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In the Name of God بسم الله

Young Iranian woman shot in Tehran June 20

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Let me explain it to you in points:

1 - The protesters post videos and updates (especially through twitter) EVERY DAY about their protests and their clashes with police/Basij

2 - They have NO REASON to wait for several days before posting a video of a woman shot to death.

3 - Hence this video was posted today.

But nevertheless you have the prerogative to be as big a fool publicly as you want. It is exceedingly obvious to all sensible persons that this video was posted today. If you're not interested in being one such person, that is your right.

Looks like you're trying really hard and not making any ground. This in turn is making you resort to ad hominem attacks. We're all adults here and can disagree on matters without having to resort to name calling.

1. - Yes they do. You don't have any objective evidence to correlate the date of posting the videos and the date the incident took place. Not for this event, nor for any other happenings that are posted by this user.

2 - Incorrect. You are not aware of any reason for them to wait several days; thus you assume there is no reason. Maybe their computer was broken. Maybe they don't own a computer. Maybe their internet was down.

3 - The first two points dont really point to this conclusion. Even if it flowed naturally, see two points above.

They made a wikipedia article on it. If i knew how to use it, I'd make a section on, "Alternate versions of Neda's death".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neda_(Iranian_protester)

Notice - unlike you, I am comfortable recognizing there are alternate versions of the story floating around. I wasn't there and can't really say which one is true. The funny thing is that most people out there claiming they can also can't. :)

Edited by Biryani
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Great article....

i enjoyed it

but wasnt the first shia shaheed, technically Fatima Al Zahra a.s ? or if you dont count dying from sadness a maytr, then Imam Ali a.s ?

other then that, i liked it...

I dont think Musavi would of done it though... As much as poeple want to label him as an american cronie, i do not think he or his supporters, whether it may be khatami or rafsanjani or whoever else, would go to such extremes, to gain the support of the so called great satan.... I think it was Black Ops plain and simple.....

I dont think she faked it, but then again, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist...

So i dont know !!!

But it was not baseej ill tell u that much !!!

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Notice - unlike you, I am comfortable recognizing there are alternate versions of the story floating around.

No - unlike me, you're an idiot. There are no "alternative versions", that is just some nonsense that thick-skulled fools like your fine self have come up with to delude themselves.

Here is the interview with the girl's boyfriend, Caspian Makan, where even he confirms that the event took place on Saturday, and not earlier like some lunatics have been claiming.

I wasn't there and can't really say which one is true.

Your inability to tell "which one is true" has nothing to do with your being there or not. You weren't even there on the day of the elections, but I'm sure you're not entertaining the idea of "alternate versions" of the elections on different dates floating around. No, your inability to tell "which one is true" is due to your profound and willing ignorance. There is enough evidence for even a fool who values the truth to see that this event happened on Saturday.

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I still think this incident happened on Saturday, and I do think that whoever did it should be brought to justice. I do think there needs to be more control and accountability for the Basij....

But, I do want to note how we should be careful in what we believe....

So the original story was:

Accompanying the video was:

"At 19:05 June 20th

Place: Karekar Ave., at the corner crossing Khosravi St. and Salehi st.

A young woman who was standing aside with her father watching the protests was shot by a basij More.. member hiding on the rooftop of a civilian house. He had clear shot at the girl and could not miss her. However, he aimed straight her heart. I am a doctor, so I rushed to try to save her. But the impact of the gunshot was so fierce that the bullet had blasted inside the victim's chest, and she died in less than 2 minutes.

The protests were going on about 1 kilometers away in the main street and some of the protesting crowd were running from tear gass used among them, towards Salehi St.

The film is shot by my friend who was standing beside me.

Please let the world know"

Now, apparently, the same doctor who rushed to her aid is telling a different story?

Dr Hejazi says he posted the video of Ms Soltan's death on the internet and images of her have become a rallying point for Iranian opposition supporters around the world.

...

Dr Hejazi said he first thought the gunshot had come from a rooftop.

But later he saw protesters grab an armed man on a motorcycle.

"People shouted 'we got him, we got him'. They disarmed him and took out his identity card which showed he was a Basij member. People were furious and he was shouting, 'I didn't want to kill her'.

"People didn't know what do to do with him so they let him go. But they took his identity card. There are people there who know who he is. Some people were also taking photos of him."

Question:

If he first thought that it was from a rooftop, but then immediately noted people catching the guy on the motocycle, then why did he still describe in his youtube posting that it was from a basiji on the rooftop?

- Did the killing happen, he went home posted it on youtube, and then went back to street and saw people surrounding basij on motorcycle?

- Where are the pictures of this alleged basiji? Obviously the protesters havent hesitated to post pictures and videos of everything that supports their cause (which is also why i believe it happened on Saturday)...but then why not in this case?

Edited by malangbaba
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Question:

If he first thought that it was from a rooftop, but then immediately noted people catching the guy on the motocycle, then why did he still describe in his youtube posting that it was from a basiji on the rooftop?

- Did the killing happen, he went home posted it on youtube, and then went back to street and saw people surrounding basij on motorcycle?

- Where are the pictures of this alleged basiji? Obviously the protesters havent hesitated to post pictures and videos of everything that supports their cause (which is also why i believe it happened on Saturday)...but then why not in this case?

Good questions.. any response..

With the kind of propaganda thats going on.. even if we concentrate on Western media reports we will find a lot of inherent contradictions.. there is a push to throw all kind of news item which would make Iran look like a repressive regime.. with as many variation available as possible..

Someone said very aptly in another thread, One positive outcome of this election has been -- Western Media getting Exposed very badly..

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Good questions.. any response..

With the kind of propaganda thats going on.. even if we concentrate on Western media reports we will find a lot of inherent contradictions.. there is a push to throw all kind of news item which would make Iran look like a repressive regime.. with as many variation available as possible..

Someone said very aptly in another thread, One positive outcome of this election has been -- Western Media getting Exposed very badly..

In this case, its not even the western media propagating the stories. Its the Iranian protesters who are spreading the stories, and the Western media then picking them up and passing them off as truth, either without verifying or intentionally without verifying....And whatever one may think of the protesters (I support Ahmedinejad, but I also support their right to peacefully protest) they are hurting their own cause by spreading lies....

like yesterday, there were reports from Iranians that there was a massacre at Baharestan Square, including people being axed, thrown off bridges and shot en masse....

here are some counters:

No one is calling the tragedy of Neda, the young woman gunned down in a protest last week, a hoax; but the story of yesterday’s “Baharestan Massacre,” in which people were reportedly “shot like animals,” and axed to death in the street, seems questionable.

...

Update | 8:34 a.m. An Iranian-American reader of The Lede, who witnessed some of Wednesday’s opposition rally, wrote this morning in an e-mail message from Tehran that he has doubts about the account of yesterday’s events given to CNN in a telephone interview on Wednesday. According to our reader:

When I was over there at the quasi-rally I realized that the repression of protests have now mostly devolved into the standard Irish cop swinging his baton rythmically and saying “nothing to see here folks.” That’s exactly what I saw. This stuff about shooting, tear gas, and even defenestration from a bridge that CNN reported … seems unlikely. Of course it could have happened but I don’t see the logic in it. These cops are tired — you can tell, and they’re not Lebanese either.

...

CNN: Fake reporting or duped by caller?

...

Indeed there are some horrific things going on within Iran, but there seems to be an effort by the protest movement to inflate and exaggerate, and a ready willingness by the Western media to accept and broadcast it as truth without verifying...or reporting it anyway with the disclaimer that its "unverified"...

Edited by malangbaba
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Sophistry yet again.

The blood of the girl is on the hands of those who killed her.

But who did kill her?

Anyway, Michael Jackson has just died....that will upset more Iranians.

I bet you IRIB gives his death a lot of coverage to distract attention.

Edited by Moraqeb ol Tariqat
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No - unlike me, you're an idiot. There are no "alternative versions", that is just some nonsense that thick-skulled fools like your fine self have come up with to delude themselves.

There there little one. When we disagree on things, we are able to discuss them without resorting to childish name calling. Calling me an "idiot" or a "thick-skulled fool" or even "delusional" does not discredit my argument. If anything - it discredits you for not being knowledgeable of the basics of logic.

Let me introduce you to a logical fallacy called ad hominem. This happens when a person attacks the person instead of the person's argument.

Person A makes claim X.

Person B makes an attack on person A.

Therefore A's claim is false.

I'm person A in this situation and you're person B. You can read much more about this logical fallacy that you are falling victim to here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

Thanks,

Bir

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The Iranians in the streets, and poor pretty Neda, are being sacrificed by heartless US strategists. I doubt even an errant Iranian bullet can match the American military for cruelty.

I agree....Basij are not "snipers".....they cannot shoot from a distance with pinpoint accuracy.

Basij are amateurs, nor professional soldiers: I don't see how they any of them could have killed Neda.

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Calling me an "idiot" or a "thick-skulled fool" or even "delusional" does not discredit my argument.

Correct. Except that you don't even have an argument that I'm supposed to "discredit" in the first place. But you think you do because you're delusional and a thick-skulled fool.

The fact remains that Neda was shot and killed on

, not earlier like some lunatics here have been arguing. That you and other posters here are too delusional and thick-skulled to accept that fact does not provide a shred of validity to your "arguments".
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CIA involved in Neda's shooting?

Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:54:00 GMT

The US may have been behind the killing of Neda Agha-Soltan, the 26-year-old Iranian woman who was shot to death in Tehran's post election protest.

"This death of Neda is very suspicious," Iran's Ambassador to Mexico, Mohammad Hassan Ghadiri said. "My question is how is it that this Miss Neda is shot from behind, gets shot in front of several cameras, and is shot in an area where no significant demonstration was being held?" CNN reported on Friday.

He suggested that the CIA or another intelligence service may have been responsible.

"Well, if the CIA wants to kill some people and attribute that to the government elements, then choosing women is an appropriate choice, because the death of a woman draws more sympathy," Ghadiri told CNN.

Ghadiri said that the bullet that was found in her head was not a type that was used in Iran.

"These are the methods that terrorists, the CIA and spy agencies employ," he said. "Naturally, they would like to see blood spilled in these demonstrations, so that they can use it against the Islamic Republic of Iran. This is one of the common methods that the CIA employs in various countries."

But, he added, "I am not saying that now the CIA has done this. There are different groups. It could be the [work of another] intelligence service; it could be the CIA; it could be the terrorists. Anyway, there are people who employ these types of methods."

Asked about his government's imposition of restrictions on reporting by international journalists, Ghadiri blamed the reporters themselves.

"Some of the reporters and mass media do not reflect the truth," he said.

For example, he said that international news organizations have lavished coverage on demonstrations by supporters of Mir Hossein Moussavi, who lost to the incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

He continued that those same news organizations have not shown "many, many demonstrations in favor of the winner," he said.

Ghadiri went on to say that members of the international news media have failed to report on people setting banks and buses on fire or attacking other people. "The only things they show are the reactions of the police," he said.

In response, CIA spokesman George Little denied the allegations.

SG/SME

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CIA involved in Neda's shooting?

Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:54:00 GMT

The US may have been behind the killing of Neda Agha-Soltan, the 26-year-old Iranian woman who was shot to death in Tehran's post election protest.

"This death of Neda is very suspicious," Iran's Ambassador to Mexico, Mohammad Hassan Ghadiri said. "My question is how is it that this Miss Neda is shot from behind, gets shot in front of several cameras, and is shot in an area where no significant demonstration was being held?" CNN reported on Friday.

He suggested that the CIA or another intelligence service may have been responsible.

Yes, I am suspicious about the "doctor" who tried to save her, Mr Arash Hejazi. He is a UK-based publisher who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time next to Neda - he then left the country and conducts an interview with the BBC where he accuses an unidentified basiji as the murderer.

However, he admits that she was shot between the aorta and the lung with pinpoint accuracy. The basiji he claimed did it was apparently little more than a boy. But this required a professional marksman....a trained CIA killer.

Edited by Moraqeb ol Tariqat
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Yes, I am suspicious about the "doctor" who tried to save her, Mr Arash Hejazi. He is a UK-based publisher who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time next to Neda - he then left the country and conducts an interview with the BBC where he accuses an unidentified basiji as the murderer.

However, he admits that she was shot between the aorta and the lung with pinpoint accuracy. The basiji he claimed did it was apparently little more than a boy. But this required a professional marksman....a trained CIA killer.

It could have been a set up - she had been travelling recently and could have had contact with the CIA. And her fiance is from outside of Iran; the doctor operates outside of Iran. She could have volunteered for the role or was set up by fellow CIA operatives.

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Subhanallah

Are you people seriously suggesting she volunteered to be killed so that Iran could get a bad rep in media?

Its one thing to discuss suspicious circumstances around her death. Its another to ascribe unverifiable things to someone who has died. We will be accountable before Allah for everything we say and write.

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Subhanallah

Are you people seriously suggesting she volunteered to be killed so that Iran could get a bad rep in media?

Its one thing to discuss suspicious circumstances around her death. Its another to ascribe unverifiable things to someone who has died. We will be accountable before Allah for everything we say and write.

I agree there are lots of unverifiable things being said about her and the situation. I was just going along with the idea. She was hit with a precision hit, with military grade munition, someone with a camera caught it on tape and she looked directly into the camera. She looked very peaceful; she wasnt fighting. She met her fiance out of the country and they had been engaged for 2 months. Maybe he wasnt her fiance.

Somthing is very odd here. She wasnt near the major protest and did not have a weapon in her hand or was reported doing anything to provoke the police and security people. She was not large or intimidating either. Why would she be shot like that?

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Fyst, perhaps it is time that you develop a less confrontational and more amiable method of discourse; one that isn't grounded in asserting your intellectual prowess over others, partly by resorting to only responding when you can absolutely prove someone else wrong (or yourself right), and partly by abasing others with terms such as "fool", "idiot", and "thick-skulled". Perhaps it would be just as smart, and much more wise for you to engage in discourse that has context and substance; discourse that is qualitative in its intellectual value and representative of your thoughtfulness and whit; discourse that isn't limited to a quantitative exercise of scoring points on others by proving them wrong over matters that are almost entirely besides the point in the larger scheme of things.

You are a very bright individual, and I wish we could benefit from more of such contributions on your behalf in the future, if you would do us all the favor and apply yourself in a manner that is deserving of your intellect. We would be most indebted.

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some of the lies i have seen by Musawis group:

they put a video on youtube of an allegedly pregnant woman shot dead and the bullet went through the babies body.

1) The picture of the baby they put is a picture that i have seen maybe 10 years ago in a Palestinian or south Lebanon event.

2) The the main speaker for musawi in London was interview by ABC showing the leaked document that musawi won the election and ABC presented that as truth and kept a copy of the document. even though Robert Fisk said that its impossible for nejad with all the support that he has to get such low votes and the document was discredited by the enemies of Nejad before his friends.

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some of the lies i have seen by Musawis group:

they put a video on youtube of an allegedly pregnant woman shot dead and the bullet went through the babies body.

1) The picture of the baby they put is a picture that i have seen maybe 10 years ago in a Palestinian or south Lebanon event.

I remembered that when the US wanted to liberate Kuwait through military force, they created a false pretext, that Iraqi soldiers killed babies in incubators. Then the US and the world public opinions changed tremendously to support the liberation of Kuwait through military forces.

Is was proven two months after the Iraqi army was defeated that the "killing of babies in the incubator" was a lie, created by US intelligent through a special contractor for 25 mil dollars (paid by Kuwaiti government). It was documented and shown in the TV through "60- minutes" program.

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Only time Basij shot someone during the protests was when the siege happened.

how do you know this? besides can you tell us exactly what streets surround the basij building that was set alight and demonstrated outside of? the streets near where Agha-Soltani was found fatally wounded have been given. The scene you talk of is the only one (to my knowledge) which almost undeniably shows basijis shooting (because it is atop their building - so one would assume that they are basijis), but there are plenty of other videos showing men shooting from higher floors in a building or even from the tops of buildings. Are you denying that these occured at all? or that these men are baseejis?

one of these videos was posted at the very beginning of this thread. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=750_1245508619

The empathy for these protesters (they're actually rioters) is appalling. No citizen burns, vandalizes and causes chaos. no normal citizen does any destruction because their choice for president lost by a 2 to 1 margin. They belong in jail and more.

there is video of men dressed as basij/riot police damaging property. do they also belong in jail?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diJu5xWNs04

and ofcourse of hitting women

whether you believe in the baseej or police as a body of admirable people or not, you really have to accept the fact that some of them have behaved in a shameful manner just as some protesters may have.

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(2) beating women is not the way of ali (as)

(1) there was no one in the car

were ansar hezbollah ever dealt with? what does "detached from government intervention" mean?

you didnt answer my question about hte surrounding streets. someone with your level of knowledge on iran should surely know where it was.

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(1) No need to worry about what is the way of ali we will worry about that as Ali (as) also had his own moral police and you would act equally as hateful how this was enforced and the evil was forbidden back then. We are the iranians and we will do it our way no need for you to meddle in our affairs.

ablah

fekr mikoni to tanha irani hasti?

bring forth your proof that Imam Ali (as) had his own moral police who acted in a violent fashion towards women. You clearly have no knowledge of the character of Imam Ali (as) or how he ruled.

Perhaps you have Imam Ali mixed up with the first two khalifs.

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ablah

fekr mikoni to tanha irani hasti?

bring forth your proof that Imam Ali (as) had his own moral police who acted in a violent fashion towards women. You clearly have no knowledge of the character of Imam Ali (as) or how he ruled.

Perhaps you have Imam Ali mixed up with the first two khalifs.

You are banging your head against the wall, love. Just take care.

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If i am talking of things bigger than myself, then you are not qualified to talk at all. You have not provided proof that Imam Ali (as) or the prophet (pbuh) or anyone of the masoomeen condoned violence towards women.

I dont know you, so please dont presume any familiarity with me. And the fact that you state with surity as to my nationality and what you have said thus far, only tells me that you cannot be a person of sound mind.

May God protect people from you and the likes of you.

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Please go through.....

CIA involved in Neda's shooting?

Iran Riots: Neda Death Footage – Poster Child For A Million More Tragedies?

Yes, the Zionists are exploiting Neda's death to the full. Even if a dog or a cat is killed in Tehran, let alone a 26 year old woman, they will blame it on the baseej.

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I don't know whats wrong with you and your feminist tone, but violence is condoned against men AND women if they oppose the state, i suggest you look into Siffin who betrayed the state under Muslim control.

I smell Wahhabism, and Oh boy is it rotten!

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I smell Wahhabism, and Oh boy is it rotten!

He means if they go to war against the Islamic state: This is HARIB ZIDDE HIZB Allah.

5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land or imprisonment: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter, 34 unless they repent before you overpower them: in that case bear in mind that God is forgiving and merciful.
Edited by Moraqeb ol Tariqat
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I don't know whats wrong with you and your feminist tone, but violence is condoned against men AND women if they oppose the state, i suggest you look into Siffin who betrayed the state under Muslim control.

make up your mind. either im a charlatan or im not. a charlatan does not have the ability to look into anything, particularly of a religious nature, for themselves, they only pretend to know religion. i am afterall a fake right? so it is your duty as the more upstanding, iranian, shia to show me the proof that violence by soldiers is allowed, condoned and lauded, against women who oppose the state.

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furthermore, you still have not given the street names which surround the basij building famously known to have been attacked by demonstrators who were shot with live ammunition.

You haven't given the name(s) of who shot the girl, if she was purposefully targeted or proof that it was Basiji & government policy to violently attack civilians. It's likely even if the names of the streets were provided, it won't have any bearing on your perspective of the current political climate in your country. Let's assume it wasn't a Basiji building, then what was it? It was clearly being attacked, for what reason was it attacked? How about you provide the name of the street, then you can establish whether or not it was a Basiji building. At the end of the day it was a Government aligned building, otherwise it simply wouldn't have been attacked, Basiji or otherwise is of little significance.

Secondly, the girl wasn't the only victim here, young Basiji boys were also murdered, yet I believe it's not Mousawi's policy to violently attack them. The fact is that before the elections, Ahmadenejad was a clear favourite to win the elections, and after the elections he was the clear winner. It doesn't give a bunch of kids the right to violently tear up the streets of Tehran if they're unhappy that the results didn't go their way, otherwise there will be chaos created by the losers after each and every election.

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