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In the Name of God بسم الله

Kissing a marja's hands

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Why do some marja's allow women / children (who are girls) to kiss their hands (when it is covered by an abaya)

Isn't the fact that they're not touching the hand (because of the abaya) merely technical?

What about the aspect of how the women are gaining proximity to the marja' by kissing their hands?

I've emailed various marja's about this but no one will reply.. do you think that a marja', by allowing women / young girls to do this, is lowering his status as being adil?

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Basically it's because those that do so enjoy receiving idolatrous attention .

Kadhim, I think that's a little extreme. I don't know if you have ever met a marja' to make that kind of judgment, but you can't just read people's minds and assume. In this case, it is generally the people who insist, the marja' does not ask for it. I think you should be more humble in how you approach men (all men lol) who have devoted their entire lives to religion and have reached the highest levels of scholarship.

are u sure? a woman can then place her arm on a man's shoulder providing he is wearing a shirt??

Not for a bad intention

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Yes i'm sure. As for the places that smiley is speaking of, umm fatwas that I've read regarding this did not specify any specific place as being halal/haram, but there is a second part to the fatwa, which is that for example if two people are wearing gloves and holding hands i believe that is not permissible because they can feel in detail the shape/size of each others hands.

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I met a tabatabai one time and everyone was tryin to kiss his hand.....he kept pulling it away from them which was hilarious because those geeky OOH LOOK AT ME I'M SO PIOUS I WANT TO KISS YOUR HAND kind of people got embarassed :lol:

I just shook his hand an gave him a Thug Hug an that's how he rolled....i also smelled his beard and it had a nice smell !!! Mashallah

Anyways I don't think a lot of Alims like people to kiss their hand , but if they kept pulling their hand away their arm would fall off, which is why they let people do it.......having said that I've seen people who actually wait for their hand to be kissed and they're not marjas or anything

they is proper wastemans ...... I didn't give them the satisfaction of having these holy so solid shia lips touch their hands! They didn't deserve it

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A specific ruling has been provided by an expert in fiqh. I dont see the purpose of further discussion.

The ruling particularly says hand. So a clarification would be appreciated.

Edited by SpIzo
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Guest Peace

^^ yeah and maybe its different for marja's I dont know - and maybe its different for elderly people. I dont mean that as a criticism I think I have read somewhere that in certain cases an elderly woman doesnt have to wear hijab?? Pls add to this cause I cant remember the proper ruling. And Im sorry Logic but I thought your point was unecessary - I think touching a guy you work with say is a different situation even if the ruling still applies - we all know in fiqh the answer depends on the question posed.

Edited by Peace
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(bismillah)

For those interested in hadithes:

Muhammad b. Ya`qub (in al-Kafi) from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Abu Ayyub al-Kharraz (alt. al-Khazzaz) from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah (as). He said: I said to him: Does the man shake the hand of the woman who is not mahram? So he said: No, except from behind a (piece of) clothing.

And from a group of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Uthman b. `Isa from Sama`a b. Mihran. He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah (as) about the shaking of the hands of a man and a woman. He said: It is not allowed for the man to shake the hand of the woman except the woman whom he is forbidden to marry her, a sister or a daughter or a paternal aunt or a maternal aunt of the daughter of a sister (niece) or like it. As to the woman whom he is allowed to marry her, then he is not to shake her hand except from behind a (piece of) clothing and he is not to feel her palm.

(Taken from www.*******.org, thanks to bro MacIsaac for the translations and all).

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a woman can then place her arm on a man's shoulder providing he is wearing a shirt??

Why would a woman in her total sanity place her arms on a namehrams shoulders :blink: yukh! :sick:

i think following a marja is more important than kissing and touching.

Edited by Fida wal muqawamah
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Kadhim, I think that's a little extreme. I don't know if you have ever met a marja' to make that kind of judgment, but you can't just read people's minds and assume. In this case, it is generally the people who insist, the marja' does not ask for it. I think you should be more humble in how you approach men (all men lol) who have devoted their entire lives to religion and have reached the highest levels of scholarship.

If the scholar is truly knowledgeable and devoted, then without blinking an eye, he or she will refuse it, forcefully if necessary. A real marja worth his salt will know this kind of adulation is wrong.

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If the scholar is truly knowledgeable and devoted, then without blinking an eye, he or she will refuse it, forcefully if necessary. A real marja worth his salt will know this kind of adulation is wrong.

This is a very bold statement to make, and I think quite insulting, as many maraja' allow it, not because they want it, but sometimes people insist on it. For instance I would instantly kiss Imam Khamenei or Ayatallah Sistani's hands if I was able to. Not because of some idolatrous or iconic thoughts, but because of what they have gone through and the respect that they deserve. Nabi Muhammad (pbuh) said even to look into the face of an alim is a form of ibada'.

I kiss my father's hands for crying out loud. It's a sign of respect and appreciation, not infatuation or "adulation". And Allah swt knows the marja's intentions as well as the other.

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi
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If the scholar is truly knowledgeable and devoted, then without blinking an eye, he or she will refuse it, forcefully if necessary. A real marja worth his salt will know this kind of adulation is wrong.

Kadhim, Islam teaches us to give 70 reasons (benefit of the doubt) before thinking/judging someone. You have no right to say what you have said. In fact most of these scholars as much as they hate their hands being kissed but they submit because people insist so much and because it makes people feel REALLY good to kiss scholars and hence sometimes out of kindness to these people marja allow that kiss . You have not opened their hearts to assume their intentions or to claim they are not worth their salt. You're losing your creditibility by stating so.

Maybe because he is sad and she is comforting him. Maybe because he has difficulty walking and she is helping him. There are plenty of reasons.

I do not think at all hugs to non mahram for whatever excuse is permissible. Your intention is pure but we never know the non mahram's intention. Plus hugs involve a lot of body friction, I never heard/read that's ever possible.

As for the touching a non mahram's hand through clothes, I think it's reasonable in cases like you mentioned, an elderly man trying to cross the street and can barely walk, you hold his clothed arm and help him crossing (and similar cases). Like, there is a huge difference between touching a covered non mahram's hand without any bad intention and hugging a non mahram no matter what the intentions are.

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Kadhim, Islam teaches us to give 70 reasons (benefit of the doubt) before thinking/judging someone. You have no right to say what you have said. In fact most of these scholars as much as they hate their hands being kissed but they submit because people insist so much and because it makes people feel REALLY good to kiss scholars and hence sometimes out of kindness to these people marja allow that kiss . You have not opened their hearts to assume their intentions or to claim they are not worth their salt. You're losing your creditibility by stating so.

I don't think that "people like doing this" is a valid excuse. I have heard anecdotes of major scholars making a point of giving a lesson to people by refusing such extravagant attention. I don't know why all can't do the same. Ithink scholars know that it is wrong for people to give this sort of attention, and have a responsibility to communicate this to people by humbly refusing. As for credibility, I'm not the one letting people kiss my hand like some sort of royalty.

Edited by kadhim
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That "people like doing this" is not an excuse. I have heard anecdotes of major scholars making a point of giving a lesson to people by refusing such extravagant attention. Scholars know that it is wrong for people to give this sort of attention, and have a responsibility to communicate this to people by humbly refusing. It's black and white. As for credibility, I'm not the one letting people kiss my hand like some sort of royalty.

Brother, it is not white and black because there is no fatwa saying it is haram and because we humans cannot assume the marja's intentions.

Let me tell you something, one day I was at the mosque and a little female Sayed girl, she was about 4 years old (she's a daughter of a scholar), whom I use to teach Arabic and Quran sometimes, came to me hugged me tight and tried kissing my hand, obviously I refused and took away my hand, she started begging me, I still refused and I felt embarrassed that a Prophet's descendant wants to kiss my hand, she then started to cry and was really hurt thinking that I was being too mean not granting her her wish. In this case, and God knows my intentions, if I let her kiss my hand, would I be not worth my salt? Arrogant? Etc Etc? ...As much as I explained to her, she was still extremelty hurt and she kept saying "I love you and all I want is to kiss your pretty hand" and her gorgeous eyes were full of tears....Tell me what's your stand?...

For me, it's the same for people who would die to kiss a marja's hand, he's letting them because it will make them so happy that's all.

Also, are our mothers not worth their salt if they let us kiss their hands out of love, before we go to sleep?...Please think about the whole thing again and try to give the benefit of the doubt to others before judging their worth.

Edited by Calm
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Also, are our mothers not worth their salt if they let us kiss their hands out of love, before we go to sleep?...Please think about the whole thing again and try to give the benefit of the doubt to others before judging their worth.

Exactly, I kiss my mother's and father's hands out of love and respect, not because they are some "royalty" or think they're high and mighty. Are they also not worth their salt? That's an odious thing to say.

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Also, are our mothers not worth their salt if they let us kiss their hands out of love, before we go to sleep?...Please think about the whole thing again and try to give the benefit of the doubt to others before judging their worth.

Dishonest distraction uttely irrelevant to the point at hand.

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Dishonest distraction uttely irrelevant to the point at hand.

*Smilling*

Kadhim are you serious or just joking? Now, I'm accused of dishonesty ? And you think my point is irrevelant?

No further arguments from me, I provided you with enough answers, I thought you'd think it through and maybe change your mind about those scholars, nonetheless I have nothing further to add. You are free to think whatever you want but remember remember the 10th of July 'Calm' told you that you will be asked by God on the judgement day for accusing these scholars .

Off topic note: 5-6 years ago, people on SC were more open to opposing opinions.

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*Smilling*

Kadhim are you serious or just joking? Now, I'm accused of dishonesty ? And you think my point is irrevelant?

I think it's rather obvious that the two situations are completely different. A scholar is not your mother, and the motivations for a person to ingratiate himself to a scholar in such a way are totally different from the reasons a person shows affection to his mother. There are also a tonne of alternative ways to show due respect without kissing hands on bended knee like you're a Catholic meeting the Pope or a subject meeting a king. I find it disturbing that I have to explicitly explain this to an adult. Whether it's dishonesty for rhetoric's sake or inability to distinguish a valid point from invalid, I don't know. Maybe we'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter.

No further arguments from me, I provided you with enough answers, I thought you'd think it through and maybe change your mind about those scholars, nonetheless I have nothing further to add. You are free to think whatever you want but remember remember the 10th of July 'Calm' told you that you will be asked by God on the judgement day for accusing these scholars .

I look forward to my reward for standing up for principle and opposing excessive behavior. I pray for forgiveness for that unfortunate minority of scholars who indulge these excessive displays when they know better. May they find the strength to stand for the principles they themselves preach.

Off topic note: 5-6 years ago, people on SC were more open to opposing opinions.

I've been active here for 6 years and can confidently characterize your observation as baseless. 6 years ago I would have had trouble expressing my opinions on this matter.

Edited by kadhim
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Kadhim, Im very curious to know (after the statement you made) who your marja' is. He may be one of the ones who allows people to kiss his hands, however much he protests.

What bothers me is how you sum up all of their work and dedication through one act, and refute them as being not worth their salt. It's a very heavy sentence to state.

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Kadhim, Im very curious to know (after the statement you made) who your marja' is. He may be one of the ones who allows people to kiss his hands, however much he protests.

N.O.Y.B.

What bothers me is how you sum up all of their work and dedication through one act, and refute them as being not worth their salt. It's a very heavy sentence to state.

On the contrary; it's a very easy judgement to make. If a person is to lead others, he must lead himself first. The flip side of this group being given so much respect generally is that they have to earn it and never stop earning it, and that entails being held to a higher standard.

Anyway. I have of course been exaggerating a bit for emphasis - but not by much. This sort of behavior by some scholars really does not impress me in the least. I am bothered that so many people are unbothered about this. I don't know if such indulgences void everything positive one has done, but I do know that the higher you rise, the higher the standard to which you are held, and the easier it is to fall by an act of ego. We all know of the bright accomplished shining one who fell from Grace from highest to lowest through a single act.

Edited by kadhim
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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Peace

Salam

I still dont understand if 'hand' is the only area we can touch while clothed? Im not askin to be facetious or rude but out of interest, what about a person's back, arm or thigh?? And I really dont mean this rudely lol.

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^ peace thank god its the hand only that can be touched ! so if someone grabs your one hand you can slap him with the other ..less damage

You dont want someone touching some unwanted parts lool , its just like shaking the hand out of respect so people go kissing it .

Like touching the feet is an extreme form of humility and lowering your position to someone like in a submissive form that i think would be haram no ? I mean we are equal

I mean if people were to grab or kiss or hold or even touch other unwanted areas of the body i really dont think it would be such a good idea! loool

I met a tabatabai one time and everyone was tryin to kiss his hand.....he kept pulling it away from them which was hilarious because those geeky OOH LOOK AT ME I'M SO PIOUS I WANT TO KISS YOUR HAND kind of people got embarassed :lol:

I just shook his hand an gave him a Thug Hug an that's how he rolled....i also smelled his beard and it had a nice smell !!! Mashallah

Anyways I don't think a lot of Alims like people to kiss their hand , but if they kept pulling their hand away their arm would fall off, which is why they let people do it.......having said that I've seen people who actually wait for their hand to be kissed and they're not marjas or anything

they is proper wastemans ...... I didn't give them the satisfaction of having these holy so solid shia lips touch their hands! They didn't deserve it

Brother Solid , :lol: funny well said and yet so true ...god bless ya thats actually the far best and most right answer /given explanetion

I hate it when gossiping aunties just pull their hand in your face.....lol ermmm the kiss the hand coz the ear aint listening attitude woahahah

Edited by Queen_Punk
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