping those who are in need.

[Ishraq]

The roomer that all ismailis do not face kaba came from that one jamat khan that was bulid by mistake in North America. Now it’s been fixed. All Ismailis pray facing kaba.

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No they don’t. The Ismailis when praying inside the jamatkhana, although it may be facing the Kaba, are themselves not facing the Kaba. Some are facing, others are not. They pray almost in every direction, i.e. people leaning up against the walls, etc, not to mention the leaders, i.e. mukhi, etc, sitting at the front, the person reciting the dua, and etc, are all not facing the Kaba. They are actually facing the opposite direction. This is how it is in every jamatkhana in North America and other continents, especially as regards the leaders sitting at the front. You know this better than me.

There are many Christian sects which believe drinking wine is holly, also vast majority of Christians believe its ok to drink alcohol once in a while. Ismailis don't believe in enforcing there believe on others, we don't drink it because we don't believe in it. But we are not going to shut the doors of our hotels if a Christian who believe its their right to drink alcohol. We will not force them not to drinking it. We want to see the other face of islam which is not horrifying as wahabism. Once they will come in and will see other good things inshallah one day, they will stop drinking wine. We don’t want Christian airlines to stop Muslims from flying to holy places around the world; because their religion does not permit then to help someone go anywhere other than Christian holy places.

----------------

To this pathetic excuse I will simply reply with the words of one the posters in this forum:

“[…] please, spare us the "it's because it's ok in other people's cultures". When has other people's cultures somehow overruled the law of God and justified profiting from something which is a great sin in our religion. Would it be ok if he ran a prostitution ring in Amsterdam, since that's legal there too?”

He is trying to make fasting compulsory to the part of the ismaili comunity that does not following things strictly. But again Khoja ismaili are just a minority and majority still fast regularly. Same thing with Namaz. He is having hard time in making it implemented everywhere. So now he is syntactically do this. I will explain this in my next post.

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Not fasting is not limited to the Khoja community. You simply haven’t been around. Ismailis everywhere generally don’t think much of fasting, a problem which goes back to your imam. In fact, this is so true to the point that certain Ismailis would not fast on purpose to disassociate themselves from other Muslims. They would not follow the prescriptions of the Sharia’ as sort of a way to identify themselves amongst themselves.

I will deal with this so called ‘new namaz’ that your imam is thinking about introducing into your practices later. There’s a deeper problem involved in this issue. But for now, we maintain that the dua’ you recite is completely unwarranted.

[Ishraq]

Lets stop blaming one another. Shia, Sunni, Sufi, we are all muslims. We all believe in one Allah, we all believe that Muhammad was our prophet, we all believe in not harming others, we all believe in respecting our parents, we all believe in honest and truthfulness and one of the most important which we keep forgetting - we all believe in charity and helping those who are in need.

-----

First of all, there’s no such thing as Shia, Sunni, and Sufi, but only Shia and Sunni. Sufism is either a part of Sunni Islam or Shia Islam as the Sufi orders are either Sunni or Twelver Shi’i. Don’t treat Sufism independently of Sunni Islam. It’s like saying that ‘Irfan is independent of the (Twelver) Shia tradition. That’s not true at all. Sufism and ‘Irfan are more like the inner dimensions of those traditions, and they intermingle a lot, especially in later Islamic history. People often forget this. Secondly, what we are discussing here are doctrinal issues that deal with the question of orthodoxy and heterodoxy, which is an extremely important question. So we cannot simply say we are all Muslims and leave it at that. Although that is true, there’s still more to be said which might lead us into distinguishing, to the best of our ability, between not only orthodoxy and heterodoxy but also downright unbelief and apostasy. Let me give you an example. There are fundamental beliefs which we all hold that make us Muslims, like for example La Iaha Ila Allah, Muhammadun rasul Allah. But what does this mean and what are its implications? One of the implications, according to both Sunnis and Twelver Shi’i’s, of the second shahada is that Muhammad – alayhi salatu wasalam, is the last prophet of God, and that what he brought from God as regards the Sharia’ cannot be changed or abrogated by anyone. The reason for this is because only a messenger can change the Law of God by bringing a new one from Him, but since the Prophet (saw) is the last rasul of God, no one can change the Sharia’ he brought because there will not be any new messenger after him. This is one the fundamental tenets of Islam that all Muslims, Sunni and Shia, accept. This is a belief that anyone who takes a look at the Qur’an and the prophetic traditions will inevitably uphold. Now about Ismalis, do they believe in it as well? In short, no they don’t, even though they might say they do. This is clear from the various practices and rituals i.e. the dua, and many others, that Ismailis perform which have no basis in either the Qur’an or the Sunna of the Prophet (saw). These rituals were introduced either by their imam or by some high ranking member of their community and the imam approved it. Moreover, and this is the main issue, the fundamental basis for all this is their belief that their imam has the authority to change the laws of the Sharia’. By doing that, their imam takes on the function of the Prophet and in a sense brings a new Law or can bring a new one. Why else are they so different from the rest of Muslims in terms of practices? More importantly, what consequence has this now for the belief that Muhammad (saw) is the last rasul of God? Now is this anything but against the belief of all Muslims, be they Sunni or Shia?

[ya-ali-madad]

I don't know if this has been asked before but do ismali's hold majalis in commemoration of the tragedy of Karbala and other events. do they do matam and mourn the tragedies of the Ahulbayt a.s? and what their ruling on hijab? it might be an misconception but i havent seen any ismali girls wearing the hijab or properly covering themselves?

[yahossein]

When many Muslims refused to obey the command of Allah in gadir -e-khum. The command that made Islam perfect. They are not kafirs, then how come ismailis are kafirs?

This is crazy. Let Allah be the judge of the faith. Lets not play Allah.

We should break the walls and build bridges. Lets not look at the small differences we have. Lets concentrate on big similarities.

Allah wanted diverse communities, that's why he has divided us into communities.

This is what Quran says -

Lets stop blaming one another. Shia, Sunni, Sufi, we are all muslims. We all believe in one Allah, we all believe that Muhammad was our prophet, we all believe in not harming others, we all believe in respecting our parents, we all believe in honest and truthfulness and one of the most important which we keep forgetting - we all believe in charity and helping those who are in need.

Demons and Jinn also believe in Allah. And Iblis (shaytaan) also knows Allah is his creator. Saying you believe in Allah, and believe in the Prophet (pbuh) and lots of other 'nice' things does not suffice to save onself from Hell

The Aga Khan of the Ismailis presents Farmans and they are accepted as doctrine

Farman of Aga Khan III wherein he says;

"If I say it is night, (you are to believe) it is night. If I say it is day (you are to believe) it is day"

(o really)

Allah (swt) says:

"Give the warning to those in whose (hearts) is the fear that they will be brought (to Judgement) before their Lord, for whom there is no protecting friend nor intercessor beside Him (Allah), that they may ward off (evil)" "... and who can forgive sins except Allah?" Holy Quran 6/51 and 3/135

The Ismaili say

Mowla'na Ima'm Hasan Ala'Zikrihis Salaam (23rd Ismaili Imam) declared the Youm-el-Qiya'ma, the Day of Resurrection, which was held on the nineteenth of Ramaza'n, 559 a.h. (10th of August, 1164). Thousands upon thousands of Ismai'ilis came from all corners of the world to attend this important day of resurrection of the holy faith. The Holy Ima'm declared...

“Today I have explained to you the Law [shari'at] and its meaning. I make you free from the rigidity of the Law and resurrect you from the bondage of the letter to the freedom of the spirit of the Law. Obey me and follow my farma'n.... Break your fast and rejoice. This is the day of utmost happiness and gratitude.”

Allah (swt) says

"O you who believe! Fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious).

(Fasting) for a fixed number of days, but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the same number (should be made up) from other days. And as for those who can fast with difficulty, (i.e. an old man, etc.), they have (a choice either to fast or) to feed a poor person (for every day). But whoever does good of his own accord, it is better for him. And that you fast, it is better for you if only you know." (2:183-84)

"The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Quran, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadan), he must fast that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number (of days which one did not fast must be made up) from other days.

Allah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allah for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him" (2: 185).

20 February 1910, at Rajkot, India, Aga Khan III

"Do nt at all reflect about the future and do not at all think about whether you shall receive the Heaven or the Hell in the afterlife. Because, all things — the Heaven and the Hell — [to give] is in my hand.

Well that quote was so ridiculous. There are there are just too many passages from the Quran regarding the ultimate Judge being Allah (swt) on yaumul qiyaam that there is not enough space to post so to make the quote above look laughable. Malik i yaum i deen is ONLY and will ONLY ever be Allah (swt). Anyone claiming to be otherwise will be destined for Hellfire.

1)To declare yaum ul qiyam iz murtad.

2)To declare fasting is not obligatory is murtad

3)To declare Hajj is not obligatory is murtad

4)To declare Heaven and Hell as "metaphorical" rather than real places is murtad

5)Allah IS AL HAKIM and the judger of Yaum ul Qiyam and the ONLY one that can accept repentance and tauba. Not any Imam. Even the 12 imams. To suggest that anyone else has this power is murtad. May Allah curse those who deny him.

6)The quran explicits states that those who believe in Allah and the last day "PROSTRATE THEMSELVES IN PRAYER"

7)Masjid were and have always been places of worship.

8)Sunnis and Shias pray the same and nothing like you so deal with it. To not keep up prayers as mentioned in the quran "morning prayer, noon, and night prayer" is murtad

9)The IMAMS ALL PRAYED and did Namaz as did Rasulallah. All Hadith of Sunni and Shia states this. The entire Muslim Ummah carrys out salaat and namaz. The enture Muslim Ummah Prostrates themselves in pray during Hajj in front of Allah as they have done for thousands of years. I cannot understand how you can deny this and think it is made up BS that we do all these things and that actually salaat is a fantasy and rasullalah and the imams instead sat in a jamaatkhane. Please

.

SALAAT was taught by Rasullulah (you know the guy who who founded our religion) and is documented and recorder in Hadith and Sunnah and passed down and practiced by hundreds of Millions of Sunni brothers and Shia brothers.

Allah Commands:

"From whencesoever thou startest forth (for prayer) turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: That is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. So from whencesoever thou startest forth, turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; among wheresoever ye are turn your face thither: That there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye may be guided". Holy Quran 2/ 149-150

The Ismaili say:

"Facing Qibla in prayer is not a fundamental principle of Islam, it is a tradition." 'Ismaili Tariqah' page 184

Unfortunately the Ismaili decided to ditch the idea.

Allahs law in the Quran is the only authentic thing we have. Thats why its murtad when you chop and change, and reject obligatory laws like sawm and hajj and say they are not obligatory and spin an interpretation on salaat. As well as declare heaven and hell are metaphoric. THESE ARE THE PILLARS OF ISLAM. They are what is required to be called a Muslim to accept Allah.

There are lots of Muslims who dont fast, dont pray, dont go hajj, dont wear hijab. However if you ask them if it is commanded by Allah they will say yes. But the reason for them not doing it is shaitans influnce

The line between that an murtad is huge as to be murtad you dont act upon say sawm and hajj or anything else commanded in the Quran and not only are you not doing it, you say that you are correct in not doing it. Which means you reject that Allah requires it despite it being commanded in the Quran.

Brother anybody who ever preaches in violation of what is commanded in the Quran is a DAJJAL. There are many Dajjals who will come b4 the great Dajjal. There is no fitna greater than that of the Dajjal. Please be aware of this

[JimJam]

More about the beliefs Nizari Ismailis from their own sites.I wouldn't call them "un-islamic" since well, who knows that the batin meanings of the Quran are but why do Sijistani(who never met an Ismaili imam) and Nasir Khusrow appear to be the main people who laid the foundations of Ismaili Shariat and philosophy, rather than the Ismaili imams themsleves?

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101017#anchor24_7

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106542

Why is it that the most "impressive" theories and doctrines of the Ismailis do not seem to be derived from the teachings of the Imams themselves but rather appear to the the works of sufi-type philosophers trying to blend ancient greek spiritual doctrines with Islamic view of the universe? Is the spiritual thought of the polytheist ancient greeks derived from God?? Can it be really considered valid? Why give it so much importance. Why so much focus on the un-explained (batin) parts of the Quran? Does it really have that much of an impact on a common man's life, that you build an entire school of thought around it?

Compare this with us Twelvers, our greatest religious works are the words of our Imams themselves, the knowledge of the Imams themselves, the Nahjul Balagha, the Al-Kafi, the Supplications of Imam Sajjad(as), the Bihar al-Anwar. We still cling steadfastly to the teaching of OUR Imams, the Imams of the formative times of the muslim world. Compared to Twelvers the Ismailis seem to have turned their backs on the works and teachings of the Imams they share in common with twelvers, instead swandiving into mysticism and batinism, which is not something tangiable. This may just be my own opinion,but i dont think the batin meaning of the Quran whatever it's significance can serve as a guide to live your life or base your laws upon. It may broaden your mind, but its not as practical in day to day matters as the zahir meaning, which the common man is concerned more with. If an imam tells you something of the batin of his own record, then well and good, otherwise its all just speculation. It should be left alone. Instead the focus should be on character building.

How many Ismailis actually read the works of Sijistani and Nasir Khusrow, and if they do, what do they get out of it? Has the sect which tried to study the hidden aspects of Islam sect now just devolved into, "Agha Khan says go to Canada, and we oblige"?

Im not saying become Twelver, what im saying is try to BE something. Hasan Ibn Sabbah was something, look at you now.

[yahossein]

More about the beliefs Nizari Ismailis from their own sites.I wouldn't call them "un-islamic" since well, who knows that the batin meanings of the Quran are but why do Sijistani(who never met an Ismaili imam) and Nasir Khusrow appear to be the main people who laid the foundations of Ismaili Shariat and philosophy, rather than the Ismaili imams themsleves?

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101017#anchor24_7

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106542

Why is it that the most "impressive" theories and doctrines of the Ismailis do not seem to be derived from the teachings of the Imams themselves but rather appear to the the works of sufi-type philosophers trying to blend ancient greek spiritual doctrines with Islamic view of the universe? Is the spiritual thought of the polytheist ancient greeks derived from God?? Can it be really considered valid? Why give it so much importance. Why so much focus on the un-explained (batin) parts of the Quran? Does it really have that much of an impact on a common man's life, that you build an entire school of thought around it?

Compare this with us Twelvers, our greatest religious works are the words of our Imams themselves, the knowledge of the Imams themselves, the Nahjul Balagha, the Al-Kafi, the Supplications of Imam Sajjad(as), the Bihar al-Anwar. We still cling steadfastly to the teaching of OUR Imams, the Imams of the formative times of the muslim world. Compared to Twelvers the Ismailis seem to have turned their backs on the works and teachings of the Imams they share in common with twelvers, instead swandiving into mysticism and batinism, which is not something tangiable. This may just be my own opinion,but i dont think the batin meaning of the Quran whatever it's significance can serve as a guide to live your life or base your laws upon. It may broaden your mind, but its not as practical in day to day matters as the zahir meaning, which the common man is concerned more with. If an imam tells you something of the batin of his own record, then well and good, otherwise its all just speculation. It should be left alone. Instead the focus should be on character building.

How many Ismailis actually read the works of Sijistani and Nasir Khusrow, and if they do, what do they get out of it? Has the sect which tried to study the hidden aspects of Islam sect now just devolved into, "Agha Khan says go to Canada, and we oblige"?

Im not saying become Twelver, what im saying is try to BE something. Hasan Ibn Sabbah was something, look at you now.

Very true. I would question Hassan e sabbah anyway to be honest. He druged people with narcotics to get them to fight, built a tower like a warlord, and attack and murdered people like no bodies business.

But anyway. Point is the hashashin and Hasssan e sabbah got mixed with a very secretive cult knowns as the Ikhwan al Safa (brthern of purity). Now these guys were into things like manucripts and more important for people to be aware of, the usage of rites, rituals, and mystic knowledge in order to evoke Jinn. There are many ancient arabic manuscripts on summoning Jinn that were used by these secret societies. This is why it was know as 'esoteric' knowledge. It was the manipulation of the Quran and specifically the names of Allah, in order to serve, what it very much seems like heretical means.

So all this batin batin etc is lodged in Ismailism and sufism alike. However the followers are like sheep and cattle. Havent a clue whats going on. The people who know how to practice the true tennets of the faith are higher up the order and unfortunately as most cases with 'esotericism; it develops simply into occultism and dealing with Jinns. So essentially misguiding people and leading to Hellfire rather than deepening the faith.

To be honest i cannot understand why an Ismaili shia would look at the rest of the sunni and shia population and what they practice and not find something deeply wrong with their own faith which is so far from Islam persoanlly i would say it falls outside of Islam.

Shia and Sunnis as i said previous post may differ on matters but the furoo od deen (the tennents and practices as derived for the Quran) are not debated. No one in their right mind ever questions the compulsion or farz of sawm (fasting), salaat, hajj etc.

I would honestly class Ismailism with Ahmadiyyas (Qadians), and Bahais to be honest. Bears very little resemblence to Sunna and Shia and classed as Kufar sect by most.

[JimJam]

Very true. I would question Hassan e sabbah anyway to be honest. He druged people with narcotics to get them to fight, built a tower like a warlord, and attack and murdered people like no bodies business.

But anyway. Point is the hashashin and Hasssan e sabbah got mixed with a very secretive cult knowns as the Ikhwan al Safa (brthern of purity). Now these guys were into things like manucripts and more important for people to be aware of, the usage of rites, rituals, and mystic knowledge in order to evoke Jinn. There are many ancient arabic manuscripts on summoning Jinn that were used by these secret societies. This is why it was know as 'esoteric' knowledge. It was the manipulation of the Quran and specifically the names of Allah, in order to serve, what it very much seems like heretical means.

So all this batin batin etc is lodged in Ismailism and sufism alike. However the followers are like sheep and cattle. Havent a clue whats going on. The people who know how to practice the true tennets of the faith are higher up the order and unfortunately as most cases with 'esotericism; it develops simply into occultism and dealing with Jinns. So essentially misguiding people and leading to Hellfire rather than deepening the faith.

To be honest i cannot understand why an Ismaili shia would look at the rest of the sunni and shia population and what they practice and not find something deeply wrong with their own faith which is so far from Islam persoanlly i would say it falls outside of Islam.

Shia and Sunnis as i said previous post may differ on matters but the furoo od deen (the tennents and practices as derived for the Quran) are not debated. No one in their right mind ever questions the compulsion or farz of sawm (fasting), salaat, hajj etc.

I would honestly class Ismailism with Ahmadiyyas (Qadians), and Bahais to be honest. Bears very little resemblence to Sunna and Shia and classed as Kufar sect by most.

I wouldn't believe all the Propangana that was put put about Hasan Ibn Sabbah. I dont think he really did go around drugging people. Its just that he was an opponent of BOTH the crusader s and the Sunnis. So they made all sorts of stories about him. The fword Aassasin isnt taken from Hashishin, instead it's taken from Assas or foundation or asset. And the esoteric knowledge the Ismailis went at, that was the old greek literaure of neo-platonism, in which the greeks tried to construct a rational framework of rationalize divinity since to them, Philosophy was the main science. I would commend the ancient ismails to be so broad minded and commited to rational though, no wonder they were among the foremost sects of the mideaval times with many thinkers & scientists belonging to them. Sufism was brought forward by the Abbasis as a counnter to the rationalist movements like the Mutazalites and Ismailis. The Agha Khanis were not only Ismalis, there were also the Qamarti Ismailis, who were SO fanatically agaisnt religious superstition that they raided Makkah and stole the Hijar-e-Aswad (stupid buggers). Those Qamartis even had for a time a state in Multan, which was later destroyed by Ghaznavi, and destroying it was part of his reason to invade India.

But as they are now today, they are just hopeless the Ismailis, its always their own Imams that have been their undoing historically, both in the Fatmid and Almatian ages

[JimJam]

Imam Ali(as) said:

"Acquire wisdom and truth from whomever you can because even an apostate can have them but unless they are passed over to a faithful Muslim and become part of wisdom and truth that he possesses, they have a confused existence in the minds of apostates."

"Knowledge and wisdom are really the privilege of a faithful Muslim. If you have lost them, get them back even though you may have to get them from the apostates."

So i wouldn't really see any reason to condemn their trying to study and gain something from the primary foreign philosophies of that were a hit that time. Its not their esoterism that was the problem,their scholariness & was their main plus. The problem was that their Imams turned their backs on the teaching of the imams they share with us twelvers, the Shariat-e-Muahmmadi that the Imams gave their lives for, they consider so insignificant that they abandoned them. They damned themselves.

You have a promising people, done in by their leaders foolishness.

The Bohris have given up and trried to go mainstrream. Lets see how the Agha Khans shape up in the future.

[Ishraq]

Does anyone know if the Amman Message actually covers Ismailis? Are they Muslims by its definition? I know that the Aga Khan sent a letter approving of the Amman Message, but he lumped the Ismaili school with the Jafari school. To my knowledge, Jafaris do not believe Ismailis are Muslim, let alone that the Ismaili school is somehow part of the Jafari school.

I don’t think the Amman Message includes Ismailism for the following simple reason.

P1. The Amman Message only includes Sunni (maliki,hanafi,hanbali,shafi’) and Shia (ja’fari) madhahib.

P2. Ismailism (contrary to the Aga Khan) does not belong either to the (Shia) Ja’fari madhhab or the 4 Sunni madhahib.

C. Therefore, the Amman Message does not include Ismailism.

[89jghur32]

I don’t think the Amman Message includes Ismailism for the following simple reason.

P1. The Amman Message only includes Sunni (maliki,hanafi,hanbali,shafi’) and Shia (ja’fari) madhahib.

P2. Ismailism (contrary to the Aga Khan) does not belong either to the (Shia) Ja’fari madhhab or the 4 Sunni madhahib.

C. Therefore, the Amman Message does not include Ismailism.

It also includes the Salafi, Ibadhi and Shia Zaidiyyah schools.

It's weird because the Aga Khan is a signatory and endorser of the Amman Message.

[real0019]

^ Why else would they include Aga Khan IV's endorsement on their website? In his letter, Aga Khan himself claims historic adherence to the Ja'fari Madhhab and "other Madhahib of close affinity."

[AlQadr]

I can never see a post like this one without asking myself one question: "And I? Am I a Muslim?" I do salat, pay zakat, say shahadah,fast in Ramadan, and will (inshallah) make Hajj in the next year. But am I a Muslim? Do I REALLY submit to Allah's will? The fact that I find the time to find fault with my, perhaps distant, neighbor's Islam speaks volumes about the quality my own.

[mahdi86]

Salam,

when a person says "Ashadu Allah ilah ha ilah lah wa ashadu anla Mohammad (SAWS) rasulullah" it makes him or her Muslim. If he or she adds "ashadu anla hojjatollah Aliem wali ullah" then it makes him or her shia. It is not in our hands to judge if someone is Muslim or not. We just have to accept that someoen who says that he or she is Muslim, has to be treated like a Muslim, the rest is not for us to judge.

Wsalam, Mahdi

[AlQadr]

Salam,

when a person says "Ashadu Allah ilah ha ilah lah wa ashadu anla Mohammad (SAWS) rasulullah" it makes him or her Muslim. If he or she adds "ashadu anla hojjatollah Aliem wali ullah" then it makes him or her shia. It is not in our hands to judge if someone is Muslim or not. We just have to accept that someoen who says that he or she is Muslim, has to be treated like a Muslim, the rest is not for us to judge.

Wsalam, Mahdi

Excellent reply! One of the things that hurts Islam's appeal to the rest of the world is the constant bickering---and killing---all in the name of who is or is not really Muslim. One would think we did not believe there was Allah to judge that question.

[Ishraq]

It also includes the Salafi, Ibadhi and Shia Zaidiyyah schools.

I didn't include the Ibadhi and (original) Salafi madhahib because I figured that they are more or less Sunni. I didn't know the Amman Message, or Twelver Shi'ism for that matter, included the Zaidiyyah madhhab. What is the general view of the 'ulama?

[Ishraq]

Why else would they include Aga Khan IV's endorsement on their website?

Good question. I don't know. I tried contacting them about this but was not able to.

In his letter, Aga Khan himself claims historic adherence to the Ja'fari Madhhab and "other Madhahib of close affinity."

That absolutely means nothing besides, perhaps, that at a certain point in history i.e. the Fatimid dynasty, Ismaili fiqh was close to or even maybe the same as Ithnashari jurisprudence. But what about now? What does it mean to belong to a particular madhhab anyway? Does adherence to a school of law depend on more or less loose historical affinities to that particular madhhab? If so, then I guess it's safe to say that Bahaism belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab because its origins are in Twelver Shi'ism or that the Ahmadiyya are Sunni because they grew out of that context. Many other examples can be cited, but of course that's something completely unacceptable to Sunni and Shia 'ulama !. One would think that The Aga Khan, given that he is 'the Imam', would be much clearer not only about what he means when he claims "historical adherence to the Ja'fari madhhab" but also why, if it's true, it follows from that that Ismailism therefore belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab. I don't seem to understand; maybe someone here can explain it to me?

[real0019]

That absolutely means nothing besides, perhaps, that at a certain point in history i.e. the Fatimid dynasty, Ismaili fiqh was close to or even maybe the same as Ithnashari jurisprudence. But what about now? What does it mean to belong to a particular madhhab anyway? Does adherence to a school of law depend on more or less loose historical affinities to that particular madhhab? If so, then I guess it's safe to say that Bahaism belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab because its origins are in Twelver Shi'ism or that the Ahmadiyya are Sunni because they grew out of that context. Many other examples can be cited, but of course that's something completely unacceptable to Sunni and Shia 'ulama !. One would think that The Aga Khan, given that he is 'the Imam', would be much clearer not only about what he means when he claims "historical adherence to the Ja'fari madhhab" but also why, if it's true, it follows from that that Ismailism therefore belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab. I don't seem to understand; maybe someone here can explain it to me?

It is a bit odd, though Isma'ili fiqh itself was derived from Zaydi and Imami sources. I suppose 'Ja'fari' is just an umbrella term for Imami and Isma'ili fiqh since much of it is based upon the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as).

[Ishraq]

I suppose 'Ja'fari' is just an umbrella term for Imami and Isma'ili fiqh since much of it is based upon the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as).

Unlike the Sunnis and Shias, modern day Ismailis don't have a jurisprudential framework under which they observe the Sharia'. There fiqh is thus not based on the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq; they don't even have fiqh properly speaking. Any general rules or formal laws they might observe are the rules and laws that the Aga Khan has prescribed for them. In other words, anything Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (or the Imams before him) said regarding ablutions, or salaat and etc, does not matter as the Aga Khan says otherwise. I still don't see how they are Ja'fari.

[macintoshtoffy]

if they say "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Mohammed Rasulu Allah" then they are muslims.

(wasalam)

Beautifully put and as long as they don't try to ram it down anyone else's throat or make claims that they have the only true interpretation of Islam - its all good.

[JimJam]

Unlike the Sunnis and Shias, modern day Ismailis don't have a jurisprudential framework under which they observe the Sharia'. There fiqh is thus not based on the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq; they don't even have fiqh properly speaking. Any general rules or formal laws they might observe are the rules and laws that the Aga Khan has prescribed for them. In other words, anything Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (or the Imams before him) said regarding ablutions, or salaat and etc, does not matter as the Aga Khan says otherwise. I still don't see how they are Ja'fari.

Well under Fatmid times they DID follow the Jafari fiqh, Jafari fiqh, to the best of my knowledge is based on ijtihad, more so than any other concept of Shariat. Thats what our Usooli concept of Marjiyat is based upon. To see what the fiqh of the Ismailis of the fatmiad times was like you have to see, the Mustaali Ismaili i.e the Bohras. They are like living fossils of the Fatmid age. They actually do follow the Shariat and pray, and follow hijab, commemorate muharram etcThe Agha Khan being the Imam is the Nizari one and only Marjah, their only interpreter of faith. In their view. They think dont need scholars or theology when they have a living Imam to lead them. In their he is like Imam Ali (as). A man who has the best knowledge of Islam and can thus answer every spiritual question. Although in my opinion a true imam would encourage his followers to learn the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) and the preceding Imams.

Twelver Imams always stuck to the Quran and citied the verses of the Quran very often in my observation of our literature. The Agha Khan doesn't ever seem to do that.

[yahossein]

Yea. I think im beginning to realise the obvious

Their are increasing numbers of young muslims in tis generation that do not keep up their salaat, do not go mosque, dont pay zakaat, dont wear hijab, engage in sinful activities etc. These are the ABC of Islam, the very basics and increasing numbers are not doing it. I dont think we should bicker when in fact their is waning Iman in the muslim population. The Ummah is extremely divided along both racial and sectarian grounds. If we were united we could focus on why the everyday youth of the Ummah is becoming like this, and look for ways to change this worrying slide. There is no point in hysterically pointing fingers and posting fatwas like salafis on who or who isnt a muslim, kufr, commited shirk or whatever because this is not the time for this if there ever is one in the first place.

[macintoshtoffy]

Yea. I think im beginning to realise the obvious

Their are increasing numbers of young muslims in tis generation that do not keep up their salaat, do not go mosque, dont pay zakaat, dont wear hijab, engage in sinful activities etc. These are the ABC of Islam, the very basics and increasing numbers are not doing it. I dont think we should bicker when in fact their is waning Iman in the muslim population. The Ummah is extremely divided along both racial and sectarian grounds. If we were united we could focus on why the everyday youth of the Ummah is becoming like this, and look for ways to change this worrying slide. There is no point in hysterically pointing fingers and posting fatwas like salafis on who or who isnt a muslim, kufr, commited shirk or whatever because this is not the time for this if there ever is one in the first place.

(wasalam)

I don't blame youth from becoming more distant from Islam considering the people who have appointed themselves as spokes people for Islam - a casual crawl through the MEMRI archive (and yes, the translations are accurate - so please don't bring in conspiracy theories in an attempt to undercut the point of what I'm saying) and there are self appointed 'scholars' claiming they speak for Islam. The scary part are the number of Muslims who then take what these scholars have to say without question and the claim that some how scholars are magically immune to dogmatism -humans are fallible and only God is perfection.

God gave us the Qur'an, prophets and one of the most powerful computers in existence, our brain, time for us to start using the brain instead of blindly following the opinions of self appointed gurus.

[Shia Shahid]

(salam)

Well back to the original topic: Ismailis. I don't meant this as any sort of fitna or sectarianism, but Ismailis in general have several beliefs that put them out of Islam.

1. Reincarnation

2. Their "Imam" can make anything halal or haraam that he wants, drinking, gambling, betting on horse races, they will still follow him and give him their money

3. They don't consider the Qur'an valid for all times

4. Various Ismaili groups don't seem to cohesively agree on Salat, Hajj, fasting, etc. but most alter them or do not practice them.

5. Many of the things they say about their "Imams" or Aga Khans border on shirk. And I mean real shirk, not the Wahhabi definition of shirk. He is like a cult Guru for them.

6. Numerology and other un-Islamic superstitions, everything (including prophets and Imams) comes in cycles of seven. So there is the potential for more prophets in their "future"! (Audhobillah...)

Here's something interesting I came across: once I was introduced to a guy who was supposedly Shia Muslim, but he said "however, I am Agha Khani". So I was like "I am Ithna Ashari" and then he got this half-confused, half-disgusted look on his face, as if he didn't know what REAL Shia are, and at the same time he was suspicious.

Now today the Ismailis are harmless, I'm not accusing them of betraying the Ummah or helping zionists or what have you. They mostly keep to themselves and have their own communities and networks. BUT, I doubt if we can call them Muslims even by a very loose definition. And they have no cohesive fiqh or qur'an sciences, they follow some very strange interpretations of Qur'an much like Bahais, Ahmadiyyas, and some extreme Sufi sects.

[macintoshtoffy]

(salam)

Well back to the original topic: Ismailis. I don't meant this as any sort of fitna or sectarianism, but Ismailis in general have several beliefs that put them out of Islam.

1. Reincarnation

2. Their "Imam" can make anything halal or haraam that he wants, drinking, gambling, betting on horse races, they will still follow him and give him their money

3. They don't consider the Qur'an valid for all times

4. Various Ismaili groups don't seem to cohesively agree on Salat, Hajj, fasting, etc. but most alter them or do not practice them.

5. Many of the things they say about their "Imams" or Aga Khans border on shirk. And I mean real shirk, not the Wahhabi definition of shirk. He is like a cult Guru for them.

6. Numerology and other un-Islamic superstitions, everything (including prophets and Imams) comes in cycles of seven. So there is the potential for more prophets in their "future"! (Audhobillah...)

Here's something interesting I came across: once I was introduced to a guy who was supposedly Shia Muslim, but he said "however, I am Agha Khani". So I was like "I am Ithna Ashari" and then he got this half-confused, half-disgusted look on his face, as if he didn't know what REAL Shia are, and at the same time he was suspicious.

Now today the Ismailis are harmless, I'm not accusing them of betraying the Ummah or helping zionists or what have you. They mostly keep to themselves and have their own communities and networks. BUT, I doubt if we can call them Muslims even by a very loose definition. And they have no cohesive fiqh or qur'an sciences, they follow some very strange interpretations of Qur'an much like Bahais, Ahmadiyyas, and some extreme Sufi sects.

I understand some of your concerns but one also remember that the dogma that exists in both Sunni and Shia was formulated after Muhammad's death; the nature of the Qur'an, the nature of reality and so on. It would be incredibly unfair, therefore to 'kick' the Ismalis out on the contention that their practices don't line up with ones own. One should remember before passing judgement that it is plurality within the Ummah which gives it strength and as so long as Muslims respect each others views (within reason of course - views that result in violence aren't acceptable). The way I interpret the Qur'an would be totally different to the way you do but that doesn't make my interpretation any less valid just as your interpretation isn't any less valid from my point of view.

[Shia Shahid]

I understand some of your concerns but one also remember that the dogma that exists in both Sunni and Shia was formulated after Muhammad's death; the nature of the Qur'an, the nature of reality and so on. It would be incredibly unfair, therefore to 'kick' the Ismalis out on the contention that their practices don't line up with ones own. One should remember before passing judgement that it is plurality within the Ummah which gives it strength and as so long as Muslims respect each others views (within reason of course - views that result in violence aren't acceptable). The way I interpret the Qur'an would be totally different to the way you do but that doesn't make my interpretation any less valid just as your interpretation isn't any less valid from my point of view.

Perhaps you have a good point, but when Ismailis twist the interpretation of the Qur'an verses to refer to the Fatimids or their own Agha Khans, that just starts to sound ridiculous. What's more, despite there being different "interpretations" of the Qur'an, really the only valid ones were those of the Prophet (saw) and the Ahlul bayt, who learned it from him. If you invent your own interpretation without proof, you are pretty much jumping into Hell-fire.

Now I'm OBVIOUSLY not calling for persecution or anything of the sort. What practical difference does it make if Ismailis are "kicked out"? They're free to live their secret lives. They are not exactly seeking unity with the rest of Islam the way Shias and some Sunnis are seeking mutual unity. They are a much more closed-off community. They don't give much importance to fasting, Hajj, etc. they act like heaven and hell are not real but metaphors for this world, they belive in reincarnation... WHAT PART OF THIS CAN BE CALLED ISLAMIC? Just because they claim to believe in 6 or 7 of the 12 imams, they are Shia Muslims? Well sorry, their BELIEFS are totally different from what the Imams themselves taught! Having some Imams does not means you share their beliefs or creed, look how Christians made Jesus into a god, did he believe in any of what they believe? Or was his name simply co-opted and abused???

Furthermore, Ismailis make the Agha Khan a central tenet of their faith, whatever happened to Allah and His messenger? Everything is centered around the current billionaire Agha Khan and his every desire. It's a big clue as to where Ahmadiyyas and Bahais got the inspiration for their own guru-worship. The Qur'an is not the measure (al-furqaan) for these people; it's simply a tool to be twisted and used to justify their own invented customs.

BTW, I also admit that some Shia traditions and a LOT of Sunni traditions are bid'ahs and not authentic, however we rarely see the Qur'an being distorted to justify any of them. For example no Shia ever claims that the term "al-Haqqah" in the Qur'an refers to matam and qama zani in Ashura! No Shia ever says "Imam Husayn is The Truth" like the Christians do with Isa (as). But Ismailis take a lot of verses out of context to imply cycles of 7, further prophets still to come, and their Aga Khans. They even interpret Sura al-Nasr to refer to Agha Khans as "the divine aid" (Nasr-Allah)

So as it stands, it's very PROBLEMATIC to consider them Muslims, I don't deny that SOME Ismailis may be close to Islam, they don't all think the same way after all, but the general Ismaili creed is in many ways diametrically opposed to Islam. Once again, I'm no fan of takfir, but consider that with their invention of their own ways and adoption of many non-Muslim beliefs as their own official doctrine, they have pretty much takfir-ed themselves.

[JimJam]

(salam)

Well back to the original topic: Ismailis. I don't meant this as any sort of fitna or sectarianism, but Ismailis in general have several beliefs that put them out of Islam.

1. Reincarnation

2. Their "Imam" can make anything halal or haraam that he wants, drinking, gambling, betting on horse races, they will still follow him and give him their money

3. They don't consider the Qur'an valid for all times

4. Various Ismaili groups don't seem to cohesively agree on Salat, Hajj, fasting, etc. but most alter them or do not practice them.

5. Many of the things they say about their "Imams" or Aga Khans border on shirk. And I mean real shirk, not the Wahhabi definition of shirk. He is like a cult Guru for them.

6. Numerology and other un-Islamic superstitions, everything (including prophets and Imams) comes in cycles of seven. So there is the potential for more prophets in their "future"! (Audhobillah...)

Here's something interesting I came across: once I was introduced to a guy who was supposedly Shia Muslim, but he said "however, I am Agha Khani". So I was like "I am Ithna Ashari" and then he got this half-confused, half-disgusted look on his face, as if he didn't know what REAL Shia are, and at the same time he was suspicious.

Now today the Ismailis are harmless, I'm not accusing them of betraying the Ummah or helping zionists or what have you. They mostly keep to themselves and have their own communities and networks. BUT, I doubt if we can call them Muslims even by a very loose definition. And they have no cohesive fiqh or qur'an sciences, they follow some very strange interpretations of Qur'an much like Bahais, Ahmadiyyas, and some extreme Sufi sects.

So I came across this prayer of theirs

An Ismaili Prayer and Ginan to the current Imam

Our Lord Nur Mawlana Shah,

Karim al-Husayni Hazar Imam!

We humble students pray to thee:

Give us your divine guidance to discharge our duties!

Give us the courage and strenght to obey the holy firmans!(1)

Our saviour,

have mercy upon us

and bless us with the holy Nurani Didar(2) in this world

and the next.

There is no salvation without our imam.

O ‘Ali! O ‘Ali! (3)

Better than written guidance, (4)

we have the living imam. (5)

O ‘Ali! O ‘Ali!

All-wise, omniscient, sinless.

The imam will give the kingdom to his followers

and they will rule until eternity.

Pay dashond

and obey his incarnation.

After these good deeds the soul attains salvation.

Pay your tithes to our teacher, the imam;

it will help you to secure salvation, bliss and happiness.

Without it you may be reborn 10,000 times.

O believers!

Pay your dues to our Lord accurately.

You will be doubly rewarded for all the things you offer.

O believers!

Come to the jamatkhana

and drink the water of purity.

While serving him devoutly

we recognize him as imam.

Only those who give all the dashond which they owe,

only those who sacrifice all they possess with love,

only they are the true believers.

He is true and just.

He is pure and sinless.

He is our gracious Lord,

sustainer of creation.

He is the judge of judgement,

the maker of us all.

Serve the imam,

we are his servants.

There is no salvation without the imam.

He is all in all.

O ‘Ali!

O Karim al-Husayni! Forgive our sines. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Fulfil our wishes. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Remove our troubles. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Overcome the enemies of our faith. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Grant us a temporal and spiritual glimpse. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Grant us health for our sick. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Grant is goodness to know you and belive in you. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Keep us perfect in partaking in sukrit and in paying dashond. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Make the community prosperous by giving them long life, wealth and children. Ameen.

O Karim al-Husayni! Please bless those that give money generously. Ameen.

(1) These are the religious teachings of the imam which are binding upon all Ismailis. Only the firmans of the living imam or imam of the time are authoritative. This allows the imam of the time to adapt the faith to new times and situations without being hampered by tradition.

(2) This is the Ismaili hajj. Everyone should seek to see the imam both in person and spiritually.

(3) Every imam is Allah’s Noor which first manifested itself as Ali the first imam of this cycle. So every imam is Ali.

(4) This refers to the Koran.

This was taken from this site here

I guess they themselves conform what you said about them.

May Allah make them, and us too, true followers of the true Imams.

Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) said, "Why do you strut proudly on this earth? You can neither dent the ground or pierce the sky."

Goddamnit, you tell me, does this guy LOOK like a true successor to Imam Hussain (as) and Imam Sajjad (as)?? Not to me he doesn't.

He has neither their modesty, nor their humility. Imam Ali (as) during his reign as Khalifa used to wear a tattered shirt covered in patches, and used to speak out against the materialistic lifestyle of his citizens,the Imams lived lived among the people, so much so that in the end the Abbasids had to put them under house arrest to try and separate them from the public.

But their Fatmids "imams" during their reign lived in luxury & isolation, by the Ismailis own narration of history, giving only glimpses of themselves to only their most fanatical & dedicated followers

[Shia Shahid]

Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) said, "Why do you strut proudly on this earth? You can neither dent the ground or pierce the sky."

Goddamnit, you tell me, does this guy LOOK like a true successor to Imam Hussain (as) and Imam Sajjad (as)?? Not to me he doesn't.

He has neither their modesty, nor their humility. Imam Ali (as) during his reign as Khalifa used to wear a tattered shirt covered in patches, and used to speak out against the materialistic lifestyle of his citizens,the Imams lived lived among the people, so much so that in the end the Abbasids had to put them under house arrest to try and separate them from the public.

But their Fatmids "imams" during their reign lived in luxury & isolation, by the Ismailis own narration of history, giving only glimpses of themselves to only their most fanatical & dedicated followers

You make a GREAT point brother. They are a shirk cult, and their leader is a wealth-flaunting guru like Benny Hinn or L. Ron Hubbard. Look at the Scientologists' videos of their speeches in their "celebrity center", everything there is gold-plated and shiny, it's all about greed. And the GURU is their object of worship. Not God. They don't have a fixed, unchangeable holy text, no Qur'an, no sunnah, it's all about their GURU and whatever he says goes, and he gets 1/4 of all their earnings for his PERSONAL use. If the Agha Khan is so "charitable" as his Ismaili cultists claim, he should sell all that fancy clothing and furniture, and give the money to the poor. He should help those suffering in Palestine, not try to be all buddy-buddy with Reagan and Bush, living in US Embassies and State Department-owned mansions.

He talks empty talk about peace and spirituality, but never has the beizehs to criticize international Zionism.